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Good. DEI is a hangover from 2020 that, aside from buying some cheap publicity points, didn't do anything for anyone (except the DEI activists themselves).

The very theory that skin-deep diversity helps businesses grow is based on extremely flimsy observations. It is likely non-reproducible. Notably, the most important competitors of US businesses in East Asia don't even pretend to care about diversity, and they thrive.

If an opponent completely ignores something that you worship and isn't stricken by the gods for his insolence, chances are that your gods are false, or, at best, very weak.

Maybe there's more to having values than competitive advantage. Just a thought.
What values? Those that say that a company should strive to achive certain ratio of black and white employees, no matter their real competencies?
For the neoliberal mind, values are just vibes.
to say that a company should be aware of brospeak in their job postings if they want to have women applying for jobs. to say that a company shouldn't just rely on internal referrals if they want to diversify teams.

your suggestion that diverse hiring equals less competent hiring is offensive.

"your suggestion that diverse hiring equals less competent hiring is offensive."

Well, so was suggestion that the Earth revolves around the Sun, once.

What really interests me is if it is true, not if it is offensive. Truth > Conformism, at least if you don't want to end up with an ossified society.

where are your facts to back this up then?
Facts to back what up, exactly?

GP said two statements: 1) the Earth revolves around the Sun and 2) Truth > Conformism

You are asking to facts about that?

I guess the idea is that average black worker is just as good as white worker, so why do you have 3 black workers and 50 white workers?

From what I have seen at work, gender or color of the skin has very little to do with how good worker someone is.

I agree with you that gender or color of the skin has nothing to do with how well can someone write code. Both gender nor skin color should not be any factor in hiring.
> so why do you have 3 black workers and 50 white workers?

Because race has correlation with low-income communities that prevent people from going to colleges. The pool of competent black employees will just be smaller. I’d argue that’s a state problem, not for a company to solve.

It’s like a DEI recruiter wanted to have 50-50 men and women in software development at a company I worked for. I asked if there’re 50-50 of men and women in the total jobseeker pool. The answer was no(fewer women), but the person was determined to play a zero-sum game with other companies. It’s insane.

Any maybe the types of DEI initiatives promoted and implemented over the last few are worse for actually achieving DEI. Just a thought
The Amish have a very strong set of values, but don't expect the next Google to come from them.

And I don't think that Microsoft or anyone else held DEI values deeply anyway. Corporations being the ultimate turncoats, they just did what was demanded of them in the heat of the moment.

If, in 2040, there comes a strong wave of people identifying as pineapples, expect all the CEOs to wear pineapple suits for one summer or so. Except Musk, he will don a potato suit on purpose and move the HQ to Martian Sands.

Plus it was always illogical to tell the most successful corporations that DEI is essential to become one of the most successful corporations and that they aren't doing DEI right.
> If an opponent completely ignores something that you worship and isn't stricken by the gods for his insolence, chances are that your gods are false, or, at best, very weak.

That's one of the best theological arguments I've seen in some time.

A strict ordering of candidates by merit quantified however you please followed by selection of top n candidates ought to on average look exactly like candidate pool however since we are garbage at ranking people it often looks like the existing powers that be in culture gender and color.

DEI provides impetus to select or at least give additional attention to candidates that otherwise might be overlooked.

To put it simpler if you have to hire 100 people out of 1000 and 10% of your qualified candidate pool is black you likely have 10 qualified black people. DEI means you won't hire 99 white dudes and instead will try to select from the entire population.

The statistical existence of the 10 qualitied black folks means that a diverse selection will on average trade someone from >100 ranking for someone <100 (better) ranking improving fitness.

For smaller sizes a fair selection is more likely to diverge from population and your team of 5 doesn't have to look like a burger king commercial with one of each kind of kid but its on average apt to say fairness improves fitness and I say that as a white dude.

That makes sense, you are just the right amount of racist when hiring
No what it means is that instead of hiring bob's friend another white dude and then james that guys best bud you pull some resumes and do some interviews in hopes of not missing out on qualified people.
Issues with nepotism aside, I bet hiring on candidate merit (blind) would require not flexing your racism. You're willing to discard candidates that don't meet the skin color you prefer, that's some heavy stuff.
There is no blind hiring or objective measurement of merit in most jobs just a biased subjective affair easily given to pre-judgment.
"DEI provides impetus..."

DEI also provides an impetus to hire token minorities, even if underqualified, because the DEI team demands results and will label your explanation that you didn't really get your hands on a good black programmer as systemic racism. Or perhaps even your own personal racism.

From where I live (Czechia), we still remember old Communist Czechoslovakia. Late stage Communism was all about impressive statistics - on paper. Ticking the important boxes in the form was very important. Of course, the economy collapsed, because the real problems couldn't be papered over by impressive statistics forever.

DEI in American context looks similar to that, only America is more free and the corporations are more willing to shed the concept once it proved useless.

DEI in America looks like happy little video trainings about the importance of diversity, a poster, and a person who talks to higher up folks about the importance of hiring qualified candidates of all stripes. It is mostly a soft push in reality in the direction of diversity.

Whereas Czechia is very humongous racially and indeed culturally America is only 58% non-hispanic whites. 42% NEARLY half of your qualified candidates are for all jobs are actually non-white. Diversity is far from useless.

> Notably, the most important competitors of US businesses in East Asia don't even pretend to care about diversity, and they thrive.

Their workforce pools are wildly different, and the only diversity they could realistically try to achieve would be to hire more women; the fact that they don't is part of the institutional sexism that is one of the main reasons driving those countries on a downward spiral of crumbling birth rates and maybe one day to extinction. Is that the best example to follow?

What's really revealing is the herd mentality the whole tech industry seems to have: in 2020, everyone had to have a (specialized) DEI team, now they are (apparently) no longer needed, although not much has really changed. Same with hiring like there was no tomorrow a few years ago, and now layoffs. Same with encouraging remote working during the pandemic, and now trying to push through return to office mandates, no matter if it makes sense (for the individual, for the team or for the company) or not. Wonder what's next?
Wasn't DEI being forced into corporate America by the government and by large funds like BlackRock and such?
No one can speak on behalf of all corporate America, but I didn't see that to be the case at all in tech.
It depends, yes ESG was pushing these agendas, but I’m not sure how much influence blackrock and vanguard have in the tech sector.

Although it seems many in the tech sector agreed with ESG and implemented it anyway.

Maybe to an extent, but I'm pretty sure they willingly adopted the garb of this ideology because it aligned with a vocal portion of their workforce, so the ideology could be used as a substitute for financial compensation. Basically a free way to make workers happier without having to pay them more.
What has changed is the supply of developers/tech-people and their price tag.

Additionally with the advancement of AI, humans aren’t that unique in tech any longer.

Corporations can basically afford to treat their employees as they like and not as those employees would like.

DEI is a nice thing to wave at the face of prospective new hires when you're competing for talent to show how much you care about them at the workplace, but if you're not struggling to hire talent, maybe you can only focus on the "you have a chance to pay rent" aspect of your workplace.
It was politically favourable to have a progressive-leaning appearance during the current US administration. They're expecting for Trump and the alt-right to win this election, and they're adapting to the new landscape. Luckily for them it will be easier to align to their actual values this time around /s.

I doubt they ever expected for these programs to work, like Shell never expected for their wind farms to bring any actual profit[1]. It was mostly a marketing expense. Can we call it... Progressive-washing?

[1]https://www.power-technology.com/news/shell-jobcuts-offshore...

The same goes for tech-fads like blockchain, VR, and AI.
Funny (and also great) how these ideologically insane and unproductive cultural trends are the first to fall to the wayside once the economic conditions worsen and interest rates rise.

I don't like being gas-lit by my employer. I prefer the honesty that they only care about money. That way we all know where we stand.

> ideologically insane and unproductive cultural trends

There are certainly some cartoonish outcomes (like my company no longer calls team meetings "All Hands"... in case, you know, someone doesn't have hands).

But there's nothing insane about a company thinking about what role it can play towards helping people up. I would be happy if my company donated computing equipment and resources to disadvantaged communities around the country. Having grown up in Appalachia with little computing resources nearby, my envy when I learned people my age had access to Sparc Stations and giant tech bookstores...

Just curious, how do they call these meetings now?
All Employee
If an All Hands meeting sounds borderline boring "All Employee" meetings sound worse than school on a weekend!! j/k but they definitely gone way to far at your company... i feel for you lol
At Microsoft they are still "All hands" meetings.
There's something insane about a company gas-lighting employees to believe the company shares their political causes (it doesn't) as a form of ideological compensation in lieu of financial compensation. Instead of paying workers more to make the workers happy to work for the company, they got this idea to pander to the worker's politics instead.

A corporation is not a person, they don't have people beliefs. Corporations only care about money and putting on a show of having people-like beliefs was only ever about saving money.

> But there's nothing insane about a company thinking about what role it can play towards helping people up

That may be true but that does not negate the fact that 'DEI' has been and still is a divisive 'praxis' (to use a word out of the underlying ideology's playbook) which intentionally divides people into an ever widening fractal of identity groups and increases distrust and envy between those groups by pushing a victim/victimiser narrative. Where the motto on the Great Seal of the United States reads E pluribus unum (out of many, one) [1] DEI aims to achieve the opposite: out of one, many.

DEI orders 'we, the people' into a hierarchy with the 'oppressed' on top and the 'oppressors' below them. This is an ever ongoing process since identity categories are themselves subject to the same 'intersectional' narrative, e.g. 'black lives matter' is one-upped by 'black trans lives matter' etc.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_pluribus_unum

> But there's nothing insane about a company thinking about what role it can play towards helping people up.

However the criteria is often reduced to race and sexual orientation. A truly effective approach would take to much resources.

This title is misleading. Microsoft did not say DEI is no longer business critical. The disgruntled lead of a fired DEI team accused the company of no longer considering it business critical.

Microsoft's statement was the opposite, "Our D&I commitments remain unchanged [...]".

Interesting they call it D&I now. I guess the E was always a bit awkward considering the CEO earns $40 million.

Sigh.

First of all, Nadella has created a trillion dollars of value over his leadership. His pay packet of $40m is nothing.

Second, the E was never about equality of pay, or fairness. It’s equity. It was about quotas in hiring and equality of outcome, meaning active discrimination against certain groups. Which does cross a very dangerous line.

An untrained chimp would have created 2 trillion dollars of value durring the same period sitting in that seat.
Why didn’t IBM, oracle, or google or apple do it then?

Or you? You do realise you are saying, if you haven’t done it, you are less than an untrained chimp yourself, just by the logic of your statement?

> Or you?

Because I didnt take over Microsoft, a 40 year old company, with monopolies firmly entrenched in 2014.

A lot off other companies are monopolies in their fields.
That is no guarantee of future results.

Nokia, another company which was very strong a decade ago, is de facto gone.

This type of comment is not for HN
The E doesn't even stand for Equality, it stands for Equity. If it meant the same thing they'd just use the word more people are familiar with, but they specifically don't because they do not mean equality.

Achieving "equity" means they need/want to treat people unequally.

That's what the post you responded to said, did you mean to respond to someone else?
I didn't speculate on whether or not he earns or deserves it. It's just antithetical to the concept of equity as used in DEI, which is roughly equal outcome despite unequal circumstance.

You might tell me here why in fact it does not actually apply here because reasons, if so fine I'm not an expert on DEI matters. But that would not be so relevant to my point, which is common understanding and concepts people have around that word potentially having difficulty coexisting with highly stratified company like MS.

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> First of all, Nadella has created a trillion dollars of value over his leadership

Who built Thebes of the seven gates?

In the books you will find the names of kings.

Did the kings haul up the lumps of rock?

It is much harder to build something vast than it is to haul a lump of rock up a hill.

Nadella may not be carrying rocks but he's the one figuring out which rocks and where they should go.

This is just the reflection of a bullshit culture that gives outsized importance to executives.
Why is Microsoft winning the ai race, not google who everyone said is best placed?

Was this a collective decision by thousands of Microsoft employees, to go in this direction?

Is it thousands of google employees fault they missed it?

By your logic it is absolutely google employees fault, not executives… really??

The bullshit culture is actually thinking executives don’t do anything. Yet even a tiny bit of critical thinking would show you it has massive impact.

And yet, Google's CEO is not punished for "losing the AI race". Or for anything else really.

> By your logic it is absolutely google employees fault, not executives… really??

My logic is that placing an outsized importance on executives is just a way to justify inequality, when in truth they risk nothing. Even if their bets fail, it is the peons who pay the price.

I would argue that coordinating efforts of thousands of people is freakishly complicated. People aren't machines and respond to incentives in nontrivial ways.

Anyone who is physically healthy can carry a stone, but few places in the world built the pyramids.

Analogically, anyone with two hands can type something on a keyboard, the hard part is getting a useful software product out of this typing.

Even outside the commercial sphere, leaders of such complicated projects are famous, such as Linus Torvalds.

The cultures that didn't build pyramids were probably more intelligently managed, at least generally. The pyramids had no practical value, at best they were a jobs program to keep workers busy between growing seasons, but there are much better projects to work on if keeping busy is the goal (for instance, build roads, canals, irrigation trenches, etc.)
It is not as if Ancient Egypt didn't build complicated irrigation systems too.

There is survivorship bias embedded in your reply. Pyramids are extremely durable, so we can still see them and judge them. Cultures that didn't build them could well spend their money and effort on some other status symbols, which were more transient. Like huge events (balls etc.) held for the royalty.

Pyramids had a lot of value.

Ancient people were superstitious to the highest degree, and knew that victory always goes to whoever is favoured by the Gods. So, seeing these immense structures, Egypt's enemies knew that any raid on Egypt would be futile, as Egyptian gods would surely help their faithful followers who made them such magnificent gift.

> First of all, Nadella has created a trillion dollars of value over his leadership. His pay packet of $40m is nothing

Unless he was going to pay out of his pocket if he bankrupted Microsoft, that argument doesn't pass the sniff test.

Also, he has created a trillion dollars of valuation. That's not the same thing as value, just ask the Japanese property market in the 1990s. Current stock price can also entirely disconnected from reality and mid to long term future, just ask GE and Boeing.

If the AI/LLM hype dies down, a big chunk of that valuation will disappear, without anything meaningfully changing.

No, a lot of that value (and revenue, something you are missing!) was created before AI.

Azure, office 365, cloud, these were all massive to Microsoft and had created loads of value and revenue.

That isn’t a bubble.

Also AI might be hype, but it might not. Microsoft managed to get in at the right time with the right company, and is doing better than google, apple, amazon and many others.

To give no credit to Nadella is ridiculous there are so many other companies waiting to take Microsoft’s place. I find this resentful envy here on HN extremely sad and also very dishonest.

> To give no credit to Nadella

I'm giving him plenty of credit, he's the first competent CEO of Microsoft in a decade. Does that mean he deserves $40million/year while his company is laying off people to save on employee salaries? No, simple as that.

CEOs aren't some great superhumans that everything happens because of. They have a very important positions, and many CEOs have ruined or bankrupted companies through sheer incompetence, while many others have created amazing value (both societal and economic). They are not deities, they deserve prison and for their money to be seized when they commit crimes, and they don't deserve to be paid thousands of times more than the median employees that actually do the work and execute on the CEO's vision.

> I find this resentful envy here on HN extremely sad and also very dishonest.

It's disdain for sociopathy more than anything else. I personally can tell you that if I were a CEO, I would not be able to sleep at night if my company's revenue, profits and valuation are booming and I fire tens of thousands of people for no other reason than because I can and it will keep costs (that the company can easily afford) down.

I’m kinda glad that the actual definition of “deserved” is determined by the market and not individuals, and this is a good example of why. Your argument is essentially capitalism vs. anti-capitalism. While I’m all for supporting various alternative models, usually anti-capitalist folks don’t suggest anything specific, except maybe government interventions to cap CEO salaries or something like that – which is clearly just a bandaid and still leaves a bunch of loopholes.

> I personally can tell you that if I were a CEO, I would not be able to sleep at night if my company's revenue, profits and valuation are booming and I fire tens of thousands of people for no other reason than because I can and it will keep costs (that the company can easily afford) down.

No shareholders in their right mind would hire such a CEO, so your chances are pretty slim.

> he's the first competent CEO of Microsoft in a decade.

Are you seriously trying to say that Steve Ballmer was incompetent?!

The guy who bungled smartphones while having the unimaginable advantage of the business ecosystem? And the guy who was years late on cloud computing and SaaS more widely?

IMO if Ballmer had stayed on until present day, Microsoft would have become something like Oracle. Technically growing revenue, but very little substance or relevance, no new customers or new business from them, only jacking up prices.

Also, he left in 2014, a decade ago, so it was ambiguous if I'm covering him or not.

I really disagree on this. I’m not saying nadella hat no merit but: * msft was already a giant before he took over. Expanding this is not easy but it’s not like becoming a giant, very large companies have huge advantages, many of which completely unfair, which many govt are starting to try to push back on. * as stated before, it’s a one way street: if he increases Msft value, he makes millions. If he crashes msft, he makes millions, just less of them. His risk is not comparable to the risk of “normal” employees who can be laid off tomorrow.

Hence I really think the pay gap is ethically questionable.

He gets laid off to if he fails. And both he and employees get to keep what they've earned up to that point. I don't see the difference except in the size of the paypacket. Both are employees, and are owed AT MOST 30 days of work.
>size of the paypacket

that is my point. „Getting laid off“ means millions for him anyway.

CEOs often leave with millions in golden parachutes even after abject failures. Employees don't have such luxuries, especially if they fail at their jobs.
> Nadella has created a trillion dollars of value

You mean that he happened to be CEO during a period when market value increased due to a number of factors beyond his control or influence.

The post title is misleading, but the news article title is: Microsoft laid off a DEI team, and its lead wrote an internal email blasting how DEI is 'no longer business critical'
I couldn't submit it because the original title is too long
In all likelihood, DEI was never business critical.

An interesting test is whether you can state this opinion openly and still remain an employee of $big_corp.

Internally, it was always referred to as D&I. The industry tends to use the DEI term, but like so many things at Microsoft, somehow slightly different terms came into common usage.
So they were self-aware enough to leave out the E from the beginning. Good for them.
> The email says the team was eliminated because of "changing business needs" as of July 1. It's unclear how many employees were affected.

It would be interesting to know how big the team was and if similar teams existed or still exist in other countries. In Germany, "DEI" is usually part of HR. There has to be a person responsible for it by law. However, these people typically have other responsibilities too.

There is an important word in management: optics.

It matters at all levels. It means "how things look from the outside to a person not familiar with what is happening inside."

At one point, DEI was a high concern for the entire nation, and companies were compelled to do something about it. Some actually made a positive change. Many created a position or team and not much was done. Regardless of what actually happened, the optics were aligned with the priority, and that mattered too.

This happens everywhere. The security theater after 9/11 is optics. The graph that you present to your VP showing an increase in code coverage is optics. There might be valuable work also happening, but the optics are important. Without them, people would not see that you are trying to do something.

Maybe they care about diversity as much as before, but looked at what their DEI team had actually achieved and didn't find very much.
But they hosted some great parties in June! And they even updated their logo everywhere (except the middle east)!
> (except the middle east)!

Indeed. Such displays aren't meant to change what people believe, only to make people feel good by affirming what they already believe. In places where the majority don't feel that way, the display is omitted. It's cynical pandering, not earnest activism.

I remember in the last year or two, a lot of fury about a mod that de-DEIed a AAA video game.

People were asking what kind of monster would do such a thing and it was pulled from the hosting site, but it turned out the modder just enabled the Mideast localization for American versions of the game, to make the streets of NYC more decked out with US flags than they were in the US localization.

So, who’s the monster? The modder for distributing a patch which flipped an internal switch in the game, or the people who put the switch there in the first place?

DEI: diversity, equity and inclusion. Is it just me not knowing (article didn't define it)?
It was never a genuine concern, and just covering their backs given the social climate. It's cute that this person took it seriously.
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