This reminds me of a story that I heard from a tree surgeon. A customer complained about the cost of removing a tree as it was "unskilled" labour, and he asked them if they knew how to remove a 30-metre high tree without it falling on his house or car, or if he even owned the right tools, or if he was able and willing to climb up to the top of that tree and remove branches.
The list of so-called skilled labor jobs like lawyer, etc., that I would be willing to fake if I had to is pretty long the list of un skilled labor jobs basically starts with ditchdigger and ends there, and I’m even even scared of that one because of how you can die in a ditch if it collapses.
Some of the boomers I know like to explain that they are paying for a brain. someone who has taken the time in school and is "smart"
This of course doesn't really work out as you have explained. I always like to point out that I'm one of those "smart" people and I'm a middle school drop out slacker who is just clever with computers.
Nowadays I'd wager most ditchdigging is done with small excavators and I wouldn't want to operate one without some form of training. But I can use a broom if needed...
Not in developing countries: most small excavations in Chile are done by hand, even during road construction. Very few bobcats around here, so anything where a backhoe would be too big is done with shovels.
I was raised a farm boy where a lot of time was spent maintaining buildings, yards, machinery, etc., so I was exposed to most of the trades and could fake them if I had to.
Which is why I know that the trades are skilled labour. Because I don't have any of that skill.
Unfortunately you're quite right. Maybe because those workers are also "trained" to see what they do as unskilled work, like everyone else says? So unskilled work is what they deliver. Now if only the society would give proper attention and value to those jobs... Edit: I'm also a diplomed electrician, but I have never practiced and would not even dream to practice nowadays without proper updated training. I guess not everybody is that self conscious, because hey it's unskilled right, so here we are.
I hear them in pubs bragging about how great they are and now people need them etc. They're anything but downbeat
They deliver shit work because they know they can charge high rates regardless, because of lack of DIY skills and lack of tradespeople. There's not enough competition - bring back the Polish I say.
Indeed. I was forced out of my home town to much further way due to the actions of successive governments to over-inflate house prices. Thank you for reminding me. Stay classy
Depends on how much you're willing to pay and how long you're willing to wait for them to be available.
The best carpenters will be making custom furniture and wood panels for mansions, and have multi-year waiting lists.
There are tradespeople who are excellent and available to mere mortals, though. But there's often a waiting list, and you may pay more. (I've had the best luck with auto-mechanics.)
in it, the author of the article uses the example of building a stair to motivate the discussion of how in practice, when rubber meets the road, things get complicated in very interesting ways
"Of all the jobs I’ve had – creative agencies in London, content creator for a produce supplier in San Francisco, a digital marketer in Melbourne – nobody has ever breathed a word of interest in where I went to university."
While blundering his way towards a crushing defeat in the UK’s general election this month, Rishi Sunak made many mistakes as prime minister. Perhaps the most disastrous was the Conservative leader’s bizarre promise to reintroduce national service for 18-year-olds.
While Sunak sparked a debate that even reached Australia about the benefits of military service, his plan was generally viewed with the cynicism it deserved. That is, as a shallow attempt to tap into the resentment of his party’s core demographic, Boomers, by forcing Britain’s supposedly entitled youth to pull up their bootstraps and drop their smashed avo toast.
But if Boomers are really so hell-bent on punishing Gen Z, Sunak had it all wrong. Instead of serving in the army, the best method would be to force every young person to work a stint in hospitality.
For a start, working in a restaurant closely resembles a boot camp. You wake up early and wear a uniform, you’re on your feet all day, do the same exercises over and over again, sleep a few hours and rinse-repeat the next day.
Much in the way a marine can learn to assemble an M1 Carbine rifle with their eyes closed, a 21-year-old undergrad can sleepwalk their way through Sunday breakfast service without spilling a cappuccino.
I say this as someone who has served their time, in and out of bar jobs and cafe gigs for nearly eight years. It taught me a lot about people, and the lack of respect some believe you deserve when wearing an apron.
The worst part is that people don’t even realise they’re doing it. The lack of thank-yous, the mumbling into the tablecloth when ordering, their sharp impatience when you try to ensure everything was written down correctly.
I suspect restaurant and cafe customers have little idea of the profound, quiet stigma directed towards service workers. There is an assumption in this country that wait staff above a certain age are where they are because they lack the skills or gumption to “get a proper job”.
It’s an unwinnable contradiction: wait staff occupy the unskilled peripherals of the workforce, yet there is hell to pay if we fail to magic up 12 espresso martinis the moment they’re asked for.
The bloke behind the bar and the girl clearing your plates aren’t as dense as you think they are.
They’re usually juggling four tasks when you call out for more mayonnaise. They’re halfway through taking drink orders for a new table of six and refilling the water carafes for the private function in the back room when you decide, sorry yes, you would like some more side plates.
They’re memorising the seat numbers of every table, making sure the right drink ends up in the correct hand and that the gluten-free toddler gets the correct serving of sliced bread.
And yet no matter what skills hospitality workers demonstrate, customers’ prejudice remains.
Of all the jobs I’ve had – creative agencies in London, content creator for a produce supplier in San Francisco, a digital marketer in Melbourne – nobody has ever breathed a word of interest in where I went to university.
Except when I worked in hospitality.
Customers in restaurants have a fanatical interest in the level of education achieved by the people serving them. In the odd instances where I would have time to talk to a diner about something other than the day’s specials, I would always be asked what I did at school. What did I study? Did I complete a master’s degree? Good grades?
The prevailing assumption about service workers is that we’re wiping tables because we are poorly educated. I could never tell if diners were surprised or disappointed when I disclosed I had a first-class honours degree.
It felt like a reading of my character: beneath their polite smiles, the lingering question: “If he’s so smart, why is he working here?”
Long-term service workers are often those who can’t afford to study at uni full-time or undertake the unpaid internship with the investment bank. Yet, the people with those privileges are, from my experience, usually the ...
It would probably have sufficed to excerpt the clickbait. The one question, as near as is articulated, seems to be three:
> Customers in restaurants have a fanatical interest in the level of education achieved by the people serving them. In the odd instances where I would have time to talk to a diner about something other than the day’s specials, I would always be asked what I did at school. What did I study? Did I complete a master’s degree? Good grades?
I bounce around between coffee shops as a way to mix up the WFH routine. (Southeast US city). Rule #1 is to be nice to the staff. Be polite, tip well, complement the latte art etc. I'm not very socially adept, but this is easy mode.
As someone who worked in service about a decade you would be surprised how many fail this step.
I can guarantee you will get much better service if you are nice to the staff. I would go above and beyond to fulfill any request if you are nice about it; if you are rude sorry nothing I can do for you and yes you can speak to my manager, have a good day
Another good tip is to just be empathic. They are doing each small action all day, every day, repeatedly, probably a hundred times per shift. There is no reason for you to make more work for them than is necessary, even of you pay their bosses well.
Is it not friendly and normal to ask young wait staff what they are studying on the assumption that they are students earning their way though college? (And most young wait staff are? Except for California, where they are aspiring actors?)
I couldn't think of something more unfriendly. You're assuming that every town is a college town.
You're implying that you're willing to be a customer at a place that is so undesirable to work at, that the only reason the staff work this job is that they are lacking alternatives and want to get away from this job as soon as possible.
Finally, if they aren't studying anything then you are basically telling them that they are stuck in a dead end job. How friendly!
Asking a young folk if/what are they studying is not unfriendly at all. I am the kind of person that engages in conversations with people around me and I have a never had a negative experience from that, quite the opposite, plenty of times I ended up having a joyful conversation where we both learn things about each other's.
Nah, just be empathic and don't push your assumptions onto other people. Talking to people is fine, if they want to talk. Asking people stuff is fine, if your questions are sensitive and don't bore them.
E.g. asking someone who looks different "which country they are from" that is neither sensitive (you are pushing the assumption they have to be from a different country because they look different) and probably boring (they have heard that a hundred times).
Talking to people is fine, just consider what assumption you're pushing onto others and why that might suck for them and you're good.
Imagine you are a young woman that dropped out of high school, the best job you ever found is waiting at whatever coffe joint there was in your town. You have seen some similar aged collegues come and go, for most of them the job was a short term job to support their studies.
Once a week some customer asks you what you study. How would you feel about that when it happens for the 50th time?
I'd feel real and own it... One shouldn't be upset by reality or some stranger assuming something. That's part of the reality and others shouldn't be walking on egg shells.
> Asking a young folk if/what are they studying is not unfriendly at all. I am the kind of person that engages in conversations with people around me and I have a never had a negative experience from that,
But perhaps they had a negative experience from your words?
If you're a paying customer, their ability to make housing and car payments may hinge on being polite to customers like you, no matter how rude.
With power dynamics like that, you can't necessarily know if you've offended them.
> Is it not friendly and normal to ask young wait staff what they are studying on the assumption that they are students earning their way though college?
I think any "… on the assumption that …" is going to cause trouble on a sufficiently large sample size, so why make the assumption?
> And most young wait staff are? Except for California, where they are aspiring actors?
How do you know? But note also that the author is specifically referring to older waitstaff ("There is an assumption in this country that wait staff above a certain age are where they are because they lack the skills or gumption to “get a proper job”")—and also that this is about the UK, whereas it sounds like you might be thinking about the US.
Exactly. The best reason not to ask is that it's personal and none of the customer's business!
And it's usually not innocent small talk. For a lot of status-conscious people, the purpose of asking the question (and other similar ones) is to suss out exactly where that other person is on the social status totem pole, so you know how far "beneath you" you can treat them.
Or telling someone whats good or bad to study since you have years of experience (FWIW). Or find out what people study these days. What is new in universities, to learn something themselves.
You genuinely believe someone wants to hear your opinion on what they study? You're a complete stranger, I don't care how much years of experience you have.
IIUC think the article is saying that the assumption is the issue. That the default is to assume that working in the service industry is only a stepping stone and therefore less valuable.
> It taught me a lot about people, and the lack of respect some believe you deserve when wearing an apron.
Tell you what: stop looking at the customers as walking wallets, and you'll have your respect. Greater tips too. Guaranteed. 99 % of the time, it's the staff's fault.
And repeat this every morning: When the customer receives astonishing service and a mediocre product, it’s likely they give you a tip, maybe try again. If it’s the other way around, unlikely, and the enterprise is just a fluke. Do I expect undergrads working for tips to know this? Yes, god dammit!
Totally agree. I live in a country where tipping is not normal but will gladly give tips to staff when they make me feel like they want me there.
I have been to a number of places in the post-covid era where they expect me to shell out large sums of money for little value. Just recently being in the US had me feeling this way more than elsewhere, but I can point to other examples in Europe.
> stop looking at the customers as walking wallets
Maybe that would help if the salary was enough to be self-sustaining and tips weren't necessary to make ends meet.
Also, it's a vicious circle. It's harder to be nice to staff when they're not pleasant, it's harder for staff to be pleasant when their customers are brats with copious self-entitlement and condescension towards service workers.
Empathy goes a long way here.
> 99 % of the time, it's the staff's fault
If that's your experience, I'd try looking inwards to find reasons why as well.
It’s ok, I’m not an exception. I’m talking about baselines here. I actually care about both groups. Are you pissed? Don’t show it to the customer, come yelling at me, I’m paid for that.
If you want to pay for your own education then feel free to pursue any field of study you like. Why do you want me to pay for it if you're then going to wait tables? Let me guess you are working on the next big break in theoretical physics like Einstein at his patent clerk job.
> If you want to pay for your own education then feel free to pursue any field of study you like. Why do you want me to pay for it if you're then going to wait tables? Let me guess you are working on the next big break in theoretical physics like Einstein at his patent clerk job.
You've started off by saying that you're going to be disrespectful, but let me say all the same, this is profoundly rude and disrespectful. Do you think service workers should not be paid? Unless you think that, what do you think is wrong with working service to pay for an education?
(Besides which, notice that this is written by someone who has completed their education, so, even if you are really horrified at the idea of paying for someone's studies, that's not what's happening here.)
Where the fuck do you think I say a worker should not get paid? These stink pieces are usually from people who want free this and free that, in this particular case free education. Higher education is subsidized in the UK so naturally I assume this author wants more money to be stolen through taxes to pay for his unused degree and possibly worthless degree. Being a low paid waiter probably means he's under the threshold at which he has to pay back his subsidy.
There's a paywall so if you're wondering, here's the 'one question customers ask that shows a lack of respect':
(Although really the article is more about general experiences and the 'one question' part was probably pulled out as a headline by a sub-editor)
Customers in restaurants have a fanatical interest in the level of education achieved by the people serving them. In the odd instances where I would have time to talk to a diner about something other than the day’s specials, I would always be asked what I did at school. What did I study? Did I complete a master’s degree? Good grades?
> Those who like to complain about the delays in getting their decaf skinny lattes during the Saturday morning rush might appreciate their arrival a lot more if they had some experience in making them for other people.
I think no, because in plenty of cases it's their value system that's the problem - they believe in a world where some serve and the others are served and that these groups should not mix.
Their work experience changes little, as being the former they assume they're just the temporarily embarrassed latter and that is what drives them to do more.
In our industry I've seen this attitude displayed towards front-end developers. Somehow for some, if you're doing this as a senior dev, there must be a problematic reason behind it.
Anybody looking down on a fellow hardworking man is either uneducated/inexperienced with life (possible to fix) or lacks basic emotional intelligence (smart folks learn to mimic this the hard way over time, but it can't really be permanently 'gained' as in new situations they still behave like elephant in porcelain shop).
I've seen it a lot when backpacking around the world, certain cultures have it at/close to their core, others are the opposite.
What does "[flagged] [bot thread]" mean? The submitter keepamovin seems to be a legitimate user with plenty of valid submissions (https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=keepamovin) (and more reputation than I have!).
The [flagged] bit comes from users having flagged the post. The "[bot thread]" bit came from the submitted title, which was "[bot thread] A cafe worker: the question customers ask showing disrespect". I've taken that out now.
Thanks! I understood the meaning of [flagged] (sorry, that was definitely unclear from my question). What surprised me was that [bot thread] wasn't in the original submission, so I thought that it had been added automatically.
Its weird that they think we are complaining from ignorance. I was the employee of the ywar 25 years ago at my local mcdonalds, and i worked numerous other service jobs theough university. I am complaining precisely because i know how badly they are cocking it up
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[ 6.4 ms ] story [ 224 ms ] threadedit: hahaha! :) half of all comments on this threads are robots. a bot fest! haha :)
This of course doesn't really work out as you have explained. I always like to point out that I'm one of those "smart" people and I'm a middle school drop out slacker who is just clever with computers.
Which is why I know that the trades are skilled labour. Because I don't have any of that skill.
I hear them in pubs bragging about how great they are and now people need them etc. They're anything but downbeat
They deliver shit work because they know they can charge high rates regardless, because of lack of DIY skills and lack of tradespeople. There's not enough competition - bring back the Polish I say.
The best carpenters will be making custom furniture and wood panels for mansions, and have multi-year waiting lists.
There are tradespeople who are excellent and available to mere mortals, though. But there's often a waiting list, and you may pay more. (I've had the best luck with auto-mechanics.)
in it, the author of the article uses the example of building a stair to motivate the discussion of how in practice, when rubber meets the road, things get complicated in very interesting ways
While Sunak sparked a debate that even reached Australia about the benefits of military service, his plan was generally viewed with the cynicism it deserved. That is, as a shallow attempt to tap into the resentment of his party’s core demographic, Boomers, by forcing Britain’s supposedly entitled youth to pull up their bootstraps and drop their smashed avo toast.
But if Boomers are really so hell-bent on punishing Gen Z, Sunak had it all wrong. Instead of serving in the army, the best method would be to force every young person to work a stint in hospitality.
For a start, working in a restaurant closely resembles a boot camp. You wake up early and wear a uniform, you’re on your feet all day, do the same exercises over and over again, sleep a few hours and rinse-repeat the next day.
Much in the way a marine can learn to assemble an M1 Carbine rifle with their eyes closed, a 21-year-old undergrad can sleepwalk their way through Sunday breakfast service without spilling a cappuccino.
I say this as someone who has served their time, in and out of bar jobs and cafe gigs for nearly eight years. It taught me a lot about people, and the lack of respect some believe you deserve when wearing an apron.
The worst part is that people don’t even realise they’re doing it. The lack of thank-yous, the mumbling into the tablecloth when ordering, their sharp impatience when you try to ensure everything was written down correctly.
I suspect restaurant and cafe customers have little idea of the profound, quiet stigma directed towards service workers. There is an assumption in this country that wait staff above a certain age are where they are because they lack the skills or gumption to “get a proper job”.
It’s an unwinnable contradiction: wait staff occupy the unskilled peripherals of the workforce, yet there is hell to pay if we fail to magic up 12 espresso martinis the moment they’re asked for.
The bloke behind the bar and the girl clearing your plates aren’t as dense as you think they are.
They’re usually juggling four tasks when you call out for more mayonnaise. They’re halfway through taking drink orders for a new table of six and refilling the water carafes for the private function in the back room when you decide, sorry yes, you would like some more side plates.
They’re memorising the seat numbers of every table, making sure the right drink ends up in the correct hand and that the gluten-free toddler gets the correct serving of sliced bread.
And yet no matter what skills hospitality workers demonstrate, customers’ prejudice remains.
Of all the jobs I’ve had – creative agencies in London, content creator for a produce supplier in San Francisco, a digital marketer in Melbourne – nobody has ever breathed a word of interest in where I went to university.
Except when I worked in hospitality.
Customers in restaurants have a fanatical interest in the level of education achieved by the people serving them. In the odd instances where I would have time to talk to a diner about something other than the day’s specials, I would always be asked what I did at school. What did I study? Did I complete a master’s degree? Good grades?
The prevailing assumption about service workers is that we’re wiping tables because we are poorly educated. I could never tell if diners were surprised or disappointed when I disclosed I had a first-class honours degree.
It felt like a reading of my character: beneath their polite smiles, the lingering question: “If he’s so smart, why is he working here?”
Long-term service workers are often those who can’t afford to study at uni full-time or undertake the unpaid internship with the investment bank. Yet, the people with those privileges are, from my experience, usually the ...
> Customers in restaurants have a fanatical interest in the level of education achieved by the people serving them. In the odd instances where I would have time to talk to a diner about something other than the day’s specials, I would always be asked what I did at school. What did I study? Did I complete a master’s degree? Good grades?
I don't even get what he's rambling about, I don't see any deep insight in this article.
I can guarantee you will get much better service if you are nice to the staff. I would go above and beyond to fulfill any request if you are nice about it; if you are rude sorry nothing I can do for you and yes you can speak to my manager, have a good day
You're implying that you're willing to be a customer at a place that is so undesirable to work at, that the only reason the staff work this job is that they are lacking alternatives and want to get away from this job as soon as possible.
Finally, if they aren't studying anything then you are basically telling them that they are stuck in a dead end job. How friendly!
A punch to the face. There you go.
Asking a young folk if/what are they studying is not unfriendly at all. I am the kind of person that engages in conversations with people around me and I have a never had a negative experience from that, quite the opposite, plenty of times I ended up having a joyful conversation where we both learn things about each other's.
The fact that many people wouldn't even consider that possibility is telling.
E.g. asking someone who looks different "which country they are from" that is neither sensitive (you are pushing the assumption they have to be from a different country because they look different) and probably boring (they have heard that a hundred times).
Talking to people is fine, just consider what assumption you're pushing onto others and why that might suck for them and you're good.
Not at all. There's literally nothing wrong with asking people if they're studying something or not.
Once a week some customer asks you what you study. How would you feel about that when it happens for the 50th time?
This is not empathy-rocket science.
But perhaps they had a negative experience from your words?
If you're a paying customer, their ability to make housing and car payments may hinge on being polite to customers like you, no matter how rude.
With power dynamics like that, you can't necessarily know if you've offended them.
I think any "… on the assumption that …" is going to cause trouble on a sufficiently large sample size, so why make the assumption?
> And most young wait staff are? Except for California, where they are aspiring actors?
How do you know? But note also that the author is specifically referring to older waitstaff ("There is an assumption in this country that wait staff above a certain age are where they are because they lack the skills or gumption to “get a proper job”")—and also that this is about the UK, whereas it sounds like you might be thinking about the US.
Is it because you can’t imagine someone wanting to be a barista?
If you're right about them being a student, it's pleasant small talk.
If you're wrong about them being a student, you may be highlighting the fact that they're in a dead end, low income career path.
The second case is sufficiently painful and likely, that it's probably a bad idea to lead with this question.
And it's usually not innocent small talk. For a lot of status-conscious people, the purpose of asking the question (and other similar ones) is to suss out exactly where that other person is on the social status totem pole, so you know how far "beneath you" you can treat them.
Ultimately it's up to you what you do with that information.
The question carries an assumption within itself, namely that your work (quality, kind of work) can't possibly sustain you.
Aimilarily if you ask staff that your assumption is that this can't possibly be a work that anybody would ever like to do voluntarily.
Tell you what: stop looking at the customers as walking wallets, and you'll have your respect. Greater tips too. Guaranteed. 99 % of the time, it's the staff's fault.
And repeat this every morning: When the customer receives astonishing service and a mediocre product, it’s likely they give you a tip, maybe try again. If it’s the other way around, unlikely, and the enterprise is just a fluke. Do I expect undergrads working for tips to know this? Yes, god dammit!
I have been to a number of places in the post-covid era where they expect me to shell out large sums of money for little value. Just recently being in the US had me feeling this way more than elsewhere, but I can point to other examples in Europe.
Maybe that would help if the salary was enough to be self-sustaining and tips weren't necessary to make ends meet.
Also, it's a vicious circle. It's harder to be nice to staff when they're not pleasant, it's harder for staff to be pleasant when their customers are brats with copious self-entitlement and condescension towards service workers.
Empathy goes a long way here.
> 99 % of the time, it's the staff's fault
If that's your experience, I'd try looking inwards to find reasons why as well.
That's a discussion you're supposed to have with your manager, customers don't care.
> it's a vicious circle
Yes. And you, as a member of the staff, your employer's rep, are supposed to quit it, asap.
Don't get me wrong, but you don't come across very caring from the way you write.
I'd say at least 70% of the waiters I encountered were pretty nice actually.
> I had a first-class honours degree
If you want to pay for your own education then feel free to pursue any field of study you like. Why do you want me to pay for it if you're then going to wait tables? Let me guess you are working on the next big break in theoretical physics like Einstein at his patent clerk job.
> > I had a first-class honours degree
> If you want to pay for your own education then feel free to pursue any field of study you like. Why do you want me to pay for it if you're then going to wait tables? Let me guess you are working on the next big break in theoretical physics like Einstein at his patent clerk job.
You've started off by saying that you're going to be disrespectful, but let me say all the same, this is profoundly rude and disrespectful. Do you think service workers should not be paid? Unless you think that, what do you think is wrong with working service to pay for an education?
(Besides which, notice that this is written by someone who has completed their education, so, even if you are really horrified at the idea of paying for someone's studies, that's not what's happening here.)
Customers in restaurants have a fanatical interest in the level of education achieved by the people serving them. In the odd instances where I would have time to talk to a diner about something other than the day’s specials, I would always be asked what I did at school. What did I study? Did I complete a master’s degree? Good grades?
I think no, because in plenty of cases it's their value system that's the problem - they believe in a world where some serve and the others are served and that these groups should not mix.
Their work experience changes little, as being the former they assume they're just the temporarily embarrassed latter and that is what drives them to do more.
In our industry I've seen this attitude displayed towards front-end developers. Somehow for some, if you're doing this as a senior dev, there must be a problematic reason behind it.
I've seen it a lot when backpacking around the world, certain cultures have it at/close to their core, others are the opposite.
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