Are you Yanks seriously not going to get this sorted out before winter? BC has moved - can at least the rest of Cascadia get their asses in gear? Come on, California, I do not want to be dealing with a north-south time zone difference with my coworkers
I really don't want the sunrise time to be 5:00 in the morning and still not have any daylight to do errands after work. I don't care what the reasons are, but if seasons change the sunset time, what's so wrong with changing it a bit more?
> the researchers estimate that permanent standard time would result in some 300,000 fewer people having suffered from a stroke and result in 2.6 million fewer people having obesity
That 2.6 million people are obese because of a 1h shorter change night in one Sunday a year is an extraordinary claim. I would love to understand how they got to this result.
In Seattle, without DST, sunrise happens at 4:11am. Because of DST, it's pushed back an hour later to a more reasonable 5:11am.
I am not awake at 4am, I have no use for sunlight at 4am, and I don't want the sun appearing that early. That hour of early sunlight is wasted for me. Plus with DST, the sun sets an hour later, at 9:11pm, a time I am actually awake, and I can actually go outside and use the extra sun.
And, with permanent DST (which is what many people are advocating for), then in winter sunrise is at 9am in Seattle, which is far too late. I do not want to drive to work in the dark, before sunrise. So I want standard time in winter, pushing sunrise an hour earlier to a more reasonable 8am.
In both situations (summer and winter), modifying the time via DST benefits me and gives me better use of sunlight.
Between this and the "Sunset time and the economic effects of social jetlag: evidence from US time zone borders" paper [0], it seems like the issue is the size of the discontinuous jump in time, not necessarily that we change the clocks. So why not "smear" the DST<=> ST transitions by having four half hour transitions, once each quarter?
My controversial idea: midnight should be where current 4AM is because 04:00 is the lowest point of human circadian rhythm. Currently we have nonsense like "1AM is technically a part of the next day but for all practical purposes it's still the previous day". Also, 24h clock should be the standard so that we can avoid discussions "is 12AM noon or midnight".
I live in a hot desert climate where most of the daytime during summer is inhospitable to human activities.
We also do not observe DST at all, and that makes us a red-headed stepchild in America.
I have longed for a system here where summertime means a 12-hour DST: everyone sleeps all day and then goes to work/school in the coolness and darkness of nighttime. I absolutely love chilling outside in the dark when the lows are in the 70s, 80s.
Time zones were invented because of railroads, and all of the time/date related troubles we have today is because modern urban technology is 100% fake artifice that denies the contours of the natural world, not to mention globalism that denies contours of local culture and seeks to cram everyone and everything into rigidly defined boxes.
In Japan, if you get on a 1 hour train just before midnight, the printed ticket will say something like "23:05" for the embarkment time, and "24:05" for the disarmament. Same date for both - the clocks can just go beyond 24 hours.
Spend enough time out late in Japan, and you'll see hour 24, 25, even 26.
It's pretty astounding to me the number of pro-DST advocates in this forum. If you had hundreds of daily jobs on your platform and you happen to have some regular requirement to change them in unison, if a junior engineer said "let's just change the system clock to adjust for when we want the jobs to run", you would say no, because while it might be easy compared to changing the config for each of the jobs, the risk of ongoing errors, side effects, introduction of jobs that need to fixed in absolute time that you have to make the inverse change... It's a system nightmare.
With DST, there are actually 2 new concepts: ambiguous time (if the clock rolls back) and invalid time (if the clock jumps forward).
Java and Ruby work differently. Java would simply round the invalid time to the closest valid time IIRC. Ruby would accurately raise the InvalidTime exception. Same behaviors for an ambiguous time.
Chile is actually the country that will cause tricky issue in a system because they adjust DST at midnight... so there is one day a year where its midnight is considered invalid time. If we are building a system that depends on a day's boundary, then we will encounter this nightmarish issue where one of the days must start at 1am instead of midnight.
Honestly, I hate daylight savings time because I don't get enough night. I like being awake at night, but I also like going to bed pretty early. Winter is fine, but summer is bad enough without layering DST on top of it.
The topic always feels like a typical propaganda push to me; the constant sensationalist articles, people constantly bemoaning it when in reality having to change your clocks by an hour twice a year is the most trivial, irrelevant thing to spend any energy/attention caring about, but I can't for the life of me figure out what the propaganda angle actually is. How does some group benefit from getting rid of it? Or is the negative messaging, creating an us-vs-them argument about even the most random of issues, increasing conflict/division in society, the angle, and they don't even care about getting rid of it?
Even in Southern Europe the winter day is 2+2 hours less than the summer. Not only I am PRO-DST but I advocate for a full two hour change. It's not 20th century any more. Most jobs start later, people want to enjoy after job and LEDs offer bright light if needed. Tell the Spaniards where the sun sets later that the Dutch.
DST is bad because it changes the clocks in huge jumps. Very poor for people's health. Noticeably increases excess deaths.
Fixed clocks are bad because they don't track the sunlight.
We should change the clocks by 10 minutes, every month. Keep dawn at roughly the same time every day, say 06:30. Add enough time zones so that dawn will always be within 10 minutes of 06:30 at the equator for a given longitude.
28 comments
[ 3.9 ms ] story [ 47.7 ms ] threadDid they get several cities to participate?
That 2.6 million people are obese because of a 1h shorter change night in one Sunday a year is an extraordinary claim. I would love to understand how they got to this result.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_time_observation_in_...
Possibly another example of the old Chesterton's Fence.
Have a look at the sunset/sunrise graph for northern parts of the US https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/seattle
In Seattle, without DST, sunrise happens at 4:11am. Because of DST, it's pushed back an hour later to a more reasonable 5:11am.
I am not awake at 4am, I have no use for sunlight at 4am, and I don't want the sun appearing that early. That hour of early sunlight is wasted for me. Plus with DST, the sun sets an hour later, at 9:11pm, a time I am actually awake, and I can actually go outside and use the extra sun.
And, with permanent DST (which is what many people are advocating for), then in winter sunrise is at 9am in Seattle, which is far too late. I do not want to drive to work in the dark, before sunrise. So I want standard time in winter, pushing sunrise an hour earlier to a more reasonable 8am.
In both situations (summer and winter), modifying the time via DST benefits me and gives me better use of sunlight.
They do, which is why only 45 countries observe DST.
25 observe it partially.
And the rest, roughly ~125 countries do not.
Historically, ~140 countries did.
To put this into perspective, only about 1.2B people out of 8.3B observe it today. Which puts you into a very small <15% minority.
[0]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31030116/
We also do not observe DST at all, and that makes us a red-headed stepchild in America.
I have longed for a system here where summertime means a 12-hour DST: everyone sleeps all day and then goes to work/school in the coolness and darkness of nighttime. I absolutely love chilling outside in the dark when the lows are in the 70s, 80s.
https://m.xkcd.com/2594/
Time zones were invented because of railroads, and all of the time/date related troubles we have today is because modern urban technology is 100% fake artifice that denies the contours of the natural world, not to mention globalism that denies contours of local culture and seeks to cram everyone and everything into rigidly defined boxes.
Spend enough time out late in Japan, and you'll see hour 24, 25, even 26.
Java and Ruby work differently. Java would simply round the invalid time to the closest valid time IIRC. Ruby would accurately raise the InvalidTime exception. Same behaviors for an ambiguous time.
Chile is actually the country that will cause tricky issue in a system because they adjust DST at midnight... so there is one day a year where its midnight is considered invalid time. If we are building a system that depends on a day's boundary, then we will encounter this nightmarish issue where one of the days must start at 1am instead of midnight.
I really hope DST is going away soon.
Fixed clocks are bad because they don't track the sunlight.
We should change the clocks by 10 minutes, every month. Keep dawn at roughly the same time every day, say 06:30. Add enough time zones so that dawn will always be within 10 minutes of 06:30 at the equator for a given longitude.