I own a Switch 1, and the other day I wanted to play on the train, but the battery was low. I figured "no problem, I can connect it to my laptop and let it charge off is battery".
Nope. The MacBook Pro started charging off the Switch instead.
Interesting. I saw some of their video about this the other day. The video gives the impression that Nintendo is intentionally not supporting external monitors that aren’t the official switch dock.
But the conclusion on this article seems to lean more towards that it could be a mistake or bug. I guess that might be the case - didn’t they screw up USB-C on the switch 1? I know it’s an incredibly complex standard.
I guess the only way to know if it’s intentional or a bug, is if Nintendo updates the switch to fix it. As Linus said in his video, the Nintendo USB isn’t very “universal”.
Some labels/descriptions could use a bit more polish. For example in test 8 "Averages 15 W delivered to the Switch at maximum." - I kinda see what they mean, but that's a very awkward way to phrase it. The maximum is over 20W. There's a few spikes that go over. I guess that's the maximum for a moving average? For their labs, they could be more precise.
> The inability for most docks to support the Switch 2 may not be malicious from Nintendo. It might just be a poor or lazy implementation of the USB-C specification
From the verge [0], 2 months ago:
> When I analyze the conversation between the Nintendo Switch 2 and its dock, I can see the two devices begin speaking in Nintendo’s own flavor of “vendor defined” language early in the conversation, before they sign off on any video output. And then, seemingly before the dock confirms that it’s engaged video-out, they send over 30 proprietary “unstructured” messages to one another.
> […]
> According to Antank, which says it checked with its chip supplier, that hexadecimal string “is indeed the current key being used by Nintendo.” My other sources are less sure.
I'm pretty sure lttl's conclusion is plain wrong. It is not JUST lazy USB-C implementation, but a purposefully designed special proprietary protocol on top of USB-C
> Our monitoring of the interactions with the USB-C monitor shows that the negotiation does not even get to the point of the Vendor Defined Messages(VDM) where the dock would theoretically have to send the correct responses.
There's a lot of misunderstandings about USB PD communication, in particular Vendor Defined Messages. The LTT video kept making this mistake, and mixing in misunderstandings around messages to the eMarker chip itself (SOP'). It was a painful watch.
Vendor Defined Messages have is part of any normal PD exchange, as they're simply anything that isn't defined by the PD spec itself. You'll see VDMs when connecting any device supporting more than just dumb charging, as it's used for all sorts of things like DisplayPort, Thunderbolt, eMarker identification, etc. - stuff we'd expect ehre.
The quote from Antak refers to just a single, possibly/likely proprietary, message. This could be to ID the dock on the basis of e.g. rejecting the switch 1 dock should one cram it in, or to reject switch 1 dongles. Maybe it's Nintendo speak for "dock capabilities: cooling", with the switch having no mode for docked gaming with reduced performance without cooling.
Intentional incompatibility, yes, but it's 1 message of an unknown type within bog standard USB-PD, not a "vendor defined lanugage" or "over 30 proprietary messages".
The Nintendo switch was the poster child for “don’t standardise USB C, standardise the charging protocol”, and I used it as the poster child for why I disagree with USBC being a faux-standard
Given the Verge seems to have mixed info from their sources and LTT is pulling their punches, it seems like it is at the very least not obvious that this is what they're doing. And at least one third-party seems to work with it, so it's plausible that it is not a cryptographically enforced incompatibility.
> > The inability for most docks to support the Switch 2 may not be malicious from Nintendo. It might just be a poor or lazy implementation of the USB-C specification
> I'm pretty sure lttl's conclusion is plain wrong.
They stated it MAY be lazy, it MAY be intentional. They declined to state a singular conclusion so I 'm not sure how they're wrong. I think maybe you feel they're saying it's not, but they're actually saying "we don't have conclusive proof either way, but we could see either being true given Nintendo's history of laziness at some times and maliciousness at other times."
I don't think it's a coincidence that both Switch 1 and Switch 2's usb-c compliance is a shambling wreck. It's pretty clear to me it's a good way to sow doubt and disability in the industry of third-party docks while maintaining perfect plausible deniability.
I tried to use a USB-C HDMI dongle I had. But I assumed it was because the switch 2 was looking for something that could deliver enough power and actively cool it, like the first party dock does.
Just one more reason not to buy a Switch 2. Seriously, Nintendo has become worse than Apple when it comes to treating their customers. I own hundreds of Nintendo games and every console they ever made, sometimes in multiples. But when I saw of all the shit they were trying to pull with the Switch 2 I decided I was done with that company for good.
Back in COVID times, when I had all the time in the world, my Switch got bricked after I charged it using my laptop charger. Nintendo refused to honor its warranty, citing some mumbo jumbo about proprietary USB-C hardware. Fortunately, we have pretty good consumer protection laws here in Australia By the end of an entire two month saga, they sent me a brand new Switch.
I always did think it was odd that a USB-C cable that wasnt Nintendo could break my Switch.
Switch 2 seems to be more up to standard. I was able to charge it with a normal phone charger and also the Switch 2 charger seems to work with everything else unlike the one for Switch 1. Fortunately I never bricked anything with that, but it just never worked with anything other than the console.
Back in that time, my switch broke twice. And I eventually find out. If I am using one of the e-marked wire with the switch, the port get destroyed immediately. Every single device in my room works with that wire exactly like it should. Except for switch. Their typec port is so broken, and not broke in a safe way.
They did this to micro sd cards on the first switch. Looks like they found another way. Nintendo isn’t customer friendly. Gone are the days of the N64 and gone are the days of Nintendo pushing the boundaries of fun and entertainment.
Now, they make underpowered handhelds for kids with proprietary dongles like Apple in hopes of trapping their customers to their platform.
Weird comparison. With N64 everything was proprietary. The power brick, the memory card, the controllers. With Switch a lot more follows standards. USB-C charging. SD for storage. Bluetooth for controllers and headsets.
I don’t see a single reason to think Nintendo of that time would do anything differently.
The reason for not accepting whatever dock/adapter seems pretty good in this case. The dock should have active cooling to conform to user expectations. And there’s no signs that Nintendo will prevent anyone from making a dock that supports it as long as it follows the procedure to confirm that it has active cooling.
If USB consortium cared about being consumer friendly, they would have mandated that USB cables clearly mark their capabilities, and require that every cable must transmit data.
Instead we have this mess where you don't know whether a cable is good for laptop charging, and whether that same cable can be used for data in addition to charging. (skipping that data wire saves a few cents, that sounds like a great idea!)
So nothing will come out of them regarding Nintendo's behavior.
With the behaviour Nintendo has been 'in the last few years' - I no longer will purchase Nintendo consoles.
We purchased a Switch and the kids have enjoyed many games on it. After reading other comments on here, I am surprised my Switch has not been bricked - and I am not doing anything dodgy at all.
As for the Switch 2. I was showing the announcement videos with the kids - they did not look excited for it. As for me, I was smirking when they were not revealing the price of the console and games. I knew something was up. Within hours there were angry youtube channels blasting their prices.
I am not even getting into Nintendo's legal behaviours over ROMs, youtube channels, or games like Palworld.
"Oh.. that thing you do in this game... Yeah... we have a patent for that!"
Of course, every game Nintendo creates are completely new ideas. Sure, I give Nintendo credit with their involvement in video game history - but I am sure "new features" in Mario Kart World are inspired from other games..... but if you do something Nintendo consider is their idea (especially patented) - they will throw money at you *towards their legal department*
Nintendo are not a family-based games company. They lost that title some time, now. Unless they really change their ways, I wont buy Nintendo again. I do not support their practices. Sure we might not have Mario Kart World or Zelda or other Nintendo specific titles - but a decent PC have many, many great games of the last 30 years - and they will run faster, smoother, etc.
> Sure we might not have Mario Kart World or Zelda or other Nintendo specific titles
Well, that's why people buy Nintendo consoles. You don't buy a Switch 2, you buy the device needed to play Mario Kart and Zelda, whatever it is.
In general, consoles are defined by their games, they are not general purpose machines and everything is to be seen from this angle. Hardwares specs don't matter, what matter is how well the games you want to play run. It is even more so with Nintendo as they have generally less powerful hardware with some of the best games as exclusive licenses.
If people want to spend £400 on a console, as well as £40-£100 on Nintendo games is their choice. I am sure there are many people who purchased a Switch 2 on launch day and now regret it, likely due to Nintendo's practices. If anything, it likely has made more people aware of Nintendo's behaviour in the last number of years.
With this, despite the fact Switch 2 might sell well this generation - I think Nintendo need to be very cautious next time. We shall see.
Personally, and I am not poor, but I think it's expensive to purchase Switch 2 + games when I legally do not own them. You are getting what seems to be known as a Revocable License.
This means many things. Its not just Nintendo cancelling or bricking your Switch 2 when you do (or presumably) something naughty... it means Nitendo can officially push for end of life to the console itself. While Nintendo may not do this to the Switch 2, servers for games eventually will. Paying nearly £100 for a game that might stop working in 7 years... unless you pay another £500 for their next console and move it over. LOL!!!!!
It does not make sense to pay this sort of money when it blurs the lines of ownership. We can go back-and-forth on this all day, but if people have no issues and still want to buy a Switch 2 is up to them. Again.. It's is their choice and I respect that.
I have explained this issue to my kids and they understand my point of view and why I wont buy a Switch 2. Of course, if they want to buy one with their own money - they can.
The type of model Nintendo are pushing works better like a Netflix monthly subscription.. or... perhaps more comparable to XBox Game pass. They will likely do this next time. I am just interested what their monthly price will be. I am sure it will be laughable!
The older generation can see past all the BS.. but the younger generation will blindly accept it. When they get older and see the differences to their first purchase.. then they can moan like I am now. It wont matter.. as the next younger gen will rinse and repeat. The cycle continue.
To me, like many things, the best way to make a statement is with your wallet. That's all I am doing. If I am the minority then so be it. I might be pointed or laughed at - but atleast I stood by my principles.
(Its similar with Microsoft Windows license going back to the 90s. I dont own it. I purchase the right to use it. I dont agree with it, so I use Linux.)
> "The Nintendo Switch 2 only ever charges at a maximum of 15 W(as far as I can tell)."
This is already higher than stated in legal EU-compliance documents [0], where the PD-charger is required to not provide more than 12W "in order to achieve the maximum charging speed"
Also interesting[0]: "TV mode requires output power of 54 watts. This is higher than the power requirements for charging given above. This product supports USB PD fast charging and is capable of being recharged by means of wired charging at voltages up to 15 volts"
According to this, the device will obviously only use the 20V/3A mode (=60 watts) for TV mode, and will not utilize it for charging. Whereas the provided charger (NGN-01) also supports a 15V USB-PD mode which MAY be used for charging.
I assume the device will request max. 15V/1A for charging then, adding up to 15W (not sure why they state the charger should not support "more than 12W"). However, I guess at 15V the majority of power in this state is going to the device and not the battery (they only have a single battery-cell which should be charged with 5V. If they want to charge the battery, they could also request 5V/3A from the charger)...
I mean, we are already at the point where you have to put a colored tape on all your usb plugs and sockets to know which ones are compatible and which ones will brick your devices. Maybe its time to drop the "universal" aspect and go back to propietary ports?
If I have a cable that sucks, I don't bother tagging it. It just goes in the bin. If it doesn't list what its ratings are, I don't buy it. Why bother keeping cables that don't do what you need it to do? Why bother buying cables that don't fit your needs?
I'm far happier that I only have one charger in my backpack that works for practically all my portable electronics. I'm far happier I've got an extra power bank in my bag that works with one cable to charge practically all my portable electronics and can be charged by that one wall adapter. I'm far happier I have one dock cable on my desk that provides power/kvm/network to my work laptop, my personal laptop, my spouse's tablet, etc. Far better than having a dozen different cables for a dozen different devices.
> EPR even supports up to 240 W! Plenty of power for any device you'd reasonably power with USB-C.
I feel (or rather hope) we'll see more than that at some point. Being able to replace device-specific wall adapters would be a huge win. This has largely already happened for everything that needs 10 watts or less, but between that and things that actually need a lot of power (i.e. kilowatts, not watts) and/or benefit from AC (mostly motors), there's still an annoying valley of power bricks.
I especially hate the type that's hard-wired to the power plug that blocks 1-2 other outlets due to its bulk and inevitably gets lost during a move or trip to storage and back.
Hmm - I use a switch pro controller USB C -C cable to charge my Pixel 8 sometimes, and I notice that the phone often starts and stops charging while plugged in. Maybe there's some extra hardware in that cable...
So, as there are a couple of docks coming out that work with Switch 2 and have apparently reverse engineered the protocol... I wonder if some company could make a small dongle that just sits between the switch and my monitor, or my USB-C docking station, and fixes the communication.
For a DIY solution, protocol wise it doesn't seem too complicated, but electronically USB-C or HDMI is out of reach for most hobbyists. And I assume most USB-C interface chips you can get aren't programmable to the degree neccessary...
I have a different random 5-letter company name version of this one [0] (the one I bought [1]) that LTT tested. I was nervous after remembering stories about Switch 1 “USB-C” shenanigans but at $28 (vs $124 for the original dock) I decided to roll the dice.
As far as working as a replacement dock for the original, it does the job very nicely while being smaller and easier to use overall (IMHO). At $28/ea I can afford to have a dock on every TV I would even consider playing my Switch on at less than the cost of 1 official dock.
The LTT video was painful to watch. I don’t know much about USB or USB-PD, but it was clear they didn’t either. It felt like they were just rambling with some vaguely technical jargon, with no actual understanding.
That means the monitor tries to change its own role from USB host (which it defaulted to because it's the power source) to USB gadget. And the Switch rejects the request because it sees itself as the USB gadget (for example to exchange data when you connect it to a PC).
The article itself also says "Our monitoring of the interactions with the USB-C monitor shows that the negotiation does not even get to the point of the Vendor Defined Messages(VDM)" so I see no hint of foul play by Nintendo. (And why would they? They are not in the business of selling USB monitors.)
My guess would be that the connection failure is due to a firmware bug in the monitor. But I am also heavily biased here because my last Asus screen had A LOT of firmware issues.
I guess hardware vendors are allowed to make USBC devices that goes outside the USBC specs? Although this seems to be within the USBC spec?
Would be interesting if future hardware standards would not allow to be licensed as "within standard" if they break a few rules.
I could see some hardware vendors using their own implementation of a standard just to fool customers into believing it supports a standard while there are exceptions.
Isn't that what happened to bluetooth?
I am not an apple user, but isn't apple also abusing hardware standards to encourage clients to buy its products?
48 comments
[ 501 ms ] story [ 2628 ms ] threadI'll be curious to see how their testing and data compares to gamersnexus testing and what their first catching a manufacturer's lies event will be.
Nope. The MacBook Pro started charging off the Switch instead.
But the conclusion on this article seems to lean more towards that it could be a mistake or bug. I guess that might be the case - didn’t they screw up USB-C on the switch 1? I know it’s an incredibly complex standard.
I guess the only way to know if it’s intentional or a bug, is if Nintendo updates the switch to fix it. As Linus said in his video, the Nintendo USB isn’t very “universal”.
> The inability for most docks to support the Switch 2 may not be malicious from Nintendo. It might just be a poor or lazy implementation of the USB-C specification
From the verge [0], 2 months ago:
> When I analyze the conversation between the Nintendo Switch 2 and its dock, I can see the two devices begin speaking in Nintendo’s own flavor of “vendor defined” language early in the conversation, before they sign off on any video output. And then, seemingly before the dock confirms that it’s engaged video-out, they send over 30 proprietary “unstructured” messages to one another.
> […]
> According to Antank, which says it checked with its chip supplier, that hexadecimal string “is indeed the current key being used by Nintendo.” My other sources are less sure.
I'm pretty sure lttl's conclusion is plain wrong. It is not JUST lazy USB-C implementation, but a purposefully designed special proprietary protocol on top of USB-C
[0] https://www.theverge.com/report/695915/switch-2-usb-c-third-...
Vendor Defined Messages have is part of any normal PD exchange, as they're simply anything that isn't defined by the PD spec itself. You'll see VDMs when connecting any device supporting more than just dumb charging, as it's used for all sorts of things like DisplayPort, Thunderbolt, eMarker identification, etc. - stuff we'd expect ehre.
The quote from Antak refers to just a single, possibly/likely proprietary, message. This could be to ID the dock on the basis of e.g. rejecting the switch 1 dock should one cram it in, or to reject switch 1 dongles. Maybe it's Nintendo speak for "dock capabilities: cooling", with the switch having no mode for docked gaming with reduced performance without cooling.
Intentional incompatibility, yes, but it's 1 message of an unknown type within bog standard USB-PD, not a "vendor defined lanugage" or "over 30 proprietary messages".
And here we are again.
They stated it MAY be lazy, it MAY be intentional. They declined to state a singular conclusion so I 'm not sure how they're wrong. I think maybe you feel they're saying it's not, but they're actually saying "we don't have conclusive proof either way, but we could see either being true given Nintendo's history of laziness at some times and maliciousness at other times."
I always did think it was odd that a USB-C cable that wasnt Nintendo could break my Switch.
Now, they make underpowered handhelds for kids with proprietary dongles like Apple in hopes of trapping their customers to their platform.
No thanks.
What do you mean? From what I know it was bog-standard microSD(HC/XC) with the maximum supported speed being UHS-I with nothing proprietary.
I don’t see a single reason to think Nintendo of that time would do anything differently.
The reason for not accepting whatever dock/adapter seems pretty good in this case. The dock should have active cooling to conform to user expectations. And there’s no signs that Nintendo will prevent anyone from making a dock that supports it as long as it follows the procedure to confirm that it has active cooling.
Still, don't expect anything good to come from them on that front.
Instead we have this mess where you don't know whether a cable is good for laptop charging, and whether that same cable can be used for data in addition to charging. (skipping that data wire saves a few cents, that sounds like a great idea!)
So nothing will come out of them regarding Nintendo's behavior.
We purchased a Switch and the kids have enjoyed many games on it. After reading other comments on here, I am surprised my Switch has not been bricked - and I am not doing anything dodgy at all.
As for the Switch 2. I was showing the announcement videos with the kids - they did not look excited for it. As for me, I was smirking when they were not revealing the price of the console and games. I knew something was up. Within hours there were angry youtube channels blasting their prices.
I am not even getting into Nintendo's legal behaviours over ROMs, youtube channels, or games like Palworld.
"Oh.. that thing you do in this game... Yeah... we have a patent for that!"
Of course, every game Nintendo creates are completely new ideas. Sure, I give Nintendo credit with their involvement in video game history - but I am sure "new features" in Mario Kart World are inspired from other games..... but if you do something Nintendo consider is their idea (especially patented) - they will throw money at you *towards their legal department*
Nintendo are not a family-based games company. They lost that title some time, now. Unless they really change their ways, I wont buy Nintendo again. I do not support their practices. Sure we might not have Mario Kart World or Zelda or other Nintendo specific titles - but a decent PC have many, many great games of the last 30 years - and they will run faster, smoother, etc.
This Dock <--> USB-C drama is just laughable.
Well, that's why people buy Nintendo consoles. You don't buy a Switch 2, you buy the device needed to play Mario Kart and Zelda, whatever it is.
In general, consoles are defined by their games, they are not general purpose machines and everything is to be seen from this angle. Hardwares specs don't matter, what matter is how well the games you want to play run. It is even more so with Nintendo as they have generally less powerful hardware with some of the best games as exclusive licenses.
With this, despite the fact Switch 2 might sell well this generation - I think Nintendo need to be very cautious next time. We shall see.
Personally, and I am not poor, but I think it's expensive to purchase Switch 2 + games when I legally do not own them. You are getting what seems to be known as a Revocable License.
This means many things. Its not just Nintendo cancelling or bricking your Switch 2 when you do (or presumably) something naughty... it means Nitendo can officially push for end of life to the console itself. While Nintendo may not do this to the Switch 2, servers for games eventually will. Paying nearly £100 for a game that might stop working in 7 years... unless you pay another £500 for their next console and move it over. LOL!!!!!
It does not make sense to pay this sort of money when it blurs the lines of ownership. We can go back-and-forth on this all day, but if people have no issues and still want to buy a Switch 2 is up to them. Again.. It's is their choice and I respect that.
I have explained this issue to my kids and they understand my point of view and why I wont buy a Switch 2. Of course, if they want to buy one with their own money - they can.
The type of model Nintendo are pushing works better like a Netflix monthly subscription.. or... perhaps more comparable to XBox Game pass. They will likely do this next time. I am just interested what their monthly price will be. I am sure it will be laughable!
The older generation can see past all the BS.. but the younger generation will blindly accept it. When they get older and see the differences to their first purchase.. then they can moan like I am now. It wont matter.. as the next younger gen will rinse and repeat. The cycle continue.
To me, like many things, the best way to make a statement is with your wallet. That's all I am doing. If I am the minority then so be it. I might be pointed or laughed at - but atleast I stood by my principles.
(Its similar with Microsoft Windows license going back to the 90s. I dont own it. I purchase the right to use it. I dont agree with it, so I use Linux.)
This is already higher than stated in legal EU-compliance documents [0], where the PD-charger is required to not provide more than 12W "in order to achieve the maximum charging speed"
Also interesting[0]: "TV mode requires output power of 54 watts. This is higher than the power requirements for charging given above. This product supports USB PD fast charging and is capable of being recharged by means of wired charging at voltages up to 15 volts"
According to this, the device will obviously only use the 20V/3A mode (=60 watts) for TV mode, and will not utilize it for charging. Whereas the provided charger (NGN-01) also supports a 15V USB-PD mode which MAY be used for charging.
I assume the device will request max. 15V/1A for charging then, adding up to 15W (not sure why they state the charger should not support "more than 12W"). However, I guess at 15V the majority of power in this state is going to the device and not the battery (they only have a single battery-cell which should be charged with 5V. If they want to charge the battery, they could also request 5V/3A from the charger)...
[0] https://www.nintendo.com/eu/media/downloads/support_1/ninten...
I'm far happier that I only have one charger in my backpack that works for practically all my portable electronics. I'm far happier I've got an extra power bank in my bag that works with one cable to charge practically all my portable electronics and can be charged by that one wall adapter. I'm far happier I have one dock cable on my desk that provides power/kvm/network to my work laptop, my personal laptop, my spouse's tablet, etc. Far better than having a dozen different cables for a dozen different devices.
I feel (or rather hope) we'll see more than that at some point. Being able to replace device-specific wall adapters would be a huge win. This has largely already happened for everything that needs 10 watts or less, but between that and things that actually need a lot of power (i.e. kilowatts, not watts) and/or benefit from AC (mostly motors), there's still an annoying valley of power bricks.
I especially hate the type that's hard-wired to the power plug that blocks 1-2 other outlets due to its bulk and inevitably gets lost during a move or trip to storage and back.
For a DIY solution, protocol wise it doesn't seem too complicated, but electronically USB-C or HDMI is out of reach for most hobbyists. And I assume most USB-C interface chips you can get aren't programmable to the degree neccessary...
As far as working as a replacement dock for the original, it does the job very nicely while being smaller and easier to use overall (IMHO). At $28/ea I can afford to have a dock on every TV I would even consider playing my Switch on at less than the cost of 1 official dock.
[0] https://antank.net/products/s3-max
[1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FCF8PV2H
That means the monitor tries to change its own role from USB host (which it defaulted to because it's the power source) to USB gadget. And the Switch rejects the request because it sees itself as the USB gadget (for example to exchange data when you connect it to a PC).
The article itself also says "Our monitoring of the interactions with the USB-C monitor shows that the negotiation does not even get to the point of the Vendor Defined Messages(VDM)" so I see no hint of foul play by Nintendo. (And why would they? They are not in the business of selling USB monitors.)
My guess would be that the connection failure is due to a firmware bug in the monitor. But I am also heavily biased here because my last Asus screen had A LOT of firmware issues.
Would be interesting if future hardware standards would not allow to be licensed as "within standard" if they break a few rules.
I could see some hardware vendors using their own implementation of a standard just to fool customers into believing it supports a standard while there are exceptions.
Isn't that what happened to bluetooth?
I am not an apple user, but isn't apple also abusing hardware standards to encourage clients to buy its products?