All non-carriers are also at risk of developing cancer. How much worse does H. pylori make that situation?
Combining some reports from various places:
> Infection of the stomach with H. pylori is not the cause of illness itself; over half of the global population is infected but most are asymptomatic.
> Infection with H. pylori is responsible for around 89 per cent of all gastric cancers
That puts gastric cancer deaths from H. pylori at just under 1.2% of all deaths, which frankly seems ridiculously high.
https://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/stomach.html suggests that stomach cancer is 1.8% of all cancer deaths (in the USA), which is perfectly compatible with the above statistics as long as cancer is the cause of 67% of all deaths.
The death rate from stomach cancer is about 3 per 100,000 people (in the USA). The overall death rate, per https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/79486, is 864 per 100,000, putting stomach cancer at 0.3% of all deaths. In the USA.
Is this actually something we worry about? Most people are infected; virtually no one gets cancer.
No symptoms? Excess passing of gas and acid reflux and GERD. They might be a series of ignored symptoms. Not a lack of symptoms.
PSA: get yourself checked. The treatment will literally destroy all your gut bacteria and renew your stomach to a healthier state. It will be a miserable two weeks though.
> Infection with H. pylori is responsible for around 89% of all gastric cancers, and is linked to the development of 5.5% of all cases of cancer worldwide. Although the data varies between different countries, overall about 1% to 3% of people infected with Helicobacter pylori develop gastric cancer in their lifetime compared to 0.13% of individuals who have had no H. pylori infection. H. pylori-induced gastric cancer is the third highest cause of worldwide cancer mortality as of 2018. Because of the usual lack of symptoms, when gastric cancer is finally diagnosed it is often fairly advanced. More than half of gastric cancer patients have lymph node metastasis when they are initially diagnosed.
I've got symptoms, but this would scare me even if I didn't.
Nothing to remediation or repair in this. So, observational in mice, gut is gut and probably a good analogue for any non-ruminating mammal. But, how to mitigate, how to repair, what to do afterward is missing.
We need antibiotics. I don't want to go back into the world my parents lived in before they existed, I'd prefer to be in the world I was born into when they still had significant effect without wildcat over-use.
I don't think this result reflects all antibiotic treatments:
"RESULTS Oral antibiotic treatment disrupts the colonic mucus barrier"
Intraveinous administration may or may not cause the same effect, or a similar effect. Maybe oral antibiotics is generally a bad idea because it disrupts the microbiome, but in other forms it's generally fine.
They are living, they reproduce. Damaged ones die off.
That's why you're told to take yogurt/other fermented foods after taking antibiotics, to provide a reproductive environment for them to grow.
However it's still a risk you could kill off a whole species and lose their function, so probably best not to take antibiotics unless you really have to.
It's an easy analysis process though, you try to recover for a couple days, if you cannot and no virus is detected, you take antibiotics.
If it's a bacterial infection and it's spreading you have to take antibiotics, otherwise you die and all of your microbes die with you.
The other comments in this thread about the recovery aren’t as optimistic as you are. It seems there is significant damage and it takes quite a long time to recover, if it does.
There's many variables, what kind of antibiotic, their biome before taking the antibiotics, what microbe species were killed and how many were harmed/killed, etc.
There's only a few total comments in this thread overall, I counted 2 anecdotes, not exactly a scientific consensus.
And people are more likely to comment when something goes bad than when something goes good *checks product feedback*
Overprescription of antibiotics and overuse of antibiotics in agriculture have both been known as public health risks for decades. So perhaps a little more prevention is the best cure could help address this.
Two distinct classes of antibiotics (neomycin and vancomycin) seem to induce ER stress in colonic cells which decreases mucus production and increases risk of bacterial inflammation etc. The point is that there appears to be a direct effect on the host mouse physiology. There are other classes of antibiotics that do not have this effect, phage would likely be one of them (there is a theory that phage provided a persistent immunity by dwelling in the mucus).
Not antibiotics are in the same class. If we could limit the fluoroquinolone class for none life threatening situations we can avoid some of the gravest issues.
Limiting antibiotics with livestock to only sick animals would require allowing them to live in decent conditions which would make everyone healthier.
This really needs to be broadcasted from the rooftops. Fluoroquinolones wreak massive havoc in their wake and should only be reserved for life threatening situations.
You should flag it then. If enough people agree - it will disappear. Otherwise, either it will fall off the front page or a healthy discussion will ensue. HN democracy at work.
No, but I did hold a First Responder certification, which gives me some qualification to peruse and actually speak on the subject, as I have medical experience and training to some degree (and things like shattered bowels were something we had to deal with frequently due to motorcycle accidents, so we got training there.)
It's already known that antibiotics do all sorts of things other than kill pathogenic organisms in our bodies, well known. What isn't known is the full breadth of the harmful effects they have and how to remediate them. This is yet another effect discovered. More will come.
I also know a thing that helps. We should also do that. Because if more did, then we would all be more better. Except for complicated reasons sometimes so it's best to always be balanced.
I have had very high (3x upper limit normal or more) levels of fecal secretory IgA ever since I took antibiotics in 2014. Also numerous health issues and allergies that developed ever since. Nothing has seemed to really work. I have to take antihistamines just to not feel like I need to go to the emergency room from reacting to things all the time. Pretty tilting since I developed these problems at such a young age. It felt like it completely robbed my life from me. And I'm fairly certain the antibiotics did it because the problems literally just developed in the months following, and some almost immediately after taking them. One of the drugs, ciprofloxacin, seemed to cause severe connective tissue problems that are actually permanent. It is over 10 years later and I still extremely readily tear tendons and ligaments, when before I took them I never once had any problems with any of my tendons or ligaments no matter what I did and no matter how often I did it. My first tendon issues ever were the month after taking it.
Did you bother taking or trying some good probiotics and maybe prebiotics? How about L-glutamine, collagen hydrolysate, vitamin C, MSM, glucosamine, chondroitin? Also quercetin.
There is a newssurvey software that you can use to do some automated survey of what's out there (if you don't want to do it manually).
My experience with antibiotics has been the opposite, that they have saved me more times than one, but then I never used ciprofloxacin.
Probiotic products can be very diverse in their coverage and usefulness. The one I like is Epic Pro 25.
In any case, how about folate as Quatrefolic? It has shown relevance in a related issue such as Ehlers-danlos affecting connective tissue. It is unclear if your homocysteine level is normal or not, but if it's not, it can probably be resolved by various B vitamins in good forms and doses.
In any case, I doubt you have tried newssurvey software to do a survey on:
1. What causes ciprofloxacin (or its class fluoroquinolones) to harm connective tissues?
2. What is its resolutions, whether pharmacological or nutritional or via supplements, or anything else?
> 1. What causes ciprofloxacin (or its class fluoroquinolones) to harm connective tissues?
mTOR Signaling
Fluoroquinolones are known to affect the mTOR (mammalian target of rapamycin) pathway, which is critical for protein synthesis, cell growth, and tissue repair. mTOR integrates signals from nutrients, growth factors, and energy status to regulate cellular anabolic processes like collagen synthesis and fibroblast activity. However, fluoroquinolones can induce oxidative stress and mitochondrial dysfunction, which may disrupt normal mTOR signaling. This interference can impair the normal anabolic functions of mTOR, potentially leading to diminished protein synthesis and weakened connective tissue repair.
Mitochondrial Dysfunction
Fluoroquinolones can damage mitochondrial DNA, which may reduce ATP production and impair cellular energy homeostasis. Since mTOR activity is energy-dependent, reduced ATP availability could downregulate mTOR signaling, inhibiting processes like fibroblast proliferation and collagen synthesis. This could explain the tendinopathy and cartilage damage sometimes associated with fluoroquinolone use.
Collagen Synthesis and Matrix Remodeling
The anabolic processes that support collagen production and extracellular matrix (ECM) remodeling are crucial for connective tissue integrity. Fluoroquinolones have been observed to impair collagen synthesis by disrupting the fibroblast function, and this may be due to their impact on the energy-intensive processes governed by mTOR.
Fluoroquinolones have also been reported to cause central nervous system (CNS) effects, including anxiety, tremors, and other neurological symptoms, suggesting an impact on adrenergic pathways. This dysregulation could interfere with normal stress adaptation mechanisms, including the modulation of inflammatory and regenerative processes in connective tissues.
Connective tissue healing depends on the body’s capacity to manage energy demands and stress responses during recovery. Fluoroquinolones can impair mitochondrial function and create an energy deficit at the cellular level, reducing the ability of fibroblasts to engage in critical processes like collagen synthesis and ECM remodeling. The systemic impact on both dopaminergic and adrenergic systems can further weaken the body’s ability to manage stress and energy during recovery, exacerbating the negative effects on tissue repair.
Fibroblasts and Collagen Production
Fibroblasts are the key cells responsible for producing collagen in connective tissues. Under conditions of oxidative stress and energy depletion, fibroblasts may enter a senescent state, reducing their capacity for collagen synthesis and matrix repair. This can lead to weakened connective tissue and increased susceptibility to injuries like tendon ruptures, which have been reported with fluoroquinolone use.
Collagen and Tendon Health
Fluoroquinolone-induced dysregulation of cell signaling, energy metabolism, and oxidative stress management all converge on a critical issue: the weakening of collagen structure and connective tissue integrity. This has been particularly evident in the association between fluoroquinolones and tendinopathy or tendon rupture, likely linked to the disruption of collagen synthesis, the downregulation of mTOR, and the stress on connective tissue cells such as fibroblasts.
If premature senescence is the mechanism, then quercetin, fisetin, and urolithin A are in general extremely relevant to fight it. Personally, I make sure to take collagen hydrolysate daily to assist the body.
Agree. Quercetin did help with recovery, but so did eating the equivalent amount of foods that contain it: Red Onions, Red Grapes, Berries, dark green veggies. Rather a lot of those of course, about 1 to 1.5 kg combined. I remember the clinically effective dose to fight colds and so on to be 500mg, but my body dumped quite a lot of that into the toilet, so I halved the dose on another occasion and the effect was the same and I recovered quicker that when not taking it. But again, those foods in adequately high amounts did enough, probably because they also give energy, vitamins, minerals as well.
Agree on the collagen as well, especially for recovery after injuries and after surgery.
Yes, 100%. But apparently, there are cases where fluoroquinolones cause long-lasting oxidative damage or mitochondrial dysfunction. The recovery of mTOR signaling then may be slower.
Even after the cessation of fluoroquinolones, prolonged oxidative stress can lead to chronic inflammation and collagen synthesis may remain impaired.
Ongoing mitochondrial damage can reduce the cell's capacity to respond to anabolic signals, potentially leading to prolonged weakness in connective tissue and a higher risk of tendon damage. The slow recovery of mitochondrial function may lead to extended mTOR inhibition in tissues like tendons and ligaments.
This bit is especially interesting:
Fluoroquinolones also impact dopaminergic and adrenergic systems, which regulate the body's stress response (via dopamine and norepinephrine). This disruption can affect how the body handles both acute and chronic stress, with potential long-term changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis. Dysregulation in the HPA axis could affect cortisol production, impacting inflammation, immune function, and tissue repair over an extended period.
Long-term impacts and the systemic nature of chronic inflammation, mitochondrial damage, and persistent oxidative stress can lead to structural or functional deficits in tissues that were secondarily affected during the acute phase of stress and disruption, which can manifest as persistent dysfunction, pain, or delayed healing.
Have you tried a 3 to 6 month long retreat at an organic farm with no supps and only the meds that you really need? You can bring your gear and build games there, too.
I wanted to dive into the production of all the different supps for a while but intuition tells me it'll end up in some reverse confirmation bias aka "job security and esoterically enhanced anti-pla-no-cebo thinking" ... and that kills my mood.
Even if you never got a SIBO diagnosis, look into the mBiota elemental diet course they offer. 2 weeks of it has been proven to normalize the gut microbiome for SIBO patients (methane & hydrogen).
I also had a very negative reaction to ciprofloxacin and later moxifloxacin (I took them for different infections). In any case, I haven’t suffered tendon issues just neurological effects (hard to describe how my cognition changed but I was simply unable to sleep for several days until I stopped the medication prematurely).
If it's not AS then no idea - I assume they did the gene testing and whatnot.
Lot of people swear by this odd Japanese fermented food called Natto - might help. It's basically just soybeans. Uses a very unique bacteria though. Most Asian markets have it
It is most important to take a very good probiotic capsule about three hours after taking every antibiotic pill. If you choose not to take it, the shock to the gut can be profound. Also, things like L-glutamine are good for helping the gut heal to the extent that it can.
Chocolate milk contains sugar, not probiotics. I would consider it fairly detrimental to adult gut health. It is okay for children, for teenagers, not for grownups.
Sugar is pretty bad for teeth, and also risks diabetes. Sugar also suppresses the immune systems, thereby seriously risking infections and even cancer. Sugar is effectively a carcinogen.
Annual vaccines are much more convenient and are preferable to one-off treatments like antibiotics, (which reduce the nations GDP as well because of they "cure" the problem cheaply), and have proven to be safe.
I call for an immediate ban on antibiotics. Only high ranking members of society should have access. And people with good social credit scores.
Unfortunately we still need oral antibiotics for things like Lyme Disease and Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever. As tick-borne illnesses go up with longer summer seasons, we'll probably have to prescribe more antibiotics. Oh well
A lot of comments here claiming we need antibiotics. I can't disagree. But what can be said about the antibiotics we use on livestock? From my understanding it is a heck of a lot. When we then eat the meat do we essentially ingest 'unnecessary' antibiotics and do they contribute to the type of effect described in the article?
I have never heard anyone suggest that the meat sold by the meat industry contains antibiotics, and from some quick googling, it seems like US federal regulations require that meat is "antibiotics-free" (meaning antibiotic levels below some threshold), and they regularly screen the meat https://www.ars.usda.gov/news-events/news/research-news/2019...
I didn't find what exactly the regulatory limit for "antibiotics-free" is, but from a glance, this looks like a non-issue.
Now over-use of antibiotics in meat production is obviously a huge problem for other reasons, namely that it breeds antibiotic resistant bacteria.
Antibiotic misuse is a huge problem and even leading to resistance.
It is a good thing that we are developing verbose pathogen panels to ensure we don’t prescribe antibiotics when we have viral infections and vice versa.
Additionally the upcoming AI discovered targeted antibiotics will be game changer to remove negative or benign pathogens while maintaining your good cultures.
The challenge is that some become friends and some become foes depending on the diversity and quantity of certain species.
Gut microbiome discoveries are going to change the way we see disease in this next decade.
72 comments
[ 3.8 ms ] story [ 132 ms ] threadCombining some reports from various places:
> Infection of the stomach with H. pylori is not the cause of illness itself; over half of the global population is infected but most are asymptomatic.
> Infection with H. pylori is responsible for around 89 per cent of all gastric cancers
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori )
> 770,000 deaths of gastric cancer were estimated in 2020
( https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5... )
58 million deaths worldwide in 2019 according to https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/number-of-deaths-per-year ; I picked 2019 instead of 2020 because 2020 features a spike in deaths for reasons that I'm assuming are unrelated to cancer.
That puts gastric cancer deaths from H. pylori at just under 1.2% of all deaths, which frankly seems ridiculously high.
https://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/stomach.html suggests that stomach cancer is 1.8% of all cancer deaths (in the USA), which is perfectly compatible with the above statistics as long as cancer is the cause of 67% of all deaths.
The death rate from stomach cancer is about 3 per 100,000 people (in the USA). The overall death rate, per https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/79486, is 864 per 100,000, putting stomach cancer at 0.3% of all deaths. In the USA.
Is this actually something we worry about? Most people are infected; virtually no one gets cancer.
PSA: get yourself checked. The treatment will literally destroy all your gut bacteria and renew your stomach to a healthier state. It will be a miserable two weeks though.
I've got symptoms, but this would scare me even if I didn't.
We need antibiotics. I don't want to go back into the world my parents lived in before they existed, I'd prefer to be in the world I was born into when they still had significant effect without wildcat over-use.
Would phage therapy avoid the problem?
"RESULTS Oral antibiotic treatment disrupts the colonic mucus barrier"
Intraveinous administration may or may not cause the same effect, or a similar effect. Maybe oral antibiotics is generally a bad idea because it disrupts the microbiome, but in other forms it's generally fine.
That's why you're told to take yogurt/other fermented foods after taking antibiotics, to provide a reproductive environment for them to grow.
However it's still a risk you could kill off a whole species and lose their function, so probably best not to take antibiotics unless you really have to.
It's an easy analysis process though, you try to recover for a couple days, if you cannot and no virus is detected, you take antibiotics.
If it's a bacterial infection and it's spreading you have to take antibiotics, otherwise you die and all of your microbes die with you.
There's only a few total comments in this thread overall, I counted 2 anecdotes, not exactly a scientific consensus.
And people are more likely to comment when something goes bad than when something goes good *checks product feedback*
It caused a gut condition that involved nausea, insomnia, and made it difficult to concentrate.
It was also causing me psychologically to feel as if the rug had been pulled out from under me - I didn't know what I was doing anymore.
Limiting antibiotics with livestock to only sick animals would require allowing them to live in decent conditions which would make everyone healthier.
No, but I did hold a First Responder certification, which gives me some qualification to peruse and actually speak on the subject, as I have medical experience and training to some degree (and things like shattered bowels were something we had to deal with frequently due to motorcycle accidents, so we got training there.)
It's already known that antibiotics do all sorts of things other than kill pathogenic organisms in our bodies, well known. What isn't known is the full breadth of the harmful effects they have and how to remediate them. This is yet another effect discovered. More will come.
There is a newssurvey software that you can use to do some automated survey of what's out there (if you don't want to do it manually).
My experience with antibiotics has been the opposite, that they have saved me more times than one, but then I never used ciprofloxacin.
In any case, how about folate as Quatrefolic? It has shown relevance in a related issue such as Ehlers-danlos affecting connective tissue. It is unclear if your homocysteine level is normal or not, but if it's not, it can probably be resolved by various B vitamins in good forms and doses.
In any case, I doubt you have tried newssurvey software to do a survey on:
1. What causes ciprofloxacin (or its class fluoroquinolones) to harm connective tissues?
2. What is its resolutions, whether pharmacological or nutritional or via supplements, or anything else?
mTOR Signaling
Fluoroquinolones are known to affect the mTOR (mammalian target of rapamycin) pathway, which is critical for protein synthesis, cell growth, and tissue repair. mTOR integrates signals from nutrients, growth factors, and energy status to regulate cellular anabolic processes like collagen synthesis and fibroblast activity. However, fluoroquinolones can induce oxidative stress and mitochondrial dysfunction, which may disrupt normal mTOR signaling. This interference can impair the normal anabolic functions of mTOR, potentially leading to diminished protein synthesis and weakened connective tissue repair.
Mitochondrial Dysfunction
Fluoroquinolones can damage mitochondrial DNA, which may reduce ATP production and impair cellular energy homeostasis. Since mTOR activity is energy-dependent, reduced ATP availability could downregulate mTOR signaling, inhibiting processes like fibroblast proliferation and collagen synthesis. This could explain the tendinopathy and cartilage damage sometimes associated with fluoroquinolone use.
Collagen Synthesis and Matrix Remodeling
The anabolic processes that support collagen production and extracellular matrix (ECM) remodeling are crucial for connective tissue integrity. Fluoroquinolones have been observed to impair collagen synthesis by disrupting the fibroblast function, and this may be due to their impact on the energy-intensive processes governed by mTOR.
Fluoroquinolones have also been reported to cause central nervous system (CNS) effects, including anxiety, tremors, and other neurological symptoms, suggesting an impact on adrenergic pathways. This dysregulation could interfere with normal stress adaptation mechanisms, including the modulation of inflammatory and regenerative processes in connective tissues.
Connective tissue healing depends on the body’s capacity to manage energy demands and stress responses during recovery. Fluoroquinolones can impair mitochondrial function and create an energy deficit at the cellular level, reducing the ability of fibroblasts to engage in critical processes like collagen synthesis and ECM remodeling. The systemic impact on both dopaminergic and adrenergic systems can further weaken the body’s ability to manage stress and energy during recovery, exacerbating the negative effects on tissue repair.
Fibroblasts and Collagen Production
Fibroblasts are the key cells responsible for producing collagen in connective tissues. Under conditions of oxidative stress and energy depletion, fibroblasts may enter a senescent state, reducing their capacity for collagen synthesis and matrix repair. This can lead to weakened connective tissue and increased susceptibility to injuries like tendon ruptures, which have been reported with fluoroquinolone use.
Collagen and Tendon Health
Fluoroquinolone-induced dysregulation of cell signaling, energy metabolism, and oxidative stress management all converge on a critical issue: the weakening of collagen structure and connective tissue integrity. This has been particularly evident in the association between fluoroquinolones and tendinopathy or tendon rupture, likely linked to the disruption of collagen synthesis, the downregulation of mTOR, and the stress on connective tissue cells such as fibroblasts.
Some Sources:
[ ] https://academic.oup.com/bmb/article/130/1/39/5366272
[ ] https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2016/ra/c6ra1...
[ ] https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/physi...
Agree on the collagen as well, especially for recovery after injuries and after surgery.
Wouldn't mTOR signaling dysfunction cease within a short while after ceasing fluoroquinolones, say a few weeks to a few months?
Even after the cessation of fluoroquinolones, prolonged oxidative stress can lead to chronic inflammation and collagen synthesis may remain impaired.
Ongoing mitochondrial damage can reduce the cell's capacity to respond to anabolic signals, potentially leading to prolonged weakness in connective tissue and a higher risk of tendon damage. The slow recovery of mitochondrial function may lead to extended mTOR inhibition in tissues like tendons and ligaments.
This bit is especially interesting:
Fluoroquinolones also impact dopaminergic and adrenergic systems, which regulate the body's stress response (via dopamine and norepinephrine). This disruption can affect how the body handles both acute and chronic stress, with potential long-term changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis. Dysregulation in the HPA axis could affect cortisol production, impacting inflammation, immune function, and tissue repair over an extended period.
Long-term impacts and the systemic nature of chronic inflammation, mitochondrial damage, and persistent oxidative stress can lead to structural or functional deficits in tissues that were secondarily affected during the acute phase of stress and disruption, which can manifest as persistent dysfunction, pain, or delayed healing.
I wanted to dive into the production of all the different supps for a while but intuition tells me it'll end up in some reverse confirmation bias aka "job security and esoterically enhanced anti-pla-no-cebo thinking" ... and that kills my mood.
I also had a very negative reaction to ciprofloxacin and later moxifloxacin (I took them for different infections). In any case, I haven’t suffered tendon issues just neurological effects (hard to describe how my cognition changed but I was simply unable to sleep for several days until I stopped the medication prematurely).
Lot of people swear by this odd Japanese fermented food called Natto - might help. It's basically just soybeans. Uses a very unique bacteria though. Most Asian markets have it
How do you know the issues that you started to have were due to the antibiotics and not due to the infection?
(I am in the same boat, BTW, so asking this question to get to the root cause of my problem as well)
I had a UTI/prostatitis doubtful that causes the symptoms I developed
You can solve this problem easily by drinking from any local water source instead of your tap.
I call for an immediate ban on antibiotics. Only high ranking members of society should have access. And people with good social credit scores.
I didn't find what exactly the regulatory limit for "antibiotics-free" is, but from a glance, this looks like a non-issue.
Now over-use of antibiotics in meat production is obviously a huge problem for other reasons, namely that it breeds antibiotic resistant bacteria.
Please let's not forget the important suffix.
It is a good thing that we are developing verbose pathogen panels to ensure we don’t prescribe antibiotics when we have viral infections and vice versa.
Additionally the upcoming AI discovered targeted antibiotics will be game changer to remove negative or benign pathogens while maintaining your good cultures.
The challenge is that some become friends and some become foes depending on the diversity and quantity of certain species.
Gut microbiome discoveries are going to change the way we see disease in this next decade.
Pretty compelling findings and the ramifications are huge!