We have two 20+ year old pickup trucks. We won't buy anything much newer than that, we don't want the unavoidable electronic infelicities that infected cars after 2005.
We can't afford anything newer either, but that's really not a consideration. We're stretching the repair of our (manual everything, even non-ABS brakes) trucks as far as it will go before we embrace the suck or modern cars that meet the Central Scrutinizer's standards.
You're also trading some amount of risk due to not having newer safety features. For example electronic stability control has been shown by study after study to reduce accidents. With your manual brakes there's simply no way to apply the brake to one wheel only to pull a vehicle out of a skid.
> In line with previous results, this study concludes that ESC reduces the risk for single-vehicle injury accidents by 31% when controlling for various confounding factors related to the driver, the car, and the accident surroundings.
That seems a bit dubious. What makes you say that?
The reason I ask is that, as I understand it, the collection happens via cellular modems talking to cell towers to report back to the mothership; it's not through, e.g., connecting your smartphone via bluetooth. (The non-smartphone information they send is about car usage habits and statistics, including location.) I'd be curious what the make/model of the car is which doesn't have this hardware.
The sibling comment about the 2013 model is more likely since I don't know when manufacturers started putting cellular modems in their cars. "Brand new", not so much.
lol - check again. As others pointed out it's just about assured your car has an embedded cellular modem and is spying on you unless you explicitly opt out.
My car is from 2013. It’s got more safety features but I don’t think it has any way to report data about me. You could consider getting something that age, when the time comes.
around 2010 just about every car started to come with an embedded cellular modem. If your car offers any sort of remote start, SOS or concierge functionality, it's infected. And car companies have been caught selling driving data to insurance companies. Ugh.
Yes, I should have been more explicit but I was relying on the fact that the cellular modem in my car and many others from that time have had their service discontinued. So the car likely did used to report on me, but I suspect it does not any longer.
I'm deviant in my habits there, too: i prefer the manual control and feedback, even when they're not required. I want to feel the health of my brake pads and ball joints.
Did some drifting back when, in a car set up with all sorts of tricks, including 4 wheel line locks on the brakes. Those were used more often to put the car into a spin than to recover from one.
To drill in on this, 2nd generation stability control began as a feature between 1995 and 1998; so many premium brands that are 20-25 years old do this.
In the context of the article; NHSTA mandated stability control in 2012, so any car newer than average is guaranteed to have the feature.
> With your manual brakes there's simply no way to apply the brake to one wheel only to pull a vehicle out of a skid.
Just don't drive like an idiot and/or learn how to manually recover from a skid.
I mean, I've never been in a skid that wasn't a direct result of driving like an idiot and have never crashed due to loss of traction. Probably the worst case was in my old BMW 2002 where I was making a left turn at an intersection, on wet roads, sideways, and instead of panicking I just gave it more gas until the rear end came around.
> Just don't drive like an idiot and/or learn how to manually recover from a skid.
There was a Top Gear segment on why so many Finns are F1 drivers, etc., and it was actually good and informative, talking about their approach to childhood drivers ed.
We're talking skid pans, advanced defensive driving techniques, while you're a teenager. Dealing with hydroplaning, black ice, brake failure, all of it.
Prices and interest rates are primary factors, but longevity and reliability must be considered also. Cars don't rust out anymore about 5 years, parts last longer, and engineering tolerances are better. This is also with cars that are way more complex than they were in 1980, so it's not all a bad thing.
The one interesting thing in the future may be software longevity/reliability. A 12.6 year old car had some software, but nothing like a 3 year old car or a new car. Will car companies be pushing updates for 2024 models in 2036?
In 2036, the longevity and reliability of 2024 will be showing off.
Blind spot detection, collision warnings, additional lighting, and adaptive cruise control substantially reduce accidents.
Electric drive trains have fewer moving / service required parts; Whether that be motors (no combustion, no brushes, not even 10,000 mile oil changes), brakes (reduced because of regenerative braking)
Each of those features is stupendously expensive to repair. I have a Mazda with a missing rear blindspot sensor, and the “calibration” service is thousands of dollars.
The way I see it - as long as a healthy used car market exists there should really be no reason to have to pay the kinds of prices being asked for by dealers for new(er) vehicles.
The used car market has been pretty strange for the past few years. I’ve been considering replacing my car recently and finding the discount for buying used is way less than it was before the pandemic. I’m seeing some five year old models listed at basically the same price they originally cost new.
The chip shortage hit car makers much worse than a lot of markets, so used cars skyrocketed in value. It’s only just now really starting to return to normal
I took my car in for maintenance and the dealer offered me more than I paid for it on the spot.
>The used car market has been pretty strange for the past few years.
American automakers no longer make compact cars. Actually, they don't make full-size cars either (with the sole exception of the Ford Mustang).
Once you understand that, you understand why everything's fucked up. 20 years ago, each of the Big 3 would sell 6-figure sums of compact cars, all for less than 25K (inflation-adjusted).
Turns out that they'd rather make 50K SUVs and 100K trucks instead.
Part of that is safety and fuel economy standards that make it functionally illegal to turn a profit on a small car now (and electric compact cars that will be forced at gunpoint in the future will continue to be complete garbage range-wise simply because they don't have enough room for the batteries, so there's no point in designing one- customers already refuse to buy full-size EVs for this reason).
Part of that was people getting used to negative interest rates, and US automakers tooling up to exploit that fact.
Part of that is increased labor costs make it uneconomical to make an inexpensive car (which is specifically why the US bans imports of Chinese compact EVs- even if they passed safety regulations, which they don't).
It's not actually possible to solve this in the short term; which is why the meta remains "buy a Corolla and drive it until the wheels fall off".
Last year I bought a 2015 Fiat 500 for basically 2015 list price. Couldn't afford anything newer, wanted a small car that gets good gas mileage and it's in excellent shape so not complaining.
Used cars come with their own costs. A new car will probably last you 20 years, a 10 year old car will need to be replaced in another 10. A new car will have negligible upkeep in the first 5 years, a used car will have upkeep in the first 5 year of your ownership. At some point, repairs on older cars are more expensive as certain parts become obsolete and become harder to find. Newer cars offer better fuel economy, a 10 year old car will make you spend more on fuel. Over a longer period of time (say 20 years), the cost of using new car vs old car kind of converges. You keep a new car for longer, while you’re forced to change the older cars.
Unless you’re going for cars >5 years old or cars with a big mileage, used cars will also be very expensive.
My last car didn't have cruise control. When I bought it, I didn't even realize it at the time because... what 2013 model doesn't have cruise control? Anyway, if it weren't for a wreck that totaled it (with 3 payments left), I'd certainly be driving it today. It had 55K miles on it, AC worked, and I replaced the radio with an Android Auto device.
I replaced it with a 2019 with about the same amount of miles on it and every single feature I wanted in 2021 and have put 5K miles on it since. The best part is that after an argument with my insurance company over used car prices, the difference between what they gave me for my wreck and what I bought the first car for was $500.
Buying a brand new car to me is not much different than buying a designer bag or a pair of Jordans... you aren't paying for the utility, you're paying to be seen with the item. And then 2 months after the newness has worn off and everyone you know has seen you with the item, you're still stuck with the payments.
The Toyota Hilux and the Hilux derived "Champ" (starts at about $13K USD) are not allowed in the USA, but other countries do buy them. The "Chicken Tax" and other measures keep them from being sold in the USA. Instead, the cheapest MSRP pickup from Ford is $36,875 .
In every aspect the Tacoma is superior, especially at the high end of the trim levels but even with the base models.
I do not understand people's fascination with them, other than the fact that they are seldomly seen in the US.
For towing the Tacoma is better and the hilux is only better for hauling if you get the commercial models with the reinforced flatbeds.
Even for "hard core" offroading the Tacoma is better with a much better approach angle and a departure angle within 0.5 degrees of the Hilux.
In non-emerging markets, like Australia, the price is the same which makes the obsession with them even stranger because a Hilux SR5 (three trim levels up) is actual, literal, trash compared to a Tacoma SR5 (base trim level) but is $5,000 USD more-- again, in markets economically similar to the US.
They are only "cheap" in markets where the average annual income is more like the average monthly income in the US.
Is it the diesel? Some kind of talibancore aesthetic thing?
I think people really just want to see the hole that was created when the Tacoma upsized in 2005 filled with something, because even “midsize” trucks are overkill for a lot of people.
I just want a small truck. I don’t need to haul frequently, but I do enough renovation work and landscaping that a truck bed is a huge quality of life upgrade. Some of us just want a decent, simple beater work truck.
Obviously there are many models of both the Hilux and Tacoma but the greatest size difference between the two in the 4-door double cab configuration is that the Tacoma is 6 cm, or 1.12% longer.
I do not think that an length increase of the width of a single standard playing card is a practical difference.
It is 2.9% wider, that may be noticeable.
The hilux used to be a lot smaller than it is now so maybe people are remembering the hiluxes from 25-30 years ago?
The article is correct that high prices are causing people to keep their cars longer. But it is not correct that the average US vehicle age is related.
When you switch from an old car to a new car, the old car doesn't disappear. Someone else buys it, and when that person switches, someone else will buy it. And on and on, until it is no longer roadworthy "enough" and either is junked or exported to a country where the standard for roadworthiness is lower.
The fact that the average US vehicle age continues to climb is an indicator that the durability of vehicles continues to climb. That's it.
Older vehicles get shipped overseas from the US. An old Toyota hybrid we owned and sold to CarMax during COVID was shipped to South America, for example.
No it isn't. Because the price at which it makes sense to junk it changes when prices stay high. You're probably not going to do a $2000 repair on a 15 year old car that cost you $500 but you might if it cost $10000.
> The fact that the average US vehicle age continues to climb is an indicator that the durability of vehicles continues to climb. That's it.
Aside from collision damage I can keep any old car on the road -- newer cars, not so much.
Find an old car and figure out why they quit driving it plus whatever happened from it sitting around (seals going bad and whatnot) then drive it over to the DMV to get registration... the story of pretty much every car I drove in the '90s.
I mean, I'd love an affordable sedan with affordable credit, but instead the automakers would rather shove me into an overpriced overbloated SUV with a payment that's getting scarily closer and closer to "mortgage" territory.
Ultimately, I see this as a good thing. It's a waste of resources to have vehicles that don't last 12 years.
And ultimately I think vehicles as a status-symbol is really wasteful. At least if you spend that money buy a nicer house the value will likely increase rather than go to 0.
I can easily afford a new vehicle, but I have no desire to buy any of the new models full of touch-screens, data collectors and other digital junk that I don't want.
I'm holding out hoping some manufacturer will rebel against the trend and make a car with real door handles, a physical key, knobs and buttons for all controls, etc.
I'm not paying a monthly subscription fee for heated seats and I don't want my car to not start because it doesn't have an internet connection.
53 comments
[ 7.0 ms ] story [ 121 ms ] threadWe can't afford anything newer either, but that's really not a consideration. We're stretching the repair of our (manual everything, even non-ABS brakes) trucks as far as it will go before we embrace the suck or modern cars that meet the Central Scrutinizer's standards.
It doesn't look like any of that is going to change, so I'll be nursing older cars along for, in all likelihood, the rest of my life.
Example study: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15389588.2014.9...
> In line with previous results, this study concludes that ESC reduces the risk for single-vehicle injury accidents by 31% when controlling for various confounding factors related to the driver, the car, and the accident surroundings.
The reason I ask is that, as I understand it, the collection happens via cellular modems talking to cell towers to report back to the mothership; it's not through, e.g., connecting your smartphone via bluetooth. (The non-smartphone information they send is about car usage habits and statistics, including location.) I'd be curious what the make/model of the car is which doesn't have this hardware.
The sibling comment about the 2013 model is more likely since I don't know when manufacturers started putting cellular modems in their cars. "Brand new", not so much.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/03/how-figure-out-what-yo...
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/03/how-figure-out-what-yo...
Did some drifting back when, in a car set up with all sorts of tricks, including 4 wheel line locks on the brakes. Those were used more often to put the car into a spin than to recover from one.
In the context of the article; NHSTA mandated stability control in 2012, so any car newer than average is guaranteed to have the feature.
Just don't drive like an idiot and/or learn how to manually recover from a skid.
I mean, I've never been in a skid that wasn't a direct result of driving like an idiot and have never crashed due to loss of traction. Probably the worst case was in my old BMW 2002 where I was making a left turn at an intersection, on wet roads, sideways, and instead of panicking I just gave it more gas until the rear end came around.
There was a Top Gear segment on why so many Finns are F1 drivers, etc., and it was actually good and informative, talking about their approach to childhood drivers ed.
We're talking skid pans, advanced defensive driving techniques, while you're a teenager. Dealing with hydroplaning, black ice, brake failure, all of it.
The one interesting thing in the future may be software longevity/reliability. A 12.6 year old car had some software, but nothing like a 3 year old car or a new car. Will car companies be pushing updates for 2024 models in 2036?
Blind spot detection, collision warnings, additional lighting, and adaptive cruise control substantially reduce accidents.
Electric drive trains have fewer moving / service required parts; Whether that be motors (no combustion, no brushes, not even 10,000 mile oil changes), brakes (reduced because of regenerative braking)
Even if I were a multi-millionaire I would never pay that kind of money for a depreciating asset so I'm going to keep driving my 18 year old car.
I took my car in for maintenance and the dealer offered me more than I paid for it on the spot.
American automakers no longer make compact cars. Actually, they don't make full-size cars either (with the sole exception of the Ford Mustang).
Once you understand that, you understand why everything's fucked up. 20 years ago, each of the Big 3 would sell 6-figure sums of compact cars, all for less than 25K (inflation-adjusted).
Turns out that they'd rather make 50K SUVs and 100K trucks instead.
Part of that is safety and fuel economy standards that make it functionally illegal to turn a profit on a small car now (and electric compact cars that will be forced at gunpoint in the future will continue to be complete garbage range-wise simply because they don't have enough room for the batteries, so there's no point in designing one- customers already refuse to buy full-size EVs for this reason).
Part of that was people getting used to negative interest rates, and US automakers tooling up to exploit that fact.
Part of that is increased labor costs make it uneconomical to make an inexpensive car (which is specifically why the US bans imports of Chinese compact EVs- even if they passed safety regulations, which they don't).
It's not actually possible to solve this in the short term; which is why the meta remains "buy a Corolla and drive it until the wheels fall off".
Unless you’re going for cars >5 years old or cars with a big mileage, used cars will also be very expensive.
I replaced it with a 2019 with about the same amount of miles on it and every single feature I wanted in 2021 and have put 5K miles on it since. The best part is that after an argument with my insurance company over used car prices, the difference between what they gave me for my wreck and what I bought the first car for was $500.
Buying a brand new car to me is not much different than buying a designer bag or a pair of Jordans... you aren't paying for the utility, you're paying to be seen with the item. And then 2 months after the newness has worn off and everyone you know has seen you with the item, you're still stuck with the payments.
https://www.motor1.com/news/698055/toyota-13000-dollar-hilux...
In every aspect the Tacoma is superior, especially at the high end of the trim levels but even with the base models.
I do not understand people's fascination with them, other than the fact that they are seldomly seen in the US.
For towing the Tacoma is better and the hilux is only better for hauling if you get the commercial models with the reinforced flatbeds.
Even for "hard core" offroading the Tacoma is better with a much better approach angle and a departure angle within 0.5 degrees of the Hilux.
In non-emerging markets, like Australia, the price is the same which makes the obsession with them even stranger because a Hilux SR5 (three trim levels up) is actual, literal, trash compared to a Tacoma SR5 (base trim level) but is $5,000 USD more-- again, in markets economically similar to the US.
They are only "cheap" in markets where the average annual income is more like the average monthly income in the US.
Is it the diesel? Some kind of talibancore aesthetic thing?
I do not think that an length increase of the width of a single standard playing card is a practical difference.
It is 2.9% wider, that may be noticeable.
The hilux used to be a lot smaller than it is now so maybe people are remembering the hiluxes from 25-30 years ago?
The champ looks like it would do terrible in a crash, and it doesn't have the federally required backup camera.
When you switch from an old car to a new car, the old car doesn't disappear. Someone else buys it, and when that person switches, someone else will buy it. And on and on, until it is no longer roadworthy "enough" and either is junked or exported to a country where the standard for roadworthiness is lower.
The fact that the average US vehicle age continues to climb is an indicator that the durability of vehicles continues to climb. That's it.
That is, if vehicles are currently more expensive, the threshold where a vehicle isn't worth maintaining would go up.
So this suggests that it isn't necessarily that vehicles are inherently becoming more durable.
Aside from collision damage I can keep any old car on the road -- newer cars, not so much.
Find an old car and figure out why they quit driving it plus whatever happened from it sitting around (seals going bad and whatnot) then drive it over to the DMV to get registration... the story of pretty much every car I drove in the '90s.
Agreed that this is largely a function of higher quality/longer lasting vehicles though
And ultimately I think vehicles as a status-symbol is really wasteful. At least if you spend that money buy a nicer house the value will likely increase rather than go to 0.
I'm holding out hoping some manufacturer will rebel against the trend and make a car with real door handles, a physical key, knobs and buttons for all controls, etc.
I'm not paying a monthly subscription fee for heated seats and I don't want my car to not start because it doesn't have an internet connection.