The title should be “Never argue with your boss disrespectfully”. In front of his boss nonetheless. Arguing with your boss is fine, just don’t throw tantrums.
Have seen this myself in practise. Just like in this case it didnt end well. But this «lesson» so to speak is just the same concept in everyday life applied to work. You should generally never argue with authorities publically. It never ends well. Perhaps some free speech fanatics mean otherwise, but free speech doesn’t really exist.
> You should generally never argue with authorities publically. It never ends well. Perhaps some free speech fanatics mean otherwise, but free speech doesn’t really exist.
This is not so much about free speech (because if it was, the problem wouldn't exist so much in countries that have a different concept of free speech than the USA), but rather that a scientific education strongly nudges you into becoming a "truth-seeker", and in pursuit of this argue for your point.
This is why in particular geeks/nerds love to argue with their boss when they believe he isn't correct.
So, I rather fault employees that they look for employees with a university degree, while in reality they want employees that don't want to start scientific disputes with their both (i.e. exactly what the scientific education at a university drills you towards).
If unis main job was to argue for truth you would have a quite different world. Unis main role these days is to make sure you regurgitate whatever they preach and that's it. That's why most politicians are actors informally and formally.
In East Asia, particularly in Korea, there is a term called 'ganeon' (諫言, remonstration). It refers to speaking up when a superior's approach is wrong, in order to correct it.
But does a East Asian Confucian perspective always require it? Not necessarily.
From the Confucian viewpoint, an organization is not simply an arena for individual logical debates. Everyone has their own role and position, and when those roles collapse, the order of the community collapses.
'A superior must decide like a superior. A subordinate must remonstrate and support like a subordinate.'
What the OP's post did was not just make the boss look wrong. It declared that the boss 'could not function as a boss.' That's why the colleagues felt fear. It wasn't 'technically correct.' It was 'that person can publicly destroy the team's hierarchy.'
In Confucian terms, this is called 'remonstration without propriety.'
Good remonstration usually involves speaking privately first, respecting the other person's social face, and presenting options while preserving the form that the superior is the decision-maker. Those options should include risks and alternatives, so that it leads toward the direction you want.
In other words, you start by acknowledging that the boss's point is valid, then frame your disagreement as a risk you are worried about, but you're concerned about certain risks. If you say it that way, team members will later remember that you warned them, and the boss can't avoid responsibility either.
Of course, the boss also needs to have the right 'virtue' for that position. They need to listen to why subordinates object, and have the ability to make technical judgments. Storming out of a meeting saying 'I don't need this shit' is not boss-like behavior, so in an East Asian perspective, both sides are at fault. But many would see the subordinate who shattered the other's face as more at fault.
And of course, human relationships don't always have a right answer. I don't always follow this myself either—I fight with clients every day.
The article seems to be about arguing with your boss in _public_. Having a fight with anyone in public in a professional environment is pretty intense behaviour. Not saying I've never done it, but it's not usually productive. It takes a lot of skill to get things done your way without alienating people. We should always be careful of how we "debate" in a professional context. Discussion habits picked up on HN translate poorly to Slack.
Arguing with your boss in private, now that's a completely different deck of Magic cards. Totally helpful, productive behaviour if done respectfully and constructively. You're there to solve problems together, having differences of opinion is natural. Thrash it out between you in a 1:1, book time to engage and brainstorm.
Be nice, be prepared, find solutions that move things forward without bruising egos, try and get them to think it was their idea.
Importantly, you're coming to a decision in which they get the final say, because it's their team. Once a decision is made, after consultation, you just gotta roll with it. Don't bitch, or moan, or rub it in if things go wrong. Chain of command. One of these days you'll be there too.
If you keep on "losing" or finding yourself in constant conflict with your boss, that suggests a deeper problem. Jobs are like relationships, they've gotta work both ways. Maybe this isn't the right one for you (or them, but just as likely you).
Anyway. Never argue with your boss _in public_. Debate in private, come to a decision and move forward.
Never do that if you're working under a toxic boss, in which case arguing in public is better if at all but one should anyways be working hard to find a new boss!!!
There's always time for lessons learned, but gloating isn't mature or helpful.
Honestly, I've never stuck around with a bad boss long enough to get into this sort of situation with them. Life is too short.
Most managers I've had a long-term relationship with have been, at worst, overwhelmed or utterly beholden to bad priorities set further up the chain. They all have been decent enough folks, trying to do their best for the organisation.
You gotta spend all your time with these people. Rubbing your correctness in their face ain't going to make either of your work lives better.
Try doing the same with your partner, see how that goes.
> The article seems to be about arguing with your boss in _public_.
This is the main reason that most abuse happens in companies. Discussions are kept private so nobody can add 1+1 and see how toxic are certain bosses.
This also enables misalignments and lies. I have seen bosses that are will say one thing to one employee and a different one to the next and even a different one upwards to leadership.
Lack of transparency is a red flag for any company. Some personal matters can be discussed privately, but when all discussions are private abuse and chaos are guranteed.
I agree, though it should be said arguing in public is for people willing to accept the consequences of their actions (retaliation, getting fired etc). That's why ideally you should arrange your life (mentally or materially) in such a way that allows you to act without the fear of being fired, if possible obviously.
> Debate in private, come to a decision and move forward.
This norm is terrible. It's a chief reason California tech companies become dysfunctional. Debate spreads common knowledge and ensures ideas get tested before execution. Hiding discussions is selfish, antisocial behavior that prioritizes your social image over idea quality and everyone's benefit. If you're working for someone who can't tolerate debate, leave.
It's weak leadership indeed that feels like debate undermines authority. A recipe for hell is
1. eradicating formal levels and hierarchy so everyone is "equal" and "ideas win", then
2. establishing a norm that debate never occur in public so that "ideas win" doesn't actually threaten whatever tyranny-of-structurelessness primate power dynamics emerge.
I don't know. I mean, "never argue" is not a good maxim, imo.
But sure, ultimately your role is to provide your opinion as an expert, but you should step aside if your manager decides otherwise after hearing you. I think it's also correct: you are responsible for the decisions you make (which is true for you and your manager too).
So I think the author should have softened the discussion rather than going for a full confrontation. The boss surely didn't react rationally, or didn't surface their reasoning properly.
But being able to argue with your superiors (and peers) "the right way" is one of the most important skills to have in the workplace imo.
"I realize that my boss and I could have probably worked out some face-saving compromise behind closed doors before having any sort of public discussions."
Absolutely this. Nothing wrong with disagreeing, but don't have a screaming row with your boss in front of the team.
I disagree with the final outcome that's just in private. If it's an open brainstorm to decide on solution, you don't have time to book the secret 1 to 1.
I think it's just respecting hierarchy, disagree, raise your concerns, if your boss overrules just accept it, you made your concerns known, they and the team heard of you, if they proceed anyways they accept the risk.
No point in forcing yourself to be the shot caller when it's not your job or responsibility to make the final decision.
Accepting the team consensus and respecting hierarchy is part of the game, unless you are a business owner, you are paid to do as told as an expert give your opinion. Nothing more you can do beyond that.
> how could they trust me as a member of their team? I might turn on them next.
This is also why you shouldn't gossip negatively about anyone, and you shouldn't make jokes about employee termination. People will view you as a threat. The threat perception will become dislike and they won't even know why they dislike you, they just do. Then they will hallucinate that you're a hopeless poor performer whatever your performance actually is, because they've already emotionally decided that you're awful.
I think there is a strong cultural effects to whether this is true.
I've worked in multinationals and I've noticed that in the US ( east coast in particular ) it's much more hierarchical - where arguing with your boss in public could be a firing offence.
> I've worked in multinationals and I've noticed that in the US ( east coast in particular ) it's much more hierarchical - where arguing with your boss in public could be a firing offence.
> This is less so in Europe.
On the other hand, in big German companies there often exist more hierarchy levels. In this sense, I would rather call German companies more hierarchical.
The difference is (also from your description) rather that in the USA, bosses often expect their underlings to be much more "ideologically aligned" to their principles [1], which they often don't state/disclose from beginning. Enforcing such an ideological alignment is much less accepted in big German companies (at least in the lower hierarchical levels).
---
[1] In German, there exists the word "[die] Linientreue" for this, which can literally translated to "line loyalty". Dictionaries give the translation "true to party principles", but I would claim that this "politically connotated" translation is rather restrictive.
100%, don't argue with your boss. Sometimes, depending on how they phrased a statement or proposal, you can present contradictory facts but never claim to have the answer.
Either the boss wants to hear your opinion or they don't. You need to look at body language, tone and wording to decide. In any case, they decide.
Disagreeing in front of other employees is especially risky... It can work in your favor sometimes, but only if it serves the boss... For example, you might be providing the boss with an opportunity to demonstrate humility over a topic which they don't pride themselves on. If the boss switches and agrees with you, can improve your image in front of other employees and the boss gets to look like they are a good listener and rational decision maker. Everyone wins.
>
Either the boss wants to hear your opinion or they don't. You need to look at body language, tone and wording to decide.
Not everybody is adept at interpreting such subtle signs. A particular problem is when bosses say things like "Your opinion is appreciated.", "I value honest feedback.", blabla, but give different body signs.
In my opinion, this problem is less marked in Germany than the USA, because people tend to use of such sugar-coated lies much less in Germany.
Fully agree. Anyone can get the signals wrong. I guess you should watch how other employees (who have been around for longer) interact with the boss. If everyone is always praising the boss and never criticizing, there's a reason it's like this.
I feel like the real takeaway should be "don't make a competition out of a technical discussion". A culture that doesn't allow openly debating technical decisions sounds like one I wouldn't want to be part of.
Do it respectfully and accept the decision if it goes against your advice. Your boss is either aware of issues you are not, or might otherwise have good reasons. In any case there is very seldom 1 "best" solution to a problem.
If your boss is genuinely an idiot, then still accept the decision, but start looking for a new job or assignment to a different team.
Think it also depends on the nature of the disagreement. If it is something judgemental then it makes sense to back down earlier. The boss is the boss after all and he/she might be privy to additional knowledge. If they are straight up wrong in a technical sense then agreeing with the wrong thing is a bigger problem.
Disclaimer: Work culture has changed since 2009 and obviously none of this applies if you work with/for someone who can't take any criticism or disagreement and expects subordination.
I think the issue is not disagreeing with one's boss, but what relationship you have with your boss.
There's a big difference between hostility and wanting to win against the other person vs. trying to find the best possible solution for the team, and clashing on what that should look like.
Some of this is about communication (continually centering on what goal one is trying to reach and validating the other party's perspective) other stuff is basic manners (don't make a public spectacle of your disagreements, especially in front of your boss's boss), but much of it boils down to relationship skills.
I think more people in tech should understand basic relationship skills and how they apply at work. Work is more transactional than a friendship or a marriage, but the core parts still matter: everyone wants to feel seen and heard, not invalidated and attacked.
If the company culture doesn't allow you to argue you with your boss, then you can expect that your boss is not allowed to argue with his boss and so on, up to CEO level. Such companies should, in time, go bankrupt because nobody could argue, if CEO makes a bad decision, CEO operates without feedback.
On the other hand, many such companies are protected because: they are too big to fail, have political connections, have monopoly, or oligopoly.
47 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 34.0 ms ] threadThis is not so much about free speech (because if it was, the problem wouldn't exist so much in countries that have a different concept of free speech than the USA), but rather that a scientific education strongly nudges you into becoming a "truth-seeker", and in pursuit of this argue for your point.
This is why in particular geeks/nerds love to argue with their boss when they believe he isn't correct.
So, I rather fault employees that they look for employees with a university degree, while in reality they want employees that don't want to start scientific disputes with their both (i.e. exactly what the scientific education at a university drills you towards).
---
Addendum: In https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48918117 silentmafia makes a related observation:
> In academia arguing is sort of your job, or at least part of it.
But does a East Asian Confucian perspective always require it? Not necessarily.
From the Confucian viewpoint, an organization is not simply an arena for individual logical debates. Everyone has their own role and position, and when those roles collapse, the order of the community collapses.
'A superior must decide like a superior. A subordinate must remonstrate and support like a subordinate.'
What the OP's post did was not just make the boss look wrong. It declared that the boss 'could not function as a boss.' That's why the colleagues felt fear. It wasn't 'technically correct.' It was 'that person can publicly destroy the team's hierarchy.'
In Confucian terms, this is called 'remonstration without propriety.'
Good remonstration usually involves speaking privately first, respecting the other person's social face, and presenting options while preserving the form that the superior is the decision-maker. Those options should include risks and alternatives, so that it leads toward the direction you want.
In other words, you start by acknowledging that the boss's point is valid, then frame your disagreement as a risk you are worried about, but you're concerned about certain risks. If you say it that way, team members will later remember that you warned them, and the boss can't avoid responsibility either.
Of course, the boss also needs to have the right 'virtue' for that position. They need to listen to why subordinates object, and have the ability to make technical judgments. Storming out of a meeting saying 'I don't need this shit' is not boss-like behavior, so in an East Asian perspective, both sides are at fault. But many would see the subordinate who shattered the other's face as more at fault.
And of course, human relationships don't always have a right answer. I don't always follow this myself either—I fight with clients every day.
Arguing with your boss in private, now that's a completely different deck of Magic cards. Totally helpful, productive behaviour if done respectfully and constructively. You're there to solve problems together, having differences of opinion is natural. Thrash it out between you in a 1:1, book time to engage and brainstorm.
Be nice, be prepared, find solutions that move things forward without bruising egos, try and get them to think it was their idea.
Importantly, you're coming to a decision in which they get the final say, because it's their team. Once a decision is made, after consultation, you just gotta roll with it. Don't bitch, or moan, or rub it in if things go wrong. Chain of command. One of these days you'll be there too.
If you keep on "losing" or finding yourself in constant conflict with your boss, that suggests a deeper problem. Jobs are like relationships, they've gotta work both ways. Maybe this isn't the right one for you (or them, but just as likely you).
Anyway. Never argue with your boss _in public_. Debate in private, come to a decision and move forward.
Never do that if you're working under a toxic boss, in which case arguing in public is better if at all but one should anyways be working hard to find a new boss!!!
No I don't think it's how it works at all. If you want to show value you should absolutely point out you were right.
Honestly, I've never stuck around with a bad boss long enough to get into this sort of situation with them. Life is too short.
Most managers I've had a long-term relationship with have been, at worst, overwhelmed or utterly beholden to bad priorities set further up the chain. They all have been decent enough folks, trying to do their best for the organisation.
You gotta spend all your time with these people. Rubbing your correctness in their face ain't going to make either of your work lives better.
Try doing the same with your partner, see how that goes.
This is the main reason that most abuse happens in companies. Discussions are kept private so nobody can add 1+1 and see how toxic are certain bosses.
This also enables misalignments and lies. I have seen bosses that are will say one thing to one employee and a different one to the next and even a different one upwards to leadership.
Lack of transparency is a red flag for any company. Some personal matters can be discussed privately, but when all discussions are private abuse and chaos are guranteed.
My advice is not to always discuss in public, but that companies should encourage that behaviour and punish toxic management.
You made a very good point.
This norm is terrible. It's a chief reason California tech companies become dysfunctional. Debate spreads common knowledge and ensures ideas get tested before execution. Hiding discussions is selfish, antisocial behavior that prioritizes your social image over idea quality and everyone's benefit. If you're working for someone who can't tolerate debate, leave.
It's weak leadership indeed that feels like debate undermines authority. A recipe for hell is
1. eradicating formal levels and hierarchy so everyone is "equal" and "ideas win", then
2. establishing a norm that debate never occur in public so that "ideas win" doesn't actually threaten whatever tyranny-of-structurelessness primate power dynamics emerge.
Thoroughly poisonous culture.
||righteousit.com^
HaGeZi Threat Intelligence Feeds - Medium version
Therefore sorry, no vote.
In academia arguing is sort of your job, or at least part of it.
So when a supervisor can't/won't understand their student's argument, the situation feels very futile.
Probably there's examples of constructive resolutions somewhere out there
But sure, ultimately your role is to provide your opinion as an expert, but you should step aside if your manager decides otherwise after hearing you. I think it's also correct: you are responsible for the decisions you make (which is true for you and your manager too).
So I think the author should have softened the discussion rather than going for a full confrontation. The boss surely didn't react rationally, or didn't surface their reasoning properly.
But being able to argue with your superiors (and peers) "the right way" is one of the most important skills to have in the workplace imo.
Absolutely this. Nothing wrong with disagreeing, but don't have a screaming row with your boss in front of the team.
I think it's just respecting hierarchy, disagree, raise your concerns, if your boss overrules just accept it, you made your concerns known, they and the team heard of you, if they proceed anyways they accept the risk.
No point in forcing yourself to be the shot caller when it's not your job or responsibility to make the final decision.
Accepting the team consensus and respecting hierarchy is part of the game, unless you are a business owner, you are paid to do as told as an expert give your opinion. Nothing more you can do beyond that.
This is also why you shouldn't gossip negatively about anyone, and you shouldn't make jokes about employee termination. People will view you as a threat. The threat perception will become dislike and they won't even know why they dislike you, they just do. Then they will hallucinate that you're a hopeless poor performer whatever your performance actually is, because they've already emotionally decided that you're awful.
I've worked in multinationals and I've noticed that in the US ( east coast in particular ) it's much more hierarchical - where arguing with your boss in public could be a firing offence.
This is less so in Europe.
> This is less so in Europe.
On the other hand, in big German companies there often exist more hierarchy levels. In this sense, I would rather call German companies more hierarchical.
The difference is (also from your description) rather that in the USA, bosses often expect their underlings to be much more "ideologically aligned" to their principles [1], which they often don't state/disclose from beginning. Enforcing such an ideological alignment is much less accepted in big German companies (at least in the lower hierarchical levels).
---
[1] In German, there exists the word "[die] Linientreue" for this, which can literally translated to "line loyalty". Dictionaries give the translation "true to party principles", but I would claim that this "politically connotated" translation is rather restrictive.
Either the boss wants to hear your opinion or they don't. You need to look at body language, tone and wording to decide. In any case, they decide.
Disagreeing in front of other employees is especially risky... It can work in your favor sometimes, but only if it serves the boss... For example, you might be providing the boss with an opportunity to demonstrate humility over a topic which they don't pride themselves on. If the boss switches and agrees with you, can improve your image in front of other employees and the boss gets to look like they are a good listener and rational decision maker. Everyone wins.
Not everybody is adept at interpreting such subtle signs. A particular problem is when bosses say things like "Your opinion is appreciated.", "I value honest feedback.", blabla, but give different body signs.
In my opinion, this problem is less marked in Germany than the USA, because people tend to use of such sugar-coated lies much less in Germany.
Sure, I agree, for when I worried in for example Singapore, I would not agree for Scandinavia
The being direct thing only applies when they can be mean to you, not when they did something wrong.
Do it respectfully and accept the decision if it goes against your advice. Your boss is either aware of issues you are not, or might otherwise have good reasons. In any case there is very seldom 1 "best" solution to a problem.
If your boss is genuinely an idiot, then still accept the decision, but start looking for a new job or assignment to a different team.
I think the issue is not disagreeing with one's boss, but what relationship you have with your boss.
There's a big difference between hostility and wanting to win against the other person vs. trying to find the best possible solution for the team, and clashing on what that should look like.
Some of this is about communication (continually centering on what goal one is trying to reach and validating the other party's perspective) other stuff is basic manners (don't make a public spectacle of your disagreements, especially in front of your boss's boss), but much of it boils down to relationship skills.
I think more people in tech should understand basic relationship skills and how they apply at work. Work is more transactional than a friendship or a marriage, but the core parts still matter: everyone wants to feel seen and heard, not invalidated and attacked.
On the other hand, many such companies are protected because: they are too big to fail, have political connections, have monopoly, or oligopoly.