I am concerned about the public reacting aggressively agaisnt the lock company owner amd his family. The guy is definitely a toxic bully, but he was indeed violently harrassed by filing a lawsuit, however unjust it was.
The correct support for a just cause must have been constructive: providing financial support for the defendant, public manifestation campaign, professional lobbying, etc
Although this time I agree with the defendant cause, the response by the public was as toxic bullying as the plaintiff, only stronger.
Someone seriously needs to be taken to task for filing a false DMCA. DMCA is just another term for SLAPP these days. If anyone is a lawyer, they could still be despite retracting the case?
It's probably a good thing for Proven that they didn't get into this dispute the LockPickingLawyer instead. He'd wind up owning their company in the counter-suit...
This guy shims a $100+ lock in 10 seconds with a liquid death can, all without speaking in the video, just replays and then destroyed their claims and GTFO. Absolutely masterful.
These kinds of results seem all too common. Like, why? Are companies just too used to using their general business attorneys for it, and those attorneys are just ignorant? Hungry for extra billable hours?
Back in 2007, I published the first YouTube bypass of the Master Lock #175 (very common 4-digit code lock), using a paperclip.
After the video reached 1.5M views (over a couple years), the video was eventually demonetized (no official reason given). I suspect there was a similarly-frivolous DMCA / claim, but at that point in my life I didn't have any money (was worth negative) so I just accepted YouTube's ruling.
Eventually shut down the account, not wanting to help thieves bypass one of the most-common utility locks around — but definitely am in a position now where I understand that videos like mine and McNally's force manufacturers to actually improve their locks' securities/mechanisms.
It is lovely now to see that the tolerances on the #175 have been tightened enough that a paperclip no longer defeats the lock (at least non-destructively); but thin high-tensile picks still do the trick (of bypassing the lock) via the exact same mechanism.
Locks keep honest people honest, but to claim Master's products high security is inherently dishonest (e.g. in their advertising). Thievery is about ease of opportunity; if I were stealing from a jobsite with multiple lockboxes, the ones with Master locks would be attacked first (particularly wafer cylinders).
You have not ever been on a large enough jobsite, then.
It is impossible to attack the shackle, due to the recessed nature of the locking mechanisms. A torch might work... blasting out the keyway.
But on IBEW jobsites each lockbox contains around $10,000 of tools, within; most thefts are from other on-site trades, and lock-picking means you can blame it on the electricians since there's no signs of forced entry (I'm sure some of the apprentices do steal, particularly the lowly-compensated first semester "greenies").
Someone : “Sucks to see how many people take everything they see online for face value,” one Proven employee wrote. “Sounds like a bunch of liberals lol.”
The company : Proven also had its lawyers file “multiple” DMCA takedown notices against the McNally video, claiming that its use of Proven’s promo video was copyright infringement.
When did facts and enlightenment started to be for "liberals lol" ?
Freedom of speech based on facts should be universal.
If you don't know him already, I highly recommend videos by LockPickingLawyer — he routinely destroys bogus claims of various companies within seconds. It's quite entertaining to see how little security you actually get from most locks.
The most absurd thing is the original video response from the company was good, and with a very compelling argument: their customers never saw shimming in the field. Their user base don't need shimming resistance: security needs to be adequate, not perfect. And they follow-up by presenting options about people requiring the lock to be shim-proof.
Granted, in this day and age, it's a disgrace to still make locks that can be shimmed. Especially when the shim-proof alternatives they show just have an additional notch to catch the shim.
I wonder how many stories like this are caused simply because a corporate lawyer is looking for some work to do, and maybe to meet some kind of internal KPI.
> Under questioning, however, one of Proven’s employees admitted that he had been able to duplicate McNally’s technique, leading to the question from McNally’s lawyer: “When you did it yourself, did it occur to you for one moment that maybe the best thing to do, instead of file a lawsuit, was to fix [the lock]?”
Sometimes a single question tells you how the entire case is going to go.
> On July 7, the company dismissed the lawsuit against McNally instead.
> Proven also made a highly unusual request: Would the judge please seal almost the entire court record—including the request to seal?
Tough at first then running away with the tail between their legs. Typical bullying behavior.
> but Proven complained about a “pattern of intimidation and harassment by individuals influenced by Defendant McNally’s content.”
They have to know it's generated by their own lawsuit and how they approached it, right? They can't be that oblivious to turn around and say "Judge, look at all the craziness this generated, we just have to seal the records!". It's like an ice-cream cone that licks itself.
> the case became a classic example of the Streisand Effect, in which the attempt to censor information can instead call attention to it.
A constant reminder to keep the people who don't know what they are doing (including the owners of the company!) from the social media.
One thing Proven might have done is to analyze the attack. Then see if the lock could be improved to prevent it. Offer exchanges for the old locks (most of which are unlikely to be requested). Instead they resort to Lawyers, refuse to solve the problem and waste everyones time and money.
> In the end, Proven’s lawsuit likely cost the company serious time and cash—and generated little but bad publicity.
There's no such thing as bad publicity. People say this for a reason. It's true. I'm willing to bet that their sales have only increased since this started.
Um...shouldn't Proven just hire Trevor McNally as a consultant or heck, make him a partner? I mean...can you imagine the next level reputation they'd have if they can adapt and make a Trevor-proof lock?
I once worked for a company that kept its passwords locked in a safe. One day, all other copies of the password were lost, and they needed it, but the safe's key could not be found.
They expensed a sledgehammer and obtained the password through physical modification of the safe using a careful application of force. Some employees complained that meant the safe wasn't... well, safe.
The security team replied "Working as Intended" - no safe is truly safe, it's just designed to slow down an attacker. At that moment, I was enlightened.
However, for good safes, there's a rating on how long it takes.[1] Ratings start at TL-15, for 15 minute resistance against hand tools. They go up to TXTL-60: torch, explosive and tool resisting for 60 minutes. Safes with these ratings will have a metal plate indicating UL testing and approval.
If there are any rated safes on Amazon, I can't find them. A real TL-30 1 cubic foot safe sells for about $2000 and weighs about 500 pounds. Amazon sells something that looks similar for about $100 and weighs about 15 pounds.
There's a separate set of ratings for fire protection, from the NFPA. Fire safes are much simpler. They have more insulating materials and less steel.
67 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 75.2 ms ] threadThe correct support for a just cause must have been constructive: providing financial support for the defendant, public manifestation campaign, professional lobbying, etc
Although this time I agree with the defendant cause, the response by the public was as toxic bullying as the plaintiff, only stronger.
After the video reached 1.5M views (over a couple years), the video was eventually demonetized (no official reason given). I suspect there was a similarly-frivolous DMCA / claim, but at that point in my life I didn't have any money (was worth negative) so I just accepted YouTube's ruling.
Eventually shut down the account, not wanting to help thieves bypass one of the most-common utility locks around — but definitely am in a position now where I understand that videos like mine and McNally's force manufacturers to actually improve their locks' securities/mechanisms.
It is lovely now to see that the tolerances on the #175 have been tightened enough that a paperclip no longer defeats the lock (at least non-destructively); but thin high-tensile picks still do the trick (of bypassing the lock) via the exact same mechanism.
Locks keep honest people honest, but to claim Master's products high security is inherently dishonest (e.g. in their advertising). Thievery is about ease of opportunity; if I were stealing from a jobsite with multiple lockboxes, the ones with Master locks would be attacked first (particularly wafer cylinders).
If you were stealing from a job site you'd just bring bolt cutters.
It is impossible to attack the shackle, due to the recessed nature of the locking mechanisms. A torch might work... blasting out the keyway.
But on IBEW jobsites each lockbox contains around $10,000 of tools, within; most thefts are from other on-site trades, and lock-picking means you can blame it on the electricians since there's no signs of forced entry (I'm sure some of the apprentices do steal, particularly the lowly-compensated first semester "greenies").
But the electricians are still paying for it.
For those interested in the actual case, here's some deeper coverage of this bruhaha including how Lee may have perjured himself during deposition.
Someone : “Sucks to see how many people take everything they see online for face value,” one Proven employee wrote. “Sounds like a bunch of liberals lol.”
The company : Proven also had its lawyers file “multiple” DMCA takedown notices against the McNally video, claiming that its use of Proven’s promo video was copyright infringement.
When did facts and enlightenment started to be for "liberals lol" ?
Freedom of speech based on facts should be universal.
I wonder if anybody tried suing him…
Granted, in this day and age, it's a disgrace to still make locks that can be shimmed. Especially when the shim-proof alternatives they show just have an additional notch to catch the shim.
Sometimes a single question tells you how the entire case is going to go.
> Proven also made a highly unusual request: Would the judge please seal almost the entire court record—including the request to seal?
Tough at first then running away with the tail between their legs. Typical bullying behavior.
> but Proven complained about a “pattern of intimidation and harassment by individuals influenced by Defendant McNally’s content.”
They have to know it's generated by their own lawsuit and how they approached it, right? They can't be that oblivious to turn around and say "Judge, look at all the craziness this generated, we just have to seal the records!". It's like an ice-cream cone that licks itself.
> the case became a classic example of the Streisand Effect, in which the attempt to censor information can instead call attention to it.
A constant reminder to keep the people who don't know what they are doing (including the owners of the company!) from the social media.
There's no such thing as bad publicity. People say this for a reason. It's true. I'm willing to bet that their sales have only increased since this started.
I'd buy it.
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/70036390/proven-industr...
They expensed a sledgehammer and obtained the password through physical modification of the safe using a careful application of force. Some employees complained that meant the safe wasn't... well, safe.
The security team replied "Working as Intended" - no safe is truly safe, it's just designed to slow down an attacker. At that moment, I was enlightened.
If there are any rated safes on Amazon, I can't find them. A real TL-30 1 cubic foot safe sells for about $2000 and weighs about 500 pounds. Amazon sells something that looks similar for about $100 and weighs about 15 pounds.
There's a separate set of ratings for fire protection, from the NFPA. Fire safes are much simpler. They have more insulating materials and less steel.
[1] https://www.vaultandsafe.com/vault-safe-classifications/
Folks come up with some super secure idea for securing my account and I think "Yeah but maybe I forget the thing ... I do still want to access it."