Ask HN: What breakthrough helped you build and maintain better relationships?
Pretty much just the title.
As a very small, but highly frequent example, I’ll invite an acquaintance to get a coffee or beer with me a few times but never have this acquaintance seemingly think of me if I’m not directly asking them to hang.
I can’t really figure out why. Maybe I’m a boring person? Maybe I’m abrasive? Maybe most people like to stay in a perpetual state of acquaintance-ness?
How do you fix something like this if you can’t diagnose what’s wrong?
96 comments
[ 2.1 ms ] story [ 162 ms ] threadI will accept almost every social engagement with people I like, though.
So: maybe it's not you.
You have to risk the relationship - the very thoughts you fear, the thoughts "Oh, I could never ask that, they'll hate me."
Those thoughts. You have to voice them.
It's the only way to maintain intimacy and reveal who you truly are.
For gelling with new people and bringing them into your own circle, it's good to understand that it's a numbers game too. Figuring out social groups that you enjoy should always be the main goal. I have real life friends who love climbing, and we already budgeted time for climbing, so we usually hang out before or after a session and it hits all the same. Similarly, online friends who like building video games like me can sometimes spare the time to play or develop together.
Increasing your surface area in this way is a great way to start! As you get acquainted with more people, the chances that you have at least one person to hang out with at any time increases greatly, and in turn that they will want to hang out with you.
A colleague might be a fun character telling stories over a beer but also professionally useless.
If a colleague invited me out for a coffee - and we didn't really know each other in the office - I would be suspicious as to their motive.
What we tried to do was basically inviting all our neighbors over, always being nice without trying too hard. At first some would not even say hello back. After a while we developed relationships that are not very deep yet, but we’re getting somewhere. It takes time, a lot of time.
What I would suggest is that you try many different people (neighbors, fellow parents from school, work colleagues) if one relationship doesn’t pan out. Eventually you’ll find someone with whom you will “click”. For me the best relationships I got was with the former work colleagues, we just kept in touch and hanged out after work.
Rather than try to change how that person responds to you, you can either work on being ok with how little they initiate, or you can put effort into other (or finding new) relationships where people will initiate more.
People also go through busy and less busy times - so maybe try again with this person in 6 months and see if things are different.
There are so many different kinds of people (with so many different preferences), that I really think your time is better spent finding new people that you click more with, rather than trying to change yourself.
Anecdotally, I desire to hang out with people who share my interests and want to do similar activities that we both enjoy.
I’m a few years removed from college now, and it’s highlighted to me just how special living closely with people of similar age and interest does for one’s social life. Once you spread out, gain dependents, work, etc… it’s much more of an effort to stay in touch.
Just because someone doesn’t reciprocate your effort to connect doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t want to hang out with you.
One of them is that this kind of people are generally in the minds of their friends/acquaintances. And one of the reasons there is that they see them as very good listeners during conversations. They match their conversation style, they confirm what they’ve been talking about with feedback and this sort of behaviour that tend to help people build trust and friendships.
I’m not done with the book yet, but I can see many things relating to what I generally practice. And I’ve got good friends :)
If people agree to hang out with you 45% of the time, that's really great.
Most of my circle is busy enough that my personal rate is somewhere between 20% and 30%.
Try giving people a longer notice. Like maybe a full week instead of a couple of days. This should help them fit you into their schedule. People are just really busy these days.
It's not your fault.
I think we’re kind of similar in that we are people who invite people places. That is our role. I look at this as being kind of like rbac - we have the role “organizer” which gives us access to the invite method.
If I were you, I’d stop worrying about reciprocation. Believe me, I know how hard that is because we’re kind of built to see reciprocation as success. But in this case, I worry that you’re trying to find problems that don’t exist.
Keep on inviting people out - you’re a good person, doing good work and you’re on the front lines fighting loneliness in other people. I don’t see an issue, in fact I just see a lot worth emulating.
If you ever get feedback that suggests the issue is you, feel free to write again. But I don’t see anything worth fixing, though I see a lot worth emulating.
(2) Be Childlike in your approach to life and relationships
(1) Honest Living
If your boring (and I don't know if you are), its probably because you stopped pursuing things that you wanted and excited you for something safe. Boring people also mask their emotions when speaking to people to avoid rejection.
To find people you genuinely connect with, you need to express yourself fully. Honest expressions will make you more polarizing, and you will experience rejection. But the people you connect with will be much deeper because they see who you actually are.
Honest living usually means some therapy or self reflection to identify the things in your life you stopped purusing. A simple litmus test: you are in a social situation and see a person you find attractive. Do you make excuses for not talking to them or go and talk to them, openly stating your interest?
(2) Childlike
Children play until they get hurt or get in trouble. Do you approach relationships with this attitude? Is your heart open to loving other people even if it hurts and they reject you?
Imagine you start a job, and you meet a coworker, who is well groomed, well spoken, and he just starts small chat with you, doing all the strategies in the book of "building you up". You would probably feel good.
Now imagine the same situation except you have a coworker who is socially awkward and speaks in a monotone voice, doesn't do small chat, and right away starts asking very probing questions. You would probably be annoyed as fuck.
I CAN enjoy and get along with the other type, but it’s much more fruitful and I’m more likely to seek to spend time with those who offer something to engage with. I have very limited time so I’d prefer to spend it profitably.
But yeah, people like that can definitely be more weird, uncomfortable, and downright awkward, for sure. No doubt many in this forum can too. I try to just have patience and suppress my natural irritation for the sake of learning something, or discovering interesting things about a person I wouldn’t have otherwise. I’ve certainly committed the opposite error too, in rejecting people socially who later turned out to be pretty cool and unique despite their flaws and foibles.
But like, for the majority of folks, you definitely need to be able to hang and be comfortably normal, too. I just see that as a less profitable way to allocate my time usually.
I might be undiagnosed / high-functioning autistic spectrum though so take it with a grain of salt, but many people in tech are.
Treating relationsips non-transactionally, helped me. Sure, sometimes I might feel a bit disappointed. That's a hazard of para-social thinking. Relationships have asymmetries. Hence the friendship paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_paradox
Maybe I’m a boring person?
Well half of all people are more boring than average...But mostly adult lives are complex. You probably don't rate as highly as someone's child, partner, or established social circle. These are long term relationships. Good luck.
Disinhibition is a social lubricant. We are so used to being safe because that's what the workplace requires, that we've lost the ability to be disinhibited around closer relationships. People who can be disinhibited and show their flaws are really attractive. But it doesn't come free, some people will reject you more. And that's ok.
I'm nearly 50 and an extrovert and I've found that healthy and fulfilling relations are a function of reciprocity.
I'm willing to engage with someone 3x and see if they'll reciprocate. If not, I move on--no hard feelings, just realizing it's not a mutual fit.
This rule has served me immensely well in my friends. As a result, I have nearly no loose friends--just very tight, reliable connections.
>Are You Your Friends’ Friend? Poor Perception of Friendship Ties Limits the Ability to Promote Behavioral Change
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
Trying to make convo circumstances and process perfect cannot solve mental issues or deeply ingrained habbits. Not quickly anyway, perhaps not at all. But for damn sure, it's thinking in the right direction!
I am currently wanting to apply this "even" to friendships but run into the issue that people "don't have time".
Many people don't think twice about friendships (of any kind). It's them.
You are not their top of the list attraction (of any kind). It's you.
But then too, when you are lucky enough to find someone who really clicks with you, do ask them to critique your approach. Sadly in many cultures including the US, this is just "not done". Not considered appropriate. Even when you ask. That's so sad. No wonder we are lonely.
It's not so much reciprocity... but, some sort of personal investment. If I don't think someone is fully into "$thing", then I'll save the spot for someone who is. There are shades to relationships, most of mine have not been great. It's a defense mechanism - I know I'm not the target.
I don't recommend any of this, really. Just to make considerations. I'm closer with some of my coworkers than most of my family, yet I'm not that keen. Most of the time, at least. It's strange. Incredibly dynamic.
I would benefit greatly from more people like you who actually do make an effort. Yet, I'd disappoint you and feel terrible about it. I think I'm always prepared for things to go south, expecting it - perhaps causing it.
You don't "fix" it, you just fine-tune your behavior models.
Make of yourself something that people need and/or want (which is often something they'll eventually outright signal that they're missing). Don't make yourself dependable, but desirable.
Empathy and compassion are fickle resources because if you are superficial about expressing them, people will notice.
Sound advice and expertise are nice but limited in scope and frequency, and require some reputation and trust building.
In most informal contexts most people are prone to oversharing to a keen ear. So become an active listener, pretend to be genuinely interested (but not necessarily empathic) about people's experiences and throw in something relatable to them on the way, pretend to be more stupid than them, grease their egos while playing an innocent contrarian, and eventually they'll think you're a great person and invite you to their secret boring, pretentious and utterly tasteless wine drinking clubs. If that's what you want then you win.
This is a great start! You’re already doing what most people find the hardest: making the first move.
Grabbing coffee, and even going out to dinner, aren’t good activities for making deep connections. They’re too short and too routine. They can work, it’ll just take longer, and you will have to work harder to make sure conversation is meaningful.
I think the best way to make real friendships is to go on a weekend trip somewhere together. First of all, you’re spending days together instead of hours, but more importantly, you’ll have a shared experience to remember. You get to see what someone is like not only during activities and meals, but also during downtime.
Weekend trips could be awkward if it’s just one on one though, so if you don’t have a group, the next best thing is doing an activity together. Figure out a shared interest, then invite your new friend to do something you’d both enjoy. Maybe it’s a concert, talk, hike, whatever. Do that a few times and your new friend will associate you with that activity. Next time they’re going to a concert/talk/hike or whatever, they’ll invite you to tag along.
People are busy and don’t think about others most of the time. Most live in their own world.
If they get an invite, they’ll often be happy to mix things up and meet. Then most go back to their normal routine.
Give off relaxed and breezy vibes. It’s easy to sense when someone is trying too hard. Most don’t want an another obligation in life, so they don’t want another thing they need to be bothered by. However, a friend that is casual works out better.
Amount of time between hanging out has naturally gotten further apart. Allow yourself to be okay with this aspect.
Don’t take things personally. Be your natural and genuine self.
Good luck!
We tend to not get personal and if you don't have deeper more meaningful conversations with someone you can't really become "friends."
I've only had a few friends my entire life and I've lost most of them.
I suppose it's the time I spend with them doing stuff (activities like games or sports) that gives us the ability to be more personal, gradually