The title is a bit clickbait because it's not really about leaving tech, it's about leaving the bullshit behind. If you don't want to work for FAANG actively ruining the world then you have options. In addition to what is posted here, the best advice I can give is to work at a company that isn't a tech company. More regular companies than you think employ software engineers.
This article is not a "I want to leave tech" article. It is an "I want to have more ownership of the nature of my work" article.
Practically every recommendation is also a tech job, its just not "big tech" where you have very little real decision making power.
Tech itself is not the issue here - tech being filled with high paying jobs where you effectively work on issues that directly damage humanity is the issue. And after you have a high paying job its hard to justify leaving it, and every other similarly paying job is basically the same thing in a different package.
> every other similarly paying job is basically the same thing in a different package.
Well, a lot of them. Not every. There are jobs at big tech companies where you work on good things benefiting society, like improving security in open-source, or developing a lot of the OSS tools out there. (Think Project Zero, or many of your favorite major OSS project, which are developed by engineers at big tech.) They are not nearly as common as other roles obviously, but they do exist, and it's worth at least attempting to get them.
> tech being filled with high paying jobs where you effectively work on issues that directly damage humanity is the issue. And after you have a high paying job its hard to justify leaving it, and every other similarly paying job is basically the same thing in a different package
A thousand times, yes.
And even if you find ethical jobs (e.g., paid-for and ethically committed open source work), they are much-much more difficult to do well. Distrust and secrecy are absolutely rampant between you and your (inevitably proprietary) partners; reverse engineering plays a central role. It's a warzone -- and the constant fighting, battling, against measures put in place by other humans, just takes the will to live out of me.
It should be possible for well-paying, ethical, interesting, and co-operative jobs to exist. They only exist as exceptions.
It feels like this is missing the mid sized company that isn't looking to grow and IPO. There are plenty of companies that just have a product and sell it to make payroll. They're just overlooked in the hustle.
I don't think such a thing exists (unfortunately). Show me a business leader that says, "oh we've been successful, we've got orders and new clients lined up, but no, I won't hire more workers, more managers, and turn our flat org structure into a hierarchy, because I want my employees to have a sustainable and fulfilling work experience, and because I want my current customers to enjoy the usual, stable service or product quality". Only a unicorn would not perceive saying "no" to growth as leaving money on the table.
Reality is - if you’re an American and got into tech and are working for well paying tech companies, you’re not leaving and there’s no escape unless you fatFIRE. This is why FIRE is so big among the Silicon Valley tech crowd. Everyone knows. What’s the alternative for an American tech worker (primarily the people who read HN) who wants to stay where they live, keep a similar quality of living, and not work in toxic faang-esque H1B factories? There ain’t one.
Well, I live in Central-Eastern Europe, and even though I 100% agree with the problem statement, the proposed solutions sound unrealistic to me as well ;)
If you want to leave tech you should save up for 4-5 years of expenses to accomodate for under-employment, downsize your lifestyle to fit a household income under 80k, and then reskill in another field.
I have tried to move away incrementally from the tech industry by working less and consulting, and it is not effective. There's simply nothing else you can do that pays as well for so little effort. It draws you back in like a tarpit because there's always more work to do. Committing to a clean break and immersing yourself in a new field seems like the better approach.
Assuming that you save 1/3rd of your monthly net income, and spend only 2/3rds of it on expenses -- which I believe is already beyond what most people can do --, and that you are already frugal (which means that you don't have easily cuttable expenses [*]), you'd need to save twice as long as you planned to live off of those savings. If you wanted a buffer for 4-5 years, you'd need to pinch every penny for 8-10 years, and do that -- presumably -- while you are in your thirties, and raising kids. This can work, but mostly as an exception, I think.
[*] I don't consider expenses that improve health and lifestyle "cuttable" -- organic food, locally produced meat, food supplements / vitamins, therapy, dentist, gym / sports, etc. I've recently learned that even holiday trips (which are insanely expensive, assuming you are not from the US, to the point of being financially injustifiable) are crucial for mental and marital health.
If you don't consider any expenses "cuttable" you're not downsizing. Especially taking expensive vacations? I travel a couple times a year domestically by driving and it's very manageable.
This may vary from country to country, but in my part of the world, public institutions are mostly dysfunctional, political, nepotistic, filled with cronies and people with negative productivity. And then there's one bright eyed idealist who actually does most of the work until they realize they're being taken advantage of, learn their lesson and starts behaving the same (or leave for private sector).
> Joining a tech co-operative
ie. become a freelancer or start/join a consultancy; sure, but after a couple dozen projects, it starts feeling the same as a corpo job.
> Joining a tech NGO
Again, may vary from country to country. Here NGOs are incredibly political things and desperately dependent on continous outside funding (the two are interconnected). You'll switch office politics for NGO politics.
> Working for a union or a party
Politicians and union representatives are some of the last people I'd ever want to socialize with.
> Becoming a mentor or a teacher
That's nice, but can you live on that salary?
> Becoming a techno-political hustler
For an article that starts with one's quest to find a more meaningful job, this is about as far removed from it as "used car salesman that exclusively uses bitcoin payday loans financing".
At the same time, some of the more promising alternatives that crop up at local IT watering holes are floor tiling, plumbing, roofing, ... All honest work, good pay, visible results, and zero bullshit.
Agree with your points about public institutions and NGOs. Where I live, having NGO projects on your CV could even work against you (in case you were looking for a government job, down the line).
> floor tiling, plumbing, roofing, ... All honest work, good pay, visible results, and zero bullshit
I'm not sure. First, you need to be good at it. "Leaving tech" does not necessarily imply "good at trades". Second, you need to be very flexible in the quality vs. delivery time tradeoff (and personally I find that really difficult). Third, I'm not keen on talking with clients directly. Fourth, even if there's a general contractor, representatives of the different trades always blame each other, when things go wrong, or the schedule slips.
First thing to do is get used to a much lower salary. Mostly kidding but channeling how often I see sentiments online of people saying they want to leave tech and then balk at the salaries normal people have.
Almost every complaint I see about working in tech is 90% applicable to any industry. The problem in every company is other people. Some are greedy, selfish, dishonest. Some mean well but market forces demand unsavory practices. You won't escape it by trading a keyboard for a hammer or a pastry bag or whatever.
You have to either have a specific target in mind. Like you actually love doing some other thing and want it to be your career. Or, as the article lays out, just keep doing tech someplace more fulfilling.
Having spent time in tech in both government and nonprofit space, I can tell you the organizations are not very different from corporate ones. Day-to-day frustrations are very similar. You have to just take heart in doing something constructive for the public good.
I’m thinking what I could offer for the world if there was no computers or even electricity. I don’t have too many ideas and this article didn’t help.
To continue working without coding, while still making use of coding skills and experience, I suppose roles like CTO or technical project lead might be suitable?
The meme with all of the buzzwords around Shinji suggests that the author doesn't really understand that that stifing environment is due to bureaucracy rather than working in tech.
You can be in a large non-tech company (or government agency, technical or not - source: I survived one) and have the same miserable experience. You can work in a small tech company and get very little of it.
The idea that you'll escape by "Working for a public institution" is goofy.
One of the happiest periods of my life was when I was working for a non-profit tech company building software for humanitarian work (human rights documentation, labour law compliance, election monitoring etc), after working a full decade in capital markets trading systems. Half the salary for 2 years, did a number on my savings, but it recharged me enough to return to the industry, with expertise in a new tech stack. It was in fact during this period I became a regular reader/contributor to HN.
I understand that this option may not be available to all. I suppose my point is that you may not actually need to leave the industry permanently. Just long enough for you to recharge and find a way to repel the BS without psychological trauma (and without causing psychological trauma to others).
There are so many problems to solve. I always like to post these lists when an article like this is posted on HN and the discussion ensues about what feels good to work on. There are so many problems that need your help to solve.
My father always told me: "you will have a vocation, and an avocation. They are separate activities." What he was telling me is that I should find a job, and a hobby. And they should be separate.
I believe that there has been a severe injustice done to students over the past 30-40 years by instructing them to find a job that is their passion. That's putting too much pressure on a person; and it’s largely unachievable.
It's okay to make money doing one thing, and enjoy yourself by accomplishing something great doing another.
> It's okay to make money doing one thing, and enjoy yourself by accomplishing something great doing another.
Maybe.
First, the thing done for money (or the way it is done) shouldn't at least be at odds with your identity (and/or work ethic).
Second, if you consider how large a proportion of our waking lives are spent at work, you start questioning whether just "neutral" is good enough, for a job.
Considering the scale and frequency of layoffs across the board and the difficulty of finding a new job for many, you could just...run out the clock and wait for the inevitable?
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[ 4.7 ms ] story [ 70.1 ms ] threadKinda related.
I think we need a monthly "who wants to be fired" thread where we share our progress on this.
Practically every recommendation is also a tech job, its just not "big tech" where you have very little real decision making power.
Tech itself is not the issue here - tech being filled with high paying jobs where you effectively work on issues that directly damage humanity is the issue. And after you have a high paying job its hard to justify leaving it, and every other similarly paying job is basically the same thing in a different package.
Well, a lot of them. Not every. There are jobs at big tech companies where you work on good things benefiting society, like improving security in open-source, or developing a lot of the OSS tools out there. (Think Project Zero, or many of your favorite major OSS project, which are developed by engineers at big tech.) They are not nearly as common as other roles obviously, but they do exist, and it's worth at least attempting to get them.
A thousand times, yes.
And even if you find ethical jobs (e.g., paid-for and ethically committed open source work), they are much-much more difficult to do well. Distrust and secrecy are absolutely rampant between you and your (inevitably proprietary) partners; reverse engineering plays a central role. It's a warzone -- and the constant fighting, battling, against measures put in place by other humans, just takes the will to live out of me.
It should be possible for well-paying, ethical, interesting, and co-operative jobs to exist. They only exist as exceptions.
I don't think such a thing exists (unfortunately). Show me a business leader that says, "oh we've been successful, we've got orders and new clients lined up, but no, I won't hire more workers, more managers, and turn our flat org structure into a hierarchy, because I want my employees to have a sustainable and fulfilling work experience, and because I want my current customers to enjoy the usual, stable service or product quality". Only a unicorn would not perceive saying "no" to growth as leaving money on the table.
Reality is - if you’re an American and got into tech and are working for well paying tech companies, you’re not leaving and there’s no escape unless you fatFIRE. This is why FIRE is so big among the Silicon Valley tech crowd. Everyone knows. What’s the alternative for an American tech worker (primarily the people who read HN) who wants to stay where they live, keep a similar quality of living, and not work in toxic faang-esque H1B factories? There ain’t one.
Well, I live in Central-Eastern Europe, and even though I 100% agree with the problem statement, the proposed solutions sound unrealistic to me as well ;)
I have tried to move away incrementally from the tech industry by working less and consulting, and it is not effective. There's simply nothing else you can do that pays as well for so little effort. It draws you back in like a tarpit because there's always more work to do. Committing to a clean break and immersing yourself in a new field seems like the better approach.
[*] I don't consider expenses that improve health and lifestyle "cuttable" -- organic food, locally produced meat, food supplements / vitamins, therapy, dentist, gym / sports, etc. I've recently learned that even holiday trips (which are insanely expensive, assuming you are not from the US, to the point of being financially injustifiable) are crucial for mental and marital health.
> Working for a public institution
This may vary from country to country, but in my part of the world, public institutions are mostly dysfunctional, political, nepotistic, filled with cronies and people with negative productivity. And then there's one bright eyed idealist who actually does most of the work until they realize they're being taken advantage of, learn their lesson and starts behaving the same (or leave for private sector).
> Joining a tech co-operative
ie. become a freelancer or start/join a consultancy; sure, but after a couple dozen projects, it starts feeling the same as a corpo job.
> Joining a tech NGO
Again, may vary from country to country. Here NGOs are incredibly political things and desperately dependent on continous outside funding (the two are interconnected). You'll switch office politics for NGO politics.
> Working for a union or a party
Politicians and union representatives are some of the last people I'd ever want to socialize with.
> Becoming a mentor or a teacher
That's nice, but can you live on that salary?
> Becoming a techno-political hustler
For an article that starts with one's quest to find a more meaningful job, this is about as far removed from it as "used car salesman that exclusively uses bitcoin payday loans financing".
At the same time, some of the more promising alternatives that crop up at local IT watering holes are floor tiling, plumbing, roofing, ... All honest work, good pay, visible results, and zero bullshit.
> floor tiling, plumbing, roofing, ... All honest work, good pay, visible results, and zero bullshit
I'm not sure. First, you need to be good at it. "Leaving tech" does not necessarily imply "good at trades". Second, you need to be very flexible in the quality vs. delivery time tradeoff (and personally I find that really difficult). Third, I'm not keen on talking with clients directly. Fourth, even if there's a general contractor, representatives of the different trades always blame each other, when things go wrong, or the schedule slips.
Problem: How to leave tech. Solution: Enter tech!
The public sector may provide more relaxed environments but it isn't clear that you will work on more meaningful problems.
You have to either have a specific target in mind. Like you actually love doing some other thing and want it to be your career. Or, as the article lays out, just keep doing tech someplace more fulfilling.
Having spent time in tech in both government and nonprofit space, I can tell you the organizations are not very different from corporate ones. Day-to-day frustrations are very similar. You have to just take heart in doing something constructive for the public good.
To continue working without coding, while still making use of coding skills and experience, I suppose roles like CTO or technical project lead might be suitable?
You can be in a large non-tech company (or government agency, technical or not - source: I survived one) and have the same miserable experience. You can work in a small tech company and get very little of it.
The idea that you'll escape by "Working for a public institution" is goofy.
I agree. Where I live, "public institution" is code for "infinite inefficiency and corruption".
Ask HN: Is anyone else just done with the industry?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44393304
Ask HN: I don't want to work in software anymore. Where do I go?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43836353
Ask HN: Facing unemployment – what now?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44008554
Ask HN: Decided I no longer want to be a SWE – what next?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44110944
I understand that this option may not be available to all. I suppose my point is that you may not actually need to leave the industry permanently. Just long enough for you to recharge and find a way to repel the BS without psychological trauma (and without causing psychological trauma to others).
Alas, as you say, this is mostly pure luck. And not sustainable over the longer term, financially speaking.
There are so many problems to solve. I always like to post these lists when an article like this is posted on HN and the discussion ensues about what feels good to work on. There are so many problems that need your help to solve.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_global_issues
My father always told me: "you will have a vocation, and an avocation. They are separate activities." What he was telling me is that I should find a job, and a hobby. And they should be separate.
I believe that there has been a severe injustice done to students over the past 30-40 years by instructing them to find a job that is their passion. That's putting too much pressure on a person; and it’s largely unachievable.
It's okay to make money doing one thing, and enjoy yourself by accomplishing something great doing another.
Maybe.
First, the thing done for money (or the way it is done) shouldn't at least be at odds with your identity (and/or work ethic).
Second, if you consider how large a proportion of our waking lives are spent at work, you start questioning whether just "neutral" is good enough, for a job.