I bring my hammock on vacation so I can sleep under the stars. It's always one of the most enjoyable aspects of the trip, even though I'm asleep for most of it.
For most of my life, I never quite “got it” about the night sky. It was pretty, but not THAT different away from cities.
I only recently learned that visual snow syndrome is a thing, and that most people don’t have it. For me, there is a faint background of multicolor static (analog TV on a dead channel, for those who remember that) on everything, all the time. Light washes it out, so it’s only in the deep dark that I’m absolutely surrounded by it. (It’s basically visual tinnitus, which in turn lead me to discover that I’ve also had auditory tinnitus my whole life, it’s just a soft static not a “ringing” so I never realized it was the same phenomenon.)
I still think everyone sees a noisy image in the dark if they pay attention. Simply because the retina is underexposed. "Visual snow" usually refers to a more extreme condition where you see it even in good lighting.
Maybe you just don't notice it? It's most noticable in a dark but not completely dark room when the eyes got accustomed to the darkness.
To clarify, a similar case: most people are able to see Haidinger's Brush [1], even if they have never noticed it. Why? Because it's not very noticable.
I have this as well, and it showed up suddenly about 9 years ago. Trying to observe the sky ever since is distressing because I remember how my visual field used to be.
I also have it as well as "low grade" auditory tinnitus (at last mine doesn't bother me), I also have autism and transient depersonalization derealization, my doc says they're known to be comorbidities with visual snow.
It's one of those things which seem to exist on a spectrum too; I have it severely enough that some days I outright can't read and my vision distorts quite badly, and it's accompanied by a permanent migraine-like headache. On the other hand, many people I've spoken too experience little impairment at all.
It's a badly named syndrome in my view, since most people younger than me have no idea what TV snow is, and some of the symptoms aren't visual.
I grew up in a rural place where we could see the texture of the milky way just stepping outside at night—it’s been fun taking friends who grew up in cities on wilderness backpacking trips and sitting out to watch the stars. There’s an awe to a true night sky that I think has real psychological impact.
I did also have a cool experience, deep in the backcountry at a high elevation camp some years ago: we went to sleep in a gale, the tent flapping all around, with a cloudy sky. I thought we’d get a big storm, but I woke up hot at 3am, the air totally still. I slid out of the tent and the sky was completely crystal clear. An incredible spread of stars. I watched for a while and noticed a reddish glow on the horizon. We were so far out and it wrapped around in all directions, so I knew it couldn’t possibly have been a town, but I was puzzled. I learned about airglow when we got out of the woods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airglow
I love watching the milky way on a clear, dark night. There are so many stars. Countless stars. It makes me feel really small and all my troubles (and the world's troubles) so insignificant. I love that feeling.
> There’s an awe to a true night sky that I think has real psychological impact.
I've only really experienced this once in my life. I was young teen, my family was visiting some family friends at a remote cabin. I woke up during the middle of the night and went out. It was a crystal clear winter night, and I was completely blown away at what I saw.
Once I had gotten over the shock, I thought "no wonder they called it the milky way". It was so bright, it felt like a new moon just smeared all across the sky.
Sadly not had the chance to experience that again. The then-remote cabin got swarmed by hundreds of others and so it's no longer pitch dark at night there.
I have it as a goal to get out in a really dark zone and see it again.
It's crazy that you can "see" (identify) the Milky Way at a level 5/6 on the Bortle Scale, even in the light pollution of the suburbs. But you don't realize just how brilliant it really is until you're really out to a dark sky spot.
For reference, the Bortle Scale[*] goes from 1 to 9, with 1 being pristine darkness and 9 being Manhattan.
Also worth noting that the Milky Way is brighter in early summer, late May to mid-July, as that's when the Earth's night sky is facing the most towards the Galactic Core. Go find yourself some deep dark sky on a new moon, and sit back and enjoy the enormity of the cosmos.
This is one reason why living in the Southern hemisphere is better - dark clear winter nights right at peak milky way time.
When I was young, I used to lie on my back staring up at the sky, trying to grasp the incomprehensibly vast distances I was gazing at. It's really nuts when you think of it that way. The mental vertigo of it all is extraordinary.
For almost all of human history we lived with that true night sky.
I wonder if the psychological impact is really the absence of the true night sky that we have. Maybe the awe we feel at seeing the true night is what we’re supposed to feel? Something to think about.
idk if it’s just my eyes getting old, or my LASIK, or the sky just not being dark anywhere anymore, but these trips don’t look the same to me as they used to. today it all just seems kinda static-y and fuzzy, but i remember my first night in the grand canyon being an absolutely amazing experience.
Led lights have caused such a massive increase in light pollution, let alone the effects on humans due to the blue spike, that they should be banned outright.
I've driven across Australia a couple of times. Night on the Nullarbor is an amazing experience. So. Many. Stars.
I was lucky enough to witness a thunderstorm over the desert, too. Too far for any noise to reach me, I just saw the clouds lighting up on the horizon. Incredibly beautiful, and not a little spooky. I totally understand why there are so many UFO sightings there.
Being able to see it and being blown away by it are different.
I can see the milky way but I wouldn't describe it as "a new moon just smeared all across the sky" like one of the other commenters. It's more like just a vaguely higher-density strip of stars.
My location is 21 SQM according to the DarkSkySites map.
I see the milky way every clear night (other than full moons) and after a decade or more of this I'm still blown away by it. I'm never going to get tired of seeing our beautiful galaxy stretched across the sky.
I once wanted our then still young daughter to see a real night sky (as I experienced more often as a kid). We were on a darker part of an island (the map says 21.7 sqm). It was a bit tricky walking through the dunes in such pitch dark (no full moon), but also stunningly beautiful. It’s worth doing every now and then to experience our smallness in the vastness of the universe.
Yeah I really don't like the proliferation of blue-pumped LEDs, they're environmentally friendly from the narrow perspective of energy use but they make the lived environment much worse in other ways, particularly the horrid clinical high-K ones people who want to make a 'modern' ambiance love so much.
In my view we should simply have improved on what already existed, instead of blue-pumped LEDs we should have used monochromatic amber ones like the SOX streetlights which were once ubiquitous in the UK. Night actually looked like night back then, rather than a cheap and nasty approximation of daytime.
>they're environmentally friendly from the narrow perspective of energy use but they make the lived environment much worse in other ways, particularly the horrid clinical high-K ones people who want to make a 'modern' ambiance love so much.
They are friendly in the same way the feeding a baby petrol is. Sure it's more energy efficient, but humans aren't machines where input = output. It's going to take decades to get rid of all of them, and then even longer for all the cancers that blue light causes to work themselves out. It's amazing that we invented a new asbestos and put a green wash on it.
From what I've seen, most of this energy-per-lumen efficiency has just been funneled into outputting more and more lumens, not actually saving energy. It's only going to get worse with the new 2027 regulations coming in.
In people for what cancers have been investigates there is also evidence of a link, but not enough studies have been done to say that it's the case for all cancers. This is absense of evidence rather than evidence of absence.
Interesting, thanks for the links. To be honest I'm not scientifically or statistically literate enough to know what to make of that beyond that there might be possibly something there, maybe.
It's so interesting that people assume the color of sodium lamps is the color of night just because that's the color technology made it at one brief moment in time. Just goes to show that illumination is culture, just like everything else
it might also have something to do with the orange glow of the sodium lamps resembling the orange glow of fire and torches, which were the primary medium of lighting in the dark for humanity for thousands of years
This simply isn't true. I do astrophotography, including traveling to dark skies so I can do wideband and not just narrowband. Plenty on the narrowband captures at home in b9 skies, too.
The long exposures pick up far more of them than I can see why my eyes, but I still end up seeing plenty of starlink satellites just looking up, even at 2 or 3 in the morning.
Some googling indicates that they're high enough that light refracting across the atmosphere will still hit them, and yeah, the moon, and also just some reflections from earth and airglow.
I've not done any real research here - it didn't seem odd to me that I could see them, so I haven't done any investigation at all here until these comments.
I remember as a teenager going for a road trip, there was a stretch of the road that had no street lights about 100km away from the closest city. Looking at the side of the car I was surprised just how bright it gets when the moon is out and the sky is clear. You can totally walk around in the open without any extra lights.
> You can totally walk around in the open without any extra lights.
The moon of course has the same brightness, as if you were in a city. This is the ability of your eyes, to see in the darkness, if there are no too bright other light sources.
A long time ago, I had the privilege of being in an area with zero lights. It wasn't a dark sky preserve officially, but it really was one. The night sky was mesmerizing.
Unfortunately, I have never seen stars the same way again. Whenever I think I might see them, I encounter some light pollution which dulls them down.
Oh, what I'd give to experience darkness and to be under the stars.
(That's obviously a lie because I love my conveniences and give up the darkness and the stars for said conveniences every single day)
I live in a very rural area, every once in a while my house is the only thing lit up for a mile and the bugs descend on it like something from Alfred Hitchcock.
The issue is that so much of night time lighting is wasteful and excessive, not that lighting doesn't enhance the world for humans.
I know for a fact that just putting old school light shutters on streetlights so they don't leak into, say, bedrooms and stay focused on pavement and sidewalks, and dimming them off hours, would be a huge change that doesn't diminish utility at all.
> a huge change that doesn't diminish utility at all.
It does though, by redirecting funds & human effort that could be used for more lighting.
Here's a counter-anecdote though, to give you hope.
In Bondi in Sydney there's a lighting upgrade underway on the beach promenade; the plan was circulated so I got to take a look. As you hoped they indeed did deeply consider throw angles and what's lit & unlit, and ran a competitive tender to choose among many vendors, settling on one they lauded for their flexibility in offering products that can throw at specific angles and leave specific areas unlit. In the plan published for public comments they specify the exact angles needed with diagrams and everything. So it's possible! It requires public servants to go above and beyond, which does happen, just not all the time and not in all the places. But it does happen!
I once saw motion activated streetlights that went from dim to bright as cars approached. It seemed very futuristic, and I wish a lot more places had them.
> there are plenty of dark places just outside your city
In the eastern half of the US and the western 3/4 of mainland europe, there are very few spots that are below bortle 4. In these regions of the world, people in big cities (i.e. most people) would still need to drive 1-2 hours just to get to bortle 4, let alone below that.
If you live in England, for example, there is nowhere you can go to see a truly dark night sky. If you live in New York City, it’s a 4 hour drive, and even that isn’t completely dark.
I wish there were completely dark places outside of my city that were easy drives. It takes me about 2 hours to get to a b3. b1 is about 9, with a decent amount of speeding. And the difference between the two is massive.
If you go talk to professional astronomers about this, they're pretty practical, and thankfully, they can be. The single biggest improvement we can make is shielding the directionality of the lights - and not using harsh bright white lights. Thankfully, doing both of these actually improves the usability for the lights for their intended purposes.
Down at the Macdonald Observatory in Ft. Davis they have worked with surrounding cities, industrial compounds, etc., to get light pollution down. I was watching a presentation they gave on the subject and a large industrial complex moved from fairly un-targeted bright white floodlights to the more yellow/amber lights that shielded upwards reflection - the peak brightness was lower, but it covered things much more evenly, didn't impact your night vision as much when working in it, which then kept darker spots from being pitch black holes like they were with the bright white floodlights. They improved safety for their workers - measurably! - and significantly reduced the amount of light being polluted back up into the sky.
And no, the loss of dark skies is a real issue. The article points out multiple issues not even related to human enjoyment of dark skies, but literally impacting our ecosystems. These are real and measured and not debated. If you are going to accuse this of being clickbait, perhaps engage with the actual points in the article and point out how they aren't actually of concern and why?
The one big reason I would love to live in the past or have a time machine is to see a true night sky. Sick of the light washed-out and satellite specked one we have now.
Seriously. I moved here. Even northern lights can be elusive due to this (plus, I live in a city). And where I live, I can read outside at night so the best time to see dark is during the cold times.
But more to the point, there is a lot of light pollution here. The best places are inland and plenty of other places get much darker. If you want to check out dark places, I've linked a light pollution map.
I live on a small farm a few miles from the closest town. It's not totally pitch dark, but on a clear night you can see the Milky Way and sometimes on my way back inside after doing evening chores, I'll just stand there staring up at the sky. It never gets old.
Does feel a bit eerie on moonless nights when the coyotes start howling though.
Moonless, overcast and still autumn nights out in middle of nowhere are one of most scary feelings I have experienced. True primal fear.
A spot of light around your dwelling, and a sea of nothing around. Barely able to make out the treeline against the sky. Hearing grows keener, mind amplifies the sound of every falling leaf into a predator stalking the forest. Standing there in the light you feel horribly exposed, everything can see you.
The lizard brain awakens and screams at you to get out, get away, hide! Your consciousness brain knows that the worst thing out there is probably a fox. But the primal parts responsible for your basic survival want none of that logic. They scream for a hiding hole.
Story time! I used to live in Bahrain, which is an archipelago. When I was a kid my family and friends took a boat out to Umm Jaleed Island (nicknamed Bird Poop Island) for the night. Zero light pollution, we had tents but chose to stare up at the stars and get pinched by crabs, enjoying the quiet.
grew up in dubai in the 80s, and we went to a beach in fujairah once which had not just a wonderfully starry sky, but the most amazing bioluminescence in the ocean. don't think i've experienced both things together since then.
I'm fortunate to now live under Bortle 3 skies. I got a telescope when I was a kid and stayed hooked on amateur astronomy for most of my life. But back then I lived in the city with Bortle 8 or 9 night skies...I kinda lost interest in the hobby.
In 2011 I left the Dallas Fort Worth area and headed west, met a nice girl that lives on a 180 acre family farm and the night skies are amazing! You can see the dark voids (dense dust) snaking through the Milky Way.
Now, I'm saving money to build a small observatory out front, new telescope and a permanent pier to set it all on.
To be honest, I think this is a very unbalanced take. Better illumination stops crime and traffic accidents and I'm not willing to pay with human lives to see the stars obviously. The effect on wildlife and plants is certainly to be considered but this article is from the U.S.A. and I live in a country with far better illumination than that place and I've seen stories multiple times from foreigners who moved here and noticed that immediately, they stopped being afraid at night because the country is so well-lit and crime numbers are low as a consequence.
Human lives are a big price to pay to see some stars.
It is incredibly contentious on whether or not illumination does anything here - perception is not necessarily reality. Lots of studies show zero impact on crime, some show significant.
But even if it is true and we do need light, it does need to be stark white LEDs shining with huge intensity while unshielded.
Shielding prevents light from going directly into useless places for your purpose (e.g. up into the air, when you are trying to secure the parking lot or road or whatever) and polluting things. Not using bright white LEDs helps reduce the spectrum usage and also is just better for human night vision on top of being better for light pollution.
If an area is not basically universally lit, using stark bright lights to light what you can see actually reduces the amount you can see at night in total - those dark spots that under better (not brighter!) lighting would be able for you to look into and see end up becoming too dark because your eyes have had to adjust to expose for much brighter lighting.
So even if the premise is true - and it might not be - there are still huge huge huge improvements to be made on how it is implemented in most of the world.
As a stargazer, I've long been annoyed by one particularly bright satellite. It seems to have a cycle of 29 1/2 days and covers about 1/2 degree of arc.
OMG, it is so bright that it blots out all but the brightest stars. Something needs to be done about this.
On the off-chance you're not already aware, the US government considered exactly this during the Cold War! The mid 20th century is not beating the lead poisoning allegations in my view...
It is certainly enjoying collaborating with the clouds to prevent me from finishing up all of my hours of OIII integration for my WR-134 project. If the combo between it and the clouds keeps up, I might have to wait until next year to finish it, lol.
My city (low density suburb of Los Angeles) has outdoor lighting ordinances that spell out rules: all outdoor lighting must point downward, street lights are not allowed, holiday lights must be removed a week after New Years. There are also ordinances governing disputes--fees to get the inspector out at night, paperwork, etc.
If you want dark skies, take some friends to a city council meeting and make your case for similar ordinances. It's doable, even in a place like Los Angeles.
I know fellow stargazers who keep local dark spots secret for fear of drawing attention to them because they are that rare. Places that are dark and legal to be all night are even rarer (public boat ramps are a good place to look). It might be different on the US west coast where there's a lot of public land.
words can't describe how much I hate how everything is covered with white hospital LED lamps instead of the warm orange lamps that gave that 'night' feeling.
such a sad state of affairs. everything good must end I guess.
Depends where you are. I am in Canada, and yeah we have that too. Street lights give off that terrible white light. And many people even choose to light their houses with that blue-ish light. I grew up in The Netherlands, and it's totally different there. Street lights are yellow and dim, and so are almost the lights in people's houses. Feels way more natural. I even noticed a difference in Christmas lights. Here in Canada everyone has those bright RGB LEDs, often even cycling through flashing patterns. When I went to The Netherlands for Christmas a couple of years ago, I saw almost exclusively the cozy yellow Christmas lights in trees etc.
“You merely adopted the darkness. I was born in it. Molded by it. I didn’t see the light until I was already a man. By then it was nothing to me but blinding.”
Darkness is one of the benefits of a high trust society.
Do we need bright white flood lights in places like Portland? Yes, they strongly correlate with reduced crime on the premise. This is the cost of a medium trust society.
Find a way to not have people regularly vandalize and B&E; many of the countermeasures can go away.
I live in a dark sky community and my property is unlit. I don’t worry about people walking onto my property at 2am.
This is a common myth. Increased lighting does not reduce crime or improve safety[0,1], especially not poorly designed lighting - like the excessively bright and blue-tinted spotlights - which can even make things worse[2], by increasing glare, preventing our eyes from adjusting to the night, and increasing the number and contrast of relative dark spots.
Regardless, if one still lights up their own property due to anxiety, it's not a justification for causing light pollution. That light should remain on their property with angling and shielding.
> It is concluded that street lighting continues to be an effective intervention in preventing crime in public places. A narrative synthesis of effects of the eight new studies and a meta-analysis of 17 studies confirmed this conclusion. In pooling the effects of 17 studies that could be included in the meta-analysis, it was found that street lighting led to a significant 14% decrease in crime in experimental areas compared with comparable control areas.
Having access to dark skies doesn't mean you automatically appreciate them. I suspect this may be one reason we lost them so easily. As I child, I grew up at 5000+ ft with dark skies and the Milky Way was often visible. Funnily, no one seemed to be aware of it. Once I learned what it was (from a magazine), I pointed it out to a grown up and they dismissed it immediately as a cloud. Much later I learned that clouds from dark sites look dark, not light.
I just came back from a trip to Yellowstone, staying at an RV Park in Idaho that had designated themselves as a dark sky RV park, which mean no external lights after 10pm. The night sky was glorious with the Milky Way visible almost from horizon to horizon. I wish more city dwellers could experience this so we could do something to tame the completely unncessary and wasteful light pollution.
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[ 1.6 ms ] story [ 6.9 ms ] threadI only recently learned that visual snow syndrome is a thing, and that most people don’t have it. For me, there is a faint background of multicolor static (analog TV on a dead channel, for those who remember that) on everything, all the time. Light washes it out, so it’s only in the deep dark that I’m absolutely surrounded by it. (It’s basically visual tinnitus, which in turn lead me to discover that I’ve also had auditory tinnitus my whole life, it’s just a soft static not a “ringing” so I never realized it was the same phenomenon.)
I don't think I notice it that much with the night sky unless the stars are faint though.
To clarify, a similar case: most people are able to see Haidinger's Brush [1], even if they have never noticed it. Why? Because it's not very noticable.
1: https://www.polarization.com/haidinger/haidinger.html
It's a badly named syndrome in my view, since most people younger than me have no idea what TV snow is, and some of the symptoms aren't visual.
I did also have a cool experience, deep in the backcountry at a high elevation camp some years ago: we went to sleep in a gale, the tent flapping all around, with a cloudy sky. I thought we’d get a big storm, but I woke up hot at 3am, the air totally still. I slid out of the tent and the sky was completely crystal clear. An incredible spread of stars. I watched for a while and noticed a reddish glow on the horizon. We were so far out and it wrapped around in all directions, so I knew it couldn’t possibly have been a town, but I was puzzled. I learned about airglow when we got out of the woods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airglow
I've only really experienced this once in my life. I was young teen, my family was visiting some family friends at a remote cabin. I woke up during the middle of the night and went out. It was a crystal clear winter night, and I was completely blown away at what I saw.
Once I had gotten over the shock, I thought "no wonder they called it the milky way". It was so bright, it felt like a new moon just smeared all across the sky.
Sadly not had the chance to experience that again. The then-remote cabin got swarmed by hundreds of others and so it's no longer pitch dark at night there.
I have it as a goal to get out in a really dark zone and see it again.
For reference, the Bortle Scale[*] goes from 1 to 9, with 1 being pristine darkness and 9 being Manhattan.
Also worth noting that the Milky Way is brighter in early summer, late May to mid-July, as that's when the Earth's night sky is facing the most towards the Galactic Core. Go find yourself some deep dark sky on a new moon, and sit back and enjoy the enormity of the cosmos.
[*] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bortle_scale#/media/File:How_l...
When I was young, I used to lie on my back staring up at the sky, trying to grasp the incomprehensibly vast distances I was gazing at. It's really nuts when you think of it that way. The mental vertigo of it all is extraordinary.
I wonder if the psychological impact is really the absence of the true night sky that we have. Maybe the awe we feel at seeing the true night is what we’re supposed to feel? Something to think about.
Nightfall by Isaac Asimov
This is the most accurate map and it still under reports light pollution under 21.5sqm https://www.darkskysites.com/
Worse satellite constilations may make it impossible to have a dark sky anywhere: https://arxiv.org/html/2604.09427v1
Led lights have caused such a massive increase in light pollution, let alone the effects on humans due to the blue spike, that they should be banned outright.
I was lucky enough to witness a thunderstorm over the desert, too. Too far for any noise to reach me, I just saw the clouds lighting up on the horizon. Incredibly beautiful, and not a little spooky. I totally understand why there are so many UFO sightings there.
I can see the milky way but I wouldn't describe it as "a new moon just smeared all across the sky" like one of the other commenters. It's more like just a vaguely higher-density strip of stars.
My location is 21 SQM according to the DarkSkySites map.
In my view we should simply have improved on what already existed, instead of blue-pumped LEDs we should have used monochromatic amber ones like the SOX streetlights which were once ubiquitous in the UK. Night actually looked like night back then, rather than a cheap and nasty approximation of daytime.
They are friendly in the same way the feeding a baby petrol is. Sure it's more energy efficient, but humans aren't machines where input = output. It's going to take decades to get rid of all of them, and then even longer for all the cancers that blue light causes to work themselves out. It's amazing that we invented a new asbestos and put a green wash on it.
Blue light gives people cancer?
In mice the link is clear and simple to test.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11311462/
In people for what cancers have been investigates there is also evidence of a link, but not enough studies have been done to say that it's the case for all cancers. This is absense of evidence rather than evidence of absence.
Because they're so close to the earth's surface it doesn't happen all night because they'll be in darkness too.
The long exposures pick up far more of them than I can see why my eyes, but I still end up seeing plenty of starlink satellites just looking up, even at 2 or 3 in the morning.
It wouldn't be possible for them to get direct sunlight that low during the middle of the night. Unless you are at very high latitudes in summer.
I've not done any real research here - it didn't seem odd to me that I could see them, so I haven't done any investigation at all here until these comments.
The moon of course has the same brightness, as if you were in a city. This is the ability of your eyes, to see in the darkness, if there are no too bright other light sources.
Unfortunately, I have never seen stars the same way again. Whenever I think I might see them, I encounter some light pollution which dulls them down.
Oh, what I'd give to experience darkness and to be under the stars.
(That's obviously a lie because I love my conveniences and give up the darkness and the stars for said conveniences every single day)
While also - paradoxically - forgetting that there are plenty of dark places just outside your city if you're willing to drive to them.
Perhaps it's in service of baiting you to click.
I know for a fact that just putting old school light shutters on streetlights so they don't leak into, say, bedrooms and stay focused on pavement and sidewalks, and dimming them off hours, would be a huge change that doesn't diminish utility at all.
It does though, by redirecting funds & human effort that could be used for more lighting.
Here's a counter-anecdote though, to give you hope.
In Bondi in Sydney there's a lighting upgrade underway on the beach promenade; the plan was circulated so I got to take a look. As you hoped they indeed did deeply consider throw angles and what's lit & unlit, and ran a competitive tender to choose among many vendors, settling on one they lauded for their flexibility in offering products that can throw at specific angles and leave specific areas unlit. In the plan published for public comments they specify the exact angles needed with diagrams and everything. So it's possible! It requires public servants to go above and beyond, which does happen, just not all the time and not in all the places. But it does happen!
In the eastern half of the US and the western 3/4 of mainland europe, there are very few spots that are below bortle 4. In these regions of the world, people in big cities (i.e. most people) would still need to drive 1-2 hours just to get to bortle 4, let alone below that.
If you live in England, for example, there is nowhere you can go to see a truly dark night sky. If you live in New York City, it’s a 4 hour drive, and even that isn’t completely dark.
If you go talk to professional astronomers about this, they're pretty practical, and thankfully, they can be. The single biggest improvement we can make is shielding the directionality of the lights - and not using harsh bright white lights. Thankfully, doing both of these actually improves the usability for the lights for their intended purposes.
Down at the Macdonald Observatory in Ft. Davis they have worked with surrounding cities, industrial compounds, etc., to get light pollution down. I was watching a presentation they gave on the subject and a large industrial complex moved from fairly un-targeted bright white floodlights to the more yellow/amber lights that shielded upwards reflection - the peak brightness was lower, but it covered things much more evenly, didn't impact your night vision as much when working in it, which then kept darker spots from being pitch black holes like they were with the bright white floodlights. They improved safety for their workers - measurably! - and significantly reduced the amount of light being polluted back up into the sky.
And no, the loss of dark skies is a real issue. The article points out multiple issues not even related to human enjoyment of dark skies, but literally impacting our ecosystems. These are real and measured and not debated. If you are going to accuse this of being clickbait, perhaps engage with the actual points in the article and point out how they aren't actually of concern and why?
There's a particular observatory in Hawaii that is supposed to be amazing.
I'm sure there's plenty of other spots!
https://lightpollutionmap.app/
Seriously. I moved here. Even northern lights can be elusive due to this (plus, I live in a city). And where I live, I can read outside at night so the best time to see dark is during the cold times.
But more to the point, there is a lot of light pollution here. The best places are inland and plenty of other places get much darker. If you want to check out dark places, I've linked a light pollution map.
https://www.lightpollutionmap.info/#zoom=3.67&lat=66.1877&lo...
https://www.lightpollutionmap.info/#zoom=3.68&lat=40.8496&lo...
Does feel a bit eerie on moonless nights when the coyotes start howling though.
A spot of light around your dwelling, and a sea of nothing around. Barely able to make out the treeline against the sky. Hearing grows keener, mind amplifies the sound of every falling leaf into a predator stalking the forest. Standing there in the light you feel horribly exposed, everything can see you.
The lizard brain awakens and screams at you to get out, get away, hide! Your consciousness brain knows that the worst thing out there is probably a fox. But the primal parts responsible for your basic survival want none of that logic. They scream for a hiding hole.
No need to waste energy lighting up the sky; direct it toward what you need illuminated.
Also, the company the article mentions is Reflect Orbital.
Love the idea of harnessing more sun, but really disturbed by the potential destruction of darkness that it could cause when deployed at scale.
Life on Earth evolved with the night.
In 2011 I left the Dallas Fort Worth area and headed west, met a nice girl that lives on a 180 acre family farm and the night skies are amazing! You can see the dark voids (dense dust) snaking through the Milky Way. Now, I'm saving money to build a small observatory out front, new telescope and a permanent pier to set it all on.
Human lives are a big price to pay to see some stars.
Is this that "vibrant culture" you keep going on about?
But even if it is true and we do need light, it does need to be stark white LEDs shining with huge intensity while unshielded.
Shielding prevents light from going directly into useless places for your purpose (e.g. up into the air, when you are trying to secure the parking lot or road or whatever) and polluting things. Not using bright white LEDs helps reduce the spectrum usage and also is just better for human night vision on top of being better for light pollution.
If an area is not basically universally lit, using stark bright lights to light what you can see actually reduces the amount you can see at night in total - those dark spots that under better (not brighter!) lighting would be able for you to look into and see end up becoming too dark because your eyes have had to adjust to expose for much brighter lighting.
So even if the premise is true - and it might not be - there are still huge huge huge improvements to be made on how it is implemented in most of the world.
OMG, it is so bright that it blots out all but the brightest stars. Something needs to be done about this.
Well, I'm sold. Let's nuke the moon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_A119
If you want dark skies, take some friends to a city council meeting and make your case for similar ordinances. It's doable, even in a place like Los Angeles.
I miss the 70s/80s/90s era of street lights where they were warm and easy on the eyes.
such a sad state of affairs. everything good must end I guess.
Do we need bright white flood lights in places like Portland? Yes, they strongly correlate with reduced crime on the premise. This is the cost of a medium trust society.
Find a way to not have people regularly vandalize and B&E; many of the countermeasures can go away.
I live in a dark sky community and my property is unlit. I don’t worry about people walking onto my property at 2am.
Regardless, if one still lights up their own property due to anxiety, it's not a justification for causing light pollution. That light should remain on their property with angling and shielding.
[0]https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/chicago-...
[1]http://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2015/07/08/jech-2015-20601...
[2]https://theconversation.com/more-lighting-alone-does-not-cre...
> It is concluded that street lighting continues to be an effective intervention in preventing crime in public places. A narrative synthesis of effects of the eight new studies and a meta-analysis of 17 studies confirmed this conclusion. In pooling the effects of 17 studies that could be included in the meta-analysis, it was found that street lighting led to a significant 14% decrease in crime in experimental areas compared with comparable control areas.
[1] https://bra.se/download/18.47bb43da192711ebb374ea5/172950596...
I just came back from a trip to Yellowstone, staying at an RV Park in Idaho that had designated themselves as a dark sky RV park, which mean no external lights after 10pm. The night sky was glorious with the Milky Way visible almost from horizon to horizon. I wish more city dwellers could experience this so we could do something to tame the completely unncessary and wasteful light pollution.