> Has anyone else noticed that the AI industry can’t take “no” for an answer? AI is being force-fed into every corner of tech. It’s unfathomable to them that some of us aren’t interested. The entire AI industry is built upon a common principle of non-consent.
I can't help but see the spam as more circumstantial evidence of a bubble, where top-down "pump those numbers" priorities overrides regular process.
This is not an AI problem, it's an "data privacy + lack of consequences problem". It happens everywhere. I mean, have you ever tried making an airline company to stop sending their shitty miles newsletters?
Only way to stop is to start fining these companies.
Only way to stop is to start fining these companies.
There is a way to fine them regardless of where they are operating from. Get them on the DNSBL/RBL sites such as uceprotect, spamcop, spamhaus, etc... There are many others. They are still used to this day though indirectly behind the scenes instead of outright rejecting email from those listed. They affect spam scores and are also used by some commercial server products. In some cases this is still a fine regardless of regional laws because one has to pay to get removed immediately rather than waiting for the penalty period without more reports to pass. Uceprotect is well known for this. Some see them as extortion sites and I love it. Spammers should absolutely be extorted to send more UCE.
Implementing this sort of “functionality” is always the department of a junior team, so that the obvious sorts of questions about defaults can be answered with “a junior dev was responsible for the implementation and messed up”, even though the mess up was by design.
I like to frame it like this: "ask me later" is rape culture. It promotes and reinforces a culture of never taking "no" for an answer, and pushing one's agenda/intent regardless of the preference/consent of the other party/parties.
I see the point you're making but this sort of hyperbole has a tendency to turn people away from whatever point you're trying to make unless they already agree with you.
I was visiting a girlfriend once, and she was in the process of moving in the same city. There was a telephone bill on top of her dresser, and I noticed that she had noted "butt-rape fee" next to one of the line items there.
Now she is a very literate woman and loves poetry and "Penny Dreadfuls", so she uses language and words very deliberately. And so, I asked her why she wrote that, and she said it was some sort of unnecessary fee that they were charging to move her line from one address to another, and she clearly resented their opportunistic capitalism.
I certainly sympathized with her, especially since she is the type of woman who has probably been subjected to that sort of actual trauma in her own life, and that of her friends, she had every right to compare the experiences.
Lumo will likely be the thing that moves me away from Proton. I've been pretty happy with it, ever since they made the photo's app actually have shareable libraries it's been just as good as any other Google Mail/Photos/Files thing I've used. The password manager plugin for firefox isn't as good as bitwarden, but when you're paying it's part of the package so... If I have to encrypt my files before I use the drive, and they continue to build their AI spy into everything, though, then what is the point really?
Anyway, it is sort of hilarious to report Proton as spam to Proton.
> I've been pretty happy with it, ever since they made the photo's app actually have shareable libraries it's been just as good as any other Google Mail/Photos/Files thing I've used.
Glad to hear you found a service that's useful to you!
> If I have to encrypt my files before I use the drive, and they continue to build their AI spy into everything, though, then what is the point really?
That would be concerning indeed, but there is no such integration today and it seems unlikely they would integrate non-local models into drive. Even on the mail side, any use of LLMs is optional, opt-in, and limited to text production (i.e. no training on your inbox).
I have a Proton mailbox I specifically keep around to serve as a honeypot, for tracking when one of the many annoying little services will inevitably mishandle the contact address I hand them.
Over the years, the only spam I ever received there was from Proton. Quite the way to recalibrate my expectations, eh?
Odd, I didn't even know Proton had an AI feature until I read this article. Didn't get an email or tooltip while using the app. Didn't previously explicitly opt-out either, and when I check my notification settings, Lumo product updates is set to disabled.
Maybe someone's feature gate isn't working as intended?
I did get the Github Copilot spam email today though.
File under "some business bro had this classified in the wrong newsletter". I don't see the big deal and I don't extrapolate this into some systemic disease with marketing emails.
I think we must make it clear that this is not related to AI at all, even if the product in question is AI-related.
It is a very common problem with modern marketing teams, that have zero empathy for customers (even if they have one, they will never push back on whatever insane demands come from senior management). This is why any email subscription management interface now is as bloated as a dead whale. If too many users unsubscribe, they just add one more category and “accidentally” opt-in everyone.
It’s a shame that Proton marketing team is just like every other one. Maybe it’s a curse of growing organization and middle management creep. The least we can do is push back as customers.
To name and shame two: LinkedIn and MyHeritage. If you ever made an account with either of them, they will never stop spamming you. They have configuration options to select which mail to receive, but they appear to consider them temporary suggestions.
A special dishonourable mention goes to Wal-mart. I never interacted with them in any way whatsoever, as well I wouldn't since they don't exist on my continent as far as I know, yet they still send me spam. DKIM signed and all!
> I think we must make it clear that this is not related to AI at all
Yeah, many companies do that. I unsusbcribed from newline, they still keep spamming me. Funny thing is, they realised they had made a mistake and promised to remove unsubs. One week later, the spam started.
There’s probably a bigger association with it. I don’t like ai and see it everywhere, in every app I use, every service I purchase, my goddamn start bar.
So, when they start emailing unwanted emails, it feels like a spam problem, when really it’s insidious on multiple fronts.
I can’t wait for the enshittification phase. When the products royally fuck their fan base.
It is entirely related, because AI marketing is an amped up version of traditional dark-pattern marketing. And since every tech company is on the AI hype train, then they all fall into the same willingness to justify the worst behavior because of their desperate need to get on the forefront of what they’ve convinced themselves is the only path to growth. But as consumers, since we are confronted with all tech companies all following the same dark patterns, we feel the impact suddenly much stronger than with past one-at-a-time panicky company over-marketing efforts.
AI marketing is not different at all from performance marketing of other solutions. This is really just ordinary consent management and privacy problem. I have participated in large scale email marketing implementations too, and know how it looks from the inside. As a tech partner you may even have a good peer on the business side who cares about customers and compliance, but institutional resistance is still hard to overcome. Sometimes it is just as dumb as an old spreadsheet with contacts being uploaded again and again into your mass mail system, without any consent tracking and ignoring any opt-outs that came after the spreadsheet was created.
The idea that the marketing team has the ability to really push back against senior management doesn't align with the reality I have seen. The best they can do is say that this will do brand damage -- but they don't have the ability to really call the shots. Most organizations marketing is not in a real seat of power - more like an advisory position.
I'm not trying to unfair to marketing - they do have an important role - I have hardly seen a company give marketing real power at an org. So the idea that this is because marketing don't push back on senior management -- is because they know they don't have the power to do this.
They may not have power to push back on KPIs, but even just sticking to regulatory compliance would be good enough. Nobody in management will say in writing that marketing should ignore GDPR, for example. And that means that if you, say, introduce a new category, everyone is supposed to be unsubscribed by default. So non-compliance is always a choice.
This was my first reaction too. It is a bit ironic that the issue of “overlapping labels” can be applied to the OP as well.
My instinct is to classify this as an email consent issue not because AI needs defending, but because the solution need not be specific to AI. The Next Big Thing will also probably have this problem because marketing is at odds making your customers happy with a great product.
The spam was advertising AI, the point of the article was how aggressively AI is being shoved down our throats, and it seems very likely that when he went to complain about the AI spam it was an an AI chatbot which gave him the useless answers until it finally "checked with the team" (presumably a human) who lied to him about what counted as AI spam.
It seems like this is very much about AI even though it's ultimately humans pushing AI and disregarding people's spam preferences. Right now, everything "AI" is ultimately humans (like the way humans are using/abusing the AI tools, or the human intellect behind all of the data that was used to train them and all of the knowledge they output, or the humans deciding what they'll allow their AI to be used for, or the humans failing to safeguard the users of their AI products, etc) so this is as much about AI as anything is.
Last to months several of my connections on Linkedin used private messaging for mass marketing "emails" - "normal" proper companies, not recruiters/outsourcing/... that have been spamming us for years. There is not limit to the things they will try.
On Proton: I don't get the love they get here. There ethics I find questionable and their product (e.g. search) I find unusable.
Ever since my first interaction with their support is was clear that they DGAF about usability improvements that I'd care about. Time to build an alternative I guess.
I only use Proton for the spam or temporary low value (and free) email accounts. Proton also tries to do everything, which I don't like. If I did I'd use Google.
The thing I pay for is Tuta. The cheapest tier is way more generous than Proton and the product is simpler.
I also get pretty pissed of just ignoring gdpr, i just started to downright threaten them on support channels reminding that ignoring gdpr may cost them 2% of annual company turnover or 2 mil. eur, whichever is higher.
You would be surprised how many ridiculous "oh sorry some error in system" excuses you're gonna get. Right, that email accidentally slipped INSERT INTO spam slop database on its own.
And since i started to not explicitly opting in anywhere i know that when i receive a marketing email its abuse of my personal information. Under gdpr you need to explicitly consent to marketing communication. When you register to a service and receive spam you need to opt out from - that's an abuse. Some company try to argue they do so under "legitimate interest" clausule but that's bs and would not hold in court. For example, purchasing a product is not a valid legitimate interest for sending out eshop spam, they would lose.
When the incident repeats or i just get really pissed i go full karen and report them to authorities. I know two busisses had legal troubles because of me because i received deeper follow up emails while solving the case and i am happy for it.
One company that abused my personal data that i ended up not reporting was Telekom: when i contacted their support about spam incident and asked them for log of personal data and all of my consent logs and physical signatures to prove my consent, after which they said "it was a db error" (lol), and when the incident repeated i told them i am about to report them and they offered me 1 year of free internet - i said ok and never received a single spam from them ever again.
Fight back, you have the screenshots, you have the logs, ask for proof, report.
The same reason I pay for proton and they insist on showing ads for upgrading my subscription. I click no don't show this and then a month later when there's a different promotion, there's another ad at the top
Legit point and agreed with everything, however wait until an email address of yours reaches the database of lead generation websites and you will see that you will never be able to keep count of the violations. Newsletter lists add your email in automatically and people sell you stuff without the unsubscribe button in the email, so no way to block them... I understand your concern but dealing with far worse
Even more hypocrisy:- if you have Proton Unlimited subscription, Lumo AI will be limited, not remembering conversations. And when it’s promoting you to upgrade, mentions in the same message that your Lumo is limited while you have Unlimited subscription.
This problem, along with general annoyances at Proton’s lack of focus on a good email experience pushed me over the edge to move to Fastmail. I’m so much happier. Proton Mail Bridge would often pin one core of my laptop CPU, draining my battery, and it was still slow to sync new email. With Fastmail, incoming mail is so fast that the verification codes are already there before I can alt tab over.
I lost all respect for Proton. They've been running ragebait ad campaign on Facebook, maybe also on other media, I don't know that, with that rage especially targeted at Google, spreading fake information and hate.
Great timing: I just received a Copilot spam email from GitHub. I don't remember opting in to such marketing communications, instead I generally opt-out from such communications as soon as I sign up to a service...
118 comments
[ 4.0 ms ] story [ 91.1 ms ] threadI can't help but see the spam as more circumstantial evidence of a bubble, where top-down "pump those numbers" priorities overrides regular process.
Only way to stop is to start fining these companies.
There is a way to fine them regardless of where they are operating from. Get them on the DNSBL/RBL sites such as uceprotect, spamcop, spamhaus, etc... There are many others. They are still used to this day though indirectly behind the scenes instead of outright rejecting email from those listed. They affect spam scores and are also used by some commercial server products. In some cases this is still a fine regardless of regional laws because one has to pay to get removed immediately rather than waiting for the penalty period without more reports to pass. Uceprotect is well known for this. Some see them as extortion sites and I love it. Spammers should absolutely be extorted to send more UCE.
I use them for email and that’s all I want. Every time they market some new product to me, I get closer to moving to a new provider.
Do tech companies understand consent?:
- [ ] Yes
- [ ] Ask me again in a few days
I see the point you're making but this sort of hyperbole has a tendency to turn people away from whatever point you're trying to make unless they already agree with you.
Now she is a very literate woman and loves poetry and "Penny Dreadfuls", so she uses language and words very deliberately. And so, I asked her why she wrote that, and she said it was some sort of unnecessary fee that they were charging to move her line from one address to another, and she clearly resented their opportunistic capitalism.
I certainly sympathized with her, especially since she is the type of woman who has probably been subjected to that sort of actual trauma in her own life, and that of her friends, she had every right to compare the experiences.
https://i.postimg.cc/HnHV5xZK/microsoft-consent.png
Anyway, it is sort of hilarious to report Proton as spam to Proton.
Glad to hear you found a service that's useful to you!
> If I have to encrypt my files before I use the drive, and they continue to build their AI spy into everything, though, then what is the point really?
That would be concerning indeed, but there is no such integration today and it seems unlikely they would integrate non-local models into drive. Even on the mail side, any use of LLMs is optional, opt-in, and limited to text production (i.e. no training on your inbox).
Over the years, the only spam I ever received there was from Proton. Quite the way to recalibrate my expectations, eh?
Maybe someone's feature gate isn't working as intended?
I did get the Github Copilot spam email today though.
AFAIK you are legally allowed to spam businesses, but not individuals. A handy get-out clause for marketeers.
It is a very common problem with modern marketing teams, that have zero empathy for customers (even if they have one, they will never push back on whatever insane demands come from senior management). This is why any email subscription management interface now is as bloated as a dead whale. If too many users unsubscribe, they just add one more category and “accidentally” opt-in everyone.
It’s a shame that Proton marketing team is just like every other one. Maybe it’s a curse of growing organization and middle management creep. The least we can do is push back as customers.
A special dishonourable mention goes to Wal-mart. I never interacted with them in any way whatsoever, as well I wouldn't since they don't exist on my continent as far as I know, yet they still send me spam. DKIM signed and all!
Yeah, many companies do that. I unsusbcribed from newline, they still keep spamming me. Funny thing is, they realised they had made a mistake and promised to remove unsubs. One week later, the spam started.
The correct solution is the spam button. Always
Do you want to accept emails from xxx?
Yes
No
On client side...
It is not specific to "AI" but it is very much related to it.
> If too many users unsubscribe, they just add one more category and “accidentally” opt-in everyone
... and "forget" to add its opt-out to the list.
So, when they start emailing unwanted emails, it feels like a spam problem, when really it’s insidious on multiple fronts.
I can’t wait for the enshittification phase. When the products royally fuck their fan base.
I wonder who told Proton that it’s a good idea to copy big tech tactics.
I'm not trying to unfair to marketing - they do have an important role - I have hardly seen a company give marketing real power at an org. So the idea that this is because marketing don't push back on senior management -- is because they know they don't have the power to do this.
I always "report spam" ("!" key in GMail) before unsubscribing.
My instinct is to classify this as an email consent issue not because AI needs defending, but because the solution need not be specific to AI. The Next Big Thing will also probably have this problem because marketing is at odds making your customers happy with a great product.
It seems like this is very much about AI even though it's ultimately humans pushing AI and disregarding people's spam preferences. Right now, everything "AI" is ultimately humans (like the way humans are using/abusing the AI tools, or the human intellect behind all of the data that was used to train them and all of the knowledge they output, or the humans deciding what they'll allow their AI to be used for, or the humans failing to safeguard the users of their AI products, etc) so this is as much about AI as anything is.
On Proton: I don't get the love they get here. There ethics I find questionable and their product (e.g. search) I find unusable.
Did they ever send Rust related unsolicited emails?
The thing I pay for is Tuta. The cheapest tier is way more generous than Proton and the product is simpler.
For me, these kinds of emails especially stick out, because I like to keep my proton inbox clean and unsubscribe from everything I can.
I've contacted the support, but they basically don't care.
There are not multiple ways to fight back against this behavior. I am now with mailfence until they start the same circus.
You would be surprised how many ridiculous "oh sorry some error in system" excuses you're gonna get. Right, that email accidentally slipped INSERT INTO spam slop database on its own.
And since i started to not explicitly opting in anywhere i know that when i receive a marketing email its abuse of my personal information. Under gdpr you need to explicitly consent to marketing communication. When you register to a service and receive spam you need to opt out from - that's an abuse. Some company try to argue they do so under "legitimate interest" clausule but that's bs and would not hold in court. For example, purchasing a product is not a valid legitimate interest for sending out eshop spam, they would lose.
When the incident repeats or i just get really pissed i go full karen and report them to authorities. I know two busisses had legal troubles because of me because i received deeper follow up emails while solving the case and i am happy for it.
One company that abused my personal data that i ended up not reporting was Telekom: when i contacted their support about spam incident and asked them for log of personal data and all of my consent logs and physical signatures to prove my consent, after which they said "it was a db error" (lol), and when the incident repeated i told them i am about to report them and they offered me 1 year of free internet - i said ok and never received a single spam from them ever again.
Fight back, you have the screenshots, you have the logs, ask for proof, report.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Canter_and_Martha_Sie...
I'm a fan of the randomly generated emails as well. That service integrates with 1Password too.