There's already Brother, and fingers-crossed they will keep doing good job.
Please don't get distracted, Framework. What you're trying to do is challenging enough already.
Notably people will keep saying in every thread about HP that Brother exists, and I don't think Brother is dominating the market. At the end of the day if a ignorant customers keep buying garbage products, it's hard to help.
Brother is enshittifying. They locked out non-OEM cartridges a year and change ago. Their hardware is good (for now), but their software practices are already to the point where I would instantly buy a Framework option and sell my current brother printer.
Even though it is now more than a year since Brother did this, the vast majority of the comments about them are overwhelmingly positive, despite cartridge antics being the majority of the reason why people hate HP printers and others. I wonder how long it will take for their current status to fully penetrate the good will they built up from years of being the not-shitty option.
I think it will take a while for people to notice because Brother printers last so long, so most of the people praising them are using still printers they bought many years ago.
Yeah, I have an extremely sour taste in my mouth about them because their firmware update (which I didn't approve), disabled my non-OEM cartidge when it was only partway through.
Unfortunately, from an objective standpoint, I'm not sure there is anyone better to recommend. At least we can say that Brothers hardware is good and that, for the most part, it just works when trying to print. I've vertainly never had any issues with it _other_ than them forcing me to swap the DRM chip from my empty starter cartridge into my replacement non-OEM one (and, the fact that this is possible is a sort of half-mark in their favor? I guess?)
It's a shitty situation where I'd rather buy from a company that didn't do this but the entire product segment is so bad that I don't think it exists.
Does this only apply to inkjet printers? I have noticed a number of firmware updates to my Brother black & white laser printer in the past year. I figured that those had to do with the integrated Internet services.
I recently bought a genuine Brother replacement toner cartridge, but that was locked out from my printer because the model number was off by one character or something. $65 lost, oops. There appears to be just a plastic tab on the cartridge keying it to the other model. I am not sure that I want to attempt pouring the toner into a compatible cartridge that I already have.
I don't think Brother has added drm in firmware updates like some other companies have (as far as I know) but all of their new laser printers have drm chips in the toner cartridges, so it's not just their inkjet printers.
My brother laser worked great for years. Then I decided to save money and get generic toner. A week later my brother printer bricked itself. It won’t even turn on. Probably a coincidence, but still makes me angry.
I don't know if this is part of some enshittifying or not, but at first my Brother MFC inkjet (purchased 2021) just worked. But then sometime last year I stopped being able to print from iOS or Android mobile devices and also started having to remove the drivers and reinstall them over and over on both Linux and Windows (and even sometimes macOS). My printer has has a fixed IP from the beginning, and I don't know what is changing, but it is really peaving me. I also was never able to get it scan to a SMB server either. At this point I starting to think of going with an Epson ecotank inkjet as my understanding is those don't enforce getting Epson ink. In the old days a printer might have a part break or wear out, but I never used to run into weird seemingly software problems after the first 2 years of use like I did with this and the Samsung before it.
Framework should buy Brother. Or the other way around. Imagine a Framework sewing machine? Or an CNC-embroidery machine with a 3d printing attachment? Or a printer you can repair and fill with ink yourself? Or a printer where you get to choose a Centronics port and install it yourself?
On the topic of new framework products, would be cool to see their take on a rackmount server. Instead of usb-c modules they would be front facing pcie 5.0 modules with all kinds of Ethernet, infiniband, DPU, GPU, NVME and IPMI options
I recently wondered if you could make a blade server chassis out of old laptop motherboards this way. You could have an Ethernet switch in the backplane that is exposed to each slot as a USB Ethernet dongle.
Why are there not a bunch of cheap no-name printers from overseas companies happy to just make the sale without the subscription? Are they really hard to make? Is there not the right ecosystem of components? Is there somehow more enforceable IP around printers than around other consumer electronics?
It's weird to me that I can get a cheap smart watch/drone/noise cancelling heaphones/android phone or tablet/compact projector from companies I've never heard of, and who aren't trying to get me on a monthly subscription -- but not a printer.
decades ago a friend of mine was running out of ink on his printer. he then discovered that buying a new printer with ink was cheaper than buying ink for the old printer.
this practice should be made illegal through environment protection laws
true, my friend may as well have been duped by exactly that. or it was a special sale. it's just a memory of an experience that is forever tied to this topic.
At this point, people realize this and realize what a ripoff these subscriptions are and they would leap at the chance to buy a printer that let them buy their ink or toner from anyone.
Yes, but surely there's a market for that. I would very strongly prefer to pay what the printer really costs in exchange for not getting soaked on the consumables.
Those do exist. I've currently got a canon ink tank model, and BOY is the ink affordable when compared to cartridges. It's actually competitive with laser printers. Expensive printer though.
I'm afraid that making precise mechanical parts is not very cheap, and the current crop of printers is mostly already being produced on these "overseas" factories (Chinese, I suppose).
I often ask myself the same. I think one of the main reasons could be the fact that, differently from most of the devices you mentioned, a printer is not standalone device that needs firmware to work properly on a plethora of generations of OSs. Add the fact that afaik there's no universal cartridge standard, so to bring value to the table they should distribute their own cartridges globally...
> Add the fact that afaik there's no universal cartridge standard, so to bring value to the table they should distribute their own cartridges globally...
I would have hoped for such a company to target compatibility with the existing generic printer cartridges that HP is working so hard to not accept.
Printer driver support is a pain, toner/ink chemistry is non-trivial, and it’s hard to beat Brother. Anyone who cares about printer costs can drop a couple hundred bucks and not think about it again for a decade.
I really want Framework to make a printer, actually it doesn't have to be Framework but a company with a similar model and goals would be great. The printer industry needs a swift smack upside the head. Its totally awful. Yes I love my Brother, but I'm keeping my eyes open for a good OkiData linefeed printer. Those things are tanks and their ink lasts forever.
Actually if Framework just reused some white-label printing engine, with known characteristics, spare parts, and cartridges, that could already be great. It would mean no cartridge shenanigans, and likely better and open firmware. And yes, internal USB ports for modular network interfaces and such :)
I'm afraid it's going to be pretty expensive though. Many printers are essentially subsidized by purchases of toner and ink.
Isn't pretty much all viable printer technology encumbered by evergreen patents? My understanding was that printer companies think they're enforcing patents with DRM, which is why they tried so hard to make refilling ink cartridges a DMCA 1201 violation.
I'm not from Framework, but can you be more specific? And maybe you don't need a better TV but just a better TV screen that can be connected to a computer?
Good picture quality & resolution (e.g. LG panel), no (or replaceable) smart features, no forced ads / tracking, fast startup, wide variety of inputs would be bonus though the usual options are fine.
I'm less imaginative around would-be-cool features. If there was an integrated, hackable linux computer you could do many more things like photo frame, weather, (privacy respecting) smart home controls, media server, etc.
> no (or replaceable) smart features, no forced ads / tracking, fast startup
I have a TV that takes a few seconds to boot to a screen that says I need to agree to some demands in order to see advertisements. Fortunately, there has yet to be a software update that's so heavy-handed that I can't use the built-in chromecast without agreeing to their demands.
I am really rather glad it was a gift so I won't feel bad trashing it when the time comes. It makes me appreciate how nice a dumb TV is when it's connected to a smart computer and also how important it is to provide the computer myself.
I just plug my TV into a media PC with a TV tuner card. I don't let the TV connect to my network, and I treat it as a dumb display. No clue how repairable it is (almost certainly not at all), but it's lasted more than five years so far and I'm happy with it as is.
I agree that the smart features are bad, but it's at least still easy to just avoid them. Although I'll admit to not having a great solution to input/control. I currently just use a wireless mouse and keyboard, but that's less than optimal in a living room situation.
I don’t think they sell them in North America though.
It’s all the things you want: has no ads anywhere, turns on in a couple seconds from standby, has a great image (they say it’s used in Hollywood for color grading or something), the “smart” is very light if you care to use it (I don’t and it doesn’t get in the way), is fully supported in home assistant… It’s basically a damn good screen to show whatever I want to see. It’s the polar opposite of the dumpster fire that Samsung TVs are for example.
We had a HP Printer for a long time and it was a nightmare. After it broke down, i noticed that Epson was the first company to make a printer with ink tanks, while the others where still arguing that its not possible because the ink would dry out. I figured this must be the least evil printer company then. It's been working fine for now. Also no need to buy third party ink because the original is reasonably priced. By now the others also offer printers with tanks.
I can't speak for the longer-term reliability, but we have an Epson Ecotank which you literally fill with ink from a bottle (no cartridges). It was more expensive than other Inkjet printers (since they don't sell them at a loss and profit from cartridges), but ours has been humming along for two or three years. We got an extra set of CMYK bottles, but we haven't had to refill it yet (fairly large reservoirs).
I would be interested in a printer that doesn't do tracking dots[1] and that supports reasonable ink refills. And it would be really cool if I could just take it apart Framework-style to fix any issues that occur.
Can someone summarize the Framework value proposition? Is it for tinkerers, or people who can't afford to buy an entirely new laptop every three years?
It's for people who rely heavily on their computer. If something is broken, you want it to be fixed asap. The best way to achieve this is if you can DIY. It's also a good long-term investment, because you can upgrade the hardware.
> or people who can't afford to buy an entirely new laptop every three years?
A laptop should really be useful for longer than 3 years.
I noticed in a lot of the reviews for the 16 that dropped yesterday. They made a point that the Framework is generally more expensive for similar performance than competitors, which is true!
But in the 13, upgrading to a new mainboard with a new CPU was ~half the cost of buying fresh.
So, if in 3-5 years when the user decides they need an upgrade, they don't _need_ to buy an entire laptop, just a new mainboard. It seems to me that even a single upgrade cycle like this brings the cost at _least_ to parity, if not cheaper than competitors.
this. i was very close to consider buying a a laptop with a soldered SSD because low weight is a critical feature for me , but then i realized that a similar model with replaceable SSD almost had the same low weight, and so i chose that, and i am glad i did. only a year later i needed to replace the SSD with one twice as large. worse. the old SSD also showed signs of failing for unknown reasons.
warranty would probably have covered it, but getting that would have been a hassle and without a working laptop until it was fixed, and i needed more space anyways. i'd rather have warranty on individual components that are expensive (like the motherboard) and spend some money to replace smaller parts than waiting for a fix.
If I need a laptop ASAP, I would buy a MacBook Pro and use Time Machine to back it up continuously. Then I would pick up a used MacBook Air for $700 to keep as a spare. If you can’t afford to be without a laptop for a few days, you can afford that expenditure, most likely.
Or, if one wishes to self insure, maintain only one laptop and buy another one at the Apple Store the same day yours breaks. Sell the old one back to Apple once it is repaired. Slightly more expensive, but you can defer the cost until the event.
If your strategy is working for you then that's great. I do wonder why you need a new computer every 3 years, but I don't know your personal circumstances. The things you do might actually make perfect sense.
But for me personally, you lost me at "Macbook": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ
Then again, life is often about tradeoffs. For me, Framework offers the best tradeoff.
Or people who care enough about the environment not to want to 1) inflict the cost of making a new laptop and 2) produce the ewaste of disposing of their old laptop every three years.
I'd pay $500 for a black-and-white laser printer that I owned, was subscription-free, and was cheap and easy to service. I don't know where this falls in production costs, though.
I'd prefer it to have an integrated scanner as well, but I'd also be on board to pay that much, and if it didn't have the scanner, I could just get a stand alone one I suppose.
If anyone had told me in the 80s that Hewlett Packard, the coolest place for an engineer to work, would turn into Gillette, I would not have believed it.
That said, I don't think building a "better" unprofitable, archaic device is good business, Framework.
The situation with monochrome laser printers is not too bad. People keep saying Brother (and I have one myself) but HP laserjets from the 1990s are still viable and built like tanks. Color is different and I don't know a good answer.
Ink jets inherently suck for low volume users because the ink dries out. Dot matrix impact still exists but is heavy duty now. The cheap home and compact models are gone. Also, afaict, no more small thermal printers except for receipt printers. But I might look around more.
The parallels of the printer industry and the smart TV industry are striking to me.
The cost of a consumer smart TV has moved towards being subsidized by selling ads and watch history to media companies. Most consumers expect their flat screen high resolution 80" TV to cost less than $1000; there's even some choices in the $400-500 range now. Samsung (et al) need the recurring ad revenue (they say) to keep the lights on and provide continued products. They rightfully believe the market won't exist for the sustainable cost of the TV set, maybe in the multiple thousand price range, without the ad/viewership revenue.
I think HP is facing this same problem. People won't buy a multiple thousands dollar printer. The market has driven the price down, such that HP needs to capture recurring revenue from its consumers. Without it, the retail price of printers would end up being much higher, likely out of reach for common consumers.
I think the blame for this lies more with consumers than with manufacturers. I'm not stump speeching for HP; if anything, they have been my bane from previous days of being a local system administrator maintaining a fleet of printers for an engineering firm. And yes, corporate greed, perceived shareholder needs, and CxO salaries have led to these conditions too.
Ultimately I just wish there were some good market choices here for normal consumers. I don't want to buy the "business" version of a printer anymore than I want to buy the business version of a smart TV display. But I wish there was a model where we didn't have to shell out for expensive HP toner just to have a decent printer on a subscription model.
Like it or not, I think the subscription model is only in the beginning phases. You're not going to own anything in the future.
There doesn't seem to be any evidence for this though. People are now having to use (more expensive) workarounds in order to have a TV that doesn't monetise them.
eg large monitor + dedicated tv appliance / pc, using a commercial display, etc.
94 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 152 ms ] threadPlease don't get distracted, Framework. What you're trying to do is challenging enough already.
Notably people will keep saying in every thread about HP that Brother exists, and I don't think Brother is dominating the market. At the end of the day if a ignorant customers keep buying garbage products, it's hard to help.
However if they are really turning HP I could never recommend with a good conscious.
This is conflicting.
Unfortunately, from an objective standpoint, I'm not sure there is anyone better to recommend. At least we can say that Brothers hardware is good and that, for the most part, it just works when trying to print. I've vertainly never had any issues with it _other_ than them forcing me to swap the DRM chip from my empty starter cartridge into my replacement non-OEM one (and, the fact that this is possible is a sort of half-mark in their favor? I guess?)
It's a shitty situation where I'd rather buy from a company that didn't do this but the entire product segment is so bad that I don't think it exists.
Solutions offered online are to use a knife to extract the chip from a genuine cartridge to stick on the new one.
Here's a youtube video showing the process:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdj-yxfHh4I
I recently bought a genuine Brother replacement toner cartridge, but that was locked out from my printer because the model number was off by one character or something. $65 lost, oops. There appears to be just a plastic tab on the cartridge keying it to the other model. I am not sure that I want to attempt pouring the toner into a compatible cartridge that I already have.
Though really i can't believe it hasn't improved drastically.
I don't think we'll ever get rid of that but I am sure we can achieve sustainability with paper usage.
1: https://www.homecomputermuseum.nl/wp-content/uploads/2021/04...
The mind boggles at the possibilities.
It's weird to me that I can get a cheap smart watch/drone/noise cancelling heaphones/android phone or tablet/compact projector from companies I've never heard of, and who aren't trying to get me on a monthly subscription -- but not a printer.
this practice should be made illegal through environment protection laws
But everything is misleading to make you spend more money, so who knows anymore.
I actually bought three of the same shitty Canon scanner/inkjet combos in a row when I ran out of ink.
Then I came to my senses and got a Brother laser.
I would have hoped for such a company to target compatibility with the existing generic printer cartridges that HP is working so hard to not accept.
Nah, a printer with PostScript and AirPrint will work on every OS.
They don't have to develop it, just put a stamp of approval on one that doesn't suck.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaserWriter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Apple_printers
I'm afraid it's going to be pretty expensive though. Many printers are essentially subsidized by purchases of toner and ink.
Good picture quality & resolution (e.g. LG panel), no (or replaceable) smart features, no forced ads / tracking, fast startup, wide variety of inputs would be bonus though the usual options are fine.
I'm less imaginative around would-be-cool features. If there was an integrated, hackable linux computer you could do many more things like photo frame, weather, (privacy respecting) smart home controls, media server, etc.
I have a TV that takes a few seconds to boot to a screen that says I need to agree to some demands in order to see advertisements. Fortunately, there has yet to be a software update that's so heavy-handed that I can't use the built-in chromecast without agreeing to their demands.
I am really rather glad it was a gift so I won't feel bad trashing it when the time comes. It makes me appreciate how nice a dumb TV is when it's connected to a smart computer and also how important it is to provide the computer myself.
I agree that the smart features are bad, but it's at least still easy to just avoid them. Although I'll admit to not having a great solution to input/control. I currently just use a wireless mouse and keyboard, but that's less than optimal in a living room situation.
I don’t think they sell them in North America though.
It’s all the things you want: has no ads anywhere, turns on in a couple seconds from standby, has a great image (they say it’s used in Hollywood for color grading or something), the “smart” is very light if you care to use it (I don’t and it doesn’t get in the way), is fully supported in home assistant… It’s basically a damn good screen to show whatever I want to see. It’s the polar opposite of the dumpster fire that Samsung TVs are for example.
[1] https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-d...
> or people who can't afford to buy an entirely new laptop every three years?
A laptop should really be useful for longer than 3 years.
I noticed in a lot of the reviews for the 16 that dropped yesterday. They made a point that the Framework is generally more expensive for similar performance than competitors, which is true!
But in the 13, upgrading to a new mainboard with a new CPU was ~half the cost of buying fresh.
So, if in 3-5 years when the user decides they need an upgrade, they don't _need_ to buy an entire laptop, just a new mainboard. It seems to me that even a single upgrade cycle like this brings the cost at _least_ to parity, if not cheaper than competitors.
warranty would probably have covered it, but getting that would have been a hassle and without a working laptop until it was fixed, and i needed more space anyways. i'd rather have warranty on individual components that are expensive (like the motherboard) and spend some money to replace smaller parts than waiting for a fix.
Or, if one wishes to self insure, maintain only one laptop and buy another one at the Apple Store the same day yours breaks. Sell the old one back to Apple once it is repaired. Slightly more expensive, but you can defer the cost until the event.
Always backup continuously.
But for me personally, you lost me at "Macbook": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ Then again, life is often about tradeoffs. For me, Framework offers the best tradeoff.
they're slow but they are super reliable, last forever, and don't have any garbage software
That said, I don't think building a "better" unprofitable, archaic device is good business, Framework.
Ink jets inherently suck for low volume users because the ink dries out. Dot matrix impact still exists but is heavy duty now. The cheap home and compact models are gone. Also, afaict, no more small thermal printers except for receipt printers. But I might look around more.
Anyone know a good site to look for this stuff?
The cost of a consumer smart TV has moved towards being subsidized by selling ads and watch history to media companies. Most consumers expect their flat screen high resolution 80" TV to cost less than $1000; there's even some choices in the $400-500 range now. Samsung (et al) need the recurring ad revenue (they say) to keep the lights on and provide continued products. They rightfully believe the market won't exist for the sustainable cost of the TV set, maybe in the multiple thousand price range, without the ad/viewership revenue.
I think HP is facing this same problem. People won't buy a multiple thousands dollar printer. The market has driven the price down, such that HP needs to capture recurring revenue from its consumers. Without it, the retail price of printers would end up being much higher, likely out of reach for common consumers.
I think the blame for this lies more with consumers than with manufacturers. I'm not stump speeching for HP; if anything, they have been my bane from previous days of being a local system administrator maintaining a fleet of printers for an engineering firm. And yes, corporate greed, perceived shareholder needs, and CxO salaries have led to these conditions too.
Ultimately I just wish there were some good market choices here for normal consumers. I don't want to buy the "business" version of a printer anymore than I want to buy the business version of a smart TV display. But I wish there was a model where we didn't have to shell out for expensive HP toner just to have a decent printer on a subscription model.
Like it or not, I think the subscription model is only in the beginning phases. You're not going to own anything in the future.
There doesn't seem to be any evidence for this though. People are now having to use (more expensive) workarounds in order to have a TV that doesn't monetise them.
eg large monitor + dedicated tv appliance / pc, using a commercial display, etc.