Neovim have a ~$800k Bitcoin donation sitting untouched since 2023

1 points by jakemanger ↗ HN
I was looking at neovim's donation footer at the bottom of their site and saw a bitcoin donation address.

Thought I'd check how much in donations they've gotten. And I saw this massive 10 Bitcoin donation from back in 2023 (worth $800,000 now...)

From the activity history, neovim last sent bitcoin out of the address 2019 so it's been max 7 years since they've definitely had access.

Does anyone from the neovim project know about this? Seems like a pretty significant amount of funding to have sitting there. Hope it can come to good use as I use neovim daily.

https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/addresses/btc/1Evu6wPrzjsjrNPdCYbHy3HT6ry2EzXFyQ

90 comments

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I imagine they might wait, to make it’s legally obtained Bitcoin.
In which country would waiting help?
Something that takes 5 seconds with bitcoin, faster than any other property type, is something you rationalize as taking 7 years

Why does HN tolerate this level of understanding when it comes to crypto

> Something that takes 5 seconds with bitcoin, faster than any other property type, is something you rationalize as taking 7 years

> Why does HN collectively tolerate this level of understanding when it comes to crypto

Well that's really funny. Because the 7 years are about tax liabilities not the speed of bitcoin transactions.

So maybe you made a statement about crypto advocates here...

Legally obtained bitcoin is what the person I responded to said, suggesting anti money laundering concerns which are the concerns I responded to

And the tax liability sister comments all disagree with each other

Notably, the parent commenter hasn’t replied at all yet

hodl
They've hodled from the original ~$200,000 donation to $1.2 million, now down to $800,000.

If they haven't accidentally done this, they've definitely got some balls

I hope they still have the private key.
Really hope so too. Would be devastating
It is an interesting fact about Bitcoin in general. There are 21M tokens in total AND some percentage are lost every year. Run this simulation long enough and there will be very few active Bitcoins remaining.
Seems pretty silly to build in deflation into a currency. It incentivises putting your money in a mattress for 100 years.
Deflation is a good thing, it rewards delayed gratification. Those evil Keynesians have convinced the world a little bit of inflation is good. It isn’t. Losing purchasing power on your money is a bug.

Nothing wrong with putting money under a mattress for 100y if the value of money is not evaporating.

For most of human history the money was stable. It’s the disasters of 20th century wars that eroded the value, and 21st century lack of monetary discipline that keeps driving it down now.

Historically, as far as I am aware, there was never a situation when deflation coincided with good things happening.

A healthy amount of inflation keeps the economy going.

That's like saying stray dogs keep you in shape / running … because you don't want to be bitten.
I mean, cardio is Rule #1 of the zombie apocalypse in Zombieland.
This can be said about many conflicts between the individual and society, though. In many ways we are prevented from just taking what we want and “keep us in shape” because if everyone did the same it would be a problem.
> Losing purchasing power on your money is a bug.

The idea that you can put away an amount of money under your bed that buys 1,000 loaves of bread or one GPU, leave it there for decades, and then have it buy exactly the same number of loaves of bread or GPUs is a fantasy. You can hold onto the shiny rock but you cannot stop the world rotating around you and changing all its relative prices.

> For most of human history the money was stable

Achieved by a combination of restrictions on trade, price stability laws, occasional crippling shortages, and quietly shaving bits off old coins. A much poorer world.

Except that this is literally what Gold does.

The ratio of one ounce of gold to one productive beef cow has held for a hundred years, and plausibly for around 5,000 years.

A single ounce of gold could purchase a quality tunic, sandals, and belt in Ancient Rome and still buys a fine tailored suit in the modern era.

https://findbullionprices.com/blog/gold-purchasing-power-wha...

This would be more convincing if it wasn't from a site trying to sell me gold. Do people really believe that the mechanization of clothing production in the industrial era has made no difference to "real" prices?

(Rome definitely had inflation crises!)

If you have a brilliant technical solution that requires throwing out all conventional economics, you don't have a brilliant technical solution. Bitcoin is rotten to its core and every excuse you make for it proves the point.

>For most of human history the money was stable.

Absolutely ridiculous. People have been counterfeiting and debasing money for as long as there has been money.

I think deflation-based economy could produce some interesting capital-allocation environemnt. Investment offering a 2% real return becomes unattractive if cash itself earns 2% real purchasing-power yearly. You could argue this raises the hurdle rate for investment and eliminates low-quality projects. And the counterargument is exactly the same: it raises the hurdle rate for investment and therefore some potentially good projects would never receive funding. And thats probably where the intellectually interesting argument really lives, rather than in inflation good deflation bad
The right thing would be to have 0 change in the value of money as long as the right amount of money exists.

The right maount of money is the amount of money we as normal humans need to work with (buying and selling stuff).

Inflation and deflation are results of too much money or too little money in comparision to the production capability of a society.

If i save today for my retirement and money gets less valuable when i'm retired, i have to give more 'saved' capacity back to get the real capacity (people taking care of me) and if i have more value, the others have to do more for me.

Controlling this is 'work' from experts and is not solved by bitcoin btw.

The normal term would be “velocity” of money, btw. Its a key consideration in addition to total supply whenever you need to evaluate inflation or manias.
Why does everyone assume that we're the ones keeping money under the mattress, not the ones who would have been paid by money otherwise not spent? All transactions have two sides, no?
> For most of human history the money was stable.

Wildly inaccurate, thanks to forgery and coin shaving - sometimes even governments officially reduced the silver or gold content to make more money out of their coin reserves. Even when proto-banks began issuing letters of credit, the fiat letters were subject to loss of confidence.

However, the availability and quasi-fungibility of other silver/gold currencies meant that if you didn't trust Edward's penny, you could use a Dutch penning instead. That provided an alternate path to dampen inflation, as long as the dominant currency was coinage.

But it was equally hard to buy a pig or a new suit with silver pennies by the 20th century. Bank notes, even when theoretically backed by exchange for their value in precious metals (the Gold Standard), were even easier to forge, and suffered from "loss of faith" inflation (runs on banks meaning they couldn't practically be exchanged for 14 pounds of silver pennies).

Hahahaha, oh my. You think the world was some idyll halcyon pre bretton woods? My man Enmentrna is going to come back and declare a jubilee for your great revelation. When has any historic monetary system been “stable” for an appreciable amount of time. Debasement is a very literal ancient word and problem.

Even your straw man 20th century cut off is hilarious where you just kind of forget about 1873? Or maybe that decade is your shining example of the benefits of deflation. So much joy and global prosperity the peasants just forgot how to eat. Its cool, Bismarks destruction of the bimetallic system really helped usher in that age of stabikity from the international gold standards.

I suspect it was a deliberate strategy to create scarcity, allowing the original creators to massively cash out. If you make an inflationary distributed currency, it may work better but it's a bit harder to get rich on it.
During much of the industrial revolution, gold also rose in real price. But people still did business in gold standard countries.

(Hint: the gold might be under a mattress or in a vault, but you can still an almost arbitrary amount of gold denominated debts and loans and deposits.)

There is zero evidence that deflation has any effect on spending.

At the micro level, the change in price is too small for every day purchases. Would you starve yourself for one day because the pizza will be one cent cheaper tomorrow?

At the macro level, every interest rate will be adjusted based on the base inflation/deflation rate, so the net effect is zero. Banks will offer a higher profit rate for their savings account to entice people to deposit their money in the bank instead of their mattress.

The other option is to make everyone gamblers, either speculate on properties or stocks. Pick your poison.
The idea that deflation is built into Bitcoin is exactly equivalent to saying "the real value of bitcoin will always increase" which is an absurd premise.

Bitcoin is deflationary only in a hybrid Keynsian - Austrian worldview. In the Keynsian worldview it cannot by definition be deflationary because that would mean that the value is always increasing which is just kind of a mad thing to believe. In the Austrian worldview it is not deflationary because the amount of Bitcoin is always increasing by design. Only if you accept the Austrian framing of "deflation is when you decrease the money supply" together with the Keynsian framing of "money supply is measured in real terms not nominal" do you arrive at the idea that it could be deflationary, and there are exactly zero economists who believe both of these things.

Tail emissions and infinite divisibility are proposals to address this.
Well, they are infinitely divisible in principle, so it doesn't matter too much.

(At the moment, there's a smallest fraction you can send on the network, but they can change that.)

Worth pointing out that the monetary policy of bitcoin is not written in stone; all you need to change it is a majority of hashpower. The current chain of bitcoin mainnet includes hard forks, like this one due to miners' manual intervention over a software bug that was exploited: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposu...
> all you need to change it is a majority of hashpower

Or rather the majority of actual users. Hard forks occur because people install and use the updated clients. If 90% of the miners decide to mine on the “bad” chain, but 90% of users switch to the “good” one instead, the “good” would likely still win out in terms of market cap and recognition (and the miners would naturally have to follow).

Because difficulty does not adapt dynamically, if the miners do not move then the fork will be defunct because it will take literally days to weeks to mine a block, and to mine the 216 blocks that would trigger a difficulty adjustment would also take proportionately longer. So transactions would sit in the mempool and the currency would be mostly useless.
I think for most bitcoin users, the main usability concern wrt forks is being on the most secure chain; i.e. hashpower. If you're willing to trade being on the most secure, most historic chain for specific technical features then you're probably on an altchain already. In practice every hard fork in history the chain with the most hashpower has retained the ticker, meanwhile the users are never organized enough to do anything but follow that decision.
21M is the theoretical cap. At the moment there are 20M and more are constantly being mined. Miners have to convert bitcoin into real currency to pay for their electricity both for mining and transaction fees. This means that there is always a supply of bitcoin for sale. Which is fine if there is still demand for new bitcoin, but who's buying bitcoin these days? It has underperformed both the S&P 500 and gold over the last 5 years. I expect bitcoin inflation to continue. (AKA the bitcoin price to continue to go down).
Eventually with quantum computing we will be able to recover those wallets right? (Technically)
at this point bitcoin will be worthless
That depends on whether the public key has been exposed.

Bitcoin addresses encode the ripemd160 hash of the public key, so by default when payments are made to new addresses they are not quantum crackable.

But when someone spends from an address they publish the public key to the chain as part of the spend. From then on, any new deposits sent to the same address are at risk of quantum attack

The hash is merely a convenience, the _actual_ public key used in transactions is present in the ledger and available to anybody who wants it.
How does that work?

Suppose I make a paper wallet on an offline PC, write down the address and discard both keys. If I now send some BTC to this address, how does the client figure out the public key?

Only if there has been an outgoing transaction from that account. If the address has only received deposits then only the hash is available.
Technically it might be more profitable to mine extraterrestrial diamonds.
The project no longer uses that Bitcoin wallet for bounties.
What does that mean for that donation, and why is the wallet still listed on the website?
I think that a large part of the priced in "value" of Bitcoin is just lots and lots of Bitcoin that nobody can access anymore.
Bitcoin really isn't money.

They should send it to a dead wallet instead.

True and its also not compareable to gold.

But as long as others giving you real money for this garbage, it would be better to use it for a project like neovim :)

Well the "non comparability" to gold has to do with the fact you need a functioning network to spend (good luck verifying a key by hand with a calculator). You can spend gold even when you're transacting with the last person on earth.

However the value is as much as people agree to value it and for a typical person both have little utility. Maybe BTC has even more utility because it facilitates remote transfers of value very easily.

So as long as the network exists there is intristic value in BTC. I believe more than one can say about gold.

Still, a good portfolio will contain both gold (in small coins likely as a kind of "war hedge") and BTC as a kind of hyperinflation hedge.

BTC has less facility in an emergency because energy is gone, internet is gone, bitcoin miners are gone and nodes are gone.

Your gold might give you food, your btc is rotting on some hard disk on a computer you can't / wont use.

BTC as a hyperinflation hedge? We have seen already what happens to btc when money gets tide: BTC drops.

> You can spend gold even when you're transacting with the last person on earth.

Not really. Try using gold in retail.

Exactly this! It was rendered money by some minds.
You should lead by example. Could you please purchase $800k of bitcoin and then send to a dead wallet for all of us to see?
> You should lead by example

Neovim first.

I've never "purchased" Bitcoin or any cryptocurrencies ever because it is not money or legal tender and never will.

What is this stupid argument?

Your 'point't doesn't make any sense at all?

Bitcoin isn't really money same way as US dollar isn't really money.
Not true.

Behind the US Dollar is a whole country and a lot more countries if not the whole world.

Behind Bitcoin are random investors, random people.

Bitcoin is also rarly traded directly it uses fiat for most. So Bitcoin is even dependend on this proof-of-stake system.

Bitcoin is a proof-of-work system dependend on the best proof-of-stake system we have.

is this (w)hole lie still hodling up? crazy! is my botnet still not out of puberty?
This could become the premise of a near-cyberpunk heist movie..
I checked their official donation channel is OpenCollective. I think the Bitcoin address is no longer being used and they just forgot to update the footer
Yeah, someone probably deposited an amount a long time ago and it's sat there earning interest.
Bitcoin doesn’t pay interest. And that’s a good thing.
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I’ve read so many news stories of people gone missing who had been know to have sole access to bitcoin wallets with large amount of bitcoins in them.

I wonder how people at large crypto exchanges handle that. Perhaps shamir share the access to the pkey password and store parts at secure places like a bank? And make official access protocol akin to dnssec, but simplified?

Large exchanges handle this very simply: If they have the keys, it goes to the inheritor(s) once they get a court order. If they do not, it goes nowhere
I worked at a crypto exchange, yes we used shamir shares. But probably not as sophisticated as you're thinking, there was basically one big "break glass" text document with all the keys. And then a hand-rolled software on each person's laptop to distribute the plain text and run / practice the 3/5 recovery ceremony. So anyone losing their device would be equivalent to someone quitting and require its own ceremony to reissue a key, but I don't think that ever actually happened.

We explored using smart contracts to have logic perform the 3/5 consensus rather than a cryptosystem, but that was never rolled out while I was there. Social recovery wallets in general did not take off, which was a big learning moment for me that very few people actually cared about the technology and what they really wanted was an app with as many gambling features as possible that uploaded their keys to google drive.

> Social recovery wallets in general did not take off, which was a big learning moment for me that very few people actually cared about the technology and what they really wanted was an app with as many gambling features as possible that uploaded their keys to google drive.

People who are not HN-profile never care about the technology, and always care about usable, convenient features. The shocker is: most HN-profile people feel the same way.

Also see: https://m.xkcd.com/2501/

Yes, I do agree with this. What rubbed me the wrong way was all the cynical people who would talk endlessly about how revolutionary the tech was and all the possibilities it opened to get others invested, but ran companies that were just casinos and actually could have simpler operations without the crypto parts! Most people in pre-NFT crypto has someone in their network who worked on an outright Ponzi scheme.
> but ran companies that were just casinos and actually could have simpler operations without the crypto parts

But during the big buzz, the crypto parts were what got those companies any exposure at all.

Yes. It really was a toxic mess wasn't it?
> but ran companies that were just casinos and actually could have simpler operations without the crypto parts

Creating a product for the sake of using a technology is a flawed order of operations. However, the glitz and glamour of a new money for a new internet is enticing with a lot of promise. I'm a crypto bro, but my crypto confidence has waned recently. My confidence in the USD has also waned.

> Social recovery wallets in general did not take off

ERC7093 has finally added this

Improving or standardizing the approach is all well and good, but if it's not natively integrated into MEW / MM / Coinbase Wallet / Phantom it's sort of irrelevant. Argent was the best attempt but they failed so bad commercially that they pivoted to a google drive recovery mechanism and changed their name.
> Also see: https://m.xkcd.com/2501/

The other day a neighbor asked me about AI. I said I wasn’t really up to date with things anymore. They asked: like what things? And then I said: like the Astra model that OpenAI released yesterday, I know nothing about it. And they were like: “bro, yesterday?! And you feel you’re not up to date?! Pfff”

A better solution (than Shamir secret sharing) are threshold signatures.

The difference is that with Shamir you have to reconstruct the private key in one place before you can sign. With threshold signatures multiple servers can collaboratively sign without ever reconstructing the private key in a single place.

For chains like Solana, Aptos, SUI that use ed25519 (schnorr signature), there's a pretty clean solution called FROST.

For Bitcoin and Ethereum/EVMs that use ECDSA it's a bit trickier but there's been a lot of research recently, so there are solutions.

What happens if some of those tax the unrealized gains bills pass in some country where they have obligations?

They would have to either pay the tax on gains or write off losses.

[dead]
then they would sell some of the bitcoin and pay the taxes. If they don't have the wallet anymore then they don't pay any taxes.
Rainy day fund. Everybody needs one. Love neovim for living under their means, great program!
For a reference point, when I was unemployed and between jobs, I got involved with Neovim for fun, and after some contributions, and eventually tried some full(ish)-time paid work. I wrote the native lua LSP client (:h vim.lsp, and the nvim-lspconfig repo) for Neovim in a few weeks for about $3k USD (circa 2019)? This amount could fund quite a lot of work to be sure.
well, I just emailed the project just to see if they're aware of it

part of me feels like this is most likely a defunct wallet and nobody involved with the project has the keys anymore

At least a part of it should go to Kibaale Children's Centre imho.
I got the Bram Moolenar reference.