Any QWERTY or QWERTY-inspired keyboard (layout) is silly.
Switching to orto without solving a real bottleneck is like changing Opel to Porshe but keep using a set of square wheels. Of course the car will run better, but...
I have a moonlander and love it for typing. My issue is that I use my mouse a bunch as well, and find it awkward to switch my right hand to the ouse and back again. Does the touchpad work better for this?
As someone who's tried several keyboards, a key feature I've found myself unable to go without is contouring of the keyboard. Keyboards like Kinesis Advantage 2, Kinesis Advantage 360 and the Glove 80 essentially. I've personally found it the biggest gain to reducing strain on my left hand.
After a decade of exploring various mechanical keyboards (a few form factors, but mostly exploring the switches), I settled on a Topre Realforce around 2016 and fell in love. I later learned of the Topre silent switches (often branded as "Type-S"), and have used those ever since over many few boards: a HHKB, a Leopold FC660C with a PCB swap for programmable layers, various revisions of the Realforce.
I used a friend's ErgoDox a few years ago, and quite liked it, but what holds me back is the Topre switches. If only it was feasible to acquire individual Topre switches and put them onto a custom PCB...
Here's hoping someone on HN will swoop in and tell me "It's totally possible! Just _____!"
Same. I used to be on keyboard forums, looking for the holy grail. Eventually I tried Topre switches a bit more than 10 years ago and haven't ever looked back.
I'm using a HHKB Pro JP (although I've got japanese family I don't speak japanese): because the japanese version has got a narrower space bar and more modifiers. So I configured to have, for example, an "Hyper" key. Also for the space bar is narrower, the modifiers are easier to reach with the thumbs.
I decided to camp on this because my thinking went like this: the country of Japan and the language of japanese is unlikely to disappear, so it's very probable that I'll be able to buy Topre keyboards with that exact layout for a very long time.
Same thing: I cannot get into the MX switches (I own a few nice Cherry keyboard, like the elusive split Cherry MX-5000).
Oh you mean… OK. The one on my 2008 unibody MacBook, which I likely put the most hours in on of any of them. Then the one on my ancient and lovely Thinkpad T240 — one of the most pragmatically delightful computers ever — and probably the N33SX I owned in 1992.
The keyboard on the M1 Max MBP is quite nice, too.
I have a Moonlander but I could never get used to it, even when remapping some keys so that tab is where my muscle memory expects it to be. But maybe trying to use it for both windows (play) and macos (work) was a problem. I should give it another go. Of course another issue may be that I'm very much a mouse-and-keyboard person instead of a keyboard wizard.
I should get an alternative to my old compact / flat apple keyboard one day though. It's been going strong for nearly a decade.
It might also be that you just don’t want or need an ortholinear layout, plenty of people don’t. If you like the split design and programmability of the Moonlander but not the layout and associated relearning curve, I can recommend the UHK as a good choice.
IMHO the persistence of Model M (now Unicomp) worship is a meme. Yes a chunky Buckling Spring mechanism is a very unique and "fun" feel, but that doesn't mean it's actually good to do a lot of typing on in terms of ergonomics or speed. So what of it? It's a novelty item, not the ultimate keyboard.
I think, to a degree, ergonomics are a complete package and sound can be part of it.
I tend to err on the side of loud-click switches (Alps/Matias, buckling spring, Gateron Melodic or Kailh Box switches lately) in part because I beat a series of late-1990s dome keyboards to death because I needed some sound to feel like a key was registering.
A family member has a light linear board basically because he wanted a Pride-exploded-on-his-desktop lightshow and it's very awkward for me to use.
My fave keyboard is the IBM Model M SSK. I started out with the full sized Model M, but the keypad got to be a bit too much and as I was making several geographical moves as a young person, I wanted something that saved space on my desk.
In a way, I agree with you that buckling spring keyboards are a novelty now but back then they were a revelation, and once you start using a keyboard with high tactile feedback and positive keyclick you won't want to go back.
I still have my Model M SSK, but these days I use a LoFree Flow84, which is a smoother, quieter experience. And it has absolutely the best space bar I've ever used on any keyboard.
Or PERIBOARD-413 if you need steeper angle. Perixx keyboards are cheap (and you’ll feel this cheapness every time you use them) but that’s why they are so good: a low-barrier entry to try out ergonomic keyboards before moving on to something more premium.
My Kinesis Freestyle 2 will always be the greatest ergo keyboard I've ever owned - with cables. I can tilt at 5, 10, 15 degree angles. I can move the two parts differently (and do), and with the risers, I can tilt it 90 degrees - which I'm never doing. The flexibility is perfect for me, so I keep one at home, and one in the office.
I really didn't enjoy the cheap plastic construction of the Moonlander. I had two of them for home and work. I even modded a mousepad onto the wristrests to make it more comftable.
But in the end the housing being out of plastic, it creaked, wobbled and just was not satisfying to type on.
I came from premium mechnical keyboards with solid steel or aluminum construction.
I ended up with the Neo Ergo, a middle ground. Not as ergonomic, but solid feel, no plastic and great looks too.
I find it strange that people who start caring about ergonomics settle for Ergodox, Moonlander and other halfway there solutions when Kinesis, Glove80, Maltron who have put in real ergonomic research exist..
I know, right? I feel every keyboard warrior goes through stages where each stage imposes a "no return" point - mechanical, split, concaved. I've tried so many boards, yet these three factors invariable remain important. There are many things I dislike about my Advantage 360 - it's absolutely not suitable for travel, even taking it from the desk to the couch is a hassle; there are too many keys (the halves definitely never needed to be this big); firmware patching is wonky (I have the ZMK variant); etc.
Yet, that is the only class of boards that allow me typing without getting wrist and neck pain for 14-16 hours. Over the years I owned like a dozen boards from KinesisErgo - I started with Advantage models, then Advantage II, then I bought Freestyle for my kid, then pre-ordered 360, etc. In-between I tried Glove80, Mistel, Ergodox, Vortex Pok3r, and some others.
I am also sad that I have discovered the importance of the choosing the right switches way too late. I highly recommend getting to know your boards and the types of switches you can install on them, and then get a switch tester. Finding just the right type is absolutely worth it.
Going to such a different form factor feels enough like relearning to type that I found it also to be a good time to learn a better layout than qwerty.
When you didn't learn to type properly, relearning to type can be a very difficult task; re-learning on a split keyboard is particularly unforgiving. Around three weeks into re-learning I was convinced I would never learn properly and that I'd wasted a lot of time and money (I was freelancing at the time) on something that wouldn't help me eat, never mind sleep.
Two weeks later I was back up to normal typing speeds, a month after that I was faster than ever. Two months or so after that, my back pain was gone.
Of course, my back pain was caused by sitting lopsided - something an overdominant hand on a standard keyboard pushes you towards. No amount of exercise and posture correction was solving it - but when the true cause was resolved it cleared up (with exercise) very quickly.
Reminds me of the first time I got to sit in an Actually Good chair that came with a new job. My back was killing me for the first couple weeks as the decades-old knots undid themselves.
I got to relive it when I went back to crappy office chairs at my next gig.
I learnt to type on an Acorn Archimedes 3000 which had Ctrl to the left of A. I was so happy to find HHKBs in the late 00s had the same feature and have been using once since. I wouldn't mind never having a CapsLock again.
I don't think that's ever happening. They're still using a layout that puts I and O next to the numbers row as a remnant of the era where these letters were used as numbers. Can't blame the laptop manufacturers either. Masses are going to come out with pitchforks if any major laptop manufacturer changes anything with the keyboard.
Well, as a bog-standard person, I use Logitech MX Keys Mini 2 (with Bolt support).
It's good enough for typing for long sessions and reliable enough to type on without much thinking.
It has great features though. Automatic backlight and standby via hall & ambient light sensors, great key texture and weight, scissor switches instead of bog-standard membrane, etc.
It's not a mechanical keyboard and not smooth as one, but it's not an enemy of fingers and hands.
Logitech's bolt receiver is great though. Encrypted, low latency and has native Linux support via Solaar.
I have 3 mechanical keyboards, but one is too big, others are not in my native layout and miss a couple of keys which I need for certain characters, so they are delegated to long coding sessions at home.
For the longest time, I was preferring Microsoft keyboards and Logitech Mice, but in the recent years, Logitech surpassed Microsoft as the better keyboard maker, and I'm very happy with their hardware.
My secret weapon is not my keyboard, but my trackball actually. I switched because of a finger pain, and it took me half a day to get used to it. It doesn't have a "heavy" scroll wheel like m705 or MX Anywhere 2 has, but it's actually much better than mice for me. Also it's much more ergonomic without being awkward.
yep. I've tried everything from a bunch of mechanical keyboards to topre keyboards and I finally just came back to the mx keys mini, the magic keyboard mini, and the logitech mechanical mini. they just feel the best over the long term and are close enough to my laptop keyboard that it doesn't feel like I'm making a big change.
Two of my mechanical keyboards are "low profile", and they are very smooth & comfortable, but they feel niche/custom enough that they need more brain power to operate.
As I noted, they're en-US layout, and I can touch type it, but I need my native alphabet and letters while typing daily, so I get them out when I'm going to code at home.
The best part of MX Keys Mini is not the switches but the materials. They are heavy duty and made to be typed on it, all day, every day. Combined with auto-layouting it has, it's a very practical device, esp. if you're using multiple different machines at the same time.
Logitech's wireless keyboards, as you know, automatically switch modifier key layouts when you switch between Mac and PC hosts.
The Ergodox was also too unstable with high tilting for me, so I search for other options. I found the Dygma Raise. Been using it for 3 years now, it is a blessing. I will buy a Raise 2 wireless for my work desk in the office too now.
I cannot fathom all my collegues who still use non ergo keyboards and mice...
Basically the only thing interesting about the ConcertMaster is that Carmack used it (and that it looks somewhat cool). As for the keyboard itself, it is just a basic OEM membrane keyboard and not that good one even. The speakers are lets say adequate for the time and size.
Interestingly, the speaker part and the keyboard part are completely separate. The "cable" consists of four separate cables (keyboard, power, line out, mic in) in a thin sleeve. Mine was supplied with AT plug on the keyboard cable and Y-adapter that converted PS2 into AT DIN and barell jack for the speaker power. The keyboard label indeed says it is powered by 9V DC, but I guess that never really happened as PS/2 is 5V no matter what various devices say.
Edit: And as for the supper hard to find nowadays part: I suspect that part of the reason is that the keyboard module inside the thing is ridiculously sensitive to even minor spills.
I have one! It's fun for retro PCs that don't have speakers or a mic, as it provides everything you need right there without having to setup the Altec Lansings.
Also LOL:
> it has the advantage of packing the best sound system I have ever come across on a keyboard
That Model M SSK looks real nice. I have not one but two Filco Majestouch 2 TKL with brown MX keys, one for 12 years and counting. They are so much heavier, nicer compared to what I got recently second hand: a WASD with a very wobbly case.
76 comments
[ 4.6 ms ] story [ 86.6 ms ] threadSwitching to orto without solving a real bottleneck is like changing Opel to Porshe but keep using a set of square wheels. Of course the car will run better, but...
I used a friend's ErgoDox a few years ago, and quite liked it, but what holds me back is the Topre switches. If only it was feasible to acquire individual Topre switches and put them onto a custom PCB...
Here's hoping someone on HN will swoop in and tell me "It's totally possible! Just _____!"
I'm using a HHKB Pro JP (although I've got japanese family I don't speak japanese): because the japanese version has got a narrower space bar and more modifiers. So I configured to have, for example, an "Hyper" key. Also for the space bar is narrower, the modifiers are easier to reach with the thumbs.
I decided to camp on this because my thinking went like this: the country of Japan and the language of japanese is unlikely to disappear, so it's very probable that I'll be able to buy Topre keyboards with that exact layout for a very long time.
Same thing: I cannot get into the MX switches (I own a few nice Cherry keyboard, like the elusive split Cherry MX-5000).
It's Topre and nothing else.
Oh you mean… OK. The one on my 2008 unibody MacBook, which I likely put the most hours in on of any of them. Then the one on my ancient and lovely Thinkpad T240 — one of the most pragmatically delightful computers ever — and probably the N33SX I owned in 1992.
The keyboard on the M1 Max MBP is quite nice, too.
The only way to top that would be someone eschewing portability for a mechanical keyboard of some kind. I would totally buy that
I should get an alternative to my old compact / flat apple keyboard one day though. It's been going strong for nearly a decade.
I tend to err on the side of loud-click switches (Alps/Matias, buckling spring, Gateron Melodic or Kailh Box switches lately) in part because I beat a series of late-1990s dome keyboards to death because I needed some sound to feel like a key was registering.
A family member has a light linear board basically because he wanted a Pride-exploded-on-his-desktop lightshow and it's very awkward for me to use.
In a way, I agree with you that buckling spring keyboards are a novelty now but back then they were a revelation, and once you start using a keyboard with high tactile feedback and positive keyclick you won't want to go back.
I still have my Model M SSK, but these days I use a LoFree Flow84, which is a smoother, quieter experience. And it has absolutely the best space bar I've ever used on any keyboard.
Edit: on second thought, I guess some people might not like the low switches?
But in the end the housing being out of plastic, it creaked, wobbled and just was not satisfying to type on.
I came from premium mechnical keyboards with solid steel or aluminum construction.
I ended up with the Neo Ergo, a middle ground. Not as ergonomic, but solid feel, no plastic and great looks too.
Yet, that is the only class of boards that allow me typing without getting wrist and neck pain for 14-16 hours. Over the years I owned like a dozen boards from KinesisErgo - I started with Advantage models, then Advantage II, then I bought Freestyle for my kid, then pre-ordered 360, etc. In-between I tried Glove80, Mistel, Ergodox, Vortex Pok3r, and some others.
I am also sad that I have discovered the importance of the choosing the right switches way too late. I highly recommend getting to know your boards and the types of switches you can install on them, and then get a switch tester. Finding just the right type is absolutely worth it.
Going to such a different form factor feels enough like relearning to type that I found it also to be a good time to learn a better layout than qwerty.
I use my own layout called hubris:
https://github.com/jpease/hubris
- nearly made me cry.
- solved my back pain.
When you didn't learn to type properly, relearning to type can be a very difficult task; re-learning on a split keyboard is particularly unforgiving. Around three weeks into re-learning I was convinced I would never learn properly and that I'd wasted a lot of time and money (I was freelancing at the time) on something that wouldn't help me eat, never mind sleep.
Two weeks later I was back up to normal typing speeds, a month after that I was faster than ever. Two months or so after that, my back pain was gone.
Of course, my back pain was caused by sitting lopsided - something an overdominant hand on a standard keyboard pushes you towards. No amount of exercise and posture correction was solving it - but when the true cause was resolved it cleared up (with exercise) very quickly.
I'd buy this keyboard again in a heartbeat.
> - solved my back pain.
Reminds me of the first time I got to sit in an Actually Good chair that came with a new job. My back was killing me for the first couple weeks as the decades-old knots undid themselves.
I got to relive it when I went back to crappy office chairs at my next gig.
Not learning to type properly is probably the best thing you can do for your wrists when typing.
Keeping fingers on home row is very bad posture for your wrists on a normal keyboard.
It's good enough for typing for long sessions and reliable enough to type on without much thinking.
It has great features though. Automatic backlight and standby via hall & ambient light sensors, great key texture and weight, scissor switches instead of bog-standard membrane, etc.
It's not a mechanical keyboard and not smooth as one, but it's not an enemy of fingers and hands.
Logitech's bolt receiver is great though. Encrypted, low latency and has native Linux support via Solaar.
I have 3 mechanical keyboards, but one is too big, others are not in my native layout and miss a couple of keys which I need for certain characters, so they are delegated to long coding sessions at home.
My secret weapon is not my keyboard, but my trackball actually. I switched because of a finger pain, and it took me half a day to get used to it. It doesn't have a "heavy" scroll wheel like m705 or MX Anywhere 2 has, but it's actually much better than mice for me. Also it's much more ergonomic without being awkward.
As I noted, they're en-US layout, and I can touch type it, but I need my native alphabet and letters while typing daily, so I get them out when I'm going to code at home.
The best part of MX Keys Mini is not the switches but the materials. They are heavy duty and made to be typed on it, all day, every day. Combined with auto-layouting it has, it's a very practical device, esp. if you're using multiple different machines at the same time.
Logitech's wireless keyboards, as you know, automatically switch modifier key layouts when you switch between Mac and PC hosts.
I cannot fathom all my collegues who still use non ergo keyboards and mice...
Interestingly, the speaker part and the keyboard part are completely separate. The "cable" consists of four separate cables (keyboard, power, line out, mic in) in a thin sleeve. Mine was supplied with AT plug on the keyboard cable and Y-adapter that converted PS2 into AT DIN and barell jack for the speaker power. The keyboard label indeed says it is powered by 9V DC, but I guess that never really happened as PS/2 is 5V no matter what various devices say.
Edit: And as for the supper hard to find nowadays part: I suspect that part of the reason is that the keyboard module inside the thing is ridiculously sensitive to even minor spills.
Also LOL:
> it has the advantage of packing the best sound system I have ever come across on a keyboard