Thanks, very interesting read about PDI and the cultural differences.
Speaking for myself, I have great interest in living / working in western Europe, namely Netherlands or Denmark, but as someone living in Japan for a decade and appreciating their polite communication and respect for personal boundary, I'm concerned if I would enjoy life in an environment with more straightforward communication.
It’s not as straight forward as people like to frame it as. There are still impolite and too direct ways of communicating and there are tons of stuff that still needs to be wrapped in blankets and delivered carefully.
{
"id": 1,
"question": "You are overcomplicating this",
"answer": "Being mindful of timelines. Let’s concentrate on the initial scope.",
"alternativeAnswers": []
},
{
"id": 2,
"question": "That meeting sounds like a waste of my time",
"answer": "I’m unable to add value to this meeting but I would be happy to review the minutes.",
"alternativeAnswers": []
},
That may be, but the linked page gives no indication as such so for somebody (a non-native English speaker for example) genuinely looking for advice on tactful communication between co-workers - this might be doing more harm than good.
Also if this is indeed satire, it's so subtle as to be functionally nonexistent.
Original:
Stop assigning me so many tasks if you want any of them to get done
Alternative:
As my workload is quite heavy, can you help me understand what I should reprioritize to accommodate this new task?
The cynic in me says that this started out as an earnest endeavor but the feedback was so brutal that the author backpedaled and "pivoted" the product with a rebranding as satire.
How exactly is it satirical? That particular example is actually a pretty normal way to express to a manager that their current load is relatively high but if there was a way to re-prioritize certain tasks then they could possibly get it done.
Satire is generally incisive in some way and uses constructs like exaggeration, irony, etc. in a humorous take.
Here's a few more:
Original: Stop calling me before my workday even starts
Alternative: If you need to contact me, please note that my working hours being at 8 am and 6 pm. Communications received prior to this won’t be seen.
Original: How much does this role pay?
Alternative: Can you share what the overall compensation looks like for this role?
Sorry but if this is satire then it's the dry-wit equivalent of the cinnamon challenge.
Without wishing to cause offence..... Americans are rather well known for an inability to spot the satire and sarcasm that pervades our conversation here in Blighty.
Ah yes, my bad, I should also have mentioned the website link in the project README file as well, just added a "View the website" link in the readme, hope that helps others as well. Thanks for sharing about this.
If you’re working with me, please don’t follow this article’s advice. Please communicate with me with direct language and with a goal to advance our project.
If I have a terrible idea, or am over complicating things, just tell me. And tell me why, and maybe I’ll see it your way, or maybe I’ll convince you the complexity is essential, but we’ll be better for it either way.
Those who default to corporate speak are those who have no power to speak plainly. Sometimes they have no power because they cannot be trusted. But more often it's because whoever they report to cannot be trusted, and maybe also they don't trust whoever they are speaking to.
And to drill down into this a little further, the process of building trust is one where you each show the other person that the longer term relationship (personal or professional) is more important than any short term gains you might get by using their plain speaking against them. It is harder to do with a power imbalance, because one person isn't risking as much as the other.
Totally agree with you on this, it was meant to be satirical but I started to realize that there are many places and people to which these type of conversation is really the only medium to communicate, its sad and in an ideal world I would want that people communicate directly without the need of twisting the words, but I am happy that you advocate and appreciate direction communication over something like this.
Is that some kind of logical argument? You can do that for anything and there is 0 utility.
The point is that little kids experience all kind of much nastier "non-professionall behavior" in school, yet when we say to adult "fuck you" all hell breaks loose. Pathetic.
I am fine with that, call me jerk or rude. I don't care how people perceive me, even when they are not random folks like you.
I care about the job being done correctly, efficiently. I care about the users. I don't care about poor IT developers, who have the worst life can offer (sarcasm). Get some perspective, man!
If you can't take "fuck you" or equivalent while passionately doing something, just move away, let the grown-ups do the thing, don't make this thing about you, your feelings or your morning sugar.
It's this type of prima dona type of engineer that I try to avoid at all cost.
The phrases here are for use specifically when people aren't being nice or kind. If someone is being rude to me, the words they use shouldn't be excessively harsh, but I don't want the language being used to increase the risk of my misinterpreting what is really being said.
If you can trust that someone will be direct with you whenever you're annoying them, it means that you don't have to spend time/effort trying to divine some hidden or subtle meaning in every normal/non-confrontational communication they send your way.
I'm like this too, and was on a team with another fella like this for a few years. It was great, our other team members thought we absolutely hated each other and didn't understand why we hung out every Friday after work to play board games. It's certainly not a common attitude in the workplace though.
Even when I do that on HN, it’s usually unappreciated. I doubt that anyone would risk their job in that cool “what I really mean” society you built there.
Eh. My experience is that 99% of people who tell me to be direct eventually get offended because I'm too direct. I've noticed that Americans claim to be laid-back and casual, but in reality they're very formal, it's just that they're not posh. Fortunately, I've developed the skill to communicate both efficiently and professionally, I'm the master of practical corpo speech that gets shit done, but it's so radically different from my natural way of speaking that nobody who only knows me privately believes that I'm even capable of taking part in a work meeting without causing a scandal.
Not exactly. You can use each one alone in this context, but they don't quite mean the same thing.
"As predicted" means something like "In the way that was predicted".
"Per my prediction" means "According to my prediction".
As you noted, the combination doesn't really make sense: "In the way that according to". But it's an idiom. People say it just because they've heard others say it.
The Merriam Webster definition for "per" (sense 3) says "according to — often used with as". Like many idioms, it doesn't necessarily make sense if you break it down.
I'm canadian and we (i assume) have a similar culture as the americans.
These don't feel professional, they feel like a satire of professional-speak. Like they use all the sterotypical words but they dont sound like things someone would actually say. Unless you are pissed at someone and are trying to tell someone to "fuck off" without getting fired. Which i guess is the point of the site, but not how professional communication works.
I honestly thought you were making that one up, but it's in there.
"As per my prediction, this outcome does not come as a surprise."
I don't know if there needs to be a "country flag" next to each suggestion or something, because no native English speaker from the United States would ever recommend responding like this. There is simply no possible means of delivery in which this line does not come across as incredibly smug and condescending.
I've lived in the western US all my life, and worked for many companies large and small.
In my entire life, I have never heard a native speaker of American English talk or write like that, either in a business or personal context.
They do sound like stereotypical Indian business English. No offense to my friends and colleagues from India! It may just be what Americans imagine Indian English sounds like.
Based on some other comments in this thread I think it was originally intended to be satirical but is evolving away from that. Which makes it a bit tricky.
"As per my prediction, this outcome does not come as a surprise." Sounds dickish to this American as well. I think there’s no polite way to say “I told you so.” Maybe something along the lines of “yeah, well, that’s about what we expected, but it was a nice try” could work? It still isn’t great but at least it puts you together on the losing team.
Tbh I don't think the worst problem here is with stating something is overcomplicated but the directness and variously pointed use of 'you'. People will naturally be more defensive.
Many of the example statements involve this use of 'you' in the same fashion. 'Did you even read my email?', 'If you would have read the whole email you’d know the answer to this'. It's a deliberate use of 'you' like an intensifier.
With minor rephrasing these could just be expressed more passively, for scenarios where one doesn't want an almost completely euphemistic tone.
Right, just say "I don't think we need that complexity." Explain why (if you can't, ask what you are missing, maybe there is something you don't understand about the requirement). That is straightforward and not phrasing it as a "you" problem.
You nailed it. (Using "you" in a positive way here, of course.)
Regarding 'Did you even read my email?', the HN guidelines talk about almost this exact phrase:
> Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that".
The other problem with "You are overcomplicating this" is the underlying confidence of the speaker that they know more about the problem domain than the addressee. Not infrequently, the addressee has engaged with the problem longer and thus is aware of complications that need to be addressed. It's the situation described in the xkcd "Physicists" episode: https://www.xkcd.com/793/
My preference is to restate this as a question: "Is there any reason why we can't just do <X>?". Sometimes the response I got was: "Hmm, you're right, that had not occurred to me", sometimes it was "Yes, we need to handle <Y> and <Z>".
and if you want to know the reason - I work in small engineering teams, clear communication is paramount. Being indirect or beating around the bush wastes time, leads to misunderstandings, and erodes trust. We need to be direct and concise to ensure everyone's on the same page and projects stay on track - respectfully of course :)
I’ve seen new people come in to my organization and speak this way. It was amazing how they could so easily lose all credibility within four hours and they were toast at that point.
In my experience the best people to join new teams are the ones who take the time to not state anything for a couple of weeks. Join the meetings, take notes, ask questions, but refrain from stating things. Only after they have a good picture they can start contributing. I like those people.
Lurk, be an observer, figure out the unwritten rules and power hierarchy, who's in and who's out, don't commit yourself to any cause or person or stance, don't accidentally get sucked into other people's conflicts.
The maxim of office happiness is "strong relationship > any problem." If you find yourself constantly couching your language like this with someone, it is an "organization smell" that you need to gain more familiarity with that person! Once you have established rapport, and you both feel free to express yourself a little roughly at times, you spend less time reflecting on your communication and more time exchanging the information needed to build.
If you find yourself having to talk like this all the time at work I recommend reading "An Elegant Puzzle" by Will Larson.
That’s nice to say but there’s a dark underbelly of quietly firing people who don’t quite fit the team culture to achieve such strong relationships. Not always and not immediately, but eventually you either have a black sheep slowly bring your team down or you fire them.
Basically the office equivalent of the plot to Hot Fuzz.
True for your immediate team, but if you work at a giant company where people from all over the world can send you messages and emails and meeting invites, you are always going to have to deal with people who you haven't gotten to know well and maybe have never even met!
Although some responses might seem generic or even robotic, sometimes we need to communicate that way. I'm not a fan of this style, but as a developer, I need to use it when talking to people from other departments.
It doesn't really fit in with the format, but often the best way to "say" many of these things is simply to say nothing (quickly). Especially for the ones about demanding your time and attention inappropriately, you are usually not the only person they have asynchronously contacted as they continue trying to solve their problems.
The part where "you get angry with me" for being honest hurts me. So how does that fit into the equation? Am I meant to be hurt for doing what you wanted?
Perhaps a better approach would be to skip the "anger" bit and perhaps fast-forward to the "respect" bit. If that's not possible, then don't be surprised when people stop being honest with you. And most certainly don't complain about it.
It's not just professionalism. It's the challenge of removing irritation from one's communications because that generally doesn't get the best cooperation.
As a satire, it does look amusing: the "professional" versions are about as rude as "unprofessional" ones, but the wording in those makes it more annoying (and perhaps condescending), "adding insult to injury". Perhaps one could also slap random emojis onto those, like in its README's headings, and follow with over the top valedictions, to push it even further.
> the "professional" versions are about as rude as "unprofessional" ones, but the wording in those makes it more annoying
That's exactly what I thought. These "professional" responses are hilariously passive-aggressive. Hats off to the author! I just have the fear that some people will use these unironically...
102 comments
[ 4.4 ms ] story [ 88.0 ms ] threadSpeaking for myself, I have great interest in living / working in western Europe, namely Netherlands or Denmark, but as someone living in Japan for a decade and appreciating their polite communication and respect for personal boundary, I'm concerned if I would enjoy life in an environment with more straightforward communication.
Also if this is indeed satire, it's so subtle as to be functionally nonexistent.
Original: Stop assigning me so many tasks if you want any of them to get done
Alternative: As my workload is quite heavy, can you help me understand what I should reprioritize to accommodate this new task?
The cynic in me says that this started out as an earnest endeavor but the feedback was so brutal that the author backpedaled and "pivoted" the product with a rebranding as satire.
Satire is generally incisive in some way and uses constructs like exaggeration, irony, etc. in a humorous take.
Here's a few more:
Original: Stop calling me before my workday even starts
Alternative: If you need to contact me, please note that my working hours being at 8 am and 6 pm. Communications received prior to this won’t be seen.
Original: How much does this role pay?
Alternative: Can you share what the overall compensation looks like for this role?
Sorry but if this is satire then it's the dry-wit equivalent of the cinnamon challenge.
Without wishing to cause offence..... Americans are rather well known for an inability to spot the satire and sarcasm that pervades our conversation here in Blighty.
PS: here's the direct link to the website: https://howtoprofessionallysay.akashrajpurohit.com/
If I have a terrible idea, or am over complicating things, just tell me. And tell me why, and maybe I’ll see it your way, or maybe I’ll convince you the complexity is essential, but we’ll be better for it either way.
In the absence of trust, one often needs to resort to passive, blameless, less direct language.
So I work on creating the trust and noting where it is impossible so I can adjust.
Who defaults to corporate speak is often an indication to how much they can be trusted.
Those who default to corporate speak are those who have no power to speak plainly. Sometimes they have no power because they cannot be trusted. But more often it's because whoever they report to cannot be trusted, and maybe also they don't trust whoever they are speaking to.
And to drill down into this a little further, the process of building trust is one where you each show the other person that the longer term relationship (personal or professional) is more important than any short term gains you might get by using their plain speaking against them. It is harder to do with a power imbalance, because one person isn't risking as much as the other.
The point is that little kids experience all kind of much nastier "non-professionall behavior" in school, yet when we say to adult "fuck you" all hell breaks loose. Pathetic.
Not everything in life is about utility, some people want to just feel nice and don’t deal with your negative energy and that is completely fine.
At work, it's about utility, not about being nice, looking good, making jokes.
At your home, you can feel nice and demand of others to do so.
> At work, it's about utility, not about being nice, looking good, making jokes.
At best your message sounds rude, at worst you sound like a jerk. And I say that as someone who used to think like you.
I care about the job being done correctly, efficiently. I care about the users. I don't care about poor IT developers, who have the worst life can offer (sarcasm). Get some perspective, man!
If you can't take "fuck you" or equivalent while passionately doing something, just move away, let the grown-ups do the thing, don't make this thing about you, your feelings or your morning sugar.
It's this type of prima dona type of engineer that I try to avoid at all cost.
If you can trust that someone will be direct with you whenever you're annoying them, it means that you don't have to spend time/effort trying to divine some hidden or subtle meaning in every normal/non-confrontational communication they send your way.
A lot of the suggestions on "How to professionally say" are not only more polite, but also more helpful than the original knee-jerk reply.
"This is not my problem" -> "I recommend directing this issue to <Name> as they have the proper expertise to best assist you"
"As per my prediction, this outcome does not come as a surprise."
Might as well say "go fuck yourself, eat shit, I was right"
Not exactly. You can use each one alone in this context, but they don't quite mean the same thing.
"As predicted" means something like "In the way that was predicted".
"Per my prediction" means "According to my prediction".
As you noted, the combination doesn't really make sense: "In the way that according to". But it's an idiom. People say it just because they've heard others say it.
The Merriam Webster definition for "per" (sense 3) says "according to — often used with as". Like many idioms, it doesn't necessarily make sense if you break it down.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/per
That said this is satire, and saying it twice does make the joke better.
These don't feel professional, they feel like a satire of professional-speak. Like they use all the sterotypical words but they dont sound like things someone would actually say. Unless you are pissed at someone and are trying to tell someone to "fuck off" without getting fired. Which i guess is the point of the site, but not how professional communication works.
"As per my prediction, this outcome does not come as a surprise."
I don't know if there needs to be a "country flag" next to each suggestion or something, because no native English speaker from the United States would ever recommend responding like this. There is simply no possible means of delivery in which this line does not come across as incredibly smug and condescending.
I've lived in the western US all my life, and worked for many companies large and small.
In my entire life, I have never heard a native speaker of American English talk or write like that, either in a business or personal context.
They do sound like stereotypical Indian business English. No offense to my friends and colleagues from India! It may just be what Americans imagine Indian English sounds like.
"As per my prediction, this outcome does not come as a surprise." Sounds dickish to this American as well. I think there’s no polite way to say “I told you so.” Maybe something along the lines of “yeah, well, that’s about what we expected, but it was a nice try” could work? It still isn’t great but at least it puts you together on the losing team.
But this tends to happen between people or teams that don’t know each other.
Tbh I don't think the worst problem here is with stating something is overcomplicated but the directness and variously pointed use of 'you'. People will naturally be more defensive.
Many of the example statements involve this use of 'you' in the same fashion. 'Did you even read my email?', 'If you would have read the whole email you’d know the answer to this'. It's a deliberate use of 'you' like an intensifier.
With minor rephrasing these could just be expressed more passively, for scenarios where one doesn't want an almost completely euphemistic tone.
Regarding 'Did you even read my email?', the HN guidelines talk about almost this exact phrase:
> Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that".
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
My preference is to restate this as a question: "Is there any reason why we can't just do <X>?". Sometimes the response I got was: "Hmm, you're right, that had not occurred to me", sometimes it was "Yes, we need to handle <Y> and <Z>".
Like it or not, this is a truth.
In my experience the best people to join new teams are the ones who take the time to not state anything for a couple of weeks. Join the meetings, take notes, ask questions, but refrain from stating things. Only after they have a good picture they can start contributing. I like those people.
I really don't understand why people can't be spoken to directly, only in the workplace.
Trying to dance around people's egos is so childish.
If you find yourself having to talk like this all the time at work I recommend reading "An Elegant Puzzle" by Will Larson.
Basically the office equivalent of the plot to Hot Fuzz.
> simply to say nothing (quickly)
Love it! Say nothing quickly :) Basically don't even bother with the "I told you so" response ... is my intrepretation.
“I’d encourage everyone to read the full article …” = “did you even read the article?”
“I guess I’m the opposite” = “you’re wrong and I wish I could downvote you to hell”
I miss ngate
Perhaps a better approach would be to skip the "anger" bit and perhaps fast-forward to the "respect" bit. If that's not possible, then don't be surprised when people stop being honest with you. And most certainly don't complain about it.
It's not just professionalism. It's the challenge of removing irritation from one's communications because that generally doesn't get the best cooperation.
That's exactly what I thought. These "professional" responses are hilariously passive-aggressive. Hats off to the author! I just have the fear that some people will use these unironically...
Don’t use comments in this thread as a benchmark on what people expect from you in the office.
One wrong phrase, at a wrong time, with a wrong person can lead to quite bad consequences.