This sounds pretty neat, and I do dig the website, though I can’t help but think it’s an odd combination to have bitmap/pixelated fonts and graphics inside perfect squircles.
Seems like you guys have two distinct ideas of a visual identity completely at odds there. Shape contrast is nice and can be rather fun to play with, but it has to be handled with care. Right now it feels like the designer had a bunch of ideas and didn’t know how to bring them together in a cohesive identity.
I'm a sucker for retro 8-bit graphics and fun mascots, so we went with that, but when we experimented with 8-bit for actual UI and long text we immediately found it to be super unusable and unreadable :-(
> Bonus point for the TRON reference at the end! “I fight for the users!”
Ah ofc the HN poster knows the reference :-) I've had it as my email signature since high school I think.
side note: i really wish more companies did the no email + randomized account number flow. there is a certain popular "pro-privacy" product beloved by many here that requires an email address and refuses to offer a similar account number method, which has turned me off the product.
for what purpose? there is nothing to be gained from pointing fingers, and takes the discussion in an even more unrelated direction.
although i guess people's curiosity is also dragging my comment in an unrelated direction anyways. lose-lose situation.
my main point is that the account number method is really nice, and a great selling point for such privacy-conscious products. not offering it in a privacy-conscious product is enough signal that it has made me choose not to purchase the product. that's the important bit, and where i was hoping to drive the conversation.
I am a little surprised people jump to Proton as beloved by HN. Proton has a lot of detractors and tends to be a target of some conspiracy/controversy. HN darling definitely suggests Kagi, who are not significantly impressive in terms of privacy-tech which I assumed was why pro-privacy was in air quotes.
Yeah we thought the randomized account number flow was an ingenious idea, so we did that and made the last digit a Verhoeff checksum to check for mistypes!
Though sometimes people forget to write the number down and... There's not much we can do.
Basically a middle-man for a Mullvad VPN, where if Mullvad decides to pull out of their agreement with this company, you lose your connection and are hopefully refunded.
The single point of failure for this product is Mullvad and its leadership's changing opinions.
Many (if not all) of the benefits on the landing page are available in Mullvad too, which is a more mature and reputable product, and powers the exit servers of this.
There is also a catch: Mullvad is a Swedish company, which has stricter privacy protection laws in place.
According to Obscura's legal page, it is a New York-based company [0]. Under US law, a company can be issued a gag order forcing them to log activity on a specific account, which ultimately defeats their core privacy promise.
[0]: "(2) your written notification must be mailed to 169 Madison Ave.; Ste. 11185 PMB 63183; New York, NY 10016..." https://obscura.com/legal/
> The EU is working to make what Mullvad is doing illegal.
In other news, it has been demonstrated in a court of law that Mullvad "no logs" means no logs.
TL;DR:
Six police officers turned up at Mullvad offices with a search warrant for logs and data.
Mullvad said "take a look for yourself".
They went home with nothing.
Lots of people on HN and elsewhere are spreading a lot of FUD about the EU and what the EU MIGHT do – remember MIGHT .... politicians discuss a lot of stuff, and a lot of it never gets implemented.
One thing that is clear. The EU is not a dicatorship. They have a long history of listening and acting on what industry experts tell them. Even if it means "watering down" ideas being discussed by the politicians.
I have a lot of faith that Mullvad (and, frankly, all the other VPN providers) would make a lot of noise if any of this EU FUD people are spreading actually ever became reality.
But until then, I suggest people put the EU FUD tin-foil hat to one side.
World used to believe companies used to care for them, before snowden showed up. Even now people are still surprised, when companies like LG get caught doing illegal stuff. How long before there is a scandal in EU? Fool me once...
As much as i like to believe EU "cares" about the consumer, its really stupid for someone to blindly put their faith in Mullvad. Zero trust. When you are online, you are on your own.
- With traditional Single-Party VPNs, even if you trust them fully and they're honest, they can still be compromised or hacked. With Obscura, even if we're hacked there's nothing to leak (other than WireGuard packets fully encrypted to Mullvad's servers).
- The change in trust is that instead of trusting a single company (Mullvad), you're trusting that not both Obscura AND Mullvad have been compromised, which is strictly less likely.
The "Obscura and Mullvad" argument actually makes sense. Having a company outside of EU jurisdiction makes it hard for both layers to be compromised at the same time.
Another question: How does the Obscura client get the Mullvad exit server’s public key? Are they hardcoded at compile time, fetched from Mullvad's server, or fetched from Obscura's server?
The latter seems to be dangerous if there isn't some kind of signature verification done on the client side before using the key.
Good question! It's the latter right now (which is not ideal), but I think Mullvad is going to sign their server pubkeys pretty soon and we'll switch to that.
We do currently show it in the app and there's an easily clickable link so you can verify against Mullvad's website for the pubkey
Yeah, it's basically not possible to offer an actually secure and private service in the US. If men with guns and gag orders haven't shown up at their new york office yet, they will as soon as this VPN gets popular enough to show up on their radar. At that point if they have any integrity they'll shut their service down like Lababit did rather than allow it to be compromised by the state.
I think many people have absolutely stopped giving money to US corporations that are run by fascists like Musk or DHH. Of course, this is and will never be the majority (many people don't care or don't know), but I am certain it's a non-trivial number of people.
I am sure there are quite a few people out there who have avoided getting a mainstream smartphone setup or other big tech services.
As you wrote yourself, this is not the majority. Quite the understatement.
However, this is only a tangential notion in my comment. What do you think of my observation that calls for ethical purity seem to be very selective in a way that (in effect!) benefits big tech?
I'm not interested in generalising "calls for moral purity" as if all ethical concerns are equivalent.
There is a difference, also, between saying, "I am not morally okay with this, so I am going to do X", vs. "If you don't also do X, you are a Bad Person."
To me, after reading up on the platform of the right-wing party in question and Mullvad's CEO's level of involvement with it, the situation with Mullvad is worse. And because it is a much smaller company, a much greater percentage of my money would go to that CEO in particular. And my choice to pay or not has much more influence on Mullvad than it ever could have on Apple.
Others are free to feel otherwise, and to use their money as they please.
Besides, there are plenty of small company alternatives, like IVPN, which was recommended widely around the time this news broke. And I think that people who found out about Mullvad are likely often the sort to put thought and research into their choice of VPN, rather than just buying NordVPN or whatever based on name recognition only.
A single data point is pretty meaningless. If there were actually data to be found on how the customer base numbers or growth rates of the various VPN companies have or haven't shifted since the news broke, that would be interesting.
Ultimately though, what other people do or don't choose to do is irrelevant to my own choice. Moral purity, as you call it, is impossible. The world is not simple. I am going to do my best to make ethical choices anyway.
Agree fully. Also, using another VPN is simple and possible. Using another mobile platform than iOS or Android is virtually impossible or only possible with a lot of real limitations in your daily life.
And to reply to the parent of this comment: I also wouldn't judge others just because they are a Mullvad customer or whatever.
Let's not have perfect to be enemy of good (or ok, or better than nothing).
In case of Mullvad it's a niche product with many alternatives. Using something else is viable and it is interesting to many in the niche because their ties to far right was secret up until recently.
It might be harder with something like Basecamp or Figma if your job requires it.
It is almost impossible with things like Google.
Yes we should have these comments in every thread about big tech. It doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about Mullvad.
Many people also don't see the relevance of reducing reliance in services from Russian companies or using Chinese software for critical matters either. Newsflash, not everyone has the same opinion.
Same country at least - the iCloud Private Relay options, iOS:
“1: Maintain general location
2: Use country and time zone
Maintain your general location to receive localized content, or enhance your privacy by using a broader IP address based on your country and time zone.
Safari Private Browsing always uses an IP location from your country and time zone.”
Sure. But the political party in question has an explicit goal of rounding up and "deporting" all immigrants and all the children of immigrants (including those who grew up in Sweden and are citizens).
Besides being reprehensible, that kind of mass trafficking requires mass surveillance. It simply can't be done without it.
This kind of surveillance is antithetical to what Mullvad promises.
There of course could be a "privacy for me and my customers, but not for thee" thing in their minds.
But I don't trust that CEO whatsoever, and I don't trust the rest of Mullvad's leadership either because their response to the backlash was mealy mouthed "everyone is entitled to their opinion, let's all be civil" minimization schlock. They didn't give a fuck; they just wanted the PR problem to go away.
Mullvad's VPN service might continue to be trustworthy, but... I have other options. And it could be enshittified over time, just like so many other things. At least one CEO has a motivation to enable mass surveillance.
I'm also just not going to knowingly put money into the hands of someone I know will use it for evil, if and when I have a choice, which in this case I do.
Purity politics, doesn't work sorry, just highlights hypocrisy.
I can't see how this has any bearing on the functioning of Mullvad, if they were campaigning on circumventing privacy rights it'd be a different story.
Sometimes people don't want to financially support people or companies that engage in certain behaviors they consider unethical. Whether or not the product functions is irrelevant in such a situation.
It's more the soapboxing that's the issue.
I long for the days when not everything in life is given a political twist. This is a relatively recent phenomenon.
This doesn't prove it. However, Obscura makes it so that there's no *single party* that if hacked or otherwise compromised would hurt your internet privacy.
So like OHTTP but for UDP traffic? I suppose they are using MASQUE CONNECT-UDP?
They are careful to not exactly claim the same anonymity properties of Tor, though I think a lay reader will read that differently (ie, that they do have the same anonymity property as Tor).
That said being able to verify the inner wireguard conn to mullvad is nice. Of course you have to trust them that they aren't colluding with mullvad to share your identity/ip. But same goes for OHTTP.
So two hops, basically. First hop sees your IP address but not the website you're going to, second hop sees website but not IP address. Similar to Private Relay: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102602.
As others have pointed out, this is like Apple iCloud Private Relay, and other multi-hop privacy systems that have been built on and off over the last several decades (Tor included).
Sure! We should just wait long enough (perhaps a couple of months) so the effects of the current thread wear off and it won't feel like a follow-up anymore. If you want to, you'd be welcome to email us then and we could arrange a new thread - similar to what I said at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49807631 (on a completely different topic of course!)
Hi Carl, thanks for being here to answer questions. Two questions: Do you have any active testers in Iran right now, and secondly, how is this architected to deal with advanced DPI boxes in ISP networks that detect flows of encrypted traffic and drop it? The methods I'm seeing people use with success from within Iran right now are very different than something like a commercial mullvad or competitor VPN.
Some of them rely on people having a helpful third party in ("free") country to set up a private relay in something like Azure IP space that isn't used by any other VPN users, so it doesn't attract a level of attention (or attention by multiples of different peoples' encrypted flows) that publicly published commercial VPN services do. It's a hard problem to solve on a scale of more than a couple of people.
The multi party relay concept is great, my concerns are more with traffic detection/DPI in between the end user and the first hop in the relay.
Hi I can't really spot any information about how Obscura is funded on the website. Is it a fully self funded project or have it accepted outside investments?
The claim isn't merely that Obscura doesn't log activity. The claim is that Obscura is unable to, because it is a relay to another VPN provider Mullvad. That is distinct from other VPN providers.
> Exit servers (run by Mullvad) connect you to the internet but never see your personal info. Obscura masks your real IP address when relaying to the exit server.
How is this possible? If the exit server doesn't know your IP, how does it know where to send the traffic?
114 comments
[ 0.21 ms ] story [ 18.9 ms ] threadSeems like you guys have two distinct ideas of a visual identity completely at odds there. Shape contrast is nice and can be rather fun to play with, but it has to be handled with care. Right now it feels like the designer had a bunch of ideas and didn’t know how to bring them together in a cohesive identity.
I'm a sucker for retro 8-bit graphics and fun mascots, so we went with that, but when we experimented with 8-bit for actual UI and long text we immediately found it to be super unusable and unreadable :-(
> Bonus point for the TRON reference at the end! “I fight for the users!”
Ah ofc the HN poster knows the reference :-) I've had it as my email signature since high school I think.
side note: i really wish more companies did the no email + randomized account number flow. there is a certain popular "pro-privacy" product beloved by many here that requires an email address and refuses to offer a similar account number method, which has turned me off the product.
although i guess people's curiosity is also dragging my comment in an unrelated direction anyways. lose-lose situation.
my main point is that the account number method is really nice, and a great selling point for such privacy-conscious products. not offering it in a privacy-conscious product is enough signal that it has made me choose not to purchase the product. that's the important bit, and where i was hoping to drive the conversation.
If you're talking about Proton VPN, they do support "credential-less accounts" through their official apps, I believe? At least, on Android since 2024: https://www.androidpolice.com/proton-vpn-works-without-accou...
Proton VPN ensures privacy.
Yeah we thought the randomized account number flow was an ingenious idea, so we did that and made the last digit a Verhoeff checksum to check for mistypes!
Though sometimes people forget to write the number down and... There's not much we can do.
The single point of failure for this product is Mullvad and its leadership's changing opinions.
Many (if not all) of the benefits on the landing page are available in Mullvad too, which is a more mature and reputable product, and powers the exit servers of this.
Why should I choose this over Mullvad?
According to Obscura's legal page, it is a New York-based company [0]. Under US law, a company can be issued a gag order forcing them to log activity on a specific account, which ultimately defeats their core privacy promise.
[0]: "(2) your written notification must be mailed to 169 Madison Ave.; Ste. 11185 PMB 63183; New York, NY 10016..." https://obscura.com/legal/
https://codamail.com/articles/privacy-law-directory/internat...
"EU surveillance co-operation"
In other news, it has been demonstrated in a court of law that Mullvad "no logs" means no logs.
TL;DR:
Six police officers turned up at Mullvad offices with a search warrant for logs and data.
Mullvad said "take a look for yourself".
They went home with nothing.
Lots of people on HN and elsewhere are spreading a lot of FUD about the EU and what the EU MIGHT do – remember MIGHT .... politicians discuss a lot of stuff, and a lot of it never gets implemented.
One thing that is clear. The EU is not a dicatorship. They have a long history of listening and acting on what industry experts tell them. Even if it means "watering down" ideas being discussed by the politicians.
I have a lot of faith that Mullvad (and, frankly, all the other VPN providers) would make a lot of noise if any of this EU FUD people are spreading actually ever became reality.
But until then, I suggest people put the EU FUD tin-foil hat to one side.
[1] https://mullvad.net/en/blog/2023/4/20/mullvad-vpn-was-subjec... [2] https://mullvad.net/en/blog/update-the-swedish-authorities-a...
[1] - lobbying by leather industry to exempt them from EU Deforestation Regulation - https://news.mongabay.com/2026/09/now-exempt-from-eu-defores...
[2] - lobbying to remove due diligence on human rights violation in supply chain in certain industry sectors - https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/eu-csddd...
> They have a long history of listening and acting on what industry experts tell them
Yes, most famously the diesel gate, european automakers cheating emission tests, [3] because EU invited companies to self regulate their lab tests.
[3] - https://corporateeurope.org/sites/default/files/driving_into...
World used to believe companies used to care for them, before snowden showed up. Even now people are still surprised, when companies like LG get caught doing illegal stuff. How long before there is a scandal in EU? Fool me once...
As much as i like to believe EU "cares" about the consumer, its really stupid for someone to blindly put their faith in Mullvad. Zero trust. When you are online, you are on your own.
I love folks who are also reasoning through security models! A few things to note here:
- We believe that all software running on a user's computer should be open source, so you can audit and build your own client: https://github.com/Sovereign-Engineering/obscuravpn-client
- With traditional Single-Party VPNs, even if you trust them fully and they're honest, they can still be compromised or hacked. With Obscura, even if we're hacked there's nothing to leak (other than WireGuard packets fully encrypted to Mullvad's servers).
- The change in trust is that instead of trusting a single company (Mullvad), you're trusting that not both Obscura AND Mullvad have been compromised, which is strictly less likely.
Another question: How does the Obscura client get the Mullvad exit server’s public key? Are they hardcoded at compile time, fetched from Mullvad's server, or fetched from Obscura's server?
The latter seems to be dangerous if there isn't some kind of signature verification done on the client side before using the key.
We do currently show it in the app and there's an easily clickable link so you can verify against Mullvad's website for the pubkey
Its just very, very, very unfortunate that they chose the US for Obscura.
Of all the jurisdictions in the world you chose the one that has become exponentially untrustworthy in the eyes of non-US users ....
1.5k comments discussion for context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48717469
For example, every big tech company supports the current US administration in some capacity, either with funds, their surveillance stack or both.
Almost noone has stopped using big tech products and services because of that. (Unfortunately!)
But beware! There is someone in one tiny, privacy-preserving product who is doing something that not everyone agrees with!
That is a big problem, right? I think this is a big problem, everyone!
You see those comments in every Mullvad thread, but not necessarily in every thread about big tech products or services.
As you wrote yourself, this is not the majority. Quite the understatement.
However, this is only a tangential notion in my comment. What do you think of my observation that calls for ethical purity seem to be very selective in a way that (in effect!) benefits big tech?
There is a difference, also, between saying, "I am not morally okay with this, so I am going to do X", vs. "If you don't also do X, you are a Bad Person."
To me, after reading up on the platform of the right-wing party in question and Mullvad's CEO's level of involvement with it, the situation with Mullvad is worse. And because it is a much smaller company, a much greater percentage of my money would go to that CEO in particular. And my choice to pay or not has much more influence on Mullvad than it ever could have on Apple.
Others are free to feel otherwise, and to use their money as they please.
Besides, there are plenty of small company alternatives, like IVPN, which was recommended widely around the time this news broke. And I think that people who found out about Mullvad are likely often the sort to put thought and research into their choice of VPN, rather than just buying NordVPN or whatever based on name recognition only.
A single data point is pretty meaningless. If there were actually data to be found on how the customer base numbers or growth rates of the various VPN companies have or haven't shifted since the news broke, that would be interesting.
Ultimately though, what other people do or don't choose to do is irrelevant to my own choice. Moral purity, as you call it, is impossible. The world is not simple. I am going to do my best to make ethical choices anyway.
And to reply to the parent of this comment: I also wouldn't judge others just because they are a Mullvad customer or whatever.
In case of Mullvad it's a niche product with many alternatives. Using something else is viable and it is interesting to many in the niche because their ties to far right was secret up until recently.
It might be harder with something like Basecamp or Figma if your job requires it.
It is almost impossible with things like Google.
Yes we should have these comments in every thread about big tech. It doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about Mullvad.
As for what's different: We're a Multi-*Party* Relays (vs. traditional VPNs which are Single-Party Relays): https://www.privacyguides.org/articles/2024/11/17/where-are-...
With Multi-Party Relays you no longer have a trust a single entity not being malicious or compromised. More on this here: https://obscura.com/#how
Also, all our apps are open-source as well: https://github.com/Sovereign-Engineering/obscuravpn-client
Disclaimer: I'm the creator of Obscura.
The differences are:
- We allow you to choose an exit location (I believe iCloud Private Relay restricts you to the same location)
- Our exit hop is Mullvad instead of Cloudflare+Fastly+Akamai
- We use QUIC for transport instead of HTTP/3 (which is built on QUIC and has a bit more overhead)
“1: Maintain general location
2: Use country and time zone
Maintain your general location to receive localized content, or enhance your privacy by using a broader IP address based on your country and time zone.
Safari Private Browsing always uses an IP location from your country and time zone.”
As they should, IMHO.
Besides being reprehensible, that kind of mass trafficking requires mass surveillance. It simply can't be done without it.
This kind of surveillance is antithetical to what Mullvad promises.
There of course could be a "privacy for me and my customers, but not for thee" thing in their minds.
But I don't trust that CEO whatsoever, and I don't trust the rest of Mullvad's leadership either because their response to the backlash was mealy mouthed "everyone is entitled to their opinion, let's all be civil" minimization schlock. They didn't give a fuck; they just wanted the PR problem to go away.
Mullvad's VPN service might continue to be trustworthy, but... I have other options. And it could be enshittified over time, just like so many other things. At least one CEO has a motivation to enable mass surveillance.
I'm also just not going to knowingly put money into the hands of someone I know will use it for evil, if and when I have a choice, which in this case I do.
I can't see how this has any bearing on the functioning of Mullvad, if they were campaigning on circumventing privacy rights it'd be a different story.
Really? XD
This doesn't prove it. However, Obscura makes it so that there's no *single party* that if hacked or otherwise compromised would hurt your internet privacy.
Secondly, Mullvad did what Obscura does now years ago.
Furthermore who needs a gamified VPN tool?
They are careful to not exactly claim the same anonymity properties of Tor, though I think a lay reader will read that differently (ie, that they do have the same anonymity property as Tor).
That said being able to verify the inner wireguard conn to mullvad is nice. Of course you have to trust them that they aren't colluding with mullvad to share your identity/ip. But same goes for OHTTP.
Actually it's WireGuard over QUIC Unreliable Datagrams!
See: https://obscura.com/blog/bootstrapping-trust/
Yup! Mostly less changes on Mullvad's side. Also QUIC has less overhead than MASQUE by definition.
We wrote a research paper on the general principle a few years ago: https://conferences.sigcomm.org/hotnets/2022/papers/hotnets2...
The Decoupling Principle: A Practical Privacy Framework [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33897450 - Dec 2022 (3 comments)
Perhaps we should arrange a new thread about this?
I totally agree for traditional Single-Party VPNs, which is why we are a Two-Party Relay. More here: https://obscura.com/blog/bootstrapping-trust/
I guess they never heard of Zero Knowledge Systems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Knowledge_Systems
This is where part of your money flows to...
Happy to answer any questions y’all might have!
Some of them rely on people having a helpful third party in ("free") country to set up a private relay in something like Azure IP space that isn't used by any other VPN users, so it doesn't attract a level of attention (or attention by multiples of different peoples' encrypted flows) that publicly published commercial VPN services do. It's a hard problem to solve on a scale of more than a couple of people.
The multi party relay concept is great, my concerns are more with traffic detection/DPI in between the end user and the first hop in the relay.
Packet padding but no docs about this?
We don't actually, try visiting it with Mullvad turned on!
> Packet padding but no docs about this?
Yeah it's an experimental feature, we're not 100% happy about how we implemented it so we've left it experimental and are working on a v2.
Many src-dst packets but as a single logical connection. There's no way any middlebox could easy capture even metadata.
http2/QUIC can do something similar with frames.
Don't place your whole stream inside a single src-dst IP connection. Demux them into many paths over the Internet.
Yeah it'd be a cool addition to combat internet surveillance but in practicality it may have a lot of problems:
1. Deteriorated performance if it's across unequal links (3G vs. Fibre WiFi)
2. Many countries have single exits to the global internet so they'd be able to assemble everything there
3. The most important plaintext data is probably in the TLS SNI which usually sits in a single packet for TLS in HTTP/3
Hmm, maybe consider MPTCP-like design? It tackles exactly the problem you descrbed.
> Many countries have single exits to the global internet
Well it's f'ed anyway. But multipath makes content restoring much, much more complicated.
How is this possible? If the exit server doesn't know your IP, how does it know where to send the traffic?
Basically:
Your device <-> Obscura Relay <-> Mullvad Exit <-> Internet
So the exit server knows the IP of the Obscura Relay, but never sees your device's IP, lmk if that's clear!