Since before WW2 when the Israeli nation didn't exist? (Yes, I'm aware of the historical context of "Israel", but the nation as we know it today didn't exist until 1948).
It ramped up drastically only a few decades before, but yes, Revisionist Zionism is a religious extremist movement that spent and still is spending a lot of effort and money to justify the existence of their own exclusive country that never existed in the shape they claimed it to be. (Which is the area of Palestine AND Jordan. I drew this conclusion largely from reading too much Wikipedia)
Now that it exists though, I'm afraid we must accept that and work with the new status quo. We can't just displace or kill a couple of thousands people for historic justice, right?
Edit: Downvote me, I'm endlessly pissed over the hypocrisy of my own country on the matter.
A Zionist influence campaign targeting western governments and public opinion with the aim form an Israeli state predates WW2 and has been going on for over a century. Not sure you're referring to with your scare quoted 'they'.
1. There is no longer a “Zionist influence campaign… with the aim of forming an Israeli state” that has been over for, I think about 75 years. So again, what are you suggesting “has been going on since before World War II”?
2. Your use of the phrase “targeting western governments” is interesting. Many or most of the people “targeting” these governments were citizens of those countries. You make it sound like the Zionists were some sort of outside influencers. This is telling.
3. You still have not clarified what “evidence” your link provides for your claim. Making a claim (especially a vague one like yours) then linking to a long article as “proof” without specifying how it supports your claim is a lazy, hackneyed trick on online forums. It looks like that’s what you’re doing here.
4. Don’t be coy, you know precisely the “they” you’re referring to.
1. What are you suggesting “has been going on since before World War II”?
Before Israel's formation as a state -- a campaign to influence public opinion and policy in favor of that formation.
Afterwards -- a campaign to defend its unlawful and unrecognized territorial expansion; to deny its atrocities (from 1948 through the present day) for as long as possible; and to keep U.S. military and financial support flowing, no matter what Israel does.
And as an added cherry on top: an astonishly successful campaign to brand essentially any serious criticism of Israel's policies or its founding ideology as antisemitic.
4. Don’t be coy, you know precisely the “they” you’re referring to.
There is no “they”, scare-quoted or otherwise, in the commenter's posts in this thread (except when they're quoting from yours). However we see that you've introduced this formulation twice now.
Perhaps you'd care to explain why you are doubling down on this rather peculiar misrepresentation of the commenter's words.
It certainly has, the news to me is that mainstream publications are actually talking about it without framing the entire thing as an 'antisemitic canard'
The US public's opinion on Israel is the most divided that it's EVER been. Given that we're they're #1 ally and probably one of the reasons they haven't been wiped off the face of the planet, there's a strong incentive for them to try to shape US discourse in their favor. Agreed with other commenter here, not sure how this is news.
It just seems a little strange that when other countries try to influence our political discourse with these astroturfing methods (Russia for example) it's met with vicious opposition, and rightfully so, but when Israel does it people just shrug and say its not news
>None of the groups identified in this story’s reporting have registered under the Foreign Agents Registration Act (Fara).
>“There’s a built-in assumption that there’s nothing at all weird about viewing the US as sort of an open field for Israel to operate in, that there are no limitations,”
Why does Israel have such a privileged status with respect to other nations? If it were any other country, US news organizations and politicians would be up in arms about a foreign government directly manipulating US public opinion. But this one country is special. Why?
>Georgia’s governor, Brian Kemp, signed legislation that revised Georgia’s hate crime statute to include the IHRA definition of antisemitism in January, making it possible for certain criticisms of Israel to lead to increased prison sentences.
Isn't this eroding free speech in the US? How is it constitutional that saying something about the politics of a foreign government could lead to increased prison sentences for US citizens?
It's a good question for Americans: what do you think would be happening if Israeli tactics to influence the USA would be coming from China? Or even the UK, an ally?
Would there be politicians changing laws, flags of these countries being displayed around major cities, etc.?
>Why does Israel have such a privileged status with respect to other nations? If it were any other country, US news organizations and politicians would be up in arms about a foreign government directly manipulating US public opinion. But this one country is special. Why?
Religion, mostly. Despite its secular and liberal pretenses, the US and in particular the US government is deeply influenced by Conservative and Evangelical Christian interests, among which support for Israel is seen as a necessity to bring about the apocalypse and second coming of Jesus. Many Americans see themselves and their nation as metaphysically blessed, founded by and given a destiny by God, and see Israel with a similar metaphysical lens. Therefore, Israel can never been seen as merely a state. Everything it does is entangled in America's own sense of cosmic self-importance and destiny.
Also, Israel is good money for the American military industrial complex. Setting aside the many Americans who ultimately believe a global war allied with Israel against the Islamic world is inevitable (as per their interpretation of the Book of Revelations) and their influence on American foreign policy, the mere presence of Israel as an ally creates enough chaos and discontent to fund America's war racket in that part of the world indefinitely.
>Isn't this eroding free speech in the US? How is it constitutional that saying something about the politics of a foreign government could lead to increased prison sentences for US citizens?
It's particularly weird when you consider that antisemitism and racism are often given a full-throated defense by Americans in the name of freedom of speech, a nation that proudly declares the Klan can march in the streets and Mein Kampf can be bought in bookstores, but public opposition to the policies of the state of Israel - opposition by a public which includes many Jews - results in the swiftest and most pervasive crackdown on free speech that I've seen in my lifetime. Or at the very least since right after 9/11.
>Despite its secular and liberal pretenses, the US and in particular the US government is deeply influenced by Conservative and Evangelical Christian interests
Okay so I buy this premise for sure, but what about the other part of the political spectrum? Why aren’t CNN, MSNBC, ABC etc covering this? And why aren’t liberal politicians up in arms about it?
Conservatives are only half of the spectrum and I understand their religious motivation, but the other half also seems to be extremely pro-Israel. All except maybe that one senator from Minnesota seem fully in agreement with the conservatives on the issue.
That's the entire spectrum, as far as government is concerned. I think it's a mistake to assume the left is any less religious (or willing to pander to religion) than the right, or less invested in American imperialism or the military industrial complex. Both sides have to cater to the same systemic interests to maintain power, after all. Our current Democratic President is pro military, pro cop, pro-establishment and staunchly pro Israel, thus so is his party. Most of where the parties differ (or claim to differ) are social issues that don't really threaten the status quo.
We all live in our bubbles and I can't speak to what the mainstream media is doing because I don't really interact with it. On the other hand I see plenty of leftists online who are staunchly anti-Israel, for whatever that's worth.
But speaking of the American left, there seems to be a deep seated fear of being seen as anti-Semitic that causes a lot of people to hold off on expressing themselves, when they don't have the internet between themselves and social consequence. Unfortunately, criticism of Israel does tend to overlap with anti-Semitism so many people simply may not want to take the risk.
Uh oh, someone's trying to think! You know why. We all know why. But stating it out loud makes you a bad man.
Better to just nod along and pretend it's all OK, especially at work, especially if you're not posting anonymously. And remember to be extra furious at Russia in your comments when someone reminds us that Russia spent 100k in "both sides" Facebook ads in 2015 (an act of foreign interference so ignominous, MSM ink will never stop spilling ink about it). It's what's expected of all of us.
I’ve been surprised how brazen it’s been. For a little while almost every Twitter login I’d see a promoted tweet from the official Israel account making some statement or other about the war.
That I can tolerate but I found the same account promoting outrage about US campus protests to be distasteful. That’s a domestic US issue and trying to influence it from the outside feels inappropriate, not to mention leans into a bunch of antisemitic tropes!
Concerns, sure. But Israel is a staunch US ally, trying to directly influence what US citizens think about domestic events feels like a brazen thing for an ally to do.
Ally doesn't mean you stop your intelligence services against them. It simply means there are things you agree about, currently, and agree to do. Everyone is always jockeying for power. No one stops trying to influence their allies.
Yeah, I'm aware. I didn't say I'm surprised Israel is trying to influence US public opinion, I said I'm surprised how brazen they are being about it. Using your intelligence services behind the scenes is very different to paying to publicly promote tweets from your official national account.
Because they're supposed to be our allies and respect our institutions? No reasonable person in the US is comfortable with foreign governments meddling in our politics in any way, just because some of our adversaries have gotten away with it is not some tacit endorsement of it. If Israel is going to behave like an adversary then why should we maintain the pretense of being allies at all? Clearly they just see us as a blunt instrument to beat their regional rivals with and nothing more.
> And US clearly doesn't see it as a hostile action
I doubt that. I think they do see it as a hostile action but one they can do little about (or at least isn't worth doing anything about). But again, they're an adversary. Adversarial behavior is to be expected.
> So, if Israel's enemies are doing this and US doesn't see it as something bad, is there a single reason why Israel shouldn't do it as well?
Because Israel is an ally? I feel like I'm being pretty clear about that point. Israel has an absolute ton of channels of communication available to the US government that adversaries do not. An ally ignoring those channels and instead appealing to the US population directly strikes me as quite brazen.
Except that we have had clear proof for one, and just hand wavy "they are doing it too!! The Iranians or the qataris or whatever!!" for the other. We also know that Israel has army units dedicated to this. Like, it's well documented even from Israeli sources
So yes, it's whatboutism but even worse, it's putting those two on the same level when they absolutely are not. What's the Iranian or Qatari equivalent of AIPAC?
What? So do we just include all donations to colleges in general? What does it have to do with student protests or the current conflict? And I was talking about foreign influence on the current israel-gaza conflict. We have tons of sources that show that the Israeli government is behind a lot of social media operations to influence general opinion, spread fake news and generally operate a propaganda campaign on Americans.
I agree that some foreign powers also do the same ( Russia). The difference is that one is called out and treated liked an enemy state, while the other is supported at all levels by the us government and Congress. Even then, for the current conflict Israel is basically not even comparable with any other nation in terms of pushing propaganda and bot/smearing/astroturfing campaigns.
If anything, it is a bit funny that Israel is doing what is explicitly being referred to as hostile actions in your articles. I guess I agree that we should treat Israel like we treat Iran or Russia but I'm not sure that was your point.
All I'm doing here is recounting my personal experience.
> When the USA is debating policy towards a smaller country, any country in this position does everything they can to sway opinion in their favour.
Perhaps, but I can think of no other time when I've logged onto social media to see a promoted post by the official account of a US ally aiming to influence my opinion of a US domestic issue. Maybe my memory is faulty and there are many other examples. If so I'd be more than happy to be corrected, I'm genuinely curious.
I read about half the article before giving up, but is there any information what Israeli officials actually did to shape US discourse? Besides having meetings.
Nothing special, and an exceeding amount is above board. Everyone is playing the same game, using mostly the same tactics. Get wealthy people on board, use that to get policy makers on board while buying up advertising to target and sway people one way or the other.
All foreign powers will try to do the same thing, through the legal channels, and the not so legal channels. The current order enforced on the back of the US dollar is simply too powerful to not do that. Americans are broadly naive about this, so it's relatively easy to "shock" them into caring about it.
"It included 80 programs already under way for advocacy efforts “to be done in the ‘Concert’ way”, he said.
The “Concert” remark referred to a sprawling relaunch of a controversial Israeli government program initially known as Kela Shlomo, designed to carry out what Israel called “mass consciousness activities” targeted largely at the US and Europe. Concert, now known as Voices of Israel, previously worked with groups spearheading a campaign to pass so-called “anti-BDS” state laws that penalize Americans for engaging in boycotts or other non-violent protests of Israel.
Its latest incarnation is part of a hardline and sometimes covert operation by the Israeli government to strike back at student protests, human rights organizations and other voices of dissent."
To me, the article is littered with detailed concrete examples of how Israel has sought to suppress and manipulate US public opinion and prevent or dampen normal democratic discussion, protest and actions. The above quote is in the opening few paragraphs.
> worked with groups spearheading a campaign to pass so-called “anti-BDS” state laws
What kind of groups did they work with? What kind of work did they do with them? For all I know they're funneling money to non-profits owned by family members of government officials.
Interesting article! Spells out in detail the different tactics used such as advertising, partnership with other organizations, policy/law lobbying, content management partnerships etc. that Israel used. Also interesting in terms of phrasing used, as the wording would be very different if say China was found doing these activities.
A different article (What everyone gets wrong about the 2015 Ashley Madison scandal - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40786891) gives a lot more context to this story about which many commenters say it is no news at all. Yes, it's not, because the Israelis "have been doing this for decades".
But... (and I'll go to the other article)... "But that isn’t a new story. People have been trying to have affairs with strangers for thousands of years. Ashley Madison was never really about that. Avid Life Media, its parent company, wasn’t in the business of sex, it was in the business of bots. Its site became a prototype for what social media platforms such as Facebook are becoming: places so packed with AI-generated nonsense that they feel like spam cages, or information prisons where the only messages that get through are auto-generated ads."
Pro tip for reading an article that concerns Israel: compare and get context. Israel is often held up as a boogeyman even when it compares similarly to other countries. For example, I could say “Israel has a higher rate of incarceration than China!” and while (according to Wikipedia) that’s true, it’s also true for 90+ other states and territories. Israel sounds uniquely bad in the first telling, but when you contextualize you see that they are actual around the middle of the pack. No more boogeyman.
Context is terrible for the boogeyman narrative, so it’s usually left out.
In this case, the accusation is that Israel attempts to influence US opinion. Do other countries do this? In 2020 the US department of education said it uncovered ‘$6.6bn in previously unreported gifts from countries including Qatar, China, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. It said this figure could be "significantly underestimated".’[0] $6.6b in secret funding from mostly anti-democratic countries, just to a few universities. How does this story about Israel sound now, in the light of more context? Context tends to disrupt the “Israel the unique boogeyman” narrative.
Does the guardian story include any context about how other countries try to influence US opinion, or what is typical? If not, why not?
tl;dr: seek context, especially in stories about boogeyman Israel.
54 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 126 ms ] threadhttps://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-97...
Now that it exists though, I'm afraid we must accept that and work with the new status quo. We can't just displace or kill a couple of thousands people for historic justice, right?
Edit: Downvote me, I'm endlessly pissed over the hypocrisy of my own country on the matter.
Your claim is vague and spooky. Please clarify what you think “they” have been doing.
2. Your use of the phrase “targeting western governments” is interesting. Many or most of the people “targeting” these governments were citizens of those countries. You make it sound like the Zionists were some sort of outside influencers. This is telling.
3. You still have not clarified what “evidence” your link provides for your claim. Making a claim (especially a vague one like yours) then linking to a long article as “proof” without specifying how it supports your claim is a lazy, hackneyed trick on online forums. It looks like that’s what you’re doing here.
4. Don’t be coy, you know precisely the “they” you’re referring to.
Before Israel's formation as a state -- a campaign to influence public opinion and policy in favor of that formation.
Afterwards -- a campaign to defend its unlawful and unrecognized territorial expansion; to deny its atrocities (from 1948 through the present day) for as long as possible; and to keep U.S. military and financial support flowing, no matter what Israel does.
And as an added cherry on top: an astonishly successful campaign to brand essentially any serious criticism of Israel's policies or its founding ideology as antisemitic.
4. Don’t be coy, you know precisely the “they” you’re referring to.
There is no “they”, scare-quoted or otherwise, in the commenter's posts in this thread (except when they're quoting from yours). However we see that you've introduced this formulation twice now.
Perhaps you'd care to explain why you are doubling down on this rather peculiar misrepresentation of the commenter's words.
Don't be coy now.
Apples and oranges.
But judging from its actions it isn't exactly a friend of the United States either.
That's why these actions draw scrutiny.
>“There’s a built-in assumption that there’s nothing at all weird about viewing the US as sort of an open field for Israel to operate in, that there are no limitations,”
Why does Israel have such a privileged status with respect to other nations? If it were any other country, US news organizations and politicians would be up in arms about a foreign government directly manipulating US public opinion. But this one country is special. Why?
>Georgia’s governor, Brian Kemp, signed legislation that revised Georgia’s hate crime statute to include the IHRA definition of antisemitism in January, making it possible for certain criticisms of Israel to lead to increased prison sentences.
Isn't this eroding free speech in the US? How is it constitutional that saying something about the politics of a foreign government could lead to increased prison sentences for US citizens?
Would there be politicians changing laws, flags of these countries being displayed around major cities, etc.?
Religion, mostly. Despite its secular and liberal pretenses, the US and in particular the US government is deeply influenced by Conservative and Evangelical Christian interests, among which support for Israel is seen as a necessity to bring about the apocalypse and second coming of Jesus. Many Americans see themselves and their nation as metaphysically blessed, founded by and given a destiny by God, and see Israel with a similar metaphysical lens. Therefore, Israel can never been seen as merely a state. Everything it does is entangled in America's own sense of cosmic self-importance and destiny.
Also, Israel is good money for the American military industrial complex. Setting aside the many Americans who ultimately believe a global war allied with Israel against the Islamic world is inevitable (as per their interpretation of the Book of Revelations) and their influence on American foreign policy, the mere presence of Israel as an ally creates enough chaos and discontent to fund America's war racket in that part of the world indefinitely.
>Isn't this eroding free speech in the US? How is it constitutional that saying something about the politics of a foreign government could lead to increased prison sentences for US citizens?
It's particularly weird when you consider that antisemitism and racism are often given a full-throated defense by Americans in the name of freedom of speech, a nation that proudly declares the Klan can march in the streets and Mein Kampf can be bought in bookstores, but public opposition to the policies of the state of Israel - opposition by a public which includes many Jews - results in the swiftest and most pervasive crackdown on free speech that I've seen in my lifetime. Or at the very least since right after 9/11.
Okay so I buy this premise for sure, but what about the other part of the political spectrum? Why aren’t CNN, MSNBC, ABC etc covering this? And why aren’t liberal politicians up in arms about it?
Conservatives are only half of the spectrum and I understand their religious motivation, but the other half also seems to be extremely pro-Israel. All except maybe that one senator from Minnesota seem fully in agreement with the conservatives on the issue.
We all live in our bubbles and I can't speak to what the mainstream media is doing because I don't really interact with it. On the other hand I see plenty of leftists online who are staunchly anti-Israel, for whatever that's worth.
But speaking of the American left, there seems to be a deep seated fear of being seen as anti-Semitic that causes a lot of people to hold off on expressing themselves, when they don't have the internet between themselves and social consequence. Unfortunately, criticism of Israel does tend to overlap with anti-Semitism so many people simply may not want to take the risk.
Uh oh, someone's trying to think! You know why. We all know why. But stating it out loud makes you a bad man.
Better to just nod along and pretend it's all OK, especially at work, especially if you're not posting anonymously. And remember to be extra furious at Russia in your comments when someone reminds us that Russia spent 100k in "both sides" Facebook ads in 2015 (an act of foreign interference so ignominous, MSM ink will never stop spilling ink about it). It's what's expected of all of us.
That I can tolerate but I found the same account promoting outrage about US campus protests to be distasteful. That’s a domestic US issue and trying to influence it from the outside feels inappropriate, not to mention leans into a bunch of antisemitic tropes!
I doubt that. I think they do see it as a hostile action but one they can do little about (or at least isn't worth doing anything about). But again, they're an adversary. Adversarial behavior is to be expected.
> So, if Israel's enemies are doing this and US doesn't see it as something bad, is there a single reason why Israel shouldn't do it as well?
Because Israel is an ally? I feel like I'm being pretty clear about that point. Israel has an absolute ton of channels of communication available to the US government that adversaries do not. An ally ignoring those channels and instead appealing to the US population directly strikes me as quite brazen.
So yes, it's whatboutism but even worse, it's putting those two on the same level when they absolutely are not. What's the Iranian or Qatari equivalent of AIPAC?
Are you saying that we don't have proof for the other? Because there is plenty.
https://thehill.com/opinion/education/3931995-authoritarian-...
https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/NCRI-Report_T...
You can literally go to US government site and see donations to US colleges:
https://sites.ed.gov/foreigngifts/
Right on the first page, the only countries are Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.
I agree that some foreign powers also do the same ( Russia). The difference is that one is called out and treated liked an enemy state, while the other is supported at all levels by the us government and Congress. Even then, for the current conflict Israel is basically not even comparable with any other nation in terms of pushing propaganda and bot/smearing/astroturfing campaigns.
If anything, it is a bit funny that Israel is doing what is explicitly being referred to as hostile actions in your articles. I guess I agree that we should treat Israel like we treat Iran or Russia but I'm not sure that was your point.
> When the USA is debating policy towards a smaller country, any country in this position does everything they can to sway opinion in their favour.
Perhaps, but I can think of no other time when I've logged onto social media to see a promoted post by the official account of a US ally aiming to influence my opinion of a US domestic issue. Maybe my memory is faulty and there are many other examples. If so I'd be more than happy to be corrected, I'm genuinely curious.
All foreign powers will try to do the same thing, through the legal channels, and the not so legal channels. The current order enforced on the back of the US dollar is simply too powerful to not do that. Americans are broadly naive about this, so it's relatively easy to "shock" them into caring about it.
The “Concert” remark referred to a sprawling relaunch of a controversial Israeli government program initially known as Kela Shlomo, designed to carry out what Israel called “mass consciousness activities” targeted largely at the US and Europe. Concert, now known as Voices of Israel, previously worked with groups spearheading a campaign to pass so-called “anti-BDS” state laws that penalize Americans for engaging in boycotts or other non-violent protests of Israel.
Its latest incarnation is part of a hardline and sometimes covert operation by the Israeli government to strike back at student protests, human rights organizations and other voices of dissent."
To me, the article is littered with detailed concrete examples of how Israel has sought to suppress and manipulate US public opinion and prevent or dampen normal democratic discussion, protest and actions. The above quote is in the opening few paragraphs.
What kind of groups did they work with? What kind of work did they do with them? For all I know they're funneling money to non-profits owned by family members of government officials.
There is nothing concrete here.
There are several examples in the article that answer your earlier questions.
But... (and I'll go to the other article)... "But that isn’t a new story. People have been trying to have affairs with strangers for thousands of years. Ashley Madison was never really about that. Avid Life Media, its parent company, wasn’t in the business of sex, it was in the business of bots. Its site became a prototype for what social media platforms such as Facebook are becoming: places so packed with AI-generated nonsense that they feel like spam cages, or information prisons where the only messages that get through are auto-generated ads."
Context is terrible for the boogeyman narrative, so it’s usually left out.
In this case, the accusation is that Israel attempts to influence US opinion. Do other countries do this? In 2020 the US department of education said it uncovered ‘$6.6bn in previously unreported gifts from countries including Qatar, China, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. It said this figure could be "significantly underestimated".’[0] $6.6b in secret funding from mostly anti-democratic countries, just to a few universities. How does this story about Israel sound now, in the light of more context? Context tends to disrupt the “Israel the unique boogeyman” narrative.
Does the guardian story include any context about how other countries try to influence US opinion, or what is typical? If not, why not?
tl;dr: seek context, especially in stories about boogeyman Israel.
0: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51481396