Good post by Gruber on this, and kudos to him for emphasising the bravery of the citizens involved, I only hope that justice can be seen to be done, but I'm not holding my breath with Noem neck-deep in the lies already.
Considering the behavior of ICE, it seems like they hired some folks just desperate to find legal cover to shoot someone. There are numerous videos of them casually drawing their weapons on protesters.
His failure to do his job correctly multiple times isn't justification for the murder of a 37 year old mother and the orphaning of her child.
Most sane government agencies would make sure he knew and started following the required protocol so that he would be safe/competent the next time before putting him back on the street. Yet he again failed to do his job and follow protocol, and stood in front of a vehicle. Seems like repeat government/leadership/agent failure.
The quote is 'We live in a world where trained cops can panic and act on impulse, but untrained civilians must remain calm with a gun in their face.'. Random americans in unusual situations can't be expected to not stress/freak out, that is realistic human nature. That is why officers are trained and required as part of their job to never place themselves in front of vehicles.
It is on the trained officers, initiating the situation and experienced with it, to keep things under control. That is literally their job. The obligation shouldn't be on a mom that just dropped her kids at school that isn't the 'trained professional' in the scenario.
It doesn't make any sense to me why an agent would deliberately put themselves at the front of a car if they'd previously been in such an incident (presumably they weren't hurt by the previous incident). Anyone with a functioning brain would surely have much better awareness of their positioning and should be following the guidance to approach from the side.
Also, I thought there was very clear guidance about not discharging guns towards unarmed drivers as it doesn't tend to stop them and is likely to result in the vehicle being accelerated into someone/something.
> why an agent would deliberately put themselves at the front of a car if they'd previously been in such an incident
One reason would be that after the first time he fucked around and found out with a vehicle, he resolved to shoot the driver the next time. This would explain why he tried to box in the metal car with his squishy body while keeping an exit strategy - being positioned at the right place to claim he was worried about being hit without actually getting hit. It would also mean this incident was premeditated murder.
The nature of our current political crisis is changing by the minute, and with every fascist act this administration emboldens the next wave of left wing opposition.
The moderate position for future liberal candidates is now the full dissolution of ICE.
The more radical position - which is rapidly gaining support - is the arrest and prosecution of everyone involved in this administration. Starting with the president but including his cabinet and the oligarchs who spent the last year fomenting corruption and enriching themselves.
But is what you have now "right" wing? Or just oligarchy of no real wing? I'm not sure that ideology has a real role in what they actually do (looking beyond words), unless "I do what I please" is an ideology...
I feel no shame in anything I felt about Charlie Kirk’s death after seeing their response to this, and that looks like it was a team kill from conservatives.
One side of the political aisle in this country is screaming about how violent the other side is, while they are committing murder and telling us that our eyes are lying to us.
I’ll just say that I fully expect American police to shoot people in that situation. Not because it’s justified but because their whole deal is:
“Sir, stop resisting. I gave you a lawful order”
“Sir, sir, BANG BANG”
“I feared for my life”
It’s like a pitbull, right? It’s right there most of the time. Then one day it eats a baby. But you kind of knew it had baby eating ready to go. It’s sitting there ready to eat babies. Just a question of when. Then the baby gets eaten and you’re upset. But most people just stay away from the baby eater.
One day you’re walking down the street and your baby gets eaten. Justifiable? No. Your fault? Also no. But there’s baby eaters out there. Such is life.
You had me until, “Such as life.” The point here is there is no reason life should be this way and that is why people have a problem with it.
Sadly, agreed, most should expect to get shot to death by police in any given situation. Most become a police officer with the sole purpose of being able to shoot someone and they are continuously looking for any opportunity to do so. They are literally a junkie waiting to get their fix.
Sadly, agreed, pitbulls should not be kept as pets and certainly not when children are present. Most people can’t control their pets, let alone a pitbull. Also, pitbull owners know they are choosing a pitbull for the sole purpose of proving others wrong, or the opportunity to blame someone else if their pitbull attacks someone. Weirdly like police.
Inquiry, since I know anti immigrant sentiment is on the rise in other countries. How are other countries increasing their enforcement of their immigration laws? Are there also chaotic situations where their immigration enforcers are shooting people in cars? Are there better ways for rising anti-immigrant sentiment to result in stricter enforcement with less violence?
Now that you're mentioning, I'm surprised that, even though in some corners anti-immigrant parties rose to governing, they are only doing legislation and stricter enforcing immigration and border protection rules - not appreciated by everybody of course but somehow understandable where they're coming from. Might be somebody else knows more, or has seen more, but my one data point is: no nothing like that was ever hinted from what I can tell. And I'm appalled.
India has been deporting immigrants to Bangladesh/Myanmar and this includes Indian Citizens, because there is no due process being followed and court orders are being regularly ignored.
> authorities forced another 40 Rohingya refugees into the sea near Myanmar, giving them life jackets and making them swim to shore
> the police raided his home, seized his mobile phone, and tore up his identity documents, which were proof of his (Indian) citizenship. They then flew him in a BSF plane (…) Sheikh said he was forced to cross into Bangladesh with eight others.
I'm from Russia. There's no such special department there, nor police shoots at anyone in a car. They do chase, then after some minutes, if nothing works, shoot at tires. There's no rule, nor drilling to shoot then think, nor to take a gun ASAP. There's no qualified immunity for police either. (Right-wing Russians, even die-hard Putin's supporters, in fact admire this side of the American police -- like "you don't stare at a policeman in America", they say.) The whole issue of detainees being shot -- that's not a problem there at all.
There is one department that's similar to ICE, the riot police called Rosgvardia (Russian Guard), which is anti-mass-protest force. When it was created, they hired all the normal police drop-outs, the worst. But they only carry batons.
The real issue with human rights in Russia is in courts and law application, and inside prisons, out of public eye.
I’m in the UK. There is strong anti-ILLEGAL-immigrant sentiment, because hundreds of thousands of undocumented men originating in Africa and the Middle East have illegally crossed the English Channel from France and then made asylum claims, meaning the UK taxpayer is forced (by treaty) to house them and feed them. These are quite evidently opportunists. A large proportion are young fighting-age men, and most are fleeing countries where there is no current conflict.
As a taxpayer in a cost of living crisis I resent seeing hotels full of these chancers.
And I don’t think women and girls are safe with them around, given the staggering sexual crime statistics
It's almost like giving a nearly-completely-unregulated quasi-military force unlimited funding, more weapons than God, and no clear goals other than "deport more people" is actually a really bad idea.
People voted for this.
Oh but hey, we at least made sure to pretend to save money by firing and then rapidly rehiring a lot of the workforce.
Will somebody vouch for this? I know what you're thinking. This doesn't encourage curiosity! This is politics! Same old, same old.
HN! Come on, how myopic must you be to not see that a working democracy is a condition sine qua non of your dear curiosity. You see what's happening in Iran, right? Well, they don't!
It's a false dichotomy and this mode of black/white thinking is everywhere online.
Unless you agree 100% with every single atom and detail of >THING X<, you are automatically the enemy and literally Adolf Hitler.
Had a similar discussion in the thread for the hacker doxxing conservative dating sites: while I disagree with white supremacists I still think doxxing people online is wrong (for both sides).
And for Gruber's article: I don't think HN is the place to discuss US local politics coverage, let alone through a poster that reviews Apple software and hardware most of his time.
I can still think this && what happened to that woman is horrible.
I can still think that doxxing political opponents is wrong && that white supremacists have no place in 2026.
It's crazy to me that "no politics" arguments are still getting flung around. This is so far beyond political at this point. Citizens being murdered by masked men with total immunity? What the fuck has our country come to.
He already has talked about cancelling the election. What happens when he declares a state of emergency to cancel the 2026 midterms - is that political? Are we allowed to discuss it? The effective end of the United States, but whatever, get back to the code mines, the VCs need those returns.
Just an absolutely crazy situation we are in right now.
What I find even more horrifying than the murder is the response from people in power. Lying. Calling the victim a terrorist. Claiming she deserved it. Expressing unequivocal support for the killer. Threatening more of the same for the opposition. Posting fucking memes! Not even a hint of sympathy anywhere to be seen.
These people are animals. They should be in chains in front of a tribunal, not running the country. And they dare call themselves Christians?
I'm not sure this will play well for them politically. A fair bit of what got Trump elected was saying they'd protect ordinary Americans from immigrant criminals. Now they have footage of a white middle class mum in an suv, pretty much their median voter, being shot dead by their thugs and saying don't believe you eyes and clear video evidence, she tried to run an officer over when she obviously didn't.
The whole “was it justified or not” is a huge distraction from the principles of the matter, which ironically is a huge benefit to those with fascist ambitions. Classic America getting caught up in reviewing the tapes like it’s Monday morning after a controversial NFL Sunday.
The principle of the matter is that the fascist apparatus of the US government has made it clear that should you have a grievance against them, you have no recourse, even if your grievance is legitimate. Their immediate response to deny wrongdoing and establish immunity is de facto fascism, which should be no surprise to those who have read Carl Schmitt and Decisionism, and paid attention when Miller slipped up about “plenary authority”.
> The Trump Administration Says It's Illegal To Record Videos of ICE. Here's What the Law Says.
> Violence is anything that threatens them and their safety, so it is doxing them, it's videotaping them where they're at when they're out on operations," Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem said.
So he is right to think she might have been shot for doing this.
edit: note that's a libertarian source. They've always had a strain of civil libertarians on that publication but the comments on the site reveal a lot of libertarians now think it's a good thing that white liberal women are being shot.
this is so hard for me, I have been in several situations where guns have been drawn, including by police(for no reason), and others where guns have been fired as intimidation, and "accidental" discharges
and have always reacted instinctivly and yelled at and stood up to idiots and there guns, watching this video and the one where a civilian disarms one of the attackers on bondi beach, vividly shows the monsters and people who will stand up and fight or are just caught up in something they dont understand, but that the person in Miniapolis who filmed this, stood there and bore witness while this unfolded is something I could never have imagined, the ones at the top, orchestrating these public executions, should fear the implacable bravery of those who will stand firm far more than a reactionary like me.
Also, another person has documented ICE blocking an MD from assisting the murder victim, who is 20' away dieing.
I don’t think this is as clear cut as anyone on either side is claiming.
Looking [1], it does appear that Renee attempted to run the car right into the ICE officer, the wheels were still pointing slightly left, and the officer was still in front of the car. Also in [2] you can see that she was looking directly at the officer during this initial acceleration attempt. The only thing that saved the officer in that initial attempt was the loss of traction due to the icy road.
After that, indeed the wheels were pointing away from the officer and arguably there was no more danger to him, but after the clear attempt to hit him, you cannot realistically expect the officer, in a split second, to re-evaluate if her intentions to hurt anybody changed or not. At this point his life was already threatened. He doesn’t know what she is doing and waiting to find out could mean that he is dead.
Please explain what you think the word "murder" means, first.
Then please explain your understanding of the law, with regards to the circumstances under which LEO are permitted to use their weapons.
Then please watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDda-L_ZOE8 and cite at least one point of disagreement with the legal argument presented, on any objective grounds (factual or legal).
They have released a version of the masked agent's bodycam. Seems to be another Rorschach test: they released it because they think it's exculpatory, but to my eyes it's even worse. He's engaged in a petty argument with the driver, tries to block her car with his body as she drives away, shoots her, then says "fuckin' bitch!" after he's killed her.
> He's engaged in a petty argument with the driver
No; the argument occurs outside the vehicle, and is with the driver's partner. And it is not so much of an "argument" as him being repeatedly provoked with statements such as "You want to come at us? I say go get yourself some lunch, big boy. Go ahead."
> tries to block her car with his body
No, he does not. He happened to move around the front of the car, which is consistent with circling the car to get video footage of it from all angles which would be part of expected evidence-gathering protocol. The car can be seen (including in other video) to move back and realign as he is walking in front.
> then says "fuckin' bitch!" after he's killed her.
Even left-wing sources like the CBC concede that "It is unclear who said those words."
ICE are the modern day equivalent of Nazi Brownshirts/storm troopers, who went around rounding up and harassing minorities in the early days of Nazi Germany.
They're now able to kill at will and call it "self defence".
The sharpest (and scariest) analysis I've encountered is this: the administration governs as though no government will ever follow. The blanket pardons for January 6th insurrectionists, the revocation of Secret Service protection for political enemies—these are not the actions of someone who expects to face accountability from a future administration. And that's precisely the point. Trump is not governing recklessly; he is governing with a specific end in mind: to be president for the rest of his life.
That project requires dismantling the judiciary, hollowing out independent institutions, muzzling the press, and having his own goon squad. By all appearances, he is on schedule.
The abduction of Maduro was not about naming his crimes, but about ignoring them. The worst thing that Maduro did is just what Trump is beginning to do: killing civilians and blaming them for their own deaths. After Minneapolis, Maduro’s lies are being repeated: in American English, by American authorities.
The thousands of extrajudicial killings in Maduro’s Venezuela were carried out by organized death squads. These actions were described as defensive. The Maduro regime claimed that the people they murdered were resisting government authority, and that the men who pulled the trigger had been provoked by those whom they murdered.
Minneapolis has just witnessed an extrajudicial killing, at the hands of ICE, which looks more and more like a presidential paramilitary organization.
The action was, horribly, excused by the president, the vice-president, and the director of homeland security, using the same lies as those told by Maduro’s Venezuelan regime.
The victim was resisting government authority, they said.
The man who pulled the trigger had been provoked, they said.
It was not the killer who was a terrorist. It was the mom who had just dropped off one of her six-year-old at school.
Also, the proposed expansion of the White House doesn't align with the interests of Trump leaving at the end of his second term as it would have barely been finished by then. He does not seem like the type of person who would do something that only benefits someone else.
(My conspiracy-inspired theory is that they are working on the underground bunker there with the understanding that it may soon be in use when war breaks out)
I feel like posting this up top for context [1]. This is an example of someone actually getting hit by a car, from an ICE agent driving with clear intent to harm someone while laughing about it. I would assume that everyone who believes Renee was committing vehicular assault would agree that this is also a case of vehicular assault, and the agent in question should be charged with attempted murder.
61 comments
[ 0.28 ms ] story [ 85.2 ms ] thread"The agent who shot a woman in Minneapolis on Wednesday was pulled about 100 yards by a car last year while firing a stun gun at the driver."
So, this is a trend.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ICE_Raids/comments/1q7u4kz/ice_agen...
https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/1q7y43s/cbp_poin...
Most sane government agencies would make sure he knew and started following the required protocol so that he would be safe/competent the next time before putting him back on the street. Yet he again failed to do his job and follow protocol, and stood in front of a vehicle. Seems like repeat government/leadership/agent failure.
The quote is 'We live in a world where trained cops can panic and act on impulse, but untrained civilians must remain calm with a gun in their face.'. Random americans in unusual situations can't be expected to not stress/freak out, that is realistic human nature. That is why officers are trained and required as part of their job to never place themselves in front of vehicles.
It is on the trained officers, initiating the situation and experienced with it, to keep things under control. That is literally their job. The obligation shouldn't be on a mom that just dropped her kids at school that isn't the 'trained professional' in the scenario.
Also, I thought there was very clear guidance about not discharging guns towards unarmed drivers as it doesn't tend to stop them and is likely to result in the vehicle being accelerated into someone/something.
One reason would be that after the first time he fucked around and found out with a vehicle, he resolved to shoot the driver the next time. This would explain why he tried to box in the metal car with his squishy body while keeping an exit strategy - being positioned at the right place to claim he was worried about being hit without actually getting hit. It would also mean this incident was premeditated murder.
The moderate position for future liberal candidates is now the full dissolution of ICE.
The more radical position - which is rapidly gaining support - is the arrest and prosecution of everyone involved in this administration. Starting with the president but including his cabinet and the oligarchs who spent the last year fomenting corruption and enriching themselves.
One side of the political aisle in this country is screaming about how violent the other side is, while they are committing murder and telling us that our eyes are lying to us.
Gonna be a fun decade ahead
“Sir, stop resisting. I gave you a lawful order”
“Sir, sir, BANG BANG”
“I feared for my life”
It’s like a pitbull, right? It’s right there most of the time. Then one day it eats a baby. But you kind of knew it had baby eating ready to go. It’s sitting there ready to eat babies. Just a question of when. Then the baby gets eaten and you’re upset. But most people just stay away from the baby eater.
One day you’re walking down the street and your baby gets eaten. Justifiable? No. Your fault? Also no. But there’s baby eaters out there. Such is life.
Embarrassing what level of discourse this site has fallen to.
Indeed.
> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
> "she was asking for it"
Another way to, er interpret their comment could be, "This tragic outcome was predictable." It does not blame the victim, it is an observation.
Sadly, agreed, most should expect to get shot to death by police in any given situation. Most become a police officer with the sole purpose of being able to shoot someone and they are continuously looking for any opportunity to do so. They are literally a junkie waiting to get their fix.
Sadly, agreed, pitbulls should not be kept as pets and certainly not when children are present. Most people can’t control their pets, let alone a pitbull. Also, pitbull owners know they are choosing a pitbull for the sole purpose of proving others wrong, or the opportunity to blame someone else if their pitbull attacks someone. Weirdly like police.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/07/23/india-hundreds-of-muslim...
> authorities forced another 40 Rohingya refugees into the sea near Myanmar, giving them life jackets and making them swim to shore
> the police raided his home, seized his mobile phone, and tore up his identity documents, which were proof of his (Indian) citizenship. They then flew him in a BSF plane (…) Sheikh said he was forced to cross into Bangladesh with eight others.
There is one department that's similar to ICE, the riot police called Rosgvardia (Russian Guard), which is anti-mass-protest force. When it was created, they hired all the normal police drop-outs, the worst. But they only carry batons.
The real issue with human rights in Russia is in courts and law application, and inside prisons, out of public eye.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global-migration-and-demography/...
As a taxpayer in a cost of living crisis I resent seeing hotels full of these chancers.
And I don’t think women and girls are safe with them around, given the staggering sexual crime statistics
https://www.migrationcentral.co.uk/p/up-to-third-of-sexual-a...
Call me “anti-immigrant” if you like. I don’t care. I’m voting for fairness and safety in the next election.
People voted for this.
Oh but hey, we at least made sure to pretend to save money by firing and then rapidly rehiring a lot of the workforce.
Gruber needs an identity that isn't conjoined at the hip with fascist enablers. His insecurity is palpable.
Will somebody vouch for this? I know what you're thinking. This doesn't encourage curiosity! This is politics! Same old, same old.
HN! Come on, how myopic must you be to not see that a working democracy is a condition sine qua non of your dear curiosity. You see what's happening in Iran, right? Well, they don't!
Put your glasses on, HN, you're not seeing shit.
> Will somebody vouch for this?
It's a false dichotomy and this mode of black/white thinking is everywhere online. Unless you agree 100% with every single atom and detail of >THING X<, you are automatically the enemy and literally Adolf Hitler.
Had a similar discussion in the thread for the hacker doxxing conservative dating sites: while I disagree with white supremacists I still think doxxing people online is wrong (for both sides).
And for Gruber's article: I don't think HN is the place to discuss US local politics coverage, let alone through a poster that reviews Apple software and hardware most of his time.
I can still think this && what happened to that woman is horrible.
I can still think that doxxing political opponents is wrong && that white supremacists have no place in 2026.
Better discuss another article about using AI for coding.
He already has talked about cancelling the election. What happens when he declares a state of emergency to cancel the 2026 midterms - is that political? Are we allowed to discuss it? The effective end of the United States, but whatever, get back to the code mines, the VCs need those returns.
Just an absolutely crazy situation we are in right now.
The stance this site has taken while things like this happen outside the very doors is shameful.
What are you even referring to?
These people are animals. They should be in chains in front of a tribunal, not running the country. And they dare call themselves Christians?
I've found the reaction from most people in the US horrifying since the "grab em by the pussy" days...
And most animals typically act much less indiscriminately violent than we do.
The principle of the matter is that the fascist apparatus of the US government has made it clear that should you have a grievance against them, you have no recourse, even if your grievance is legitimate. Their immediate response to deny wrongdoing and establish immunity is de facto fascism, which should be no surprise to those who have read Carl Schmitt and Decisionism, and paid attention when Miller slipped up about “plenary authority”.
Spade is a spade at this point.
https://reason.com/2026/01/08/you-have-the-right-to-record-i...
> The Trump Administration Says It's Illegal To Record Videos of ICE. Here's What the Law Says.
> Violence is anything that threatens them and their safety, so it is doxing them, it's videotaping them where they're at when they're out on operations," Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem said.
So he is right to think she might have been shot for doing this.
edit: note that's a libertarian source. They've always had a strain of civil libertarians on that publication but the comments on the site reveal a lot of libertarians now think it's a good thing that white liberal women are being shot.
Looking [1], it does appear that Renee attempted to run the car right into the ICE officer, the wheels were still pointing slightly left, and the officer was still in front of the car. Also in [2] you can see that she was looking directly at the officer during this initial acceleration attempt. The only thing that saved the officer in that initial attempt was the loss of traction due to the icy road.
After that, indeed the wheels were pointing away from the officer and arguably there was no more danger to him, but after the clear attempt to hit him, you cannot realistically expect the officer, in a split second, to re-evaluate if her intentions to hurt anybody changed or not. At this point his life was already threatened. He doesn’t know what she is doing and waiting to find out could mean that he is dead.
[1] https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/2008984798271094791
[2] https://x.com/nicksortor/status/2009683575298211979
It's like they live in a different reality or something.
Then please explain your understanding of the law, with regards to the circumstances under which LEO are permitted to use their weapons.
Then please watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDda-L_ZOE8 and cite at least one point of disagreement with the legal argument presented, on any objective grounds (factual or legal).
https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3mbz3v...
> He's engaged in a petty argument with the driver
No; the argument occurs outside the vehicle, and is with the driver's partner. And it is not so much of an "argument" as him being repeatedly provoked with statements such as "You want to come at us? I say go get yourself some lunch, big boy. Go ahead."
> tries to block her car with his body
No, he does not. He happened to move around the front of the car, which is consistent with circling the car to get video footage of it from all angles which would be part of expected evidence-gathering protocol. The car can be seen (including in other video) to move back and realign as he is walking in front.
> then says "fuckin' bitch!" after he's killed her.
Even left-wing sources like the CBC concede that "It is unclear who said those words."
They're now able to kill at will and call it "self defence".
Maduro in Minneapolis (Murderous Lies) by Timothy Snyder - https://snyder.substack.com/p/maduro-in-minneapolis
(My conspiracy-inspired theory is that they are working on the underground bunker there with the understanding that it may soon be in use when war breaks out)
Chuck Schumer can’t even say ICE funding should go down
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ICE_Watch/comments/1pjye82/ice_agen...