<< The point is that someone in bad circumstances can focus on the task
There is something to be said about being able to focus on something other than your immediate surroundings. This one guy[1], for example, was apparently focused on the task of infiltrating Auschwitz.
Isn’t this article complaining about complaints? Does that make it paradoxical?
I think complaints, even gossipy ones, hold value. I agree with the general premise that it’s easier to complain, but in the hotel towel footnote honestly I’d complain to my friends because it’s a story to tell, not because I expect them to actually avoid the hotel. Misery loves company.
Sorry, it was similar enough that you triggered my automatic "tolerance is not a paradox" response. I'm sure you weren't trying to justify all forms of "complaining" with pseudo-intellectual BS so, please forgive me for lashing out :)
I agree, there's a funny thing about it, but to me it's more optimistic ;) It's like a very good point is being made, it's not perfect but, somehow, that point could be used to sharpen itself.
"This deserves improvement" and "this deserves complaining and I will refuse to enjoy it" are two independent conclusions that don't need to come together.
I doubt think the article is doing the former, while you're suggesting that it can't come without implying the latter.
I'm firmly convinced that some people can only be happy while making others miserable. Choosing to be happy when they're determined to ruin your day will drive them nuts.
Blanket complaining about complaining without any reservation is hypocritical.[1]
It presupposes that all complaining is just to be negative. But people also complain in order to vent. And it isn’t just selfish. Venting can be cathartic for both parties.
There’s a psychological and social component to complaining. And denying that is just negative-nancy complaining.
Presumably the article would be used as ammo in an argument with his wife. Doing that is a good way to break a relationship. Not saying that is what happened, but that is what the commenter meant.
> By not being aware of having a shadow, you declare a part of your personality to be non-existent. Then it enters the kingdom of the non-existent, which swells up and takes on enormous proportions…If you get rid of qualities you don’t like by denying them, you become more and more unaware of what you are, you declare yourself more and more non-existent, and your devils will grow fatter and fatter.
You can't "optimism away" the "negative" emotions. You just bury them, but they continue to live in your system, and find their own ways out eventually.
It's easy to fall into the trap of endless negativity. It's also easy to fall into the trap of toxic positivity, where you refuse to process pain or the "negative" because you're trying so hard to force the positive.
> You can't "optimism away" the "negative" emotions. You just bury them, but they continue to live in your system, and find their own ways out eventually.
Sadness, anger, grief, loneliness, fear, these are all emotions that are part of being human, and they don't just go away (they just get buried or bypassed).
They're also emotions that contribute to the richness of being human, and shouldn't go away. Instead they should be understood and integrated into the whole.
> If you’re optimistic then you don’t have negative emotions
You cannot totally rid yourself of these emotions.
Jung's point is that the negative emotions are there, just hidden from view. I actually think that "negative" is inaccurate, to be honest. Jung referring to it as the Shadow works better. These emotions aren't evil demons that should be expunged at the altar of optimism. They're parts of ourselves that need to be integrated.
Optimism, pessimism, meh. In the tradition of tech, I choose skepticism. Two old guys ordering champagne on flights, a couple weeks apart, perfectly embodying the issue of the essay? Reads like a Just So story to me, better suited to LinkedIn.
The way text resizes on that website is so strange. It's actually amazing how awful it is. Like they went out of their way to ensure it resizes in the most ridiculous possible manner. And the zoom on my browser does nothing. Absolutely amazing.
Yea, wow. The very first thing I do on most websites is CMD-+ to make the text larger and to make it fit my browser window horizontally, and somehow this site managed to be so bad that it prevents even that. I don't know how we keep furthering this trend of having a web site be a 5 inch wide strip of tiny font text down the middle of the browser window, with double that in whitespace on either side.
I've discovered that the people I most enjoy being around are those that are authentically optimistic. Not those that are blind to everything negative, and not those who are faking it to ameliorate themselves, but those who are encouraged by the opportunity for a better tomorrow. Astonishingly, these are often people that have suffered overwhelming personal tragedy. I've also noticed that the more time I spend around these people, the more emotionally resilient I become myself to difficulties.
There seems to be common sentiment that being optimistic is somehow ignorant or otherwise insidious. Maybe this is true, but I am already too familiar with the acute pain that comes with a life entrenched in pessimism to allow myself to fall into that spiral.
i posit that the term optimism in its common usage conflates hope and delusion , hope being a subset of delusion that is consciously utilised in stimulating behaviour percieved to bring one closer to their goals , as opposed to a collapse of agency into pure fantasy disconnected from reality ... by demarcating these two concepts it is shown that optimism groups potentials both insidious and beautiful ... as usual, evidenciary of good and bad not being mutually exclusive ...
> Astonishingly, these are often people that have suffered overwhelming personal tragedy.
It sounds cliche, but a pair of the most powerful people I’ve known (in terms of personality) are near death survivors.
One was in a small plane crash, the other was a SEAL that went into Grenada. He had rather long scar on his neck.
Very positive people, almost, but not quite, devil may care.
And it brings to mind a line from an early episode from “The Expanse”, where a character nearly died and, later returned on a dangerous mission. About how he should have died before, and now he was on bonus time.
I’m not convinced folks can talk themselves into the mindset that may come from experiences like that. It’s old news, we’ve all heard it. But, most of us, seemingly, are unconvinced.
"A cynic is never wrong, but an optimist is always right" is a saying my friends and I have. Chronic pessimists and cynics often see and say much truth about the world. But the optimists will succeed much more in their goals, business, relationships, and many other parts of life. They have a deeper set of values and philosophy that is more right, even if they get the particulars wrong sometimes.
There are tons of comments online that claim emotionally secure and mature people are ignorant or even irresponsible if they're not in perpetual anxiety about the world. The "you should be scared with the way the world is" type. Obviously, what they claim is not true, and it's very unhealthy. But someone who is emotionally secure understands they gain nothing from a neurotic debate online, so they don't call these opinions out. The opinions remain there, unchallenged, seemingly agreeable and prevalent.
Life entrenched in pessimism is also a bit contagious. Though I don't want to be unkind, I have to be honest: there is a limit to how much I can try to help someone with that mindset before they drag me down with them. Something I learned studying field medicine (and this isn't some secret in the first responder world or just general knowledge) is that you protect your safety first. If you arrive in a situation and add yourself to the casualty list, you are just not helping anyone: you get hurt, and you create more work. I think this applies not only to physical hazards, but also to emotional ones. One more depressed person in the world does not make it a better place for anyone.
It makes sense to exercise some caution, and most of our emotional brains understand that. This brings me back to the original point — it's hard for one to succeed anywhere if everyone's avoiding them (best case scenario) or being turned negative themselves (worst case scenario). Much remains to be said about the internet's role in this epidemic of negativity and various depressive disorder crises.
You can find out who is right the most by seeing who wins the most prediction contests. Those are the realists. The optimists and pessimists, by contrast, are living in imaginary worlds.
I speak about the core philosophy or set of values more. Both people who are generally pessimistic in their world view and typically optimistic can be jolly and grouchy, depending on their mood. I am talking more about their overarching outlook.
The parent comment to my original comment mentioned people who are "fake" optimists. I would describe them as jolly or bubbly often, but ultimately pessimistic. That's why their positivity feels disingenuous. It is a facade or a mask. I appreciate their effort, I am simply drawing a distinction between jolly/grouchy and optimistic/pessimistic.
Ah yes the "If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention" crowd. As if being pissed-off and scared is the highest acme of civic participation. Outrage and fear are, at best, merely the initial reaction before getting off your ass and actually doing something to change things. Sitting around in perpetual outrage is actually a maladaptive reaction and the mark of someone who has chosen to be completely impotent and powerless. Usually because they don't want the burden of taking responsibility. And hey, if that's the decision you've made, fine, you have your reasons, but then that means presumably you make peace with that decision and stop complaining. And certainly you don't shame others for what you clearly see as your own failings. It's kind of a shit or get off the pot situation.
Personally I like to think about this in terms of the reward asymmetry. In most situations if you’re cynical or pessimistic and you turn out to be right, you don’t really gain much. If you’re an optimist, and keep betting or grinding sensibly, you’ll eventually be right and there’s much to gain potentially.
> Astonishingly, these are often people that have suffered overwhelming personal tragedy.
I remember once I got into a really nice conversation with a charming old guy in a coffee shop. He was markedly optimistic and he really left an impression on me. At the end of our conversation, I found out he was a Nazi death camp survivor.
I do think that effort over time makes a difference here, though. I remember this from an interview with Ruby Sales that stuck with me (I don't know the origin of the phrase, but this is where I heard it): https://pca.st/episode/2240f0ef-004f-45cc-9e77-0a10b9905530
I love everybody.
I love everybody in my heart.
And you can't make me hate you.
And you can't make me hate you.
I think of it less like "trying to be optimistic" as much as "making sure I pause long enough to see the optimistic thoughts that are there"
I've known quite a few guys who are hopelessly bad with women. You know the type, couldn't get a date in brothel. I'm pleased to say all the ones I'm still in contact with have figured things out by now, but all of them had one thing in common: they were miserable people, always complaining.
I can offer a piece of advice to men who think they are similar: do not ever talk to anyone about things you don't like. Just don't. Talk about things you do like. This is not to say you should be a pushover, but music you don't like does not need to mentioned really ever.
In my experience women tend more towards being realistic and possibly pessimistic. But for both sexes the best way to not be negative is to be ignorant. Ignorance is bliss. It's up to each individual to decide whether being ignorant is really a good life, though.
Is this advice in relation to dating and talking to women? If so, I’d agree. I can’t imagine most people want to hear endless complaints from their first few dates.
That said, not complaining ever won’t get you anywhere either. (Even in a relationship, complaining is important if you’re suffering) A lot of times, a lack of complaining and being unaware of solutions is what results in you living a shit life forever. Complaining can be incredibly productive and healthy - especially if you’re focused on solutions. Obviously, complaining that energy isn’t free or how the sun is going to swallow us whole isn’t super productive… but there are many things worth complaining about.
Don't know why you are being down-voted, but your comment is spot on. Of course being a complainer just by nature or for the fun of it is not constructive.
But oh my, it amazes to no end how fragile the egos of people in general are.
To be fair to other users, I was rightly downvoted, I think, for a less-than-constructive "go fuck yourself," which I've since replaced with "spare me."
After 40+ years of life experience I understand why some people fall to their knees daily and beg for mercy. If getting champagne or a latte or whatever is enough to scratch your itch I applaud you. I envy you.
> Choosing optimism may feel cheesy, even embarrassing, at first.
Just go on the hike. Tell others you're going if you'd like, maybe they'll go too, but saying "it might be fun..." feels something like a complaint. "I pride myself on being optimistic, so of course I have to mention how everyone else is being pessimistic." That's why it feels embarrassing.
It depends. If someone complains about something and then fixes it, I’ll take them over the toxic optimist. There is nothing inherently wrong with complaining, what matters is the intent behind it. A complaint can be constructive, mean, funny, or any other number of good or bad things.
Being optimistic is normally a good strategy for success, but it doesn't feel appropriate in dire circumstances, such as at the onset of World War 2. 70+ million people died, not to mention all the injuries, crimes, and environmental destruction. Saying "Think positive, the Allies will win!" in 1939 would have rung hollow. Instead of optimism, there needs to be a grim determination.
I put that statement to ChatGPT, and it reminded me of Churchill's "We Shall Fight on the Beaches"[0] speech, which is defiant, rather than optimistic.
Once again we seem to be in dire circumstances, on the brink of colossal ruin, owing the the whims of a handful toxic people, and the ignorance of so many who put them into power. I'm not at all optimistic, but I can try for grim determination.
Optimism vs pessimism is a false dichotomy. Anyone can phrase any question in the format of a yes/no or as for/against, and this is very frequently just a way of controlling the entire direction of the conversation.
A realist would talk about pros/cons together, possibly in equal measure, and possibly not, and will actively resist absolute categorization of the remarks. A skeptic would ask, is your specific degree of optimism/pessimism on this thing warranted, and is this even the thing we want to be talking about? By comparison.. Why would you ever want to talk to an optimist or a pessimist, much less aspire to be either one?
108 comments
[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 168 ms ] threadTalk about optimism…
The point is that someone in bad circumstances can focus on the task and the horror of what they endure can subside.
It’s definitely possible to choose optimism and end up improving one’s situation.
There is something to be said about being able to focus on something other than your immediate surroundings. This one guy[1], for example, was apparently focused on the task of infiltrating Auschwitz.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold_Pilecki
I think complaints, even gossipy ones, hold value. I agree with the general premise that it’s easier to complain, but in the hotel towel footnote honestly I’d complain to my friends because it’s a story to tell, not because I expect them to actually avoid the hotel. Misery loves company.
I agree, there's a funny thing about it, but to me it's more optimistic ;) It's like a very good point is being made, it's not perfect but, somehow, that point could be used to sharpen itself.
I doubt think the article is doing the former, while you're suggesting that it can't come without implying the latter.
But even the article doesn't describe the latter either. Grouchy G could have enjoyed the flight despite being a complainer, we really don't know.
Why are you such a pessimist? Jolly optimists doesn't say such pessimistic things, so you are a part of the problem.
It presupposes that all complaining is just to be negative. But people also complain in order to vent. And it isn’t just selfish. Venting can be cathartic for both parties.
There’s a psychological and social component to complaining. And denying that is just negative-nancy complaining.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43797763
Also, I forwarded it to my wife…
> By not being aware of having a shadow, you declare a part of your personality to be non-existent. Then it enters the kingdom of the non-existent, which swells up and takes on enormous proportions…If you get rid of qualities you don’t like by denying them, you become more and more unaware of what you are, you declare yourself more and more non-existent, and your devils will grow fatter and fatter.
You can't "optimism away" the "negative" emotions. You just bury them, but they continue to live in your system, and find their own ways out eventually.
It's easy to fall into the trap of endless negativity. It's also easy to fall into the trap of toxic positivity, where you refuse to process pain or the "negative" because you're trying so hard to force the positive.
> “I never actually knew I had an unconscious mind, but I suppose I must have done all along, without realising it.”
That means you're doing it wrong.
They're also emotions that contribute to the richness of being human, and shouldn't go away. Instead they should be understood and integrated into the whole.
Nobody is advocating denying negative things, optimism is not letting them grow in the first place.
You cannot totally rid yourself of these emotions.
Jung's point is that the negative emotions are there, just hidden from view. I actually think that "negative" is inaccurate, to be honest. Jung referring to it as the Shadow works better. These emotions aren't evil demons that should be expunged at the altar of optimism. They're parts of ourselves that need to be integrated.
The same negative thing can happen to two people and you might get entirely different emotions as a result.
The way that people “process” external events can have a large impact on the emotions that result.
There seems to be common sentiment that being optimistic is somehow ignorant or otherwise insidious. Maybe this is true, but I am already too familiar with the acute pain that comes with a life entrenched in pessimism to allow myself to fall into that spiral.
One was in a small plane crash, the other was a SEAL that went into Grenada. He had rather long scar on his neck.
Very positive people, almost, but not quite, devil may care.
And it brings to mind a line from an early episode from “The Expanse”, where a character nearly died and, later returned on a dangerous mission. About how he should have died before, and now he was on bonus time.
I’m not convinced folks can talk themselves into the mindset that may come from experiences like that. It’s old news, we’ve all heard it. But, most of us, seemingly, are unconvinced.
https://archive.vn/MjADI
There are tons of comments online that claim emotionally secure and mature people are ignorant or even irresponsible if they're not in perpetual anxiety about the world. The "you should be scared with the way the world is" type. Obviously, what they claim is not true, and it's very unhealthy. But someone who is emotionally secure understands they gain nothing from a neurotic debate online, so they don't call these opinions out. The opinions remain there, unchallenged, seemingly agreeable and prevalent.
Life entrenched in pessimism is also a bit contagious. Though I don't want to be unkind, I have to be honest: there is a limit to how much I can try to help someone with that mindset before they drag me down with them. Something I learned studying field medicine (and this isn't some secret in the first responder world or just general knowledge) is that you protect your safety first. If you arrive in a situation and add yourself to the casualty list, you are just not helping anyone: you get hurt, and you create more work. I think this applies not only to physical hazards, but also to emotional ones. One more depressed person in the world does not make it a better place for anyone.
It makes sense to exercise some caution, and most of our emotional brains understand that. This brings me back to the original point — it's hard for one to succeed anywhere if everyone's avoiding them (best case scenario) or being turned negative themselves (worst case scenario). Much remains to be said about the internet's role in this epidemic of negativity and various depressive disorder crises.
The parent comment to my original comment mentioned people who are "fake" optimists. I would describe them as jolly or bubbly often, but ultimately pessimistic. That's why their positivity feels disingenuous. It is a facade or a mask. I appreciate their effort, I am simply drawing a distinction between jolly/grouchy and optimistic/pessimistic.
"Will this person treat me fairly/kindly?" Often your optimism/pessimism will be a self fulfilling prophecy.
"Is this rainy day a good thing or a bad thing?" (An example from the article.) It turns out, you get to decide.
I remember once I got into a really nice conversation with a charming old guy in a coffee shop. He was markedly optimistic and he really left an impression on me. At the end of our conversation, I found out he was a Nazi death camp survivor.
I can offer a piece of advice to men who think they are similar: do not ever talk to anyone about things you don't like. Just don't. Talk about things you do like. This is not to say you should be a pushover, but music you don't like does not need to mentioned really ever.
In my experience women tend more towards being realistic and possibly pessimistic. But for both sexes the best way to not be negative is to be ignorant. Ignorance is bliss. It's up to each individual to decide whether being ignorant is really a good life, though.
That said, not complaining ever won’t get you anywhere either. (Even in a relationship, complaining is important if you’re suffering) A lot of times, a lack of complaining and being unaware of solutions is what results in you living a shit life forever. Complaining can be incredibly productive and healthy - especially if you’re focused on solutions. Obviously, complaining that energy isn’t free or how the sun is going to swallow us whole isn’t super productive… but there are many things worth complaining about.
I wonder how capitalists feel about complainers.
The voice of Nature loudly cries, And many a message from the skies, That something in us never dies:
- Robert Burns
Biggest laugh I’ve had all week!
But oh my, it amazes to no end how fragile the egos of people in general are.
Just go on the hike. Tell others you're going if you'd like, maybe they'll go too, but saying "it might be fun..." feels something like a complaint. "I pride myself on being optimistic, so of course I have to mention how everyone else is being pessimistic." That's why it feels embarrassing.
I put that statement to ChatGPT, and it reminded me of Churchill's "We Shall Fight on the Beaches"[0] speech, which is defiant, rather than optimistic.
Once again we seem to be in dire circumstances, on the brink of colossal ruin, owing the the whims of a handful toxic people, and the ignorance of so many who put them into power. I'm not at all optimistic, but I can try for grim determination.
[0] https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/speeches/1940-the-fin...
A realist would talk about pros/cons together, possibly in equal measure, and possibly not, and will actively resist absolute categorization of the remarks. A skeptic would ask, is your specific degree of optimism/pessimism on this thing warranted, and is this even the thing we want to be talking about? By comparison.. Why would you ever want to talk to an optimist or a pessimist, much less aspire to be either one?