Show HN: I designed an espresso machine and coffee grinder (velofuso.com)
I felt like espresso machines were getting very large, plasticky, and app-integrated without actually improving the underlying technologies that make them work. The noisy vibratory pumps in particular are from 1977 and haven’t really changed since then. So I wanted to focus on making the most advanced internals I could and leaving everything else as minimalist as possible. The pump is, as far as I know, completely unique in terms of power density and price. Without spending several thousand dollars, it was difficult to find a machine with a gear pump, and adjustable pressure was also similarly expensive but this machine has those things and costs a normal amount to buy. You can also turn the pressure way down and make filter coffee.
I also saw so many people (including myself) using a scale while making espresso, and even putting a cup below the group head to catch drips, entirely negating the drip tray, so I basically designed for that! The profile of the machine is much lighter on the eyes and doesn’t loom in the corner like my old espresso machine did.
And for the grinder, basically everything on the market uses conical and flat burrs that have descended from spice grinders, and the same couple of standard sizes. Sometimes larger companies design their own burrs, but only within those existing shapes. There is sort of a rush to put larger and larger burrs into coffee grinders, which makes sense, but with cylindrical burrs, you can increase the cutting surface way more relative to the size of the grinder. When grinders get too big, maintaining alignment becomes mechanically cumbersome, but the cylindrical burr can be very well supported from the inside, and there is the added benefit of hiding the entire motor within the burr itself. The resulting grounds are just outright better than all the other grinders I have used, but obviously this is a matter of taste and my own personal bias.
The biggest downside for the grinder is that it doesn’t work with starbucks style oily roasts, because the coffee expands so much while traveling down through the burrs and can sometimes clog up the teeth. It doesn’t hurt the grinder but it does require cleaning (which is tool-free!). Another downside for both machines is the fact that they run on DC power so it’s best if you have a spot in your kitchen to tuck away the power brick.
I also made a kit that makes the gear pump a drop-in upgrade for other espresso machines, to reduce noise and add adjustable pressure.
https://velofuso.com/store/p/gear-pump-upgrade-kit
The roughest part of this process were the moments midway through development where they weren’t working at all. When the grinder is just jamming itself instantly or the fourth factory in a row tells you the part you’re making is impossible or the pump is alternating between spraying water out the side and into your face and not pumping at all. And the default thought is “Of course it’s not working, if this was going to work someone else would have already made it like this”. The route you’ve taken is fundamentally different enough that there are no existing solutions to draw on. You’re basically feeling around in the dark for months on end, burning money, and then one day, every little cumulative change suddenly adds up to a tasty espresso. And it’s not perfect yet, but you at least can see the road ahead.
Anyways, this is way more than I expected to write, thank you for reading! Tell me if you have any questions
485 comments
[ 6.4 ms ] story [ 397 ms ] threadI'll try to be helpful, so allow me to point out that near the bottom of the espresso machine, the grinder is called Oculo, guess you changed that mid-way? Also, do you consider it necessary to open new tabs when you go from the home page to the two sub-pages with your products? I mean you stay on the same domain so why open a new tab? I find that's unexpected.
Lastly, I didn't quite grasp how the cylindrical burr works and how one can adjust ground size with this arrangement. I'd really appreciate a schematic! Also I think you are totally allowed to right-out dis flat burrs because of their inherent weaknesses. As for oily roasts, that's my preferred roast, the coffee's so much better and also my hand grinder feels so much better, so it's a shame if I couldn't use a burr with those.
Other than that, good luck with your project!
So essentially the adjustment works the same as conical and flat burrs, except the burrs need to move way more for the same amount of adjustment (it’s about 19:1, instead of 1:1 for flat and conical). When the engineering problems are worked out with the grinder basically telescoping, this translates to much more repeatability in adjustments.
I definitely hear you on dark roasts, I like them as well, and I will absolutely make an alternate burr set that is more flexible - it’s just a matter of what to prioritize when launching a decently high priced grinder, where light and medium roasts benefit the most from the attention.
And argh yes oculo was a working name when the hopper looked more like an eye but now it looks less like an eye! Thanks for catching that. I’ll change the tab behavior, I wasn’t sure how to handle that.
Coffee community is talking about this grinder, the world is bigger than HN, etc.. etc..
A huge pain to install as it's so stiff and needs special tools and fittings to keep it from absorbing water from the air. It has a large bend radius, and it only good for fixed installation as it will crack open if you bend it a few times. And it's nearly £1000 for 100m. So it's not very popular these days.
Plastic really is an annoyingly wonderous category of material when you consider the flexibility, insulation, mechanical, thermal and chemical resistance it can have (and the price)!
How does it compare noise-wise?
It is easy to say the espresso machine is the quietest because basically everything else uses the same pump, which is way louder and more annoying than ours, but grinders are much more variable not just in terms of noise level but also how annoying the noise is.
Congrats on the launch btw OP
I’m not quite sure I understand where the hot water is added, but I like not having a boiler.
In any case, congratulations!
(Unless you're comfortable with that of course!)
Also, for $700 independent reviews are also a must.
For the pump kit - this too looks interesting, but requires (way) more details. At the very least a list of supported machines and, again, a video or two of an actual retrofit. Dimensions, voltage (!), etc.
> The result is a freedom to use a far more thermally stable source of hot water - like the kettle you already have. And because no water is stored in the machine - it’s fresh every time.
Seems like a interesting idea, but I feel like there is a crucial point missing. What if I do not want a random water tube hanging into my water kettle? Feels like that is a big hole in a otherwise great thought through product.
I know they exist but I've only ever seen one house with such a tap and that was a very well off family member. I don't think these are terribly common.
How's your experience been? Do you preheat your mug before brewing? I like tea strong and dark!
As for pre-heating, I tend to use it to pre-heat my wife's tea mug and my coffee cup before I brew with the espresso machine in the kitchen, by filling it part way for a few seconds and then pouring away; mostly to take the chill off, as our kitchen can be cold in the mornings.
I know there are lots of other cheaper brands but my understanding from researching several of them a few years back was that many/most of the cheaper ones won't keep up with the Quooker, won't be as reliable, and likely won't have the after sales support as a product from a company that specialised in that single product. There are the office ones you speak of but they're been weaker performing in my anecdotal experience of our office, and often come with service contracts.
I reckon hipsters will be drinking filter in a few years' time, if they aren't already.
As for hot water taps for tea, if you are brewing black/red tea that is usually not good enough as they don't produce truly boiling water, although some do claim to.
Those boiling water tanks would be very hard for a child to access without a lot of effort. Those boiling taps are sometimes close to the cold/warm water tap.
This problem is solved in its entirety by simply microwaving a cup of water. No wasted water.
If the same / similar cup is used, one can choose the desired temperature of the resultant hot water simply by varying the time. Seasonal variation of ambient water temperature may need to be taken into account.
I tend not to drink coffee, and I prefer to make tea with less-than-boiling water.
YMMV
</opinion.
Now that I’ve written that, I’ll have to put a power meter on the microwave and a kettle and report back with the results. My kettle recently broke and I hadn’t intended to replace.
If a microwave was more efficient, I'd expect to see premium kettles that used microwaves instead of a simple heating element, though maybe there'd be design problems with preventing leaking microwaves.
For my use cases, I’m not looking to actually boil the water, bringing it up to 80 plus degrees suffices.
The inefficiency kettles bring is the tendency of certain users to heat way more water than their immediate needs.
220ml, regular ceramic mug, one minute forty, does what I need, but I’m not tea or coffee connoisseur, just a prole with a box of Twinings loose leaf.
Thanks for the kettle reference, I have been meaning to find a temperature controlled unit.
I recently picked up an inexpensive Thomson branded electric frypan with digital temperature and time controls, well impressed.
The 3L tank that holds the hot water, under the sink is well insulated and it takes almost nothing to keep it at temperature.
Given that it uses such negligible energy that I needn't care, the benefits of instant boiling water whenever we like and not having an extra appliance no the counter-top make it a clear winner for us.
My wife drinks tea (I'm a coffee drinker) and I make tea (just simple, English Breakfast with milk) for her quite often, and we both use it for cooking. It was something she'd always wanted, and she's not much into "gadgets" but she's been very happy with this, so I'm happy.
There's several around - I've got one that allows you to choose between 70°C, 80°C, 90°C and boiling (along with a keep-warm option that's never used). I use the 80°C option all the time for making coffee (Aeropress) and use the 70°C for things like green tea (black tea should be 100°C of course).
It's a mistake to use boiling water when making coffee - it'll extract a bitter flavour.
That's really cool, I suppose I haven't really looked, being a coffee drinker, a kettle was never important to me.
> It's a mistake to use boiling water when making coffee - it'll extract a bitter flavour.
I have two espresso machines, one in the kitchen and one in my home office, I also have an Aeropress like yourself, love it, but I only use that for travelling. Wouldn't dare pour boiling water over my freshly ground coffee :)
The only annoying thing about it is that the fill indicator is rather hidden by the handle, but otherwise we really like it.
I never understood why so many kettles always put the fill indicator behind the handle, which of course you'd be holding when filling it up. The first time I saw one with a large, clearly graduated window on the side (and wasn't also a cheap, white plastic kettle) I was impressed, being the nerd I am.
The biggest problem I've had so far was that Amazon seems to only stock used/counterfeit units. Buying direct from OXO got me on that hadn't been used and didn't reek of volatile organic compounds on the first try.
This is slighly terrifying; and interesting that something like this would be counterfeited. I too would make any and all efforts to ensure I was using something legit where mains (240V for me) are concerned.
I once bought a knock-off hot-air soldering station without knowing, and once I looked into it, people were complaining they'd received units where the live was "grounded" to the case.
I opened mine to check, not quite as bad, but the live in mine wasn't attached to the metal case, just bare, and within about 1cm of it. I reported it to the retailer (we all know which major online retailer this was), and they did nothing. Let's just say things changed, seriously, for me that day when it comes to buying anything mains powered with uncertain origins.
ThermoWorks refused to sell their products on Amazon for quite a while. Apparently they've changed their stance but I wouldn't risk it.
Anyways the kettle is nice to have that I use daily for coffee even though I now have an induction stove with burners that are far more powerful than the kettle. Stateside, circuits for electric ranges are 240V, 50A (occasionally 40A on older buildings).
Hot drinks can be a bit of a ritual, as I'm sure you understand as an aeropress user, so I don't mind a bit of work to get the right brew if I need to do it, in fact one of the things I enjoy about taking my aeropress when I'm travelling whether camping or any other break, is having my coffee ritual with me.
The energy usage is indeed minimal; I've measured it with a power meter over a couple of months and barely used a fraction of a kWh.
There are other boiling water taps, but Quooker is incredibly well built, really simple, and was created in an era of making things to last, it's got a price tag to match, but well worth it in our households opinion.
When a kitchen serves 100+ people things like limescale will inevitably be a problem. If the steaming hot water tap is plumbed in, with replaceable water filters and a regular service contract - that's an advantage, not a disadvantage.
Steaming hot water taps can supply lots of hot water fast, so even if a load of people are making drinks at the same time in between meetings, they can keep up.
There's also a safety argument that if you've got a kettle and a mug, that's two things of boiling water you could drop, and eliminating one of the two makes things safer. And because the steaming hot water tap is directly above a drain, the impact of a spill is much reduced. And a lot of these taps make water that is steaming but somewhat below boiling, which might be safer or something?
Not sure why you'd want one for home though.
Different teas require different and specific temperatures for optimal results. A hot water tap cannot do this. I love the minimalism in the product design for this!
The cheapest ones are about 10x the cheapest kettles. Can't imagine wanting to go back to a kettle personally.
I have never seen that anywhere at houses I visited in France, Germany, Italy, Poland, a few US.
I am not saying that this is not a thing, it is just that "so many" depends on the demographics.
Adding a boiler I'd guess would double the price, so I think it's a good decision to leave off.
If thermal stability is important enough to make such an advertising claim, you should probably show a comparison of input temperatures where the water meets the coffee over the course of multiple cycles against a representative competitor. With actual data rather than stylised cartoon graphs like in TV adverts for washing powder or whatever.
Woolly claims like that without clear evidence really make sound like audiophile woo territory, which would be a shame if you've actually done the research!
Traditional E61 espresso machines whose water boiler is at ΔT cm's away from the group head, solve the problem of temperature surf with heavy duty pipes, boilers, isolation and materials to keep the temperature loss at the minimum.
More modern espresso machines place the water boiler just above the group head so they're basically solving the problem other way around: keeping the ΔT at minimum so giving no or minimum space for temperature loss.
As for this design, I am not sure how does it solve this problem.
But everyone is terrified of mokasplosion.
I’ll admit, the prospect of a pressurized vessel of boiling water is a potent reminder for precautionary thinking.
The custom where I am at is to load the moka pot with a grind and quantity that produces a significant barrier to the flow of water.
The alert that the brew is finished is the sound of the boiling hot water and steam spraying the coffee through the standpipe into the upper chamber, and it is absolutely under steam pressure, I’d say around 5 to 10 psi.
When the liquid water is low enough that it doesn’t get picked up by the lower tube, you get a significant outflow of pure steam hissing through the standpipe nozzle, and then it’s quiet, as the bottom chamber is now completely dry, as are the grounds when you dump them out.
It could be that if you use a coarser grind or less coffee than is customary here, flow restriction does not occur, and the pressure of the heated air and water vapor is enough to push out all of the water through the coffee without reaching 100c (should only take about 1/6 psi for a flow overcoming gravity to that height) but if you used that method here your coffee would fall under heavy criticism.
The violence with which the flow jets into the upper chamber and the volume and aroma of the steam serves somewhat as a social signal as to the “quality” of the coffee, so there is a strong incentive to heavily load the pots here.
Legends of exploding pots are common, as is precautionary disposal of pots whose threads have become excessively worn.
But I still have no first hand knowledge of anyone witnessing an explosion or even an over pressure venting event (there is a small pressure relief valve on the side of the vessel)…. So I suspect that the risk is not that high.
He, like many others, do little more than just read spec sheets.
I like his car related content though, reckless driving notwithstanding
Another high-hour channel for me is Petter of Mentour Pilot.
As an Australian, those two guys accents their way of framing things are like mum’s lullabies.
That is not to say that I personally take all or most of Hoffman's suggestions at face value. It's abundantly clear that the level of nuance he considers in coffee is not relevant to me. But I do tend to see him applying a much more objective level of rigor to his reviews than many other content creators.
I have great respect for his integrity and body of work
Also has very good books. So, totally not the average youtuber/content creator out there.
He's mentioned modding espresso machines many times in his videos, and brings it up often during reviews.
Coffee is more niche. It makes more sense for "objective credibility" to play a role there.
MKBHD is absolutely as qualified as 99% of his peers.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/@LanceHedrick/videos
I would say his success is largely due to being among the first to the market in tech reviews and having (at the time) better production quality.
Also for $700 you don't want to be the guinea pig.
Also you can totally work while the pot is getting to temperature.
I preheat the moka with hot water and fill it with hot water from jug to reduce time to brew (necessary due to stove setup).
Without actually fully heating the coffee for your and having a tank, etc, I don’t see a huge advantage here over those types of machines.
A more comparable model from Flair would be either the Pro 3 ($325, all metal in the grouphead, pressure gauge, shot mirror... lots of included accessories) or the cheaper models they offer (Classic w/ pressure gauge, $230, Neo Flex, $99).
If you wanted to compare to the Cafelat Robot, that is also only $450... and is all metal, built like a tank, and has a very charming aesthetic.
In the category of "machines that don't froth milk", it might be the most expensive by $50.
In the category of "machines that have pressure control", it might be the cheapest by $700
In the category of "machines that have a rotary pump", it might be the cheapest by $2000.
It's sort of the curse of making something that doesn't clearly fit into a specific category.
51mm portafilters are better and some day the world will come to understand
https://youtu.be/jTAkb-dCFro?si=QQ6K9l99xqOCQl5S
Given the author has given us essentially nothing regarding what is actually controllable (besides pressure control?), it's unclear to me what you even can do with it. A simple pressure control is pretty basic and not at all comparable to the Meticulous or a DE1.
- Group preheat (so it has some kind of heater) - "Fully adjustable power" - ???
It does seem that the water tube either goes to a kettle and the pump is in the machine, or it goes to a pump, that you then need to attach to a machine, and that clear line is pressurized.
It does potentially have one feature the met doesn't (hinted at by allowing for filter brews): it'll be able to use up the entire water source, not a small amount of water you pour into the machine (similar to the Decent).
Edit: based on the manual just added, it seems like the pump is in the machine.
I'm really, really not seeing what could possibly justify this price. If the 'control' is just as simple as an analog knob, then this is no different than adding 'flow control' via a common dimmer switch to any other pump. I've done this modification on vibratory pump models myself, and they function just fine when dimer switch modded.
The pump absolutely is a "big deal" though if they can deliver on it. It has been attempted (Decent is trying to make one - actually they have been trying for years) and no one has delivered on a pump like that to date.
* No heating control
* No tank/water storage
* No milk frothing capability
The obvious comparison is a manual (lever) espresso machine that does not offer its own heating capability. It offers pressure control (via your arm) just fine.
Also, besides noise complaints and possibly some questionable reasoning involving vibe pump longevity, I have yet to see a compelling reason a rotary pump is better. They're 'nicer' and offered in higher end stuff, but performance wise a very good vibe pump seems just fine. Flow rates are more than adequate for pretty much any normal brewing method.
Regarding 51mm vs 58mm: you might be correct technically, but the ecosystem around accessories is firmly in the 58mm camp. As far as I can tell, the difference is so marginal it doesn't really matter anyways. Puck prep and other things will matter more for the average user.
Seeing the full setup as envisioned would be nice. With the machine, kettle and grinder, all plugged in, and with all the accessories. This is an unusual machine, looking at the pictures, I have no idea how making my morning coffee with it would be like.
Any paid template from any of the big website building companies would be better than what you have at the moment.
Also, photography-wise, as a lot of other people have suggested here, take a few steps back. Just show the whole product on a worktop, without videos. You're not Apple; it’s not iconic yet. A close-up won’t suffice. We need to see the whole thing static, not in a close-up video all the time. (The reason you’ve done this is that you’re very familiar with the design. Visitors are not—you’ve forgotten what it’s like to see it for the first time.)
I hope this comes across in the way it’s intended. The device is gorgeous; it should be treated with the respect of a good website.
I hope this provides some context: what I mean is "poorly designed" in the context of the product, which is in the second half of the sentence you omitted. There’s a mismatch between the product quality and the website quality. You’re right—it’s a 5 or 6 out of 10 website. Not a bad score at all, certainly not poor. I would enjoy and not comment on most other content using this design style. However, a 10/10 product (let’s assume it is) should not have a website that looks like this. It damages the brand. And that, I think, justifies calling it poor. (But what’s the worst that could happen? Fewer sales? It’s fine, really.)
Also, I think anybody whose contribution is, "Oh, knock it off," doesn't have a lot of room to complain about somebody bringing the tone down.
I agree with idk1; however pretty this page is, it's terribly designed as a product page. I am less likely to buy the product after seeing the page than before. And reading through the comments, that's true for many people. Is it pretty? Yes. But a pretty thing that harms your purpose is worse designed than an ugly thing that serves it.
Maybe part of the problem. I suspect that is not the whole reason. I think they are not happy (consciously or unconsciously) with the appearance of the pump and/or don't consider it part of the product. And that is why they are excluding it from the images. Sometimes literally photoshopping it out.
https://velofuso.com/store/p/gear-pump-upgrade-kit
In that case I agree that a video where one makes coffee with it would be useful. That would have disabused me of my confusion immediately.
Also, related - set up a mailing list and add a subscription link at the bottom of every page. I bet people that are interested but hesitant would love to get a ping when you add more info to the website.
This is a Squarespace site. See: the favicon.
Edit: Misread cylindrical as conical
Niche made the single dose grinder mainstream though and deserve a ton of credit for that
I am into mechanical keyboards and IEMs and that feels outrageous to me. I'll spend $40 on a pen, but that price point feels insane to me.
Maybe I just like my garbo Aldi's whole bean coffee with cream & sugar, so I am not your target market... I hope you find your niche - I am sure it is out there if you went this far. But man.. I couldnt ever spend that much on the tools to make coffee.
So for a self made, low production run of quality components, this is not bad.
[1] https://www.lamarzocco.com/ch/de/produkt/leva-x-1-group/
[2] https://weberworkshops.com/products/eg-1
Coffee enthusiasts are borderline insane, maybe something with the involved molecules.
The thing is the expectations for these machines are sky-high. They're built like tanks, last forever, are servicable, and generally very high quality.
It's not so much that I can make better espresso, but it's far easier, quicker, and more consistent to make not-totally crap tasting espresso.
regarding the machine,
- can you confirm if the pump can be adjusted during the shot (profiling)?
- can the shot be programmed too, or just manual?
regarding the grinder,
- can you explain a bit how the "knocker" works when you twist the hopper?
- I guess that the burr is unimodal, do you have more details about distribution or flavor profile?