Very cool to see a new entry into the modem market. Obviously not available for anyone other than Apple, but I’m interested to see how it shapes up over time much like their SoC has done.
This has been a long time coming since Apple bought Intels modem division several years ago.
I’m also interested to see if it enables cellular in laptops. Afaik the limiting factor has been that Qualcomm charge a percentage of device rate , which would be exorbitant for a laptop. Having it be in house might allow for it now.
Why? It uses a linear zoom like a classic lens design inside and embeds an optical 2x zoom lens into a smaller area.
From the press release:
> With an integrated 2x Telephoto, users have the equivalent of two cameras in one, and can zoom in with optical quality to get closer to the subject and easily frame their shot.
This is the first time they use linear (classic zoom) design. The previous one was a 90-degree periscope design. From 16 Pro Max specifications:
> 12MP 5x Telephoto: 120 mm, ƒ/2.8 aperture and 20° field of view, 100% Focus Pixels, seven-element lens, 3D sensor-shift optical image stabilization and autofocus, tetraprism design. 5x optical zoom in, 2x optical zoom out; 10x optical zoom range
There's absolutely no reason for them to introduce a new mechanical camera system. They previously marketed their cropping of the center 12MP of their 48MP sensor as 2x optical zoom. They will use the same method here.
Strongest argument that they didn't is that adding something like that is absolutely a thing Apple would have talked about at length in the press release. They love getting to do extensive "here's something cool that 'only Apple could do'" segments. (And we love to make fun of them for it.)
It's probably the same as the 2x zoom in the iPhone 16 line. The 1x pictures are a 48MP sensor that does some pixel-combining to output a 12MP image. The 2x pictures are a crop of 12MP in the center of the sensor, that doesn't do any combining. So it's still "optical", but it's lower-quality than the 1x.
I think it's not "zooming with the sensor", but has a slim lens stack to enable optical 2x zoom. The whole system is also PDAF, so they need the movement anyway.
They did the modem because it's actually cheaper for them. They already bought the Intel division and had engineers work on it for over 5 years, so it's already sunk costs at best. Since they came up with a working design, it is FOR SURE cheaper for them to use it than to buy something from Qualcomm.
I'm a bit suspicious about this, because if it was truly great, they would have waited longer to advertise it as a must have feature for their "pro" devices.
It's sort of beta testing the thing on the lower volume product with less tech literate people who won't complain too much because of some weird connectivity issues.
If it performs, Apple is going to make even more money on the next round of iPhone, not that Apple needs any more money but you know, if that could stop them from increasing the price, that could be nice.
If it were an optical zoom then it would be able to take 24MP and 48MP shots like it can in 1x mode, but it is limited to 12MP which highly suggests its just a crop.
No, it’s literally a digital crop exactly like the other sensors that use 48MP sensors. There’s nothing magic here. I would be shocked if it’s anything different than the exact identical camera used in the base iPhone 15, quite frankly. The cheaper versions never use the latest hardware for the cameras.
Optical zoom changes significantly how out-of-focus areas looks like. For anyone doing photography (with actual cameras and actual lenses), calling crop an "optical zoom" is a lie from Apple.
If you have an actual physical zoom lens, cropping a zoomed out photo produces a different result than zooming in with the lens in the first place. Even when your camera/sensor doesn't move. It's all physics yo
> I’m also interested to see if it enables cellular in laptops
Are WWAN cards not a thing already? I've never looked much into them at all, but they do seem to exist, at least (and seem to be around $20-$50 and plug into M.2 slots)
And when laptops do have a spare M.2 slot it's usually intended for an SSD only and is not the right kind of M.2 slot for a cellular (or WiFi) card. And of course, you'd need antennas. So the whole laptop needs to be designed around accommodating cellular connectivity, with significant changes to the internal layout.
I agree that every device should have a cellular modem option. I am just annoyed that no matter how much I am willing to spend on Apple's top-end road warrior product, I cannot get an option available from Dell.
I'm probably a small minority, but I would trade my phone in for a clamshell/dumbphone tomorrow if my Macbook had 5g. Separately, tethering seems to blow through my phone battery.
I think the long term plan is for the modem to be part of the SOC. That would probably lead to even better efficiency and cost/space savings. If that happens I fully expect the modem to end up in the M series as well.
If it had a small screen that would be 110% fine. As it is, I think that no-bezel devices are easier to misclick on, but I agree that it does seem very strange on apple's part.
I have a Razr. The touchscreen surface isn't glass (there's a TPU film on top for protection), but it's a very good experience and I rarely think about it not being glass.
I agree that the tech is not at the place where it was 25 years ago, but I fiddled with plastic screen protectors on top of these kinds of screens enough. I still use screen protectors, but glass on glass is a much better experience for me.
It's a matter of choice, and I'm not judging people who like it by any means, but I'm a bit boneheaded on these things and don't change my choices that fast. For example, I still don't think OLED is suitable for TV sized screens and laptops. I know how the color and contrast is better, but I don't want to replace my TV or laptop every three years because it develops subtle burn-ins for example. I come from CRTs, and can endure a good backlit LCD a couple of more years, esp if it has color temperature adaptive backlight.
Even the SE was a little bigger than the 4S screen I really miss. Combined with the angled sides it was the last phone I could comfortably operate with one hand.
Not only on HN, everywhere around me. It has to do with country trends I guess. In France, so many people want small phones. They just cannot buy them anymore, they're not produced.
Apple should just start a preorder site for a small iPhone 17 and wait until enough are collected to make it.
(Or do what I always thought they should do and have a small iPhone and a normal sized one with identical internals, only the case, battery, and screen would be different.)
My hands are too small to comfortably use the screen. Bezel size don't matter.
How about accepting that we know what we want and that we don't need you you to lecture us on our preferences? Seriously, what's wrong with you? "Oh you complained about your preference on X, but let me educate you about your preferences are wrong?"
Yeah, have a Ubiquiti home network, and want to optimize placement of my access points (before I install mounts on the walls/ceiling) and also would like to use it to compare different APs to see if an upgrade makes sense vs installing an extra AP for the garage that doesn't get good signal.
So you want a feature in a device that you're going to use for a single purpose one time? How many times do you need to map your house once you have the map? There's gotta be a better single use device for purpose rather than having it limit your options for a non-single purpose device.
I'm applying your yes response to the final question of there's gotta be a better way than your request for an rarely used feature in a reduced feature device.
60hz is really taking the piss at this point, if they must reserve 120hz for the Pro line then the least they could do is use 90hz further down the stack.
I have a Pro that I've set to only use 60 FPS (Accessibility / Motion / Limit Frame Rate). 120 FPS is ever so slightly smoother, but I would rather have the slightly better battery life disabling it.
Among mainstream users, people just don't care and this isn't remotely the differentiator people seem to hold it as. Similar to the micro bezel fetish, these are spec-chaser points that certain manufacturers convince people are must haves. But they really aren't.
> Among mainstream users, people just don't care and this isn't remotely the differentiator people seem to hold it as.
I agree that most users don't consciously care, but I think its definitely possible that it influences how fast the phone feels and could influence purchases if you are testing them side-by-side in a store. There is some anecdotal evidence to that in the fact that Google does the extremely scummy thing of locking their non-pro Pixels to 60Hz when in demo mode regardless of the refresh rate setting chosen in the OS.
I had an iPhone 13 Pro before downgrading to the 13 Mini. One of the reasons I bought the Pro was for the higher refresh screen, and while it's obviously noticeable when using it, it's not something I've ever missed even once.
I don't think he says it's not noticeable but that it doesn't matter.
I'm in the same boat; I can notice it but it doesn't make much difference for my phone use case so it's largely irrelevant.
It really depends on what you are doing with your phone.
In my point of view, the bummer is non LTPO display, preventing going down to 1hz which can save some battery if you use your phone for reading.
Apple is the king us using old kit and marketing it as innovative. On the flip side, 26 hours of video playback on battery is crazy long, and 60Hz is a big contributor to that.
This device looks like a technology testing mule for apple, and with that price point it's guaranteed to sell boatloads.
I think being able to cram this amount of new tech (a new camera, a new modem) for a new device is good for apple. I believe this will play out well, and this tech will graduate the so-called flagships in a couple of years.
I would rather at this point have a watch with good cellular comms, that could use bluetooth for calls and let me tether a tablet for web use.
But I have to say, I was more annoyed by the loss of touch ID than by the increase in screen size. While I like the smallest possible iPhone, my SE has not been very nice to use lately. Developers aren't testing their sites/apps on that screen size, and many sites/apps are getting really janky when run on a screen that small.
However, as the iPhone 12 and 13 mini demonstrated, the people who like small phones are a very vocal but extremely small minority (only 3% of US sales were the mini). They both sold so badly, it serves as a reality check for how small voices on the internet are compared to the market.
I feel like the 12 mini was objectively a subpar device, and maybe if 13 mini had come out first (after a long hiatus of not having smaller phones), then there might have been a chance. But probably not.
You're assuming most people even read the spec sheet and knew it was inferior on paper. I assure you, most did not. Most just looked at it, decided "too small," and that's about it.
I meant the people who wanted a small phone experienced it, and were disappointed, and it gained a bad reputation, potentially turning off others who also wanted a small phone.
There was a big gap (5+ years?) between the small iPhone SE and the 12 mini, so a lot of people jumping on 12 mini and being disappointed by the small phone may have resulted in disappointing sales of 13 mini.
But I’m sure the phone sellers know what they are doing, it just would have been nice to even be able to still buy a 13 mini. None of the new phones have any capabilities I care about.
Edit to respond to below:
I am not assuming that, I am actually assuming the opposite. There may have been pent up demand due to the long gap between the small iPhone SE and 12 mini, so when the 12 mini came out and disappointed, people who had been waiting to upgrade chose a non mini reducing the total number of minis sold. And then the 13 mini was discontinued by the time those people needed a new phone.
You're assuming that people upgrade phones every year, which (again) most do not. A badly received 12 mini would have almost no broad market effect on the sales of the 13 mini. Not unless most iPhone sales are by word of mouth.
If they're going to buy a regular iPhone for $100 more anyway, and the likelihood they buy a small Android instead is near zero (what small Android?), then yes, I absolutely would say to cut it and simplify the engineering, manufacturing, and checkout process.
If you start serving every 4% of needs in each product category, watch the portfolio balloon to catastrophic proportions. The very principle of the thing is anti-Apple; they would quickly become Samsung, complete with Samsung level naming schemes and weird decision making. Next thing you know, we'll have the Apple Vacuum Cleaner, the Apple Door Lock, the Apple Ice Cream Scoop, the Apple Exterior Camera, and so on.
This slippery slope argument doesn't click for me. They obviously perceive the value of segmenting the market by device size. I'm just asking for the smaller size to be actually small.
Or maybe opportunity cost is a real thing. They have decided it isn’t worth it to pursue that niche. I think Apple believes it has addressed a lot of the small screen needs with the watch.
This is all relative. In absolute terms, the iPhone SE alone would be one of the most successful products in the world, more successful than the original iPhone back in the day.
iPhone as a category is so massive now that small percentages are still millions of people.
It's kind of sad that Apple itself has become so huge, because now the company ignores people it used to care about.
I guess a lot of people don't really have a computer or laptop anymore, their phone is their computer which they use for everything, so it makes sense to want as big a screen as possible.
For the kinds of people who frequent HN, I'd wager we all do have a computer, heck there's probably a laptop in your backpack right now, so it makes sense to have a smaller phone for 'phone stuff' and whip out your laptop to do anything more involved.
Still though, surely Apple made money from the mini, even 3% of iPhone sales is a lot of phone sales! I wish they would keep it around.
You've never heard of people complaining about how "big" phones are, and wishing for a "smaller" phone? How would you measure "big" and "smaller" other than volume?
The 2D surface area, which affects holding and pocketing, is 13% larger.
Weight also matters.
I honestly still prefer the form factor of the iPhone 3GS. (I have an old one in a drawer for comparison.) 4.8 ounces, 4.5 x 2.4 x 0.48 with a rounded back. The thickness wasn't a problem.
You can still buy a pristine 13 mini on the secondary market. The original iPhone is not a viable device today, but the 13 mini is better across every tech axis (better processor, battery life, screen, camera, ...) than the SE and is worth comparing to.
This is missing the point. I have a 3rd gen SE and am not currently in the market for a new phone. The issue is that Apple is no longer selling anything to people who want a small iPhone. Moreover, the used market will dry up eventually, and iOS support will be dropped even sooner.
Let's see... it's replacing the SE, which is no longer on Apple's website. It's more expensive than the SE, at $599 vs $429. It's a pretty substantial hardware upgrade over the SE, including something like 75% more battery life by Apple's numbers, but it's also noticeably bigger.
The price hike is the major turn off point. Even as a non Apple person I was on the verge of getting the new "SE" if it's in the price range of the old SE line up.
The market for a cheaper iphone like this has always been just buying a 4 year old phone for like $0-small few hundred from your carrier. Makes no sense for apple to push a new product in this segment when their own supply eats it. And all they really offer in the se is a new old iphone anyhow making use of old components they have spare inventory available or on order from their vendors remaining supply lines.
These types of "budget" phones that Apple does are for people who can't/won't buy the flagship (because too expensive) but wouldn't buy something second-hand either.
There are a LOT of people like that. It is not rational at all; they would rather buy something shittier for their money than get more value. My grandparents are like that.
To buy in the second-hand market you need to have some knowledge about how phones compare in the first place, even if you use a platform that minimizes the risks.
So, it's not the same market at all, and Apple is pushing their luck even more with a pricing way too high for what is essentially a 3 years old phones at best (the chip makes little difference to the typical user of these phones).
I'm not talking about second hand. I'm talking about new from the carrier old model phones. Here is the verizon page for iphone 14s they have, you can get them for 0 down 0 a month through some deal from the cell phone plan. Apple can't compete with free.
When the iphone 1 came out on AT&T it was initially sold like that and basically no one had it. Everyone still used their free full keyboard phone with unlimited texting (another american only cellphone market concept that prevented whatsapp from ever lifting off the ground here). Once they got it off that deal and had it with multiple carriers that could offer a carrier subsidized phone, then the dam broke and basically everyone had an iphone or an android phone overnight (same carrier subsidized deals available there, usually better).
A lot of people are eligible for carrier subsidized upgrades every few years as well. When I did this I could have gotten my SE2 for free from verizon from my plan. I chose to pay like $200 premium to get it with the highest storage sku.
It isn't just verizon either. Here is metropcs offering free iphone 13s for new customers:
>It is not rational at all; they would rather buy something shittier for their money than get more value. My grandparents are like that.
It's entirely rational. I bought plenty of used phones, and even repaired them myself because I couldn't afford new ones. Would not do that again.
The risk of getting scammed, or getting a phone with issues is too high. Both have happened to me in the past. It can even be dangerous if someone swapped out the battery with a cheapo fire hazard. A lot of resale prices are also simply too high to be worth it.
Now imagine your grandparents. As you said, the exact model/chip doesn't matter, any phone is good enough. What they're buying is an appliance that will last at least the warranty period (2 years, EU), but likely much longer. Basically piece of mind at a fixed price. They won't get scammed (online) or ripped off (used in a physical store) if they buy directly from Apple.
Do you know you can buy them on refurbishment platforms like Backmarket ?
They have a warranty up to one year, and any problem is resolved pretty quickly.
It’s not as cheap as trying your luck in the various 2nd hand sites but if you value safety and time it’s worth it.
It still comes out much cheaper than anything brand new.
I bought quite a lot of phones on those platforms and the only time there was an issue (faulty touch layer on a display side) it was swapped within 3 days.
It’s irrational fear really. If anything those phones are rock solide because if they survived the first few years of their lives, unless there is an event they are very likely to have a long life (no faulty part, pre-tested); the only care is battery life if that wasn’t changed during refurbishing.
But generally people who can benefit from those phone do just fine pushing the battery to the very end of its life so it doesn’t even matter that much.
A non trivial amount of those phone end up there because they are fully financed after 2 years and the owner gets a new one. Sometimes you find one year old phone that were just swapped for the newest one because their owner is rich enough that he can’t be bothered to do a battery replacement and would rather have the newest model.
Some people are rich and many don’t have that much financial responsibility, people should take advantage of that, just saying…
As someone who uses Android as the main device, I have an iPhone SE as a backup phone when travelling. It is a nice phone by itself, and allows me to access Apple services in case I need to.
When the time comes, I'll probably look for a used iPhone 14/15 instead of a new iPhone 16e. To much money for my purpose.
I dunno, the old SE wasn’t a mini by any means - this is .3 inches taller and .2 inches wider, so yes bigger but not like a different size class altogether
This is a lot bigger. IIRC the mini is smaller than the old SE, and this is bigger than the mini. It's not a "plus" sized iPhone, but that would be skipping up two size classes. It has gone from small to regular.
Easily the nicest form factor phone they ever produced. You can reach the entire screen with the thumb in one hand without awkwardly flopping the phone onto the thumb in the farthest corner. It is smaller than your wallet. The battery lasted forever because the screen was small and not that bright or nearly so pixel dense.
Too bad the management consultants killed such a technology.
There’s no conspiracy. Not enough people like small phones. Apple’s biggest spike happened once they ditched the iPhone 5 size and went to bigger phones with the iPhone 6.
I’m willing to bet it was some people in management that missed the small phones and fought to re-introduce a smaller form factor phone. They succeeded in making the best small phones ever made and rounding down approximately nobody bought them. Blame the general public for killing the form factor.
Apple sells how few Mac Pros a year and still sells them? They could ship another couple skus. One of the largest tech companies on the face of the earth and you are telling me they can't ship a cellphone.
I kinda want the 1st-gen 4" SE screen on a bezel-less modern phone. That'd really fit nicely in a pocket. Would modern apps and modern websites be usable on it?... not really, but maybe I don't need them anyway.
The SE had a pretty huge bezel though. That's an annoying feature of it, but at the same time it means that the screen was actually much smaller than the 16e's screen, and therefore (depending on how you hold it) easier to use one handed, which is what most people who want a small phone are looking for.
And the OG SE was significantly cheaper, even after adjusting for inflation. But it only received 6.5 years of regular iOS updates. It was released mid-cycle with iOS 9, and iOS 15 is the last supported version. You may be counting the later security updates, but that doesn’t help with app compatibility.
Is this a replacement for the "SE" line? It seems similar to the previous SE models in that it's cheaper, uses an older body, and is released in an off month. The marketing copy in the OP also compares it to the older SE phones.
I am guessing that's the end of the small phone line at Apple.
I have been keeping my 12 Mini in as pristine condition as possible. I often keep the phone in my vest pocket and really hate the size of … well … anything larger than the Mini. Best form factor ever for me.
It wouldn't be crazy for them to offer a mini only every several generations. If the problem is that there isn't enough demand to justify design and tooling, it would make sense to let demand grow for 5-6 years, then release a new mini that all small phone lovers will buy.
Yup, Apple still makes a new iPad mini every 3-4 years, despite it being clearly worse on paper than the mainline iPad. But the last version was mostly a spec bump.
It’s funny that the marketing for this is about introducing a new member of the family. But it doesn’t also mention that one other member has been disowned/excommunicated
From a marketing perspective, it's probably ancient history. They've had three rounds of iPhone launches between now and the launch of the 13 mini, and the 13 mini was discontinued a year and a half ago. Even if the 16e had been a mini-sized phone (or available in this size and a mini size), it would have been weird for marketing to highlight that market segment and draw attention to that 1.5-year absence.
Yes, this replaces the SE which was not really that small. The SE screen was small but the case not so small. This 16e is less that 0.25 inches bigger in the diagonal.
The C1 is (fingers crossed) probably going to be a big improvement on the security front, since historically, cellular modems have been chock full of remotely exploitable security flaws.
That said, if this is their "first gen" then there could be teething issues.
That is really interesting to me. I admittedly haven't played with it in a while but on previous Android phones I've had basically any patch of skin would register and work okay with the sensor. I know because I used to rock climb a lot which tears up fingerprints so I would register things like the backside of my index finger so I could unlock the phone while it sits on a table. It was definitely finickier than a proper fingerprint but preferable to retraining it every couple of days.
Very unlikely. Also, the Touch ID in the iPad Air (and iPad mini) doesn’t work quite as well as the round Touch ID sensors on the Home buttons, due to the narrower shape and the placement. As a power button it’s also a bit clunky.
Nothing like grabbing your phone by the button in your pocket and having it unlocked and open before you even lay eyes on it. As fast as they advertise faceid being it will never beat the fact you can engage touchid as soon as you lay a finger on the phone.
> Nothing like grabbing your phone by the button in your pocket and having it unlocked and open before you even lay eyes on it.
It's the perfect way to accidentally all of the things.
Accidentally open an app. Now you have to wait for it to load, and waste your network data and battery, before you can do what you really wanted to do.
Accidentally read that message, and also accidentally swipe it away while you fumble with your phone. You didn't want to see that message anyway.
Accidentally add that person to your contact groups. Yup, you added your boss to the conversation with your wife. Nobody will mind!
Accidentally read an email, and clicked on that phishing link. Cool beans, security relies on 2FA anyway, right? It's not like it could open an app and automagically read the SMS code, right?
Accidentally start playing video. Yes that video. In the conference room. It's nice that everyone has a great sense of humor!
even better when you are app developer or your phone is just laying down on table - it was nice when you didn't have to pick it up to unlock it and put it down.
Why are small phones not economical for major flagship phone developers? Obviously more expensive phones generate more revenue, but the reduced bill of materials on smaller phones should allow a better profit margin?
Mostly I just want a phone that is comfortable in my hands.
Apple tried with the iPhone 12 mini, and the iPhone 13 mini. They were only 5% of phones sold globally, and only 3% of phones sold in the US.
The desire for small phones is an internet thing, but not backed by the market. Take it as a reality check for how internet opinions can be mostly irrelevant.
At the scale of Apple, is a specific device configuration that 'only' meets the needs of 3% of their market economically unviable? Did they build a whole special factory just for the slightly smaller device?
Not a whole factory but whole other tooling, so yes? The chassis is different, the screen is different, the mainboard is different, the layout is different, the battery is different, I think the camera was also different. Only thing shared between the other models was the buttons and the lightning port.
It's a huge cost for something that sold (relatively) poorly.
Exactly. But Apple has so many low hanging fruits that anything that doesn't make billions is irrelevant to them.
Apple is making way too much money for the good of their customers. If only people would stop mindlessly buying, they would eventually listen but their userbase has become so huge that they are not going to change anytime soon.
Nobody buys Apple products anymore because they’re too popular? Or maybe they’d be more popular if people bought fewer devices? I can’t make any sense out of what you’re saying.
What if, and I know this is a crazy thought but what if people aren’t buying Apple products mindlessly? What if they buy them because they like them? Maybe they’d didn’t buy the mini phones because they didn’t like them.
I didn't say any of the weird questions/statement you try to pin me for.
Maybe it doesn't make sense to you because you are confused?
Then again, you are confused, I never said they were buying mindlessly. They buy it because they are popular and confer status. This is why the vast majority of people buy them, not a well-reasoned and careful choice attained by proper comparison and knowledge after reviewing options.
It's not good for people who view those things as tools, because price increase and focus on the historical target group diminish tremendously.
It's not something that is exclusive to Apple but it's particularly painful because of the quirks of computing (having software linked to a particular hardware platform).
And yes, they didn't buy the Mini phone because they didn't like them. It confers less status and is not as good as a social media machine, so of course.
But by this logic McDonalds must be good because of how many people like them and somehow that's a desirable and valuable outcome.
More skus is really really expensive quite often. You can end up with a low run product that is even more expensive than a 'premium' larger/nicer product.
But it’s better to sell phones with better margin. More people need to take Econ 101. Opportunity cost is an actual thing. You can be sure they did the math. Selling ever so slightly fewer larger phones at higher margin is better than selling slightly more phones at a lower margin.
Apple knows its sales and profits much better than anyone else.
3% can be "small" in the sense of operationally-insignificant/low-ROI, even at Apple's scale, when you consider that they only have a handful of models (currently five) shipping simultaneously.
Figure most of those 3% would buy a different iPhone model if their preference was not available (not Android, because even if brand loyalty / ecosystem lock-in wasn't so powerful, the Android small-phone options are not competitive).
Then figure that 0.5% (generously!) of lost revenue has to pay for all the custom tooling, parts, manufacturing lines, etc.
... and it all makes an infernal kind of sense.
I'm still anachronistically appreciating my iPhone SE (Gen 1) with a 4" IPS display, Touch ID, Lightning connector, and a 3.5mm audio jack. It's great!
Except that I'll need to upgrade from iOS 15 at some point. :)
> The desire for small phones is an internet thing, but not backed by the market. Take it as a reality check for how internet opinions can be mostly irrelevant.
People have said this for years, but the mini phones were never going to be instant day-one hits. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy to launch them during Covid, offer them 2 years, and say no one wants them.
Give them a permanent place in the lineup, treating phones like every other very personal device meant for humans. Small, medium, and large.
If you do that, and give people time to see exactly why 5.42 screens are superior to 6.1"+ sizes, then I think the numbers will start to change from what we saw with the iPhone 12 mini and iPhone 13 mini that were launched when people were less on the go than in 100 years.
And no, I don't think a mini SKU can ever beat out the "cheap and big" midrange device that the average person is going to go for. Those will never be beat because they have perceived value. But I would bet in time it comes close or beats the "big and expensive" iPhone Pro Max option.
> but the reduced bill of materials on smaller phones should allow a better profit margin?
Is there a significantly reduced bill of materials? At best, the correlation between size and cost is very small. Most of the costs are in software, manufacturing, etc, not in materials.
Also, would there be a better profit margin? I bet customers won’t want to pay the same for a smaller phone, certainly not give that it will have lower battery life (power usage will, at best, go up with screen area, and battery volume will go up faster than phone volume because parts such as CPUs will not be smaller in smaller phones)
Probably because those of us who enjoy a lively discourse are tired of people trying to score some cheap karma with a thoughtless deployment of "slop" or "enshittification".
Understood. Here’s a more refined and articulate version:
"Can you provide this without the characteristic vagueness and padding of AI-generated text? I’d prefer something more precise, substantive, and thoughtfully constructed."
This keeps the directness while adding depth and clarity. Let me know if you'd like it even sharper.
Funny, I'm actually considering buying this specifically because it comes with Apple Intelligence, and I'm someone who usually avoids AI slop. I guess I just like Apple's particular flavor of AI slop since I use it with the mail and iMessage apps on my Mac all the time.
In the past, Qualcomm was infamous for high licensing fees.
However, part of the process of creating an open industry standard like 4G/5G is getting a legally binding commitment from the patent holders to license standards essential patents to all takers on "reasonable" terms.
> If the patent holder refuses upon request to license a patent that has become essential to a standard, then the standard-setting organization must exclude that technology.
I imagine the 2G network they are talking about is GSM, which is a 2G open standard created in the EU and used internationally.
> It was first implemented in Finland in December 1991. By the mid-2010s, it became a global standard for mobile communications achieving over 90% market share, and operating in over 193 countries and territories.
I'm interested to see how these perform at the edge of reception, which still is a massive drain. Before I had an iPhone with satellite reception, turning on airplane mode when hiking was essential for battery life.
My current iPhone (and I had to check which one I have...) actually is much more sticky to satellite. It wont switch back to cellular immediately.
Actually I like "hmf" despite my usual distaste for the dilution of "ph" to "f". The "ph" in "hmph" seems incidental, so it does not trigger me, I guess!
There is a highway sign somewhere on I-95 for "Fenix Ave", which took me a while to realize was a vicious act committed by illiterates against "Phoenix Avenue".
Apparently the camera is "2 in 1" that does 2x zoom with "optical quality" but they never actually say it's true optical zoom. I'm guessing that it's just digital zoom with some fancy processing. Does anyone know for sure?
Nice pun though. It's because when the camera is set to record 24 or 12mp photos at default zoom, then you can crop the 48mp sensor and still get the same resolution.
To be fair to the above poster, normally "digital zoom" implies that your standard (un-zoomed) image is at the native sensor resolution, and the zoomed image has reduced resolution because of the crop.
Presumably the standard image on the 16e converts the 48 MP sensor into a 12 MP image with less noise because they bin 4 sensor pixels into 1 pixel in the image file. So a 12 MP crop on the 48 MP sensor would result in a zoomed image with the same 12 MP resolution as the standard image. A major drawback would be higher image noise, but nobody will see a reduction in image pixels. At the end of the day it's probably somewhere between true optical zoom and a 12 MP native sensor with a crop.
It's probably the same as the 2x zoom in the iPhone 16 line. The 1x pictures are a 48MP sensor that does some pixel-combining to output a 12MP image. The 2x pictures are a crop of 12MP in the center of the sensor, that doesn't do any combining. So it's still "optical", but it's lower-quality.
It seems that this will cannibalize iPhone 16 sales - it's $200 cheaper, same form factor and internals, with the only difference being the camera, which if you care about you go for the Pro model. However, the price makes for a much more appealing upgrade for anyone who has an older iPhone
Indeed, this is the most notable aspect about this launch from a technology perspective. Apple's been working toward eliminating their Qualcomm dependency for nearly as long as the iPhone has existed.
Or MacBooks not having touch screens, or iPads being unable to run macOS / macOS apps even if you buy the $350 keyboard that gives it the same exact inputs as a MacBook, or iPads with modems being unable to place calls.
There's all sorts of limitations that seem less like thoughtful design and more like holding back the devices just that bit to make you want another device. You can't just want an iPad Pro, how will you run desktop apps? You can't just want an iPad Mini, how will you call people?
Well, at least the iPads can function as calculators now.
It's funny how iPads are marketed as laptop replacements, but everyone with an iPad has a laptop too. Especially the Apple fans who tell you it's a laptop replacement.
Now that Mac Mini is smaller, it's almost viable as iPad sidecar to run MacOS and Linux VMs. The ultimate dongle, with "I should be a hypervisor" graffiti.
Pixel Tablet with GrapheneOS has less limitations and will soon have Linux VMs, but lacks a keyboard travel case, and has been discontinued.
Can also emulate a PC in WASM to run Linux with a huge performance hit.
But I'm not even talking about Linux stuff, just basic use cases. Like a website somehow doesn't work with the iPad/iPhone, even if you forcibly request the desktop version. (YouTube creator studio live streaming is one example, or random airliners' in-flight video sites.) You need to unzip, manipulate, re-zip, and email something. Putting stuff on a USB stick for a print shop. Doing taxes. Running some Mac/Windows-only software.
> Now that Mac Mini is smaller, it's almost viable as iPad sidecar
How I wish Apple would work to make this better than the current state. Currently it's very ugly (bad scaling, weird res, weird bars around screen), high latency, needs some configuration...
Just let me plug in a cable and it should immediately become a display. (with video over DP?)
It was adequate for CLI/terminal/console usage, i.e. there was no issue between iPad and the capture card, any limitations were intrinsic to the card itself and would be the same on a PC laptop with Windows/Linux.
Non-Pro iPads are limited to USB2 speeds. Capturing 4K content for display on iPad would need a Pro device with USB3/Thunderbolt USB-c input.
Maybe it's my eyes, but I really like having a high res display for terminal or anything else where I'm reading a lot of text. It can be low framerate or high input delay, though.
I bought a 16 Pro after the camera on my previous iPhone stopped working. Despite being a camera-led purchase - and I do care about the camera on my phone - I would have bought this 16e in a heartbeat over the Pro.
There should never have been a "Pro" line in the first place.
It's all about creating desire through marketing to make people spend more on the ladder.
The iPhone 4 had stainless steel frame, yet they made a big deal of it with the X and subsequent "Pro" generation when it was a standard "feature" that set them appart for success in the first place.
It's crazy how much bullshit Apple have been selling since their financiarisation.
>, with the only difference being the camera, which if you care about you go for the Pro model.
Some people may care a little extra for an ultrawide lens and spending more for the cheaper iPhone 16 with 2 lenses of regular + ultrawide is enough for that. Don't have to get the more expensive Pro model.
The Pro model adds a 3rd lens for optical "true" telephoto instead of digitized "fake" telephoto and increases the resolution on the ultrawide.
It's also not clear from from the Apple press release if the 16e has a macro mode. The regular iPhone 16 (not Pro) has macro.
Try it in the store. If it's anything like my 12 mini, the wide angle lens creates too much distortion to use for portraits. Occasionally I use it for landscape photos, but I wouldn't miss it much.
You can record videos for later playback on the AVP, in case you care. There's also UWB and magsafe on the vanilla 16. And the dynamic island and the camera control button. But it's mostly little things, which many people probably don't care about.
Currently, this is roughly true. But there's a decent chance it will have a killer app within the next ~5 years, and then adoption will grow quickly. At that point, it would be nice to have a small library of videos/photos that were taken with the AVP in mind.
Regardless of the AVP's success, there will probably be some AR/VR device that becomes popular, and can read this format in the future.
VR is not usable if it's not ultralight on account of the physical pain the weight of the headset causes. Of course the AVP is the worst for this as it's made of metal and glass.
it's probably better to get iPhone 15 Pro even if second hand but good condition. On swappa you can get it for $550 and iPhone 15 Pro still support apple intelligence.
Which is why this came out in February, after most of the sales of the iPhone 16 are done.
Which is also why we will probably see the discontinuation of the regular iPhone 16 this Fall when the iPhone 17 is introduced, with this 16e staying on at the same price for an extra year.
While I'm not an expert, betting on the older model staying at the same price point until after the next model is released is a fairly safe bet, if you don't get an ever bigger discount once the next version comes out in the fall. Unless their own modem fails horribly, it seems they will continue with the new modem on the 17, driving the 16e price down.
I do not expect the 16e to reduce in price for at last 18 months. Apple has been tightening the screws on its prices. Also, the c1 modem is not coming to every single device Apple makes this year. Qualcomm announced that there is a deal for new iPhone launches until 2026. We're not done yet with Qualcomm and Apple.
You should get 5 years of updates out of it I suspect. It was originally released in September of 2021. So, 2026 might be the final year of iOS updates you'll get, then it's just a matter of how long they back port any security fixes. Sometimes devices end up getting longer support so it's tough to say for sure.
At this point one of these SE type devices is on my list for any future upgrades. I've gone to carrying a pocketable camera with me pretty much anywhere so having a good camera on my phone is no longer necessary, which means no more Pro model for me.
My iPhone 12 Mini has seen better days, and I will need a new phone soon. It is disappointing that there is no alternative to the iPhone 12/13 Mini in 2025.
The smaller form factor is more comfortable in my hand, and fits better in my pockets. With the slim bezels, I have never felt that the screen was too small.
It is funny to think that the screen size on the iPhone 12 Mini is very similar to the screen size on the older plus models.
How possible is it for there to be a "disruptor" to the smartphone market?
I think Apple's selling point is the app ecosystem, but I personally don't use apps all that much. Just a few big ones and they're all just for communication: FB Messenger, WhatsApp, SIM, SnapChat. And the web browser, maps. I'm 27.
Why can't someone just manufacture a screen, some buttons, little computer, then software for communication and make some good money?
Just seems Apple is a dinosaur nowadays Google too.
A few lower end black and white screen Android phones exist, and that seems closer to what you want.
I have some other obligations to handle, but the iPhone 16e looks perfect for me. You can replace so much music production gear with an IOS device. Can legit plug in a microphone and record a full album, which just isn't really their on Android.
It's beyond frustrating, but on IOS you have amazing music production, and Android is like 10 years behind. I wish Apple would offer a musicians edition with a headphone jack ( I'd literally pay an extra 150$) , but that's never going to happen...
What would a disruptor in the smartphone space even do in 2025?
It's not like the status quo phones are too expensive, too small or too slow compared to the average user's use case. There is a phone for every price point, and at worst you'll be stuck with a bad camera or a laggy chipset.
There are already phones running Linux and de-Googled OSes (Purism, Librem, LineageOS). They won't ever get big enough to challenge Apple/Samsung, but maybe be big enough to have a stable enough OS to not scare off people looking to switch.
Is it the phone or the software that you installed on the phone? You're blaming the horse the bandit rode in on rather than saying that the bandit is the issue.
Not sure how you can have the software without the hardware.
Screens are addictive. Why they are addictive is an interesting question- but regardless of the software being used- video games, social media, browsing the web, the fact remains that these activities are all addictive. I suspect it's just because screens are shiny, colorful, interactive objects. It doesn't matter what app you give a baby or a chimp, they will stare at the screen for many hours. TV addiction illustrates my point further.
Anyways, this is all besides my original question. Apple/Google feel like the IBM/HP of old. What shape will the new Apple/Google take?
The assumption that everyone has an issue with a device is where you loose me. I rarely look at my phone. I don't have any social apps on it. I only use the phone if I'm away from my keyboard. It is absolutely possible to own a device and not be addicted to it. I use my device for things that are useful, not unhealthy habits. It is not the device's fault you use it for unhealthy habits. Recognizing and admitting the problem is a huge step
>Not sure how you can have the software without the hardware.
You can have good software. You can have bad software. The hardware does not make it good or bad. The software is whatever the devs made it to be utilizing whatever hardware on which it runs. The user is ultimately responsible for the software they use whether they installed it or it is preinstalled.
Again, blaming the horse because the rider is doing bad things is not the right approach
> In your example, I can just look thru your HN history and see you posted dozens of times yesterday.
What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? I don't use a device to do this.
856 comments
[ 3.9 ms ] story [ 629 ms ] threadThis has been a long time coming since Apple bought Intels modem division several years ago.
I’m also interested to see if it enables cellular in laptops. Afaik the limiting factor has been that Qualcomm charge a percentage of device rate , which would be exorbitant for a laptop. Having it be in house might allow for it now.
Why? It uses a linear zoom like a classic lens design inside and embeds an optical 2x zoom lens into a smaller area.
From the press release:
> With an integrated 2x Telephoto, users have the equivalent of two cameras in one, and can zoom in with optical quality to get closer to the subject and easily frame their shot.
Edit: reading below it's still unsure if they actually have a lens that moves back & forth to achieve the zoom.
> 12MP 5x Telephoto: 120 mm, ƒ/2.8 aperture and 20° field of view, 100% Focus Pixels, seven-element lens, 3D sensor-shift optical image stabilization and autofocus, tetraprism design. 5x optical zoom in, 2x optical zoom out; 10x optical zoom range
An image showing what they did earlier: https://i.4pda.ws/s/as6yz0d0FvbZniF2YYSyZ3z2HOWajz2.jpg
Same thing with the new modem.
I'm a bit suspicious about this, because if it was truly great, they would have waited longer to advertise it as a must have feature for their "pro" devices.
It's sort of beta testing the thing on the lower volume product with less tech literate people who won't complain too much because of some weird connectivity issues.
If it performs, Apple is going to make even more money on the next round of iPhone, not that Apple needs any more money but you know, if that could stop them from increasing the price, that could be nice.
Since Apple owns the whole stack, they can iterate faster too.
If you have an actual physical zoom lens, cropping a zoomed out photo produces a different result than zooming in with the lens in the first place. Even when your camera/sensor doesn't move. It's all physics yo
Are WWAN cards not a thing already? I've never looked much into them at all, but they do seem to exist, at least (and seem to be around $20-$50 and plug into M.2 slots)
It's a matter of choice, and I'm not judging people who like it by any means, but I'm a bit boneheaded on these things and don't change my choices that fast. For example, I still don't think OLED is suitable for TV sized screens and laptops. I know how the color and contrast is better, but I don't want to replace my TV or laptop every three years because it develops subtle burn-ins for example. I come from CRTs, and can endure a good backlit LCD a couple of more years, esp if it has color temperature adaptive backlight.
Hoping against hope that Apple brings back that size/form factor someday so clinging on to my 13 mini until that day comes...
(Or do what I always thought they should do and have a small iPhone and a normal sized one with identical internals, only the case, battery, and screen would be different.)
Size matters for me : I'm looking for a compact Android phone, there is none now. Something close to the iPhone 12 mini.
Both SE 2020 and 2022 had a body size of 138.4mm x 67.3mm, which gives a diagonal of 153.9mm or 6.1 inches.
The new iPhone 16e has a body of 146.7mm x 71.5mm, with a diagonal of 163.2mm, or 6.4 inches. So only 5% bigger.
How about accepting that we know what we want and that we don't need you you to lecture us on our preferences? Seriously, what's wrong with you? "Oh you complained about your preference on X, but let me educate you about your preferences are wrong?"
Not sure if I want to upgrade.
Con(?): 60 Hz
And the price hike again shows that Apple is the master of the "for just a few hundred dollars more, you can get...“ upsell to bigger iPhones.
Among mainstream users, people just don't care and this isn't remotely the differentiator people seem to hold it as. Similar to the micro bezel fetish, these are spec-chaser points that certain manufacturers convince people are must haves. But they really aren't.
I agree that most users don't consciously care, but I think its definitely possible that it influences how fast the phone feels and could influence purchases if you are testing them side-by-side in a store. There is some anecdotal evidence to that in the fact that Google does the extremely scummy thing of locking their non-pro Pixels to 60Hz when in demo mode regardless of the refresh rate setting chosen in the OS.
In my point of view, the bummer is non LTPO display, preventing going down to 1hz which can save some battery if you use your phone for reading.
I think being able to cram this amount of new tech (a new camera, a new modem) for a new device is good for apple. I believe this will play out well, and this tech will graduate the so-called flagships in a couple of years.
iPhone 16e: $599, 6.1-inch display, 5.78 x 2.82 x 0.31, 5.88 ounces
This is a major downgrade in every way for people who want the smallest possible iPhone.
But I have to say, I was more annoyed by the loss of touch ID than by the increase in screen size. While I like the smallest possible iPhone, my SE has not been very nice to use lately. Developers aren't testing their sites/apps on that screen size, and many sites/apps are getting really janky when run on a screen that small.
There was a big gap (5+ years?) between the small iPhone SE and the 12 mini, so a lot of people jumping on 12 mini and being disappointed by the small phone may have resulted in disappointing sales of 13 mini.
But I’m sure the phone sellers know what they are doing, it just would have been nice to even be able to still buy a 13 mini. None of the new phones have any capabilities I care about.
Edit to respond to below:
I am not assuming that, I am actually assuming the opposite. There may have been pent up demand due to the long gap between the small iPhone SE and 12 mini, so when the 12 mini came out and disappointed, people who had been waiting to upgrade chose a non mini reducing the total number of minis sold. And then the 13 mini was discontinued by the time those people needed a new phone.
But again, probably wishful thinking on my part.
If you start serving every 4% of needs in each product category, watch the portfolio balloon to catastrophic proportions. The very principle of the thing is anti-Apple; they would quickly become Samsung, complete with Samsung level naming schemes and weird decision making. Next thing you know, we'll have the Apple Vacuum Cleaner, the Apple Door Lock, the Apple Ice Cream Scoop, the Apple Exterior Camera, and so on.
iPhone as a category is so massive now that small percentages are still millions of people.
It's kind of sad that Apple itself has become so huge, because now the company ignores people it used to care about.
For the kinds of people who frequent HN, I'd wager we all do have a computer, heck there's probably a laptop in your backpack right now, so it makes sense to have a smaller phone for 'phone stuff' and whip out your laptop to do anything more involved.
Still though, surely Apple made money from the mini, even 3% of iPhone sales is a lot of phone sales! I wish they would keep it around.
I like small phones. 6% doesn't seem all that different from the current SE.
The fact that all that space seems to be going to battery life does seem nice...
I mean, isn't everyone here on HN always making fun of Apple's supposedly unnecessary obsession with thinness? Now it's a teensy bit thicker.
You don't make a phone half as tall and twice as thick and claim it's the same size...
Weight also matters.
I honestly still prefer the form factor of the iPhone 3GS. (I have an old one in a drawer for comparison.) 4.8 ounces, 4.5 x 2.4 x 0.48 with a rounded back. The thickness wasn't a problem.
The smallest possible iPhone ever was possibly the original iPhone.
They have the exact same A15 Bionic, with the same 4GB of memory. The 13 mini has an extra 400maH of battery.
I've had both and the iPhone SE (2022) lasted longer in my personal use. (sold the 13 in an antiapple mood only to come back and get an SE later)
Apple's own comparison tool is useful: https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone-16e,i...
But not for 600 USD, that's a bit too much.
These types of "budget" phones that Apple does are for people who can't/won't buy the flagship (because too expensive) but wouldn't buy something second-hand either.
There are a LOT of people like that. It is not rational at all; they would rather buy something shittier for their money than get more value. My grandparents are like that.
To buy in the second-hand market you need to have some knowledge about how phones compare in the first place, even if you use a platform that minimizes the risks.
So, it's not the same market at all, and Apple is pushing their luck even more with a pricing way too high for what is essentially a 3 years old phones at best (the chip makes little difference to the typical user of these phones).
https://www.verizon.com/smartphones/apple-iphone-14/
They even tell you what the actual rate is in the fine print. It's just priced in: 17.49$ over 36 months comes out to 629$.
>Monthly payments shown are for customers who qualify to pay $0 Down, $17.49/mo. for36months; 0% APR. Retail Price: $629.99
It isn't just verizon either. Here is metropcs offering free iphone 13s for new customers:
https://www.metrobyt-mobile.com/cell-phone/apple-iphone-13
It's entirely rational. I bought plenty of used phones, and even repaired them myself because I couldn't afford new ones. Would not do that again.
The risk of getting scammed, or getting a phone with issues is too high. Both have happened to me in the past. It can even be dangerous if someone swapped out the battery with a cheapo fire hazard. A lot of resale prices are also simply too high to be worth it.
Now imagine your grandparents. As you said, the exact model/chip doesn't matter, any phone is good enough. What they're buying is an appliance that will last at least the warranty period (2 years, EU), but likely much longer. Basically piece of mind at a fixed price. They won't get scammed (online) or ripped off (used in a physical store) if they buy directly from Apple.
They have a warranty up to one year, and any problem is resolved pretty quickly.
It’s not as cheap as trying your luck in the various 2nd hand sites but if you value safety and time it’s worth it. It still comes out much cheaper than anything brand new.
I bought quite a lot of phones on those platforms and the only time there was an issue (faulty touch layer on a display side) it was swapped within 3 days.
It’s irrational fear really. If anything those phones are rock solide because if they survived the first few years of their lives, unless there is an event they are very likely to have a long life (no faulty part, pre-tested); the only care is battery life if that wasn’t changed during refurbishing. But generally people who can benefit from those phone do just fine pushing the battery to the very end of its life so it doesn’t even matter that much. A non trivial amount of those phone end up there because they are fully financed after 2 years and the owner gets a new one. Sometimes you find one year old phone that were just swapped for the newest one because their owner is rich enough that he can’t be bothered to do a battery replacement and would rather have the newest model.
Some people are rich and many don’t have that much financial responsibility, people should take advantage of that, just saying…
This phone is at least modern, but it's not great value for money.
It's worth what people are willing to pay and plenty of people valued it enough to put their hand in their pocket.
When the time comes, I'll probably look for a used iPhone 14/15 instead of a new iPhone 16e. To much money for my purpose.
I've been sniping used Pixels off there for really good prices.
I dunno, the old SE wasn’t a mini by any means - this is .3 inches taller and .2 inches wider, so yes bigger but not like a different size class altogether
Too bad the management consultants killed such a technology.
I’m willing to bet it was some people in management that missed the small phones and fought to re-introduce a smaller form factor phone. They succeeded in making the best small phones ever made and rounding down approximately nobody bought them. Blame the general public for killing the form factor.
Traditionally, the amount of RAM in your device is the limiting factor that controls how many years of updates you get.
So far, 8 years for the OG iPhone SE is the standing record for years of updates.
I am guessing that's the end of the small phone line at Apple.
That really ended with the 13 mini on which I'm typing this comment and that I'll hold onto till it's no longer supported.
"Is Uncle Dave coming this Thanksgiving?"
"No, he was adopted by a competing family. We're suing."
That said, if this is their "first gen" then there could be teething issues.
Anyone who disagrees should try teaching an older relative with less than youthful fine motor control how to use a FaceID equipped iPhone.
Meanwhile, the Settings app keeps begging me to "Finish Setting Up Your iPhone".
(I initially thought you might mean faceid doesn't work if you're a bit shaky, but I just tried that and it surprisingly doesn't care.)
Still more deterministic than Face ID.
There was also a rumor of in-display Touch ID.
It's the perfect way to accidentally all of the things.
Accidentally open an app. Now you have to wait for it to load, and waste your network data and battery, before you can do what you really wanted to do.
Accidentally read that message, and also accidentally swipe it away while you fumble with your phone. You didn't want to see that message anyway.
Accidentally add that person to your contact groups. Yup, you added your boss to the conversation with your wife. Nobody will mind!
Accidentally read an email, and clicked on that phishing link. Cool beans, security relies on 2FA anyway, right? It's not like it could open an app and automagically read the SMS code, right?
Accidentally start playing video. Yes that video. In the conference room. It's nice that everyone has a great sense of humor!
Mostly I just want a phone that is comfortable in my hands.
Apple tried with the iPhone 12 mini, and the iPhone 13 mini. They were only 5% of phones sold globally, and only 3% of phones sold in the US.
The desire for small phones is an internet thing, but not backed by the market. Take it as a reality check for how internet opinions can be mostly irrelevant.
It's a huge cost for something that sold (relatively) poorly.
Apple is making way too much money for the good of their customers. If only people would stop mindlessly buying, they would eventually listen but their userbase has become so huge that they are not going to change anytime soon.
What if, and I know this is a crazy thought but what if people aren’t buying Apple products mindlessly? What if they buy them because they like them? Maybe they’d didn’t buy the mini phones because they didn’t like them.
Then again, you are confused, I never said they were buying mindlessly. They buy it because they are popular and confer status. This is why the vast majority of people buy them, not a well-reasoned and careful choice attained by proper comparison and knowledge after reviewing options.
It's not good for people who view those things as tools, because price increase and focus on the historical target group diminish tremendously.
It's not something that is exclusive to Apple but it's particularly painful because of the quirks of computing (having software linked to a particular hardware platform).
And yes, they didn't buy the Mini phone because they didn't like them. It confers less status and is not as good as a social media machine, so of course.
But by this logic McDonalds must be good because of how many people like them and somehow that's a desirable and valuable outcome.
Apple knows its sales and profits much better than anyone else.
Apple owes small phone enjoyers nothing and they will drag you into paying more for a phone you don't want because you are helpless.
Figure most of those 3% would buy a different iPhone model if their preference was not available (not Android, because even if brand loyalty / ecosystem lock-in wasn't so powerful, the Android small-phone options are not competitive).
Then figure that 0.5% (generously!) of lost revenue has to pay for all the custom tooling, parts, manufacturing lines, etc.
... and it all makes an infernal kind of sense.
I'm still anachronistically appreciating my iPhone SE (Gen 1) with a 4" IPS display, Touch ID, Lightning connector, and a 3.5mm audio jack. It's great!
Except that I'll need to upgrade from iOS 15 at some point. :)
People have said this for years, but the mini phones were never going to be instant day-one hits. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy to launch them during Covid, offer them 2 years, and say no one wants them.
Give them a permanent place in the lineup, treating phones like every other very personal device meant for humans. Small, medium, and large.
If you do that, and give people time to see exactly why 5.42 screens are superior to 6.1"+ sizes, then I think the numbers will start to change from what we saw with the iPhone 12 mini and iPhone 13 mini that were launched when people were less on the go than in 100 years.
And no, I don't think a mini SKU can ever beat out the "cheap and big" midrange device that the average person is going to go for. Those will never be beat because they have perceived value. But I would bet in time it comes close or beats the "big and expensive" iPhone Pro Max option.
Is there a significantly reduced bill of materials? At best, the correlation between size and cost is very small. Most of the costs are in software, manufacturing, etc, not in materials.
Also, would there be a better profit margin? I bet customers won’t want to pay the same for a smaller phone, certainly not give that it will have lower battery life (power usage will, at best, go up with screen area, and battery volume will go up faster than phone volume because parts such as CPUs will not be smaller in smaller phones)
"Can you provide this without the characteristic vagueness and padding of AI-generated text? I’d prefer something more precise, substantive, and thoughtfully constructed."
This keeps the directness while adding depth and clarity. Let me know if you'd like it even sharper.
However, part of the process of creating an open industry standard like 4G/5G is getting a legally binding commitment from the patent holders to license standards essential patents to all takers on "reasonable" terms.
> If the patent holder refuses upon request to license a patent that has become essential to a standard, then the standard-setting organization must exclude that technology.
https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discrimina...
So Qualcomm is still entitled to some money, but not nearly as much as they made back when there was no legal restriction on what they could demand.
> It was first implemented in Finland in December 1991. By the mid-2010s, it became a global standard for mobile communications achieving over 90% market share, and operating in over 193 countries and territories.
https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM
https://www.apple.com/iphone-16e/specs/
5G NR (Bands n1, n2, n3, n5, n7, n8, n12, n14, n20, n25, n26, n28, n29, n30, n38, n40, n41, n48, n53, n66, n70, n71, n75, n76, n77, n78, n79)
FDD‑LTE (Bands 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18, 19, 20, 25, 26, 28, 29, 30, 32, 66, 71)
TD‑LTE (Bands 34, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 48, 53)
UMTS/HSPA+ (850, 900, 1700/2100, 1900, 2100 MHz)
GSM/EDGE (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz)
My current iPhone (and I had to check which one I have...) actually is much more sticky to satellite. It wont switch back to cellular immediately.
I'm curious, is "woah" incorrect? If so, why?
Actually I like "hmf" despite my usual distaste for the dilution of "ph" to "f". The "ph" in "hmph" seems incidental, so it does not trigger me, I guess!
There is a highway sign somewhere on I-95 for "Fenix Ave", which took me a while to realize was a vicious act committed by illiterates against "Phoenix Avenue".
Dictionaries are descriptive of actual use, not prescriptive rulings. Both spellings are completely valid, the pedantry is incorrect.
I'm curious what you think digital zoom is if not cropping.
While I don't think it's right to call these crops "optical zoom", the quality is typically pretty good.
Presumably the standard image on the 16e converts the 48 MP sensor into a 12 MP image with less noise because they bin 4 sensor pixels into 1 pixel in the image file. So a 12 MP crop on the 48 MP sensor would result in a zoomed image with the same 12 MP resolution as the standard image. A major drawback would be higher image noise, but nobody will see a reduction in image pixels. At the end of the day it's probably somewhere between true optical zoom and a 12 MP native sensor with a crop.
I don't think i'd give up the camera for it though.. but a boy can dream.
There's all sorts of limitations that seem less like thoughtful design and more like holding back the devices just that bit to make you want another device. You can't just want an iPad Pro, how will you run desktop apps? You can't just want an iPad Mini, how will you call people?
Well, at least the iPads can function as calculators now.
Pixel Tablet with GrapheneOS has less limitations and will soon have Linux VMs, but lacks a keyboard travel case, and has been discontinued.
But I'm not even talking about Linux stuff, just basic use cases. Like a website somehow doesn't work with the iPad/iPhone, even if you forcibly request the desktop version. (YouTube creator studio live streaming is one example, or random airliners' in-flight video sites.) You need to unzip, manipulate, re-zip, and email something. Putting stuff on a USB stick for a print shop. Doing taxes. Running some Mac/Windows-only software.
How I wish Apple would work to make this better than the current state. Currently it's very ugly (bad scaling, weird res, weird bars around screen), high latency, needs some configuration...
Just let me plug in a cable and it should immediately become a display. (with video over DP?)
Non-Pro iPads are limited to USB2 speeds. Capturing 4K content for display on iPad would need a Pro device with USB3/Thunderbolt USB-c input.
1080p on a small screen isn't bad, though.
I hope they never do that, it was a disaster on Windows 8.
The iPhone 4 had stainless steel frame, yet they made a big deal of it with the X and subsequent "Pro" generation when it was a standard "feature" that set them appart for success in the first place. It's crazy how much bullshit Apple have been selling since their financiarisation.
Have you seen what cars people buy?
Welcome to the modern world.
Some people may care a little extra for an ultrawide lens and spending more for the cheaper iPhone 16 with 2 lenses of regular + ultrawide is enough for that. Don't have to get the more expensive Pro model.
The Pro model adds a 3rd lens for optical "true" telephoto instead of digitized "fake" telephoto and increases the resolution on the ultrawide.
It's also not clear from from the Apple press release if the 16e has a macro mode. The regular iPhone 16 (not Pro) has macro.
But then why would you buy the pro?
16 Pro: 48MP macro photography
16: Macro photography
16e: —
[0]: https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/
I don't see much in favor of the vanilla iPhone 16. Is the extra camera lens useful for anything beyond portrait mode?
Regardless of the AVP's success, there will probably be some AR/VR device that becomes popular, and can read this format in the future.
The new modem is interesting. How much power around the world is being wasted because Qualcomm's code sucks? Apparently gigawatts per day.
That's enough power to drive a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus a distance of... 55 meters.
Even if Qualcomm's code was solely responsible for completely draining my phone's battery every single day, it would still not be very much power.
I'm guessing you might miss the cool animations but for charging and mounting it will work the same.
Which is also why we will probably see the discontinuation of the regular iPhone 16 this Fall when the iPhone 17 is introduced, with this 16e staying on at the same price for an extra year.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-11/apple-aap...
You’ll have to pry the 13 mini from my cold dead hands…or just stop supporting it
At this point one of these SE type devices is on my list for any future upgrades. I've gone to carrying a pocketable camera with me pretty much anywhere so having a good camera on my phone is no longer necessary, which means no more Pro model for me.
My iPhone 12 Mini has seen better days, and I will need a new phone soon. It is disappointing that there is no alternative to the iPhone 12/13 Mini in 2025.
The smaller form factor is more comfortable in my hand, and fits better in my pockets. With the slim bezels, I have never felt that the screen was too small.
It is funny to think that the screen size on the iPhone 12 Mini is very similar to the screen size on the older plus models.
sigh
If your concern is pocketability this new phone is only 0.25 inches larger in the diagonal.
For them: more control, lower marginal costs.
I think Apple's selling point is the app ecosystem, but I personally don't use apps all that much. Just a few big ones and they're all just for communication: FB Messenger, WhatsApp, SIM, SnapChat. And the web browser, maps. I'm 27.
Why can't someone just manufacture a screen, some buttons, little computer, then software for communication and make some good money?
Just seems Apple is a dinosaur nowadays Google too.
A few lower end black and white screen Android phones exist, and that seems closer to what you want.
I have some other obligations to handle, but the iPhone 16e looks perfect for me. You can replace so much music production gear with an IOS device. Can legit plug in a microphone and record a full album, which just isn't really their on Android.
It's beyond frustrating, but on IOS you have amazing music production, and Android is like 10 years behind. I wish Apple would offer a musicians edition with a headphone jack ( I'd literally pay an extra 150$) , but that's never going to happen...
It's not like the status quo phones are too expensive, too small or too slow compared to the average user's use case. There is a phone for every price point, and at worst you'll be stuck with a bad camera or a laggy chipset.
There are already phones running Linux and de-Googled OSes (Purism, Librem, LineageOS). They won't ever get big enough to challenge Apple/Samsung, but maybe be big enough to have a stable enough OS to not scare off people looking to switch.
Phones occupy the same space as nicotine in my head, so why not explore that comparison?
Not sure how you can have the software without the hardware.
Screens are addictive. Why they are addictive is an interesting question- but regardless of the software being used- video games, social media, browsing the web, the fact remains that these activities are all addictive. I suspect it's just because screens are shiny, colorful, interactive objects. It doesn't matter what app you give a baby or a chimp, they will stare at the screen for many hours. TV addiction illustrates my point further.
Anyways, this is all besides my original question. Apple/Google feel like the IBM/HP of old. What shape will the new Apple/Google take?
I made no such assumption.
This is far astray from the original thread
You can have good software. You can have bad software. The hardware does not make it good or bad. The software is whatever the devs made it to be utilizing whatever hardware on which it runs. The user is ultimately responsible for the software they use whether they installed it or it is preinstalled.
Again, blaming the horse because the rider is doing bad things is not the right approach
> In your example, I can just look thru your HN history and see you posted dozens of times yesterday.
What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? I don't use a device to do this.