Its kind of annoying that CF would use an LLM to build something and try to pass it off as something built from "the ground up". Its just copying the library that was already build and passing it off as their own.
The problem is that it doesn't solve the network-effect problem.
People aren't on WordPress because of WordPress.
They're on WordPress because of WooCommerce, a million themes, BuddyPress, integrations for every stupid internal business API on the planet (many of which are terrible and were written by an idiot with a crayon).
The APIs will have no testing because they are bad. In many cases the WordPress implementation of the API written in the codeblock, ran on page-load to the pain of the person responsible for SEO, is the API contract.
And yes those plugins are also terrible, but they solve business problems, even if they are tech problems.
You can't just launch a better wp-core and expect it to replace any of that.
EmDash needs to actually run the existing insecure WP plugins to takeover.
> Our name for this new CMS is EmDash. We think of it as the spiritual successor to WordPress. It’s written entirely in TypeScript. It is serverless, but you can run it on your own hardware or any platform you choose. Plugins are securely sandboxed and can run in their own isolate, via Dynamic Workers, solving the fundamental security problem with the WordPress plugin architecture. And under the hood, EmDash is powered by Astro, the fastest web framework for content-driven websites.
To me this sounds of the polar opposite of the direction CMS's need to go, instead simplify and go back to the "websites" roots where a website are static files wherever, it's fast, easy to cache and just so much easier to deal with than server-side rendered websites.
But of course, then they wouldn't be able to sell their own "workers" product, so suddenly I think I might understand why they built it the way they built it, at the very least to dogfood their own stuff.
I'm not sure it actually solves the "fundamental security problem" in actuality though, but I guess that remains to be seen.
> To me this sounds of the polar opposite of the direction CMS's need to go, instead simplify and go back to the "websites" roots where a website are static files wherever, it's fast, easy to cache and just so much easier to deal with than server-side rendered websites.
To me this wording is strange, since traditional web frameworks do render pages server-side. The specific functions of their templating engines are often even called "render" (https://jinja.palletsprojects.com/en/stable/api/#jinja2.Temp...) or "render_template" or similar (https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/6.0/topics/templates/#djan...). I guess "server-side rendered" is being coopted by the JS ecosystem for some time now, as if they had come up with the very idea of rendering pages on the server side.
It would do the world some good, if people could just look at a technical term, understand its meaning by its components, and then not go: "Ah yes, I will use the same term, but no, no, no, I mean something different by that!"
For this example:
(1) "server-side": happening on the server
(2) "rendering pages": various meanings in different contexts, but on the web meaning filling in information and creating parts of the HTML tree, to get a full HTML document.
This has been done for decades and the result are usually, for the browser, static web pages. Static as in the opposite of dynamic. Dynamic meaning that the pages react to user interaction, meaning scripting, meaning JS.
Slightly late to this party, but in my opinion, this doesn't go nearly far enough. This solution will be relevant for 12 months in it's current form. If it adapts further, it might have legs.
I've built Wordpress sites for 12 years. Very few Wordpress developers are trying to swap to a slightly upgraded version of the same thing with no ecosystem and much of the same solutions. This will see some adoption, no doubt, but not a serious dent.
The main reason for that: in 12 months, 24 months, 36 months, this solution will be outdated and unimportant, same as Wordpress. Wordpress will still be kicking because it already has a 40% market share on the entire internet. This, however, will not be.
The CMS is dead tech in six to twelve months. I might have a million people who will disagree with me (and yes, people will still use CMS's after twelve months), but people actually moving into the future will have dropped CMS's for architectures that are AI first with strong, intuitive, easy-to-leverage guardrails.
In my opinion, the vast majority of people are still looking at AI through the lens of "how does it alter my current work/tech stack/strategy" and failing to ask the proper question: "what the hell is even important in a world where AI is as competent as 90% of humans and 100x faster?"
What do you need a CMS for? You think you'll be managing the content? Why? Why do I want a human managing content when the AI does it 100x as fast? Why do I want Astro? It compiles down nicely? Okay, maybe its a god-tier solution, but more likely... AI can just code extremely fast vanilla html/css/js. Why do I need a component library when AI can steal all the best components from all the best libraries? Why do I need "Portable Text"?
This is still not big picture enough. Think further out than 12 months.
The UI doesn't seem geared to power users. E.g. Why is the featured image taking up so much space above the content editing area when it's sized appropriately for the sidebar? Imagine you need to update the text of several posts... Well, now you gotta scroll down half the page to the content area of each one.
And all that padding gets you quite the narrow content area. Not to mention it looks like a very basic TinyMCE. Seems like more of a POC than an actual "spiritual successor".
I don't think it's the code that makes WordPress valuable. I've been learning WordPress recently and haven't been too impressed with the internals. WordPress is valuable because of the ecosystem and support. I have no doubt that WordPress will still be a thing in ten years. What's the support plan for EmDash? I see commits are mostly from a single developer.
E: Oh, I think it's an April fools joke, I'm embarrassed.
I really hope Cloudflare is ready and willing to stand by this thing for the next 20 years, and drive it as a first class product with a huge open source team. Because short of that you can just add this to the mile-long list of "successors to WordPress" we've been through over the decades. Maybe they're in it for the long haul. We'll see. But it takes time, and mountains of integrations and acceptance into the wider web authoring ecosystem for anything like this to gain real adoption.
Held up getting into the details of this ambitious project because of the name! Ridiculous choice considering the associations with AI, slop, and even the general crowded namespace surrounding that. C'mon.
(looks for cameras) Wait a minute, am I being Punk'D? Oh my god! Ashton, you really got me! Ha Ha! Ashton!
Reading the comments below, have we all fallen for a 1st April Fools' joke?
Actually, rebuilding WordPress without the ecosystem is kind of the point. For example, would Divi or the major page builders rebuild their entire products to support this? I doubt it
I'm all for creating new frameworks that are faster and more secure. But I don't see how this one relates to Wordpress (not in PHP, serverless, not "plug and play", dependent on Astro, "AI Native"…).
It looks like a good open source project, but just call it a new CMS. I think calling it a "spiritual successor to WordPress" is just to gain some marketing points.
It's a shame they don't seem to try to address the divide between CMS's and static sites.
Most WordPress sites could just be static, but WordPress has a nice editor interface, so they're not - unless you use a SSG plugin. Building that into the core workflow (which I believe Astro supports) and giving users a nice hosted editor that produces a static site would be welcome innovation.
I don't even think the WordPress editor is very nice. It's completely separated from how the actual results look. There are CMSs which lets you edit directly in the web page exactly as it will look when published.
As do most productivity software, like MS Office, Photoshop, Apple's iWork, etc.
Imagine making a document in Word, and it looks completely different when published.
> x402 is an open, neutral standard for Internet-native payments. It lets anyone on the Internet easily charge, and any client pay on-demand, on a pay-per-use basis. A client, such as an agent, sends a HTTP request and receives a HTTP 402 Payment Required status code. In response, the client pays for access on-demand, and the server can let the client through to the requested content.
Fascinating. Cloudflare is envisioning a future where agents are given debit cards by their owners, so they can autonomously send microtransactions to website owners to scrape content or possibly purchase goods on the owner's behalf. I don't know how I feel about that but there's no doubt it's a fascinating concept.
Brb, setting up a honeypot that always responds with HTTP 402 Payment Required demanding 10cents per visit... That's the next "selling 1 million pixels on my website for $1 each", I guess
"Plugin security is the root of this problem. Marketplace businesses provide trust when parties otherwise cannot easily trust each other. In the case of the WordPress marketplace, the plugin security risk is so large and probable that many of your customers can only reasonably trust your plugin via the marketplace. But in order to be part of the marketplace your code must be licensed in a way that forces you to give it away for free everywhere other than that marketplace. You are locked in."
There was much drama with wordpress some time ago and the plugin marketplace.
178 comments
[ 2.5 ms ] story [ 103 ms ] threadAnything built on PHP will be widely used, like Laravel
People aren't on WordPress because of WordPress.
They're on WordPress because of WooCommerce, a million themes, BuddyPress, integrations for every stupid internal business API on the planet (many of which are terrible and were written by an idiot with a crayon).
The APIs will have no testing because they are bad. In many cases the WordPress implementation of the API written in the codeblock, ran on page-load to the pain of the person responsible for SEO, is the API contract.
And yes those plugins are also terrible, but they solve business problems, even if they are tech problems.
You can't just launch a better wp-core and expect it to replace any of that.
EmDash needs to actually run the existing insecure WP plugins to takeover.
To me this sounds of the polar opposite of the direction CMS's need to go, instead simplify and go back to the "websites" roots where a website are static files wherever, it's fast, easy to cache and just so much easier to deal with than server-side rendered websites.
But of course, then they wouldn't be able to sell their own "workers" product, so suddenly I think I might understand why they built it the way they built it, at the very least to dogfood their own stuff.
I'm not sure it actually solves the "fundamental security problem" in actuality though, but I guess that remains to be seen.
To me this wording is strange, since traditional web frameworks do render pages server-side. The specific functions of their templating engines are often even called "render" (https://jinja.palletsprojects.com/en/stable/api/#jinja2.Temp...) or "render_template" or similar (https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/6.0/topics/templates/#djan...). I guess "server-side rendered" is being coopted by the JS ecosystem for some time now, as if they had come up with the very idea of rendering pages on the server side.
It would do the world some good, if people could just look at a technical term, understand its meaning by its components, and then not go: "Ah yes, I will use the same term, but no, no, no, I mean something different by that!"
For this example:
This has been done for decades and the result are usually, for the browser, static web pages. Static as in the opposite of dynamic. Dynamic meaning that the pages react to user interaction, meaning scripting, meaning JS.I've built Wordpress sites for 12 years. Very few Wordpress developers are trying to swap to a slightly upgraded version of the same thing with no ecosystem and much of the same solutions. This will see some adoption, no doubt, but not a serious dent.
The main reason for that: in 12 months, 24 months, 36 months, this solution will be outdated and unimportant, same as Wordpress. Wordpress will still be kicking because it already has a 40% market share on the entire internet. This, however, will not be.
The CMS is dead tech in six to twelve months. I might have a million people who will disagree with me (and yes, people will still use CMS's after twelve months), but people actually moving into the future will have dropped CMS's for architectures that are AI first with strong, intuitive, easy-to-leverage guardrails.
In my opinion, the vast majority of people are still looking at AI through the lens of "how does it alter my current work/tech stack/strategy" and failing to ask the proper question: "what the hell is even important in a world where AI is as competent as 90% of humans and 100x faster?"
What do you need a CMS for? You think you'll be managing the content? Why? Why do I want a human managing content when the AI does it 100x as fast? Why do I want Astro? It compiles down nicely? Okay, maybe its a god-tier solution, but more likely... AI can just code extremely fast vanilla html/css/js. Why do I need a component library when AI can steal all the best components from all the best libraries? Why do I need "Portable Text"?
This is still not big picture enough. Think further out than 12 months.
Is this April fools? With real products launching on this date you can't really be too sure.
And all that padding gets you quite the narrow content area. Not to mention it looks like a very basic TinyMCE. Seems like more of a POC than an actual "spiritual successor".
E: Oh, I think it's an April fools joke, I'm embarrassed.
E2: Apparently not a joke.
(looks for cameras) Wait a minute, am I being Punk'D? Oh my god! Ashton, you really got me! Ha Ha! Ashton!
Actually, rebuilding WordPress without the ecosystem is kind of the point. For example, would Divi or the major page builders rebuild their entire products to support this? I doubt it
It looks like a good open source project, but just call it a new CMS. I think calling it a "spiritual successor to WordPress" is just to gain some marketing points.
Most WordPress sites could just be static, but WordPress has a nice editor interface, so they're not - unless you use a SSG plugin. Building that into the core workflow (which I believe Astro supports) and giving users a nice hosted editor that produces a static site would be welcome innovation.
As do most productivity software, like MS Office, Photoshop, Apple's iWork, etc.
Imagine making a document in Word, and it looks completely different when published.
Fascinating. Cloudflare is envisioning a future where agents are given debit cards by their owners, so they can autonomously send microtransactions to website owners to scrape content or possibly purchase goods on the owner's behalf. I don't know how I feel about that but there's no doubt it's a fascinating concept.
Brb, setting up a honeypot that always responds with HTTP 402 Payment Required demanding 10cents per visit... That's the next "selling 1 million pixels on my website for $1 each", I guess
"Plugin security is the root of this problem. Marketplace businesses provide trust when parties otherwise cannot easily trust each other. In the case of the WordPress marketplace, the plugin security risk is so large and probable that many of your customers can only reasonably trust your plugin via the marketplace. But in order to be part of the marketplace your code must be licensed in a way that forces you to give it away for free everywhere other than that marketplace. You are locked in."
There was much drama with wordpress some time ago and the plugin marketplace.