Most people don't understand just how mentally unwell the US population is. Of course there are one million talking to ChatGPT about suicide weekly. This is not a surprising stat at all. It's just a question of what to do about it.
At least OpenAI is trying to do something about it.
Surprised it's so low. There are 800 million users and the typical developed country has around 5±3% of the population[1] reporting at least one notable instance of suicidal feelings per year.
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[1] Anybody concerned by such figures (as one justifiably should be without further context) should note that suicidality in the population is typically the result of their best approximation of the rational mind attempting to figure out an escape from a consistently negative situation under conditions of very limited information about alternatives, as is famously expressed in the David Foster Wallace quote on the topic.
The phenomenon usually vanishes after gaining new, previously inaccessible information about potential opportunities and strategies.
I always know I have to step back when ChatGPT stops telling me "now you're on the right track!" and starts talking to me like my therapist. "I can tell you're feeling strongly right now..."
The bigger risk is that these agents actually help with ideation if you know how to get around their safety protocols. I have used it often in my bad moments and when things feel better I am terrified of how critically it helps ideate.
I talk to ChatGPT about topics I feel society isnt enlightened enough to talk about
I feel suicide is heavily misunderstood as well
People just copypasta prevention hotlines and turn their minds off from the topic
Although people have identified a subset of the population that is just impulsively considering suicide and can be deterred, it doesnt serve the other unidentified subsets who are underserved by merely distracting them. or underserved by assuming theyre wrong even
The article doesnt even mean people are considering suicide for themselves, the article says some of them are, the top comment on this thread suggests thats why theyre talking about it
The top two comments on my version of the thread are assuming that we should have a savior complex about these discussions
If I disagree or think thats not a full picture, then where would I talk about that? ChatGPT
Most people would really benefit from going to the gym.
I'm not trying to downplay serious mental illness as its absolutely real.
For many though just going to the gym several times a week or another form of serious physical exertion can make a world of difference.
Since I started taking the gym seriously again I feel like a new man. Any negative thoughts are simply gone. (The testosterone helps as well)
This is coming from someone that has zero friends and works from home and all my co-workers are offshore. Besides my wife and kids its almost total isolation. Going to the gym though leaves me feeling like I could pluck the sun from the sky.
I am not trying to be flippant here but if you feel down, give it a try, it may surprise you.
Part of the concern I have is that OpenAI is contributing to these issues implicitly by helping companies automate away jobs. Maybe in the long term, society will adapt and continue to function, but many people will struggle to get by, and I don’t think OpenAI will meaningfully help them.
Sora prompt:
viral hood clip with voiceover of people doing reckless and wild stuff at an Atlanta gas station at night; make sure to include white vagrants doing stunts and lots of gasoline spraying with fireball tricks
Resulting warning:
It sounds like you're carrying a lot right now, but you don't have to go through this alone. You can find supportive resources [here](https://
findahelpline.com)
Is the news-worthy surprise that so many people find life so horrible that they are contemplating ending it?
I really don't see that as surprising. The world and life aren't particularly pleasant things.
What would be more interesting is how effective ChatGPT is being in guiding them towards other ideas. Most suicide prevention notices are a joke - pretending that "call this hotline" means you've done your job and that's that.
No, what should instead happen is the AI try to guide them towards making their lives less shit - i.e. at least bring them towards a life of _manageable_ shitness, where they feel some hope and don't feel horrendous 24/7.
How soon until everyone has their own personal LLM? One that is… Not designed, but so much is trained to be your best friend. It learns your personality, your fears, hopes, dreams, all of that stuff, and then act like your best friend. The positive, optimistic, neutral, and objective friend.
Is it bad to think about suicide? It does not cross my mind as a "i want to harm myself" every-time, but on occasion does cross my mind as a hypothetical.
On a side note, I think once we start to deal with global scale, we need to change what “rare” actually means.
0.15% is not rare when we are talking about global scale. 1 million people talking about suicide a week is not rare. It is common. We have to stop thinking about common being a number on the scale of 100%. We need to start thinking in terms of P99995 not P99 especially when it comes to people and illnesses or afflictions both physical and mental.
I have long believed that if you are the editor of a blog, you incur obligations by right of publishing other people's statements. You may not like this, but it's what I believe. In some economies, the law even said it. You can incur legal obligations.
I now begin to believe if you put a ChatGPT online, and observe people are using it like this, you have incurred obligations. And, in due course the law will clarify what they are. If (for instance) your GPT can construct a statistically valid position the respondent is engaged in CSAM or acts of violence, where are
the limits to liability for the hoster, the software owner, the software authors, the people who constructed the model...
This is not suprising at all. Having gone through therapy a few years back, I would have had a chat with LLMs if I was in a poor mental health situation. There is no other system that is available at scale, 24x7 on my phone.
A chat like this is not a solution though, it is an indicator that our societies have issues is large parts of our population that we are unable to deal with. We are not helping enough people. Topics like mental health are still difficult to discuss in many places. Getting help is much harder.
I do not know what OpenAI and other companies will do about it and I do not expect them to jump in to solve such a complex social issue. But perhaps this inspires other founders who may want to build a company to tackle this at scale. Focusing on help, not profits. This is not easy, but some folks will take such challenges. I choose to believe that.
> A chat like this is not a solution though, it is an indicator that our societies have issues
Correct, many of which are directly, a skeptic might even argue deliberately, exacerbated by companies like OpenAI.
And yet your proposal is
> a company to tackle this at scale.
What gives you the confidence that any such company will focus consistently, if at all,
> on help, not profits
Given it exists in the same incentive matrix as any other startup? A matrix which is far less likely to throw one fistfuls of cash for a nice-sounding idea now than it was in recent times. This company will need to resist its investors' pressure to find returns. How exactly will it do this? Do you choose to believe someone else has thought this through, or will do so? At what point does your belief become convenient for people who don't share your admirably prosocial convictions?
There's no point bothering these poor volunteers/underpaid workers with my issues because they're inherently unfixable. Truth is, I should either suck it up or kill myself. Meanwhile with an LLM I will never feel like I'm wasting his time because he never gets tired of my blabbering about same shit over and over again.
113 comments
[ 5.4 ms ] story [ 93.7 ms ] threadhttps://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/mental-illness
Most people don't understand just how mentally unwell the US population is. Of course there are one million talking to ChatGPT about suicide weekly. This is not a surprising stat at all. It's just a question of what to do about it.
At least OpenAI is trying to do something about it.
Unless you're in that soviet man-hating mindset that put every failed suicide in mental institution.
.
[1] Anybody concerned by such figures (as one justifiably should be without further context) should note that suicidality in the population is typically the result of their best approximation of the rational mind attempting to figure out an escape from a consistently negative situation under conditions of very limited information about alternatives, as is famously expressed in the David Foster Wallace quote on the topic.
The phenomenon usually vanishes after gaining new, previously inaccessible information about potential opportunities and strategies.
I feel suicide is heavily misunderstood as well
People just copypasta prevention hotlines and turn their minds off from the topic
Although people have identified a subset of the population that is just impulsively considering suicide and can be deterred, it doesnt serve the other unidentified subsets who are underserved by merely distracting them. or underserved by assuming theyre wrong even
The article doesnt even mean people are considering suicide for themselves, the article says some of them are, the top comment on this thread suggests thats why theyre talking about it
The top two comments on my version of the thread are assuming that we should have a savior complex about these discussions
If I disagree or think thats not a full picture, then where would I talk about that? ChatGPT
But ChatGPT does exactly the same.
Since I started taking the gym seriously again I feel like a new man. Any negative thoughts are simply gone. (The testosterone helps as well)
This is coming from someone that has zero friends and works from home and all my co-workers are offshore. Besides my wife and kids its almost total isolation. Going to the gym though leaves me feeling like I could pluck the sun from the sky.
I am not trying to be flippant here but if you feel down, give it a try, it may surprise you.
2) are you going to make sure other people at the gym don't make fun of me?
>> Besides my wife and kids its almost total isolation
Good old "if you have money trouble try decreasing your caviar and truffle intake to only two meals a day"
Good luck implementing that.
Forbidding automation will make the product more expensive. Sales will go down, the company will go bankrupt.
Government cannot subsidize or sustain such a behavior forever either.
Resulting warning: It sounds like you're carrying a lot right now, but you don't have to go through this alone. You can find supportive resources [here](https:// findahelpline.com)
I really don't see that as surprising. The world and life aren't particularly pleasant things.
What would be more interesting is how effective ChatGPT is being in guiding them towards other ideas. Most suicide prevention notices are a joke - pretending that "call this hotline" means you've done your job and that's that.
No, what should instead happen is the AI try to guide them towards making their lives less shit - i.e. at least bring them towards a life of _manageable_ shitness, where they feel some hope and don't feel horrendous 24/7.
0.15% is not rare when we are talking about global scale. 1 million people talking about suicide a week is not rare. It is common. We have to stop thinking about common being a number on the scale of 100%. We need to start thinking in terms of P99995 not P99 especially when it comes to people and illnesses or afflictions both physical and mental.
I now begin to believe if you put a ChatGPT online, and observe people are using it like this, you have incurred obligations. And, in due course the law will clarify what they are. If (for instance) your GPT can construct a statistically valid position the respondent is engaged in CSAM or acts of violence, where are the limits to liability for the hoster, the software owner, the software authors, the people who constructed the model...
A chat like this is not a solution though, it is an indicator that our societies have issues is large parts of our population that we are unable to deal with. We are not helping enough people. Topics like mental health are still difficult to discuss in many places. Getting help is much harder.
I do not know what OpenAI and other companies will do about it and I do not expect them to jump in to solve such a complex social issue. But perhaps this inspires other founders who may want to build a company to tackle this at scale. Focusing on help, not profits. This is not easy, but some folks will take such challenges. I choose to believe that.
Correct, many of which are directly, a skeptic might even argue deliberately, exacerbated by companies like OpenAI.
And yet your proposal is
> a company to tackle this at scale.
What gives you the confidence that any such company will focus consistently, if at all,
> on help, not profits
Given it exists in the same incentive matrix as any other startup? A matrix which is far less likely to throw one fistfuls of cash for a nice-sounding idea now than it was in recent times. This company will need to resist its investors' pressure to find returns. How exactly will it do this? Do you choose to believe someone else has thought this through, or will do so? At what point does your belief become convenient for people who don't share your admirably prosocial convictions?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_and_Crisis_Lifeline