Is the true in America? I’m in the UK, and while social isolation, particularly for men is probably worse than it was, I think many, myself included, have at least one person we can turn to in times of crisis. Or am I in a bubble?
The author of this piece, Ryan Burge, typically relies data that is scoped to the US for his pieces (to the best of my knowledge). You would have to reach out to him to inquire about the UK, if any similar data is available for analysis, etc. With that said, the ARDA appears to have global data available at https://thearda.com/
> This post has been unlocked through a generous grant from the Lilly Endowment for the Association of Religion Data Archives (ARDA). The graphs you see here use data that is publicly available for download and analysis through link(s) provided in the text below.
This is absolutely true in america. My partner left me and my social life has completely collapsed. I have nobody to talk to when things get difficult. I am estranged from my father, my mother is disabled and requires increasing medical support. I'm an only child, I have no local family.
Once the floor drops out from under you there is nothing to stop the rapid decent to nothingness. There is a generation of discarded people who have nobody left. When we lose our last threads of social connection there's no way back. Beyond hopeless.
I think it helps to live in a city. The cities have their problems, they're expensive and dirty, but there are loads of older single adults, and even an introvert can sit at the same bar once a week and meet people, or go to meetups or a weekly class and slowly meet people. Hell, in bad times even chatting with a bartender was nice.
Being in your shoes in a suburban setting surrounded by families and neat little houses (or huge fields in a country setting) I imagine is hard. I'm only making assumptions.
Have you thought about traveling long weekends or abroad longer? Perfectly doable solo.
Meetups aren't as effective as you think. I have seen complaints from multiple large European cities that general social meetups don't actually result much in people exchanging contacts and meeting again in future; it feels like a one-off encounter with other human beings, and that makes it dismal. There is even a predatory industry now of for-profit social meetups because people are so lonely, and knowing that one is being exploited only makes it more dismal.
For more specialized hobby meetups, it is a common complaint that one's fellows are only met while practicing the hobby, they never become general friends that one can meet regularly with, let alone turn to in emotionally heavy times.
I wouldn't recommend solo travel as a way to socialize unless one knows the person's age. It's a sad fact that over the age of about 30-35, solo travelers (especially men) can no longer take advantage of the social opportunities of the backpacker scene; you might get a few nice chats, but most travelers will be very wary of you.
Learning how to develop a social network independently is a skill. If your partner leaving you collapses your social life, do you live in a small town where the narrative has turned against you, or did you simply rely on them to be the adult in the room and set up playdates for you like you're a child?
Go to bookclubs.com and start a book club, or join a book club, or go to a local library and do any of the social stuff. Go to a crochet club, even empty-handed, chances are the fiber arts people will have plenty to spare. These are friendships that have to be forged and worked on day in and day out to strengthen them, like a sword.
The plight can be quite real but when people say they have no social life what they're not saying is what sort of social life do they want? What do they want to do while being social with people?
>> My partner left me and my social life has completely collapsed. I have nobody to talk to when things get difficult. I am estranged from my father, my mother is disabled and requires increasing medical support. I'm an only child, I have no local family.
> Learning how to develop a social network independently is a skill. If your partner leaving you collapses your social life, do you live in a small town where the narrative has turned against you, or did you simply rely on them to be the adult in the room and set up playdates for you like you're a child?
Oh fuck your attitude and grow some empathy. Someone confesses a serious personal problem and you start lecturing them, implying they are incompetent and/or are a man-child?
Some of your advice isn't bad, but your delivery is terrible, and life is more complicated that you imply (e.g. what if he's depressed, what if his partner was controlling and didn't allow him to have an independent social life, what if he has no interest in "fiber arts", etc)?
If you have the money, you could always hire escorts. Eventually you'll find one you click with and you can develop a friendly working relationship with a beautiful woman who will listen to all your problems and if she's smart, even maybe give you a valuable outside perspective on what you're experiencing.
"There's no way back"? Only if you cannot ever form new relationships.
Look, I'm not saying it's easy. And when you're in despair, the despair makes it harder. But "impossible" and "beyond hopeless" are lies. Stop believing them. Start trying to find ways to build new relationships, even if it's slow and hard.
"There is a generation of discarded people who have nobody left. When we lose our last threads of social connection there's no way back. Beyond hopeless."
It is not hopeless. You state it yourself - there are many people like you, so maybe try and connect with them?
That sucks and I'm sure it feels hopeless. But there are ways forward you can investigate. Look for a local community you can plug into. Ease into them and after some time you will be able to make the kind of connections you need.
My personal preference is a local church but there are other options out there. Club's around a shared interest you have. Community center events in your area. It's won't be quick and it won't be easy but you can reverse this.
I don't necessarily disagree, but if you want social connection and you're willing to work at it and endure some discomfort in the process, you can find it.
From your perspective your situation is hopeless, but you can (eventually, with work) adjust your perspective and find a path toward a more satisfying existence. If you're able to work with a therapist I'd very much recommend that, and if you don't connect with your therapist find a different one. It's normal to try a few before finding the one that works for you.
Precovid social isolation was the same in US and UK. [0] This investigation have numbers that say that Brits are experiencing more social isolation than untitedstateians. [1]
This whole blog is fascinating, assuming that you're interested in the intersection between (recent) history, demographics, politics, and religion in the US.
I'm part of Freemasonry. All members are at least vested for criminal conducts, my lodge at least is very strict on background investigation, so it's easier to pick trustworthy brothers to talk to. I'm probably one the youngest members and benefitted from wisdom and patience from older brothers. I'm not a church member but that would be a good alternative.
I had a great experience when I was part of a lodge. I'm atheist and so could join a Droit Humain lodge in France (which does not require belief in a Great Architect of the Universe and is mixed). I'm now in Hong Kong but unfortunately have failed to find a lodge that doesn't require a belief in God and that is mixed (I refuse to go to a male only lodge).
It's a pity because I found freemasonry to be hugely beneficial in terms of friendship, interesting discussions and support.
Most atheists can't 'just choose' to believe in a god. This is also why most religious converts come from other religions and not non-belief. If they thought about their opinion and made that decision consciously, the suspension of disbelief is gone. Religion will just feel too unreal, artificial and human-made. It's like asking a kid to just choose to believe in Santa after they spotted their parents hiding the gifts.
Unfortunately, there are lot of politics involved in that. I'm in a traditional AF&AM lodge (male only and believe in the Great Architect of the Universe). I myself is not a Christian nor believe in any major religions. I believe praying/meditation is a private affair. I find being male only is hugely beneficial in fact. It doesn't mean that we don't have social activities with women. There's the Order of Eastern Star, and Jobs Daughters, Rainbow, etc., which we donate to and have social events with to celebrate holidays and awards, etc. They have their own supportive matriarch and sisters which is also mentally and socially beneficial for them.
My lodge is also over 90% retired-age men, a few even over 90 year old... last month July 3 members died, but younger members are joining and replacement rate is probably evens out. The thing with younger men like me is we are too busy with work and family to contribute meaningfully to the lodge's operation.
Do you go home and talk to your spouse? Do you go to church and talk with your pastor? Do you go to your therapist or to the local bar?
> Comfort with mental health care has become another facet of political sorting in the U.S.
I'm skeptical. Bars and churches and friends are way cheaper and more accessible in red states. It's hard enough to get poorer, less educated men comfortable going to the doctor, let alone a therapist.
Friend, priest, acquittance at the bar and mental health professional are 4 different roles. Your therapist is not your friend, will refuse to play that role. Your therapist is also not your religious leader and wont speak into those considerations.
And conversely, neither priest nor friend will be able to deal with actual mental health issue you have.
It depends heavily on the therapeutic relationship/bond.
As a therapist, I focus more on building rapport and establishing connection before diving into the mental health aspects. Without trust/rapport, nothing will move forward in treatment. To generalize is not the best way to put things forward.
What are your struggles? (single item or a long list)
Talk to one of these:
Close Friends
Spouse/Partner
Immediate Family Member
Mental Health Therapist
A Co-Worker
Neighbor
Religious/Spiritual Leader
"I can't pay my mortgage because I lost my job"
That's a real problem. Solution: Who will pay that mortgage? For how long?
My church, friends, possibly in-laws would pay my mortgage for about 3-6 months but after that the help runs out because the REAL problem is those 3-6 months of not looking hard enough, not taking any job, not down sizing, not moving into someone's garage, not spending beyond the budget.
> The preamble is straightforward: “How comfortable would you be talking about your mental health and emotional well-being with each of the following?"
Seems like a pretty broken premise, ranking comfort instead of what you expected to help most. Also related, people are typically more comfortable confessing to strangers or under circumstances that won't endanger an existing relationship, which seems like a big part of why confession is anonymous. Self-reporting here is probably basically the same as asking "according to your community norms, how are you supposed to answer a question like this?" without much real reveal
> ranking comfort instead of what you expected to help most
But don't we, in real times, turn to the people we're comfortable talking to? We are not machines ranking the effectiveness of our peers for best outcome, though some of us surely still weigh that! It would be nice to go the most effective route, but sometimes that brings a lot of pain, judgement, or unforseen externalities.
(and hopefully we pick our close social relationships to make us more effective too!)
> "according to your community norms ..." ... without much real reveal
It puts data to what our understanding of those norms are. I don't know if there's a bigger reveal than "yeah, people generally are pretty comfortable with their spouse"
Tbh I was surprised anyone would/could open up and have an emotional conversation with a neighbor (when looking at risk vs reward). But, there are a lot of types of neighbors too.
It's a premise you wouldn't expect, but discussing your mental health at all is a necessary first step to actually getting help comfort and stigma in discussing mental health is a huge barrier to most people. I think it makes sense to look at where and how people actually kick off the process as much as it does to look at the results of the process. After all, it's so common that it's borderline stereotypical that we see someone do something drastic that reveals that they've been struggling pretty bad for quite some time now and everyone who knows them is like "I would gladly have helped but I had no idea any of this was happening."
Right before COVID I stumbled across mens groups, they were a way I first learned I could get my underlying needs for getting seen met in a way no other mechanism in society offered.
Society was trying actually to meet this need in so many other pseudo forms, but where it fell short and what I needed was:
- a safe space to share what my experience without needing to be fixed or someone giving me unsolicited feedback
- place where competition was turned off (sports groups, board game nights, video games etc had previously been this but since they were competitive they met a different need)
- a cadence that met regularly and where space for me to speak with structure was a requirement
I liked this so much I even formed one in DC before I was pushed away for work to an abusive Dallas Capital One environment (which my men helped me navigate while my coworkers accepted the abuse being blind to it). I Highly recommend trying a mens groups, find one on Facebook or Google, or try the project mankind groups or No Mr Nice Guy’s Dr Glover runs one online. The one I was a part of longest is also open: embodied masculine (more extreme embodiment based group) but starting off get your toes wet first.
It's likely there is, though it might be difficult to find. One place you can look is the local unitarian universalists. These can vary widely, but often you'll find them open to all religions (including non-religious), and full of open, curious, non-judgemental people.
One thing about UU's is that it's not dogma based. There's nothing you have to believe to be a UU. Instead, it's covenant based. You are in the community when you adhere to the agreements of the community. These are usually things like mutual respect, deep listening, etc.
I am wary of meeting with more than about 2-3 men at a time, because men in larger groups tend to socialize through banter, toilet humor, or talking about fucking women (which I like to do sometimes but don't want to talk about); just lame topics I'd like to avoid completely. Also, even without competition, a pecking order gets established.
So, men's groups don't solve the problem of the lack of healthy regular socializing with 2-3 good friends, which for men in many countries has fallen off a cliff since the smartphone and Covid.
I find men's groups with more structure do help with those problems you described. I wouldn't be so early to dismiss and suggest considering it with an open mind. At least for me and many others I Know, men's groups with a clear order of gather to discuss, and require and ask for consent before giving advice, with that recurring meeting being the main source of socialization; do not have as much of a pecking order nor lame topics. They have more authenticity and connection with the pretense being around connection and acceptance without performance.
If you want regular socializing with 2-3 good friends though, I think the friends made from a men's group would be closer to what you are seeking than from a random hobby-based group.
I'd be curious about the results in the main graph if it included no one. That would be much more telling, because right now it appears that most people talk to at least someone.
This is a risky path. If you internalize it in unhealthy ways, you're empowering your shadow, and it will find inconvenient, self-defeating ways to express it.
To those who answer "my spouse", please think carefully about building an alternative support system if/when it happens that the mental health situation you are dealing with comes from a breakdown in ability to communicate with your spouse.
I recently went thru a rough period triggered by how my spouse was feeling. If you've both always counted on having the other ready to listen, and that's temporarily impossible for acute reasons, the shock is enormous, and almost undermined my problem solving ability to understand I needed to find a psychologist to talk to.
We're ok now, but it could have easily gotten way worse before it got better. Having a solid relationship is unfortunately not a protection from losing the security it gives you, psychologically.
I feel like "large language model" should be on these graphs. For better or for worse, it's the answer to these questions for an increasing number of people.
Talking to bots can induce psychosis in some individuals. This isn't a solved problem, nor is there a universal solution.
People need connection, but the varieties of connection are vast. What works for one person, can be terrible for another. Maybe talking to bots gives you what you need, which is great for you. But projecting your solution to everyone else is not a rational step to take.
61 comments
[ 13.1 ms ] story [ 769 ms ] thread> This post has been unlocked through a generous grant from the Lilly Endowment for the Association of Religion Data Archives (ARDA). The graphs you see here use data that is publicly available for download and analysis through link(s) provided in the text below.
Code for this post can be found at https://gist.github.com/ryanburge/0895d855fdc93c3ce26b034349...
Once the floor drops out from under you there is nothing to stop the rapid decent to nothingness. There is a generation of discarded people who have nobody left. When we lose our last threads of social connection there's no way back. Beyond hopeless.
Enjoy your bubble. america is completely fucked.
Being in your shoes in a suburban setting surrounded by families and neat little houses (or huge fields in a country setting) I imagine is hard. I'm only making assumptions.
Have you thought about traveling long weekends or abroad longer? Perfectly doable solo.
For more specialized hobby meetups, it is a common complaint that one's fellows are only met while practicing the hobby, they never become general friends that one can meet regularly with, let alone turn to in emotionally heavy times.
I wouldn't recommend solo travel as a way to socialize unless one knows the person's age. It's a sad fact that over the age of about 30-35, solo travelers (especially men) can no longer take advantage of the social opportunities of the backpacker scene; you might get a few nice chats, but most travelers will be very wary of you.
Go to bookclubs.com and start a book club, or join a book club, or go to a local library and do any of the social stuff. Go to a crochet club, even empty-handed, chances are the fiber arts people will have plenty to spare. These are friendships that have to be forged and worked on day in and day out to strengthen them, like a sword.
> Learning how to develop a social network independently is a skill. If your partner leaving you collapses your social life, do you live in a small town where the narrative has turned against you, or did you simply rely on them to be the adult in the room and set up playdates for you like you're a child?
Oh fuck your attitude and grow some empathy. Someone confesses a serious personal problem and you start lecturing them, implying they are incompetent and/or are a man-child?
Some of your advice isn't bad, but your delivery is terrible, and life is more complicated that you imply (e.g. what if he's depressed, what if his partner was controlling and didn't allow him to have an independent social life, what if he has no interest in "fiber arts", etc)?
When there is no one to care
There is someone who gives a f*ck
Who can tell you: life is very fair
It is all cause and effect
Have you even tried?
You can make your own life erect
And I’m sorry the soothsayers lied
But I care, believe me it’s true
You child, you fool
Surely the social clubs are not that few
It’s a skill just like shearing wool
Sorry for you situation and stay strong.
Look, I'm not saying it's easy. And when you're in despair, the despair makes it harder. But "impossible" and "beyond hopeless" are lies. Stop believing them. Start trying to find ways to build new relationships, even if it's slow and hard.
It is not hopeless. You state it yourself - there are many people like you, so maybe try and connect with them?
My personal preference is a local church but there are other options out there. Club's around a shared interest you have. Community center events in your area. It's won't be quick and it won't be easy but you can reverse this.
[0] https://publica.org.au/wp-content/uploads/DiJulio-et-al.-Lon...
[1] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
We're going to need a better name for them. Trumpistanians perhaps?
For example - this one about generations and trust was surprising to me: https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/gen-z-doesnt-trust-any...
or this on perception of the religiosity of holidays: https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/is-christmas-a-religio...
It's a pity because I found freemasonry to be hugely beneficial in terms of friendship, interesting discussions and support.
Do you go home and talk to your spouse? Do you go to church and talk with your pastor? Do you go to your therapist or to the local bar?
> Comfort with mental health care has become another facet of political sorting in the U.S.
I'm skeptical. Bars and churches and friends are way cheaper and more accessible in red states. It's hard enough to get poorer, less educated men comfortable going to the doctor, let alone a therapist.
Also missing from this perspective. What do people who are not from western countries do?
And conversely, neither priest nor friend will be able to deal with actual mental health issue you have.
As a therapist, I focus more on building rapport and establishing connection before diving into the mental health aspects. Without trust/rapport, nothing will move forward in treatment. To generalize is not the best way to put things forward.
https://doi.org/10.1002/jclp.23519
Is it that or is it the cost and availability?
What are your struggles? (single item or a long list)
Talk to one of these:
Close Friends
Spouse/Partner
Immediate Family Member
Mental Health Therapist
A Co-Worker
Neighbor
Religious/Spiritual Leader
"I can't pay my mortgage because I lost my job"
That's a real problem. Solution: Who will pay that mortgage? For how long?
My church, friends, possibly in-laws would pay my mortgage for about 3-6 months but after that the help runs out because the REAL problem is those 3-6 months of not looking hard enough, not taking any job, not down sizing, not moving into someone's garage, not spending beyond the budget.
Seems like a pretty broken premise, ranking comfort instead of what you expected to help most. Also related, people are typically more comfortable confessing to strangers or under circumstances that won't endanger an existing relationship, which seems like a big part of why confession is anonymous. Self-reporting here is probably basically the same as asking "according to your community norms, how are you supposed to answer a question like this?" without much real reveal
How much does the author owe you? My guess is zero.
If he didn't measure what you wanted to be measured ... that's your problem.
But don't we, in real times, turn to the people we're comfortable talking to? We are not machines ranking the effectiveness of our peers for best outcome, though some of us surely still weigh that! It would be nice to go the most effective route, but sometimes that brings a lot of pain, judgement, or unforseen externalities.
(and hopefully we pick our close social relationships to make us more effective too!)
> "according to your community norms ..." ... without much real reveal
It puts data to what our understanding of those norms are. I don't know if there's a bigger reveal than "yeah, people generally are pretty comfortable with their spouse"
Tbh I was surprised anyone would/could open up and have an emotional conversation with a neighbor (when looking at risk vs reward). But, there are a lot of types of neighbors too.
Society was trying actually to meet this need in so many other pseudo forms, but where it fell short and what I needed was:
- a safe space to share what my experience without needing to be fixed or someone giving me unsolicited feedback
- place where competition was turned off (sports groups, board game nights, video games etc had previously been this but since they were competitive they met a different need)
- a cadence that met regularly and where space for me to speak with structure was a requirement
I liked this so much I even formed one in DC before I was pushed away for work to an abusive Dallas Capital One environment (which my men helped me navigate while my coworkers accepted the abuse being blind to it). I Highly recommend trying a mens groups, find one on Facebook or Google, or try the project mankind groups or No Mr Nice Guy’s Dr Glover runs one online. The one I was a part of longest is also open: embodied masculine (more extreme embodiment based group) but starting off get your toes wet first.
One thing about UU's is that it's not dogma based. There's nothing you have to believe to be a UU. Instead, it's covenant based. You are in the community when you adhere to the agreements of the community. These are usually things like mutual respect, deep listening, etc.
So, men's groups don't solve the problem of the lack of healthy regular socializing with 2-3 good friends, which for men in many countries has fallen off a cliff since the smartphone and Covid.
If you want regular socializing with 2-3 good friends though, I think the friends made from a men's group would be closer to what you are seeking than from a random hobby-based group.
I recently went thru a rough period triggered by how my spouse was feeling. If you've both always counted on having the other ready to listen, and that's temporarily impossible for acute reasons, the shock is enormous, and almost undermined my problem solving ability to understand I needed to find a psychologist to talk to.
We're ok now, but it could have easily gotten way worse before it got better. Having a solid relationship is unfortunately not a protection from losing the security it gives you, psychologically.
People need connection, but the varieties of connection are vast. What works for one person, can be terrible for another. Maybe talking to bots gives you what you need, which is great for you. But projecting your solution to everyone else is not a rational step to take.