I just saw a report that Russia bulldozed down a memorial to Holodomor in occupied Ukraine. This is just one datapoint to consider for the useful idiots who believe that Russia is the victim of nAtO eXpAnTioNiSm.
No one real believes it's Russian expansion anymore.
Russia recently mentioned it themselves they they had no problems with Finland and Sweden joining it.
Regarding Russian imperialism. It's quite the coincidence Russia is more interested in the resource rich area of Ukraine and they started "the little green men" invasion a year after Ukraine setup gas exploration on Crimea ( with shell)
> No one real believes it's Russian expansion anymore.
I'm not sure who you're considering as "no one", but looks like you're trying to speak for a lot of people.
Just because Russia failed to deter Finland and Sweden to join, doesn't mean that they didn't, or don't have major problems with it.
In fact it was not only a major grievance, it was part of Russia's ultimatum in December 2021 before invading Ukraine [0] - stating that FINLAND, SWEDEN, ALL SOVEREIGN STATES IN EUROPE LOST THEIR CAPACITY TO DECIDE ABOUT THEIR DEFENSIVE ALLIANCES AND THEIR DEFENSE POLICY.
Russia literally wanted to control and decide foreign and decency policy of o sovereign countries, so yeah, you need to review your facts with the documented evidence.
(Also, in case you didn't know, this violates many important documents the USSR and Russia signed in the past.)
As for Russia interests, you also seem to forget that Russia tried to take Kyiv and topple the government. Just because Ukraine managed to defend itself doesn't mean that suddenly Russia is only interested in the only land they managed to steal so far.
You also seem to forget occupied territory in Georgia, and they reinforced that they will protect the current pro russia party in Georgia[1] - perhaps a new Belarus is brewing?
Corrected: No one real believes it's NATO's expansion anymore ( weird, i'm pretty sure i typed NATO on my mobile... Since i mentioned Russian imperialism => Russia expansion )
> In fact it was not only a major grievance, it was part of Russia's ultimatum in December 2021 before invading Ukraine
Russia invaded in 2014, not in 2021... After Ukraine landed a landmark deal about gas with Shell
This predates your claims.
I'm not ignoring that Russia tried to topple Kyiv ( it tried to topple more countries than just that). But their primarely target is the east of Ukraine ( resource rich ) and Crimea ( for gas and their naval fleet).
> No one real believes it's NATO's expansion anymore
Ah, in that case, yes we agree - I even doubt anyone without a political agenda ever thought about that. I would even dare to say most people didn't even know the purpose of NATO, or even cared about it.
Now they know.
> Russia invaded in 2014, not in 2021... After Ukraine landed a landmark deal about gas with Shell
Yes but in 2014 the narrative was to "protect ethnic Russians", and not annex territory, that's what I meant by invasion and what set apart the 2022 invasion as its own event - but you're correct, its a continuation of the 2014 invasion.
I think this might be more than about resources. Russia has plenty of land and resources.
My take is more about the public perception of Ukraine, which Russia used to call "brothers" but always looked at them was an inferior ethnic group, and they made sure to make them pay heavy prices as a reminder for being an inferior people to Russians. That's why I think the question is:
What would Russians think of Putin if Ukraine joined and thrived in the EU, with better standards of living than Russia, as a democracy?
Of course, resources play a role in this, because Ukraine can never be a successful democracy for the Russian regime, it would be their end.
There has been no NATO expansion, in the sense of an expansion initiated or supported in any way by NATO.
Many countries have joined NATO from their own initiative, because they knew wery well that Russia is willing to rob and murder any neighbors and those neighbors are too small to oppose Russia without allies.
Regardless whether those countries loved NATO or not, they all have made great efforts to join NATO, including by making various sacrifices, as renouncing to things that had belonged to them or accepting to finance various onerous contracts with companies located in NATO countries. The countries that have joined NATO have been willing to do this at considerable expenses, because any such expenses were less important than the risk of being vulnerable to Russian attacks.
Russia has a history of attacking their neighbors only days after those neighbors have lost their allies, so they could not count any more on anybody else for defending against Russian attacks.
After Finland joined NATO, Russia moved their military equipment away from the Finnish border. Why? Because Russia knows NATO is a defensive alliance and is never going to attack them first.
The book club is expanding: the horror! People should not sign up for book club, and it should be forbidden I tell you! I forbade my direct neighbors to do so! The football club is so much better! In fact, I'm gonna make you a member of football club, whether you like it or not! And your children too! I'll assault anyone who objects!
When one “gang” you have to apply for and actually qualify to get into, meanwhile the other one is basically threatening to make you join at a gunpoint and is cutting off your limbs while you are hesitating, which one do you think seems like the less abusive option (assuming you can get away from the gunpoint situation)?
Also many Ukrainians died with the European flag during the Maidan or while beeing occupied in Bucha. Russian leaders (or Putin) dont understand this. They are caught in cold war mentality.
> Have you seen many dozens of reports of Ukrainian nationalists destroying memorials to the soldiers who fought Nazis? And, as if it's not bad enough already, building memorials to Nazi collaborators whom they consider to be their heroes?
(to the tg channel of Ukrainian politician, who is in exile in Spain and has survived an assassination attempt).
About that "politician", Andrij Shariy whom you are citing as some kind of a credible figure, if not a martyr of sorts -- from WP:
In a 2010 article, "Blue Rust. Dictatorship of Sodomites"[4] Shariy expressed an opinion that due to death sentences for same-sex and adultery relationships in Iran after the Islamic revolution the situation with prostitution, pedophilia, and rape in Iran was much better than in Ukraine.”[79]: 46–47, 57 [81] In the summer of 2020, journalist Sergei Ivanov posted screenshots of Anatoly Shariy's publications from 2010 in which he showed understanding for the extermination of homosexuals and Roma in gas chambers during the Third Reich.[82][83]
No credible information has emerged about the alleged attempts on his life. However he is under investigation by the SBU for inciting nationalist hatred.
You bothered to go to wikipedia to discredit the messenger when you couldn't disprove the fact that monuments to fallen Soviet soldiers are destroyed in Ukraine, but chose to stop citing wiki too soon. Doesn't seem honest to me. Here is the next paragraph you ignored:
In 2021 Shariy apologized "for his past from 11 years ago" and claimed his views had been changed since then.[84]
"And about gays. I am a simple guy from Karavaevka. My childhood passed in the Soviet Union. I have never seen those "gays" ...I was certain that they would attack me with obscene offers... but I must say that I have never had a problem with a gay person in my life."
The guy's an idiot, and a loose cannon. It doesn't matter how much he "evolved" or changed his tune once he started facing the natural consequences for whatever he shitposted earlier.
What matters here is that you seem to happy to hold him up a credible, interesting useful and inspiring source of information.
You couldn't disprove the fact that ...
I don't dispute any of it. There's no need to because it's simply not relevant to the current situation.
Perhaps you should consider doing the same, at moments when all you can think of offering in response to an evident Russian war crime (demolishing memorials on territory is illegally occupying) is to cite the completely non-analogous situation of the Ukrainians demolishing memorials (for whatever reason) on their own territory.
It's just such an obviously insipid and vacuous comparison. It's difficult to see why you went down this track, other than as an excuse to thrown down more of your favorite scare imagery and talking points.
And yet you instead of honestly saying 'yes, post-2014 Ukraine glorifies Nazi collaborators, but it doesn't matter to me' go to the great lengths to deny it or weasel around.
Certain people in Ukraine valorize and whitewash that history.
But "Ukraine" as a country does not. And none of this stupidity is any way relevant to the current (very much Nazi-like) invasion by Russia that you are continually apologizing for. Whose true causes you know perfectly well, and are continually attempting to distract attention away from with finger-pointing tactics such as these.
These certain people include Ukrainian Foreign Ministry, as you could see in the comment you couldn't pass by but clearly hadn't bothered to read.
Also the mayors of Ukrainian cities who approve naming streets after "heroes" of OUN. This includes Stepan Bandera Avenue in the center of the Ukrainian capital [0].
And even more fudging -- ignoring the point about Ukrainian Foreign Ministry aggressively defending glorification of Nazi collaborators and making an attempt to joke instead of addressing the fact that many Ukrainian mayors, both local and in the capital, support (or cannot resist when facing more powerful force) renaming streets after Nazi collaborators.
It's comical to see how your russophobia doesn't allow you to acknowledge objective reality.
47 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 107 ms ] threadRussia recently mentioned it themselves they they had no problems with Finland and Sweden joining it.
Regarding Russian imperialism. It's quite the coincidence Russia is more interested in the resource rich area of Ukraine and they started "the little green men" invasion a year after Ukraine setup gas exploration on Crimea ( with shell)
Oh wait. It's no coincidence
I'm not sure who you're considering as "no one", but looks like you're trying to speak for a lot of people.
Just because Russia failed to deter Finland and Sweden to join, doesn't mean that they didn't, or don't have major problems with it.
In fact it was not only a major grievance, it was part of Russia's ultimatum in December 2021 before invading Ukraine [0] - stating that FINLAND, SWEDEN, ALL SOVEREIGN STATES IN EUROPE LOST THEIR CAPACITY TO DECIDE ABOUT THEIR DEFENSIVE ALLIANCES AND THEIR DEFENSE POLICY.
Russia literally wanted to control and decide foreign and decency policy of o sovereign countries, so yeah, you need to review your facts with the documented evidence.
(Also, in case you didn't know, this violates many important documents the USSR and Russia signed in the past.)
As for Russia interests, you also seem to forget that Russia tried to take Kyiv and topple the government. Just because Ukraine managed to defend itself doesn't mean that suddenly Russia is only interested in the only land they managed to steal so far.
You also seem to forget occupied territory in Georgia, and they reinforced that they will protect the current pro russia party in Georgia[1] - perhaps a new Belarus is brewing?
It looks like you have a very selective memory.
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin%27s_December_20.... [1]https://kyivindependent.com/russia-announces-willingness-to-...
> In fact it was not only a major grievance, it was part of Russia's ultimatum in December 2021 before invading Ukraine
Russia invaded in 2014, not in 2021... After Ukraine landed a landmark deal about gas with Shell
This predates your claims.
I'm not ignoring that Russia tried to topple Kyiv ( it tried to topple more countries than just that). But their primarely target is the east of Ukraine ( resource rich ) and Crimea ( for gas and their naval fleet).
- https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/10/ukraine-russ...
- https://www.reuters.com/article/business/ukraine-signs-landm...
TLDR: I think we mean the same, but the typo caused confusion :)
Ah, in that case, yes we agree - I even doubt anyone without a political agenda ever thought about that. I would even dare to say most people didn't even know the purpose of NATO, or even cared about it.
Now they know.
> Russia invaded in 2014, not in 2021... After Ukraine landed a landmark deal about gas with Shell
Yes but in 2014 the narrative was to "protect ethnic Russians", and not annex territory, that's what I meant by invasion and what set apart the 2022 invasion as its own event - but you're correct, its a continuation of the 2014 invasion.
I think this might be more than about resources. Russia has plenty of land and resources.
My take is more about the public perception of Ukraine, which Russia used to call "brothers" but always looked at them was an inferior ethnic group, and they made sure to make them pay heavy prices as a reminder for being an inferior people to Russians. That's why I think the question is:
What would Russians think of Putin if Ukraine joined and thrived in the EU, with better standards of living than Russia, as a democracy?
Of course, resources play a role in this, because Ukraine can never be a successful democracy for the Russian regime, it would be their end.
Many countries have joined NATO from their own initiative, because they knew wery well that Russia is willing to rob and murder any neighbors and those neighbors are too small to oppose Russia without allies.
Regardless whether those countries loved NATO or not, they all have made great efforts to join NATO, including by making various sacrifices, as renouncing to things that had belonged to them or accepting to finance various onerous contracts with companies located in NATO countries. The countries that have joined NATO have been willing to do this at considerable expenses, because any such expenses were less important than the risk of being vulnerable to Russian attacks.
Russia has a history of attacking their neighbors only days after those neighbors have lost their allies, so they could not count any more on anybody else for defending against Russian attacks.
Follow the white rabbit.
If everyone on my street joined an anti-mr street gang, I would be concerned.
Don't listen to stupid Russian propaganda...
The idea that any of these stupid monuments have anything to do with the actual reasons the 2014/2022 invasions were launched.
Or that Putin actually cares about Nazis. Or that you actually care.
Or that any of this stuff has any relevance as a topic, next to the reality of the current war itself.
It's all just dumb propaganda.
Oh, I do care a lot. My grandmother survived the blockade of Leningrad, and another relative survived in a Nazi concentration camp.
About that "politician", Andrij Shariy whom you are citing as some kind of a credible figure, if not a martyr of sorts -- from WP:
No credible information has emerged about the alleged attempts on his life. However he is under investigation by the SBU for inciting nationalist hatred.What matters here is that you seem to happy to hold him up a credible, interesting useful and inspiring source of information.
You couldn't disprove the fact that ...
I don't dispute any of it. There's no need to because it's simply not relevant to the current situation.
Just like your comments to this thread.
It was yet another "Bandera, Bandera" thread.
So nothing emerging from it would have relevance to anything.
As you knew when you started it.
It's just such an obviously insipid and vacuous comparison. It's difficult to see why you went down this track, other than as an excuse to thrown down more of your favorite scare imagery and talking points.
I love how you are skirting the topic of the ideology of post-2014 Ukraine.
But "Ukraine" as a country does not. And none of this stupidity is any way relevant to the current (very much Nazi-like) invasion by Russia that you are continually apologizing for. Whose true causes you know perfectly well, and are continually attempting to distract attention away from with finger-pointing tactics such as these.
That is the cardinal error you are making here.
See, you are at it again.
These certain people include Ukrainian Foreign Ministry, as you could see in the comment you couldn't pass by but clearly hadn't bothered to read.
Also the mayors of Ukrainian cities who approve naming streets after "heroes" of OUN. This includes Stepan Bandera Avenue in the center of the Ukrainian capital [0].
[0] https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Вулиця_Степана_Бандери
Then try writing letters to them, perhaps? I'm sure they'll be happy to hear from you.
It's comical to see how your russophobia doesn't allow you to acknowledge objective reality.
On the other hand, I'm worried about a deescalation path as they become desperate after conventional weapons and equipment are depleted.
(And because HNers love straw men attacks, I think any compromise by Ukraine on their sovereign territory is unacceptable)