If only hip cafes that get custom built ones knew how to pull an actual espresso shot.
New rule should be La Marzocco judges every barista on their skills before being able to flip a paddle, which requires a bespoke NFC card linked to their certification.
Yes I’m salty about the amount of aesthetic cafes that have no idea what to do about their coffee program because all they care about is being a hip third space.
I love my La Marzocco Linea Micra. It’s exceptionally well-built and feels like an Apple product in its simplicity. The only downside is the app you have to use to use the programmed automated backflush.
But the user experience is remarkably simple. Turn the knob left to start the flow of water, turn the other way to stop. Move the dial to steam/froth milk. Fantastic default water pressure and even better tasting coffee. It’s a machine that will last a decade if not longer.
>The only downside is the app you have to use to use the programmed automated backflush.
Goddamnit, why the fuck can't we just have a machine that fucking does everything we need it to, on its own? An espresso machine requires a fucking app? Goddamnit.
Yes, I realize nothing about this comment is constructive.
Just bought a La Micra last year. Big factor was knowing I can get parts and service for life. I had a lesser known brand machine for almost 15 years, but at some point I couldn't get parts or anyone to work on it, so it died when the pump gasket failed.
Dropped in to say this. The Marzoccos are good, but dang the Kees van der Westen are downright amazing... I know a lot of cafe owners who threw the Marzocco out and purchased a Kees and the espresso shot quality went through the roof.
Before you spend many thousands of dollars on a machine better suited to a coffee shop, consider getting a minimalist lever machine.
I have (and love) my little Cafelat Robot [1]. It is small, draws no electricity, and relies upon my practiced hands to push preheated water through the coffee puck. There is nothing to get between me and the experience of making great espresso. I can feel the pressure, I can hear the stream of espresso, I can effortlessly adjust the flow in response to what the extraction is telling my senses.
Instead of a button press, pulling a shot is now a tactile experience that engages the senses. When the pull is done, I am primed to enjoy the results.
Yes, before getting an expensive commercial-style machine, consider what’s on the other end of the spectrum. Full manual has its benefits, both practical and aesthetic.
Plus, the money you will save will let you buy a better grinder. And that makes all the difference.
The practical benefit is having basically zero parts.
We got a Flair manual espresso maker after our Gaggia Classic crapped out after a year (hard water buildup, probably). I de-scaled, replaced some parts, still didn't work.
> Before you spend many thousands of dollars on a machine better suited to a coffee shop, consider getting a minimalist lever machine.
Agreed. I have a Pavoni Europiccola, and it's made approximately ~11,000 espresso shots (about half of those ended up as milk-based beverages). It makes excellent coffee, and I live in a place where there are a _lot_ of good coffee places around to compare to.
The maintenance is something I do myself, with a few small & inexpensive tools, and a few gaskets I need to replace. The machine will likely outlive me, which is a rare thing to say these days.
I agree but for different reasons. As a hardcore light/ultralight roast coffee nerd, I often recommend 'soup shots' over espresso. I've never owned an espresso setup, but the "soup shots" I've pulled with a $45 oxo brewer absolutely are in the ballpark of the best espresso shots I've had from the same roasts brewed with a traditional machine.
They are fun but at the end of the day the deal breakers are "preheated water" and no steamed milk without more machines/gadgets. Kind of kills the entire point. That said, there are more advanced lever machines that have boilers built in.
I would like to give a strong counterexample to that. I got a Flair 58 lever machine which on the one hand is a beautifully engineered machine (connected to a trash power supply that feels like it stepped out of the 90s but that's another story).
However, it's not the machine for me. I got it when I was deeply getting into coffee, and I'm coming from a scientific background so I wanted to do proper testing of my extractions. That's not really possible with a lever machine. Shots are inherently not reproducible, it's very difficult to get the same pressure from one shot to the next, even with the pressure gauge.
If that doesn't bother you and you're just happy to get decent espresso from a beautiful looking machine, then absolutely go for a lever machine.
But if you have scientific tendencies, if you want to properly test and compare flavors between between and brew ratios, it's not for you.
A prosumer electric machine will give you way more consistent results, although you won't be able to adjust pressure you'll still be able to adjust everything else.
And of course, if you want to steam milk then a lever machine can't do that either.
> Before you spend many thousands of dollars on a machine better suited to a coffee shop, consider getting a minimalist lever machine.
Nope. I agree about enjoyment factor but still: no. Unless you are single and don't like cappu's.
With lever machines it's going like this: you turn it on, wait few minutes, pull espresso... and it is too cold. You pull second and third and those can be good but by 4th espressos are too hot so they are bitter. So it is time to turn off your lever mini-espresso machine... And milk frothing ? n/c
Oh, and boiler size in "lever" machines :) La Pavoni Stradivari is 16... But what you do when boiler is empty ? You have solid piece of metal with temp 90-100 C, how you like to unscrewing and refiling it ? :) And then 5 minutes of warming it to 90's again...
Now cost... 1k up to 2k dollars for lever. So when "many starts" ? For 2k-3k you have more available machines then you want to choose from :>
And belive me: you _want_ a plumbed one. So we are almost in "commercial" territory, there is no way around it.
There are now new generations of "lab" espresso machines but usually they are not cheaper then plain e61. And still some Rancilio made tank is preferable - Epocas are dirt cheap, almost :)
But if someone want cheap coffee gear then Chemex or Hario v60 is perfect option. Perfect! We use it almost daily at home. Or few times a day. :) Almost same amount of ritual like with Robot :)
Full agree on grinders - better one makes difference.
So, 20 years of coffee forums reading in one sentence: espresso machines need to be heavy and they costs.
In secret I can tell: Stradi is still on my wish list :)
And then there is one thing even or maybe especially commercial shops avoid: actual good coffee. You need to pay 2x or 3x or more for 1kg of coffee beans or you just serving black slops. Some chemistry you dilute with milk. Look it is easy to one-time pay 5k for some chrome machine but every day paying for good coffee beans is beyond most coffee shops on the globe...
If a lever machine is too finicky for you, consider an espresso machine that is actually made for home use. Now I don't mean things like Rancilio Silva and other mini machines that are actually fairly crippled because they don't allow you to adjust the pressure, but a proper one.
AFAIK (but it's been a few years since I researched this) there are exactly two: the Profitec Go and the Lelit Victoria. Both are small(ish) and warm up quickly, unlike machines intended for professional use like the La Mazocco. The difference between the two is that the Profitec has the pressure adjustment on the outside while the Lelit requires you to open the machine up. However, adjusting the pressure is mostly a one-time affair, so that's not much of a problem.
Like all machines intended for home use neither will let you (easily) pull a shot and steam milk simultaneously, because they have only one reservoir and the temperature for pulling a shot is different from the temperature for steaming. You can get simple, cheap, milk frothing devices, however, which work pretty well.
(all of this is assuming you already have a good grinder and decent coffee, which is, as everyone else said, much more important).
We have a double-boiler Profitec, but I imagine the Go is just as good for its price point. My wife is an espresso fiend, and with this machine it's the first time in our decades together that we can truly make cafe-quality espresso at home. Probably goes without saying, but: be sure to invest in a high-quality burr grinder, makes as big a diff as the espresso machine itself.
Second this! I have a $300 Flair and a $3000 Expobar (Brewtus) and yet sometimes I feel like I pull more god shots from the Flair than the Brewtus. I now recommend Flairs to everyone
Except it's not so easy to get your hands on one these days. They are constantly out of stock. (IIRC they are basically now hand made by a guy out of the UK).
I get the appeal of manual levers to espresso enthusiasts but would strongly dissuade beginners from starting with one. When you are learning to dial in a shot what you want is consistency and reproducibility which is the opposite of what you get with a manual lever.
Also it doesn't steam milk so you need to figure out a separate solution for steaming if you want to make a flat white/cappuccino/latte/etc.
That's not to say you should dump thousands of dollars into a La Marzocco, but there are plenty of entry level machines in the $300-500 range that would suit a beginner just fine.
I feel like this is where narrative/marketing does something independent of actual results. I mean, I'm sure a good engineer can figure out the fluid dynamics/pressures/seals/filtration reasonably easily.
A lot of the appeal of the older models, besides the brand name, is the beautiful design. It's like a functional work of art. As a brand that stood the test of time, LM's are also easy to restore too.
Yeah, you can get a cheaper machine, but it's not going to look as cool (this is subjective of course).
Since the thread is full of coffee enthusiasts: I recently stepped outside my espresso-only routine and started appreciating V60 and Origami pour-overs. It's been great realizing how much depth there is outside of espresso. Where does the rest of HN crowd land on pour-overs?
I like the idea of a no bypass brewer, like the ceado hoop. It's somewhat more efficient with coffee and more consistent, plus it doesn't benefit from any specific type of kettle or any type of technique. You just pour the water and wait. The shape prevents it from fitting on every mug/carafe, and that's annoying.
I've been eying a hario switch to try something new. The chemex gets marks from me for design & size when I need to make a big pot for guests.
I use a Melitta pour over cone, a Baratza grinder, a kettle with a temp control, and a spoon. Once in a while, I'll get out the French press. Good coffee doesn't really need to be complicated. You just need decent fresh beans and a little care.
My espresso routine is a strong Americano made with two doubles and a little bit of water (I think I may get some hate for the Americano?). I like it, but it does take a little while to measure, grind, pull, clean, etc. If I don’t feel like going through the whole routine, then a strong V60 pour over is a great substitute. 25-30 grams of the same beans, fairly finely ground, at a 1:13-1:15 ratio works well. Not quite as rich or as pleasant a mouthfeel as the Americano, but good.
Fruity Kenyans and Ethiopians by V60 or Chemex, classic Italian on the espresso machine, the way $deity intended. Acidic espresso is gross, but the juicy acidic coffees shine as pour-overs.
Try something like a Hario switch, it's an interesting blend of immersion and percolation brewing and you can even make different recipes that are unique to the combination of both, say 15 seconds immersion then flip the switch and 30 seconds of percolation.
Italian design from some of these eras is unmatched. A new LMLM is beautiful, but even the budget home espresso machines from Gaggia used to take it more seriously. A Gaggia classic pro [0] that you can buy today looks clean but boring, but previous era Gaggia Baby [1] would look amazing on any countertop or even as an objet d'art. The lines of the Gaggia Espresso [2] are reminiscent of a Ferrari Testarossa.
Just upgraded to the Linea Mini after dreaming about it for almost 10 years - I actually used to have a two group ex-commercial machine in my kitchen that I got 15 years ago, so people are shocked when I tell them this machine was a big downsize from my old one!
Part of the reason I bought new is that they are so expensive on the second hand market here - so I’m not too worried that I’ll get most of my money back if I upgrade to something else in 10-15 years.
I’m going to overhaul the old commercial machine and will probably get a bit more than what I paid for it so not complaining!
I just overhauled a la marzocco sitting in my kitchen. People often inquire about whether it's worth buying an espresso machine for the home, or if it's a good investment as a coffee connoisseur.
My reply is always that it was the best money I've ever spent and the worst investment I've ever made. It's a lifestyle choice, and a questionable one at that. But one I'd make again every time given the opportunity.
We need a Vevor-style innovator to come in to the specialty appliances market. “Durable goods” needs a shot in the vein. Buy it for life washing machines and dryers that efficiently make clothes clean and are repairable, not an innovation engine or race to the bottom cost-cutting extravaganza.
People will buy a $500 espresso machine. They buy $300 water filters and dough mixers and dehydrators and on and on. Yes, it is a single-tasker but Starbucks requires a salary of $255K USD to enable a $7USD/day coffee habit.
I’ll teach myself to fish every time, given the option to buy a pole.
I spent a thousand bucks on a La Marzocco Linea 3AV back in 2006. I have yet to go through the hassle of plumbing it in and wiring it up. It takes up a ridiculous amount of counter space, and after I hurt my back by lifting a La Marzocco Linea 3AV onto the counter about 20 years ago, I haven't been able to move it to storage or get it somewhere to sell it to someone else.
50 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 77.5 ms ] threadNew rule should be La Marzocco judges every barista on their skills before being able to flip a paddle, which requires a bespoke NFC card linked to their certification.
Yes I’m salty about the amount of aesthetic cafes that have no idea what to do about their coffee program because all they care about is being a hip third space.
But the user experience is remarkably simple. Turn the knob left to start the flow of water, turn the other way to stop. Move the dial to steam/froth milk. Fantastic default water pressure and even better tasting coffee. It’s a machine that will last a decade if not longer.
Goddamnit, why the fuck can't we just have a machine that fucking does everything we need it to, on its own? An espresso machine requires a fucking app? Goddamnit.
Yes, I realize nothing about this comment is constructive.
I agree wholeheartedly with those who say the coffee beans, the grinder and the barista are more important than the machine.
Nowadays at home I use a very simple Bialetti Brikka with exactly 200 ml of water and 20 g of coffee. God shots every single time.
Even can adjust temperature and shot water volume...
Still works exactly the same and it's what makes me want to get up from the bed even on Mondays.
I have (and love) my little Cafelat Robot [1]. It is small, draws no electricity, and relies upon my practiced hands to push preheated water through the coffee puck. There is nothing to get between me and the experience of making great espresso. I can feel the pressure, I can hear the stream of espresso, I can effortlessly adjust the flow in response to what the extraction is telling my senses.
Instead of a button press, pulling a shot is now a tactile experience that engages the senses. When the pull is done, I am primed to enjoy the results.
Yes, before getting an expensive commercial-style machine, consider what’s on the other end of the spectrum. Full manual has its benefits, both practical and aesthetic.
Plus, the money you will save will let you buy a better grinder. And that makes all the difference.
[1] http://www.cafelat.com/robot.html
We got a Flair manual espresso maker after our Gaggia Classic crapped out after a year (hard water buildup, probably). I de-scaled, replaced some parts, still didn't work.
Agreed. I have a Pavoni Europiccola, and it's made approximately ~11,000 espresso shots (about half of those ended up as milk-based beverages). It makes excellent coffee, and I live in a place where there are a _lot_ of good coffee places around to compare to.
The maintenance is something I do myself, with a few small & inexpensive tools, and a few gaskets I need to replace. The machine will likely outlive me, which is a rare thing to say these days.
> make sure you have a good grinder first
The mercurial success of Hot Dog on a Stick has taught us that the choices of uniform and workers are factors!
However, it's not the machine for me. I got it when I was deeply getting into coffee, and I'm coming from a scientific background so I wanted to do proper testing of my extractions. That's not really possible with a lever machine. Shots are inherently not reproducible, it's very difficult to get the same pressure from one shot to the next, even with the pressure gauge.
If that doesn't bother you and you're just happy to get decent espresso from a beautiful looking machine, then absolutely go for a lever machine.
But if you have scientific tendencies, if you want to properly test and compare flavors between between and brew ratios, it's not for you.
A prosumer electric machine will give you way more consistent results, although you won't be able to adjust pressure you'll still be able to adjust everything else.
And of course, if you want to steam milk then a lever machine can't do that either.
Nope. I agree about enjoyment factor but still: no. Unless you are single and don't like cappu's.
With lever machines it's going like this: you turn it on, wait few minutes, pull espresso... and it is too cold. You pull second and third and those can be good but by 4th espressos are too hot so they are bitter. So it is time to turn off your lever mini-espresso machine... And milk frothing ? n/c
Oh, and boiler size in "lever" machines :) La Pavoni Stradivari is 16... But what you do when boiler is empty ? You have solid piece of metal with temp 90-100 C, how you like to unscrewing and refiling it ? :) And then 5 minutes of warming it to 90's again...
Now cost... 1k up to 2k dollars for lever. So when "many starts" ? For 2k-3k you have more available machines then you want to choose from :>
And belive me: you _want_ a plumbed one. So we are almost in "commercial" territory, there is no way around it.
There are now new generations of "lab" espresso machines but usually they are not cheaper then plain e61. And still some Rancilio made tank is preferable - Epocas are dirt cheap, almost :)
But if someone want cheap coffee gear then Chemex or Hario v60 is perfect option. Perfect! We use it almost daily at home. Or few times a day. :) Almost same amount of ritual like with Robot :)
Full agree on grinders - better one makes difference.
So, 20 years of coffee forums reading in one sentence: espresso machines need to be heavy and they costs.
In secret I can tell: Stradi is still on my wish list :)
And then there is one thing even or maybe especially commercial shops avoid: actual good coffee. You need to pay 2x or 3x or more for 1kg of coffee beans or you just serving black slops. Some chemistry you dilute with milk. Look it is easy to one-time pay 5k for some chrome machine but every day paying for good coffee beans is beyond most coffee shops on the globe...
AFAIK (but it's been a few years since I researched this) there are exactly two: the Profitec Go and the Lelit Victoria. Both are small(ish) and warm up quickly, unlike machines intended for professional use like the La Mazocco. The difference between the two is that the Profitec has the pressure adjustment on the outside while the Lelit requires you to open the machine up. However, adjusting the pressure is mostly a one-time affair, so that's not much of a problem.
Like all machines intended for home use neither will let you (easily) pull a shot and steam milk simultaneously, because they have only one reservoir and the temperature for pulling a shot is different from the temperature for steaming. You can get simple, cheap, milk frothing devices, however, which work pretty well.
(all of this is assuming you already have a good grinder and decent coffee, which is, as everyone else said, much more important).
I get the appeal of manual levers to espresso enthusiasts but would strongly dissuade beginners from starting with one. When you are learning to dial in a shot what you want is consistency and reproducibility which is the opposite of what you get with a manual lever.
Also it doesn't steam milk so you need to figure out a separate solution for steaming if you want to make a flat white/cappuccino/latte/etc.
That's not to say you should dump thousands of dollars into a La Marzocco, but there are plenty of entry level machines in the $300-500 range that would suit a beginner just fine.
Yeah, you can get a cheaper machine, but it's not going to look as cool (this is subjective of course).
I've been eying a hario switch to try something new. The chemex gets marks from me for design & size when I need to make a big pot for guests.
0 - https://coffeegeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Gaggia-Cla...
1 - https://live.staticflickr.com/5749/20930782499_f47f18391a_b....
2 - https://preview.redd.it/i-call-your-oldies-and-raise-this-19...
Part of the reason I bought new is that they are so expensive on the second hand market here - so I’m not too worried that I’ll get most of my money back if I upgrade to something else in 10-15 years.
I’m going to overhaul the old commercial machine and will probably get a bit more than what I paid for it so not complaining!
My reply is always that it was the best money I've ever spent and the worst investment I've ever made. It's a lifestyle choice, and a questionable one at that. But one I'd make again every time given the opportunity.
>>> The La Marzocco
yeah yeah, I know it's the official machine name and it's another language and whatnot, but it just translate to "The The Marzocco"
People will buy a $500 espresso machine. They buy $300 water filters and dough mixers and dehydrators and on and on. Yes, it is a single-tasker but Starbucks requires a salary of $255K USD to enable a $7USD/day coffee habit.
I’ll teach myself to fish every time, given the option to buy a pole.