Does Phoenix have a heat problem or a meth and fentanyl problem?
> Meanwhile, drugs and alcohol were involved in 65% of Phoenix’s heat deaths, merging two public health scourges into one. Among the drugs most commonly contributing to heat deaths were methamphetamines and fentanyl.
""In Arizona’s Maricopa County, home to the capital of Phoenix, nearly 2,000 people have died of heat-related deaths in the past five years. Built in a desert with limited water supplies and expanding rapidly, Phoenix, once called “the world’s least-sustainable city,”""
Then why is there demand? Why do humans want to live in a desolate desert without water? It isn't logical. Maybe allergies are better for a few people. That doesn't explain why companies would commit. Why would semiconductor companies build plants here.
Guess that is "logic" as in "human logic, what makes me feel good right now and discount all future problems".
That might make sense, doesn't Phoenix also have a pretty high percentage of overweight unhealthy people? Just sitting inside with air conditioning. It fits that method of thinking.
Seems pretty logical to pursue your own interests, which are inherently human and personal. We don't know the interests of the individuals who choose to live in Phoenix, so we're not in a position to say they're right or wrong, logical or illogical to do so. But, we can guess. It's easy to guess interests which would make the decision to live there completely logical. They may not be your interests or mine, but then again they're not obliged to share your interests or mine. Put another way, if it "justifies" (i.e increases the likelihood of getting) what you want, then it's not that it appears logical. It is logical.
Logic is using facts/premises plus reason. You are describing just doing what you want. Being purely self interested in order to justify your actions.
Technically, being self interested isn't wrong. But it isn't Logic.
Logic
""Logic studies arguments, which consist of a set of premises together with a conclusion. An example is the argument from the premises "it's Sunday" and "if it's Sunday then I don't have to work" to the conclusion "I don't have to work".[1] Premises and conclusions express propositions or claims that can be true or false.""
Self Interest
"First, psychological egoism is a theory about the nature of human motives.
Psychological egoism suggests that all behaviors are motivated by self-interest. In other words, it suggests that every action or behavior or decision of every person is motivated by self interest. It also suggests that every action must be motivated by self interest. The doctrine of selfish motivation is simply a natural law of psychology. Just as it is a natural law of physics that bodies tend to move toward one another in proportion to their masses and at velocities inversely proportionate to their distances from one another, it is a natural law that all motivations are, ultimately, selfish."
Of course, we are getting into definitions of words. And technically, I do agree, people can do what they want, there is no right or wrong. I just don't think it is logical.
> Logic studies arguments, which consist of a set of premises together with a conclusion.
Premise: "I want warm weather and cheap housing."
Premise: "People should move to the places that offer what they want."
Premise: "Phoenix offers warm weather and cheap housing."
Conclusion: "I should move to Phoenix."
Ah, the age-old debate of logic versus self-interest. Sure, logic is about connecting the dots with premises and conclusions, but let's not kid ourselves—most of our decisions are driven by what we want.
So, if someone wants warm weather and cheap housing, and Phoenix fits the bill, then it's a no-brainer.
1. *Premise:* "I want warm weather and cheap housing."
2. *Premise:* "Phoenix offers warm weather and cheap housing."
3. *Conclusion:* "I should move to Phoenix."
Boom. Logical and self-interested. Just because it's driven by personal desire doesn't make it illogical. It's logic with a dash of "I know what I like." So yeah, moving to Phoenix makes perfect sense if that's what floats your boat.
"
You can make any premises you want to satisfy your goals. So just do what you want. Don't need to kid yourself that it was logical.
I don't have to kid myself that it's logical because I know it's logical. That's cold comfort, however, because we're not going to create a more just future by winning a debate, especially against individuals. "Logical" is no more a conversation-ending mic-drop than "illogical" is. If we want a more just future with a more environmentally-sane economy, we'll have to threaten policymakers to change policy. No amount of moral grandstanding with individuals is going to help matters.
Guess I was going down the road that an environmentally-sane economy would need 'logic', it would be more 'logical', that it would be more correct versus the current system that seems 'illogical'. Thus we could use logic to argue for change.
This argument is showing that all sides could use 'logic' to reach their own desired conclusion, so logic is not really the method of change.
The whole problem of "You can't use logic to dissuade someone who didn't use logic to reach their viewpoint in the first place".
This argument has demonstrated that 'logic' can be more flexible when used by humans. Having a better environment for he future isn't necessarily better just by using 'logic'. Thus we can't use logic to argue for better policy. Thus, as you said, we need to fall back on different methods to 'threaten policymakers to change policy'.
I can't help but think that if we give up on logic, that it is slippery slope. Who is every really ever 'correct'.
I think there is only missing variables. The logic changes based on adding new/updated premises.
Like others in this thread have mentioned, Phoenix actually does have water, that it is the Alfalfa agriculture business that is using 70% of the water (i'm taking their numbers).
So, if we add in this new information like "it is really the agriculture business", then the question that logic leads to is more "can we modify that business" or "does Alfalfa really needed to be grown in this area, can it be moved".
So the logic for the humans becomes more like
1. A lot of people want to live here because of the sunny weather.
2. The water supply is now over-extended
3. The main users of water is the Alfalfa industry, not the new humans moving to the area.
4. Given the humans are the government (democracy), and they choose to live here, can they work towards changing the industry in such a way to accommodate both?
Of course, farmers have rights too. And we get into government authority, who is the 'arbiter' in conflicts. Especially out west where different states might dam up rivers and starve downstream states, then it goes to Federal Gov. But what if we dam up water going to Mexico, then it is inter-Nation conflict, and then what the UN or war. And then we start to get to point about, how really, humans are going to fight over resources and the planet is doomed.
We don't have to give up on logic. Just use it to point out hypocrisy. Extra points if you use it to needle politicians, policymakers, and pundits as opposed to ordinary voters.
Phoenix is one of the best places to build a city in the entire southwest. It's at the confluence of two major rivers (the Gila and Salt), near a lot of decent agricultural land, and connected by canal to an extremely large river (the Colorado). It's geologically stable and land is cheap. The population is relatively high, relatively educated, and the state government is willing to give companies huge concessions to be there.
People have been building along the Sonoran rivers for thousands of years and they'll probably continue for thousands more.
Arguably the resources are tight because of too much agriculture, not too many people. Specifically, too much alfalfa, used to feed cows. I think the numbers are something like 70% of the water in Arizona is used to grow alfalfa. Reduce the production of alfalfa and the water scarcity disappears.
The allergy thing is a myth. If anything, allergies are worse in Phoenix than otemhe rparts of the country. The lack of any moisture in the air keeps allergens suspended for longer. Perhaps people spend more time indoors with filtered air to come to that conclusion. Phoenix even has unique spores with its own disease (valley fever).
"Valley Fever" isn't unique to Phoenix, and that isn't even the primary area it is found. It's named such for the San Jaoquin Valley in California.
Even if you meant c. posadasii (one of the two fungal spores that causes it; c. immitis is the other that is restricted to California) that isn't unique to Arizona but is found in Mexico and South America as well.
That quote comes from an article ( https://grist.org/climate-energy/the-least-sustainable-city-... ) that argues that multiple infrastructure failures would be a disaster. I agree that there's a risk here in such an extreme scenario, though that's exactly why those services are as robust as they are.
My response is that if you aren't prepared for the A/C to go out during the summer or for your car to break down, then you're living on the edge. It's easy to put yourself in a bad spot.
I think we're okay, so I challenge the notion that were not, but it's something we need pushback on to keep us sharp. There are problems everywhere and it's key that we focus on ours.
Phoenix native here. The people who have lived here a long time know how to adjust to the heat. You really have to live “another way”. People who come to town are completely unprepared. It feels like LA weather from October until May, and then suddenly it’s very hot.
You can’t live “normally” when it’s over 115, with a low of 93 at 5 am. There’s tons of unofficial lifestyle rules to survive well. For example before you drive you “cool down your car” by turning on the air conditioning and washing the car by running the hose all over it (even though that water is also hot lol). Cooling off your car that’s been sitting in the hot sun with water allows the air to actually work.
Tons of stuff like that. You need to drink cold water with electrolytes and I find everyone’s diet changes. People eat less, and eat spicier Mexican food and salt.
It’s a real special environment. I personally believe the June July August and first half of Sept heat challenges are worth the desert beauty of the rest of the year.
I'm a native too, though I've lived more in the "greater Phoenix area" than only Phoenix.
It is comically true how we tend to live in AC bubbles. On one hand, I completely understand. When the heat is so heavy that you can walk outside for 15 seconds, come back inside, and only then start sweating... I can't fault people for avoiding it as much as possible.
Growing up, I'd always shivver during the summer and sweat during winter. Places like schools and stores will blast their AC constantly so the entire building is the opposite of the temperature outside. Often I'll wear layers to get around it, putting on up to three shirts when going indoors for a longer period of time.
When I worked in construction for a year I learned how to safely work in 110°F heat. After that, I tried really hard to not adapt back to the colder weather, which is kind of hard when where I'm working requires me to bundle up during the summer as if it's winter because they keep it as cold as they can.
I live in the southwest as well and personally, I’ll take 110 and dry over 90 degrees and humid (Which covers most of the East Coast). The human body can actually cool down by evaporating sweat. The key is to get out of direct sunlight, drink lots of water, and avoid going out during the hottest part of the day.
> For example before you drive you “cool down your car”
This seems anathema to a location that is under threat of not enough water. If a city is willing to slow down construction because they don't have to water to support the growth, I can't imagine this is an accepted practice that you are actually promoting.
I live in Texas where it can also get to over 110°, and I have never seen anyone do this. We've all done the open the door, jump in to start the car, crank the AC, roll down the windows too. You gotta exhaust that baked air inside. It's so bad you avoid touching the car with bare hands. But again, not once would I think wasting water on the car would be a good idea or even a good thing to do.
It might be better to look at it as a "strategically timed" car wash. Its so dusty in the summer your windshield can be hard to see out of. We have little humidity in July. Just horrid oven like heat. We open the door and windows to get the air out too. Probably the lack of humidity in June / July allows this to work in a way it would not in non-desert places.
Also after a week or two over 115, 110 feels absolutely "cool" to us here in Phoenix. We really do say "Hey, today the high is only 110! Fall is coming!".
It's been a long time since I've seen someone so committed to something so obviously a terrible idea. You've doubled down and splits 8s with this while charging up a very odd hill to die on and whatever other cliche fits.
You remind me of the neighbor's teenage kid I once saw cleaning cut grass from the drive way with a garden hose sprayer. I still remember his dad realizing his failure in raising a kid with common sense and explaining what a waste in water it was, how expensive it was, and just illogical of a decision it was. I feel I've now become that dad.
It’s not terrible when it’s 119 in Phoenix. We also have green summer lawns that we water too. We live, the lawns help keep the interior of the city cool, as do the trees.
I’m sure many think it’s illogical to try to live on Phoenix. That’s alright, it’s our choice.
I'd be worried about eventually cracking glass from the extraneous, repeated, rapid thermal stress. Garage the car OR park in the shade OR put up a solar shade in the window, crack the windows, and/or crank the A/C before getting in. Also, don't have a car with a dark paint or interior, or metal seatbelt buckle housings.
Everybody puts solar shade reflectors in the front and side windows - else you’ll burn your hands on the steering wheel. Phoenix historic downtown homes don’t generally have garages and shade is hard to find. We always leave the windows cracked. It’s a very extreme environ akin to Death Valley and it’s hard to imagine if you haven’t lived through a summer here.
I've been around a bit, but I don't understand people who don't help themselves by practicing enough adaptive habits. My mom appears allergic to solar shades for some reason.
I gave up on those collapsible shades you have to take down and put somewhere in the car until the one day you're in a rush and put it in the trunk trying to make space or just hide it because it doesn't look cool on date night, but then you park to realize it's in the trunk but your in a hurry and decide you get it back out next time. Continuously for weeks.
I upgraded to the retractable ones that attach to the either side of the windshield. They were never put in the trunk ever again
I haven’t been to Phoenix. Do they prioritize trees with significant shade, or other architectural design features to help cope with it? I found Savannah to do this really well, but not a lot of other places in the south.
Due to lack of water large trees don’t naturally grow, but can be grown if cultivated. Older neighborhoods often have 30-40 foot trees like any other place, but natively nothing grows much higher than 15 feet or so. Phoenix only gets 8 inches of rain a year and is in constant drought so it takes effort to get anything bigger.
Architecture is just catching up to optimizing for shade. It’s really a shame. Parking lots are now being covered by solar panels, which is a great use of space.
Living in the extreme cold is very similar. You just have to accept that "outside" isn't a thing for 6 months a year. The problem comes when things break down or you lose access to housing. That gets dangerous very quickly.
The Sacramento/Davis, CA is almost as hot for not quite as long but with little humidity makes it tolerable.
OTOH, it's 93F and 63% humidity in Austin on June 1, 2024. It was 105-110F in 2023 for 4 months last summer. While tacos are the city's official food, but it's harder to find good authentic Mexican or Tex-Mex that isn't gourmet or hipsterized. Near San Anton has some fantastic authentic Mexican and Tex-Mex restaurants.
Yep. Heat is a great way to go on a "diet".
I keep a gallon bottle of water in the fridge premixed with sugar-free electrolyte powder. Cheaper than buying colored water and less calories.
It still for whatever reason blows my mind that a subset of society hasn't adjusted to functioning based on weather instead of clock/sunlight.
In a place like Phoenix that would/could mean the world shutting down 2PM-5PM instead of 2AM-5AM. 2AM should be when everybody is going out after dinner.
Covid only made this worse with the loss of 24h shopping, and 11PM cutoffs.
Every one of these deaths is on the head of the government of California. The one and only reason people crowd into Phoenix is because they are fleeing the housing supply crisis of temperate coastal cities that should be 2-10x bigger than they are.
> Every one of these deaths is on the head of the government of California. The one and only reason people crowd into Phoenix is because they are fleeing the housing supply crisis of temperate coastal cities that should be 2-10x bigger than they are.
Imagine thinking the only reason people opt to live in Arizona over California were lack of housing supply. Not one iota to do with flag colors.
It’s sad to see retirees burning their retirement savings to move to Florida, only to return to civilization when their health fails, or dying early for lack of care.
People have been moving from California to AZ since before 2000. We get plenty of people from all around the US. I generally don't want to care about California's policies because focusing on Arizona's policies is more practical, but I do wish California and Nevada would waste less water. We take water security seriously because a lack of water is a meaningful threat. That stuff requires long-term planning that puts safety first instead of optimizing for profit.
Blaming deaths in Arizona on California? Is this the latest right leaning twisted logic to blame liberals for something? Arizona is pretty conservative, and yet it is liberal's fault for them dying by making them move there?
I had a chance to move to the SW area a long time ago, I said no thank you, I do not mind the snow. If the heat there hit me, I would probably end up in the ICU.
Now where I am, it does not get that cold in the winter. I think this past winter, the ave temp was about 35 -40 F (2-5C). Decades ago it was common to have a few days with a high of around -10F (-23C). I do not even remember the last time we had temps below 0 (-17C).
And yet, people and companies are still moving to that area. Will be fun times in that area in say 10 years. Glad half the people in the US is doing all they can to increase C02. If you are young and live below the Mason Dixon Line, time to think about moving north.
May I ask how you keep your house warm in winters if you live above Mason-Dixon? I bet that activity alone ("heating houses in winter in North America") puts you in the top 10%-ile people in the world by CO2 emissions.
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[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 115 ms ] thread> Meanwhile, drugs and alcohol were involved in 65% of Phoenix’s heat deaths, merging two public health scourges into one. Among the drugs most commonly contributing to heat deaths were methamphetamines and fentanyl.
""In Arizona’s Maricopa County, home to the capital of Phoenix, nearly 2,000 people have died of heat-related deaths in the past five years. Built in a desert with limited water supplies and expanding rapidly, Phoenix, once called “the world’s least-sustainable city,”""
Then why is there demand? Why do humans want to live in a desolate desert without water? It isn't logical. Maybe allergies are better for a few people. That doesn't explain why companies would commit. Why would semiconductor companies build plants here.
That might make sense, doesn't Phoenix also have a pretty high percentage of overweight unhealthy people? Just sitting inside with air conditioning. It fits that method of thinking.
I assume the people living in Phoenix are humans, yes. Seems likely they're using the one and only logic available to humans.
The point was it is not logical, 'human logic' is fallacious. It only appears logical if it justifies what you want.
Technically, being self interested isn't wrong. But it isn't Logic.
Logic
""Logic studies arguments, which consist of a set of premises together with a conclusion. An example is the argument from the premises "it's Sunday" and "if it's Sunday then I don't have to work" to the conclusion "I don't have to work".[1] Premises and conclusions express propositions or claims that can be true or false.""
Self Interest
"First, psychological egoism is a theory about the nature of human motives.
Psychological egoism suggests that all behaviors are motivated by self-interest. In other words, it suggests that every action or behavior or decision of every person is motivated by self interest. It also suggests that every action must be motivated by self interest. The doctrine of selfish motivation is simply a natural law of psychology. Just as it is a natural law of physics that bodies tend to move toward one another in proportion to their masses and at velocities inversely proportionate to their distances from one another, it is a natural law that all motivations are, ultimately, selfish."
Of course, we are getting into definitions of words. And technically, I do agree, people can do what they want, there is no right or wrong. I just don't think it is logical.
"
Ah, the age-old debate of logic versus self-interest. Sure, logic is about connecting the dots with premises and conclusions, but let's not kid ourselves—most of our decisions are driven by what we want.
So, if someone wants warm weather and cheap housing, and Phoenix fits the bill, then it's a no-brainer.
1. *Premise:* "I want warm weather and cheap housing."
2. *Premise:* "Phoenix offers warm weather and cheap housing."
3. *Conclusion:* "I should move to Phoenix."
Boom. Logical and self-interested. Just because it's driven by personal desire doesn't make it illogical. It's logic with a dash of "I know what I like." So yeah, moving to Phoenix makes perfect sense if that's what floats your boat.
"
You can make any premises you want to satisfy your goals. So just do what you want. Don't need to kid yourself that it was logical.
Guess I was going down the road that an environmentally-sane economy would need 'logic', it would be more 'logical', that it would be more correct versus the current system that seems 'illogical'. Thus we could use logic to argue for change.
This argument is showing that all sides could use 'logic' to reach their own desired conclusion, so logic is not really the method of change.
The whole problem of "You can't use logic to dissuade someone who didn't use logic to reach their viewpoint in the first place".
This argument has demonstrated that 'logic' can be more flexible when used by humans. Having a better environment for he future isn't necessarily better just by using 'logic'. Thus we can't use logic to argue for better policy. Thus, as you said, we need to fall back on different methods to 'threaten policymakers to change policy'.
I think there is only missing variables. The logic changes based on adding new/updated premises.
Like others in this thread have mentioned, Phoenix actually does have water, that it is the Alfalfa agriculture business that is using 70% of the water (i'm taking their numbers).
So, if we add in this new information like "it is really the agriculture business", then the question that logic leads to is more "can we modify that business" or "does Alfalfa really needed to be grown in this area, can it be moved".
So the logic for the humans becomes more like
1. A lot of people want to live here because of the sunny weather.
2. The water supply is now over-extended
3. The main users of water is the Alfalfa industry, not the new humans moving to the area.
4. Given the humans are the government (democracy), and they choose to live here, can they work towards changing the industry in such a way to accommodate both?
Of course, farmers have rights too. And we get into government authority, who is the 'arbiter' in conflicts. Especially out west where different states might dam up rivers and starve downstream states, then it goes to Federal Gov. But what if we dam up water going to Mexico, then it is inter-Nation conflict, and then what the UN or war. And then we start to get to point about, how really, humans are going to fight over resources and the planet is doomed.
People have been building along the Sonoran rivers for thousands of years and they'll probably continue for thousands more.
There's water there to support civilization, Phoenix just grew too big.
Even if you meant c. posadasii (one of the two fungal spores that causes it; c. immitis is the other that is restricted to California) that isn't unique to Arizona but is found in Mexico and South America as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coccidioidomycosis
> Built in a desert with limited water supplies and expanding rapidly, Phoenix, once called “the world’s least-sustainable city,”
My response is that if you aren't prepared for the A/C to go out during the summer or for your car to break down, then you're living on the edge. It's easy to put yourself in a bad spot.
I think we're okay, so I challenge the notion that were not, but it's something we need pushback on to keep us sharp. There are problems everywhere and it's key that we focus on ours.
You can’t live “normally” when it’s over 115, with a low of 93 at 5 am. There’s tons of unofficial lifestyle rules to survive well. For example before you drive you “cool down your car” by turning on the air conditioning and washing the car by running the hose all over it (even though that water is also hot lol). Cooling off your car that’s been sitting in the hot sun with water allows the air to actually work.
Tons of stuff like that. You need to drink cold water with electrolytes and I find everyone’s diet changes. People eat less, and eat spicier Mexican food and salt.
It’s a real special environment. I personally believe the June July August and first half of Sept heat challenges are worth the desert beauty of the rest of the year.
It is comically true how we tend to live in AC bubbles. On one hand, I completely understand. When the heat is so heavy that you can walk outside for 15 seconds, come back inside, and only then start sweating... I can't fault people for avoiding it as much as possible.
Growing up, I'd always shivver during the summer and sweat during winter. Places like schools and stores will blast their AC constantly so the entire building is the opposite of the temperature outside. Often I'll wear layers to get around it, putting on up to three shirts when going indoors for a longer period of time.
When I worked in construction for a year I learned how to safely work in 110°F heat. After that, I tried really hard to not adapt back to the colder weather, which is kind of hard when where I'm working requires me to bundle up during the summer as if it's winter because they keep it as cold as they can.
I love the state too.
I wonder what event in the near future will make the Google searchs for "wet bulb temperature" sky-rocket...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet-bulb_temperature
This seems anathema to a location that is under threat of not enough water. If a city is willing to slow down construction because they don't have to water to support the growth, I can't imagine this is an accepted practice that you are actually promoting.
Yes, you will splash some water on your car to make it tolerable to drive.
Also after a week or two over 115, 110 feels absolutely "cool" to us here in Phoenix. We really do say "Hey, today the high is only 110! Fall is coming!".
You remind me of the neighbor's teenage kid I once saw cleaning cut grass from the drive way with a garden hose sprayer. I still remember his dad realizing his failure in raising a kid with common sense and explaining what a waste in water it was, how expensive it was, and just illogical of a decision it was. I feel I've now become that dad.
I’m sure many think it’s illogical to try to live on Phoenix. That’s alright, it’s our choice.
I upgraded to the retractable ones that attach to the either side of the windshield. They were never put in the trunk ever again
Architecture is just catching up to optimizing for shade. It’s really a shame. Parking lots are now being covered by solar panels, which is a great use of space.
OTOH, it's 93F and 63% humidity in Austin on June 1, 2024. It was 105-110F in 2023 for 4 months last summer. While tacos are the city's official food, but it's harder to find good authentic Mexican or Tex-Mex that isn't gourmet or hipsterized. Near San Anton has some fantastic authentic Mexican and Tex-Mex restaurants.
Yep. Heat is a great way to go on a "diet".
I keep a gallon bottle of water in the fridge premixed with sugar-free electrolyte powder. Cheaper than buying colored water and less calories.
In a place like Phoenix that would/could mean the world shutting down 2PM-5PM instead of 2AM-5AM. 2AM should be when everybody is going out after dinner.
Covid only made this worse with the loss of 24h shopping, and 11PM cutoffs.
I can imagine this will become a real issue once water becomes more scarce...
Imagine thinking the only reason people opt to live in Arizona over California were lack of housing supply. Not one iota to do with flag colors.
It’s sad to see retirees burning their retirement savings to move to Florida, only to return to civilization when their health fails, or dying early for lack of care.
I can't tell if this is sincere or PhD-level trolling. Bravo.
I had a chance to move to the SW area a long time ago, I said no thank you, I do not mind the snow. If the heat there hit me, I would probably end up in the ICU.
Now where I am, it does not get that cold in the winter. I think this past winter, the ave temp was about 35 -40 F (2-5C). Decades ago it was common to have a few days with a high of around -10F (-23C). I do not even remember the last time we had temps below 0 (-17C).
And yet, people and companies are still moving to that area. Will be fun times in that area in say 10 years. Glad half the people in the US is doing all they can to increase C02. If you are young and live below the Mason Dixon Line, time to think about moving north.
Make that all of the people, even you.
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PYt0SDnrBE
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_the_Hill