Persistence is something I care about, Tmux allow that between different sessions, local or otherwise, Windows Remote Desktop also makes it simple to continue work remotely. What bothers me is that the OS will eventually need to reboot, and the user is expected to reconfigure the sessions afterwards, at least partially.
I think a modern computer should be able to update its software, kernel included, in a way that the state of the userland could be kept, even with an actual reboot.
Vertical tabs is a feature in some modern browsers (all?), toggled in settings
Virtual desktops might help some people where you just ctrl+alt+left/right to move to them, instead of multiple monitors (where applicable). Or just fullscreen apps and I think it's like ctrl+tab to switch between a bunch of them
The only way to keep all the files on the filesystem is probably to avoid the silos
I guess we could ironically / unironically ask AI for some OS design tips for our setups haha
Yeah, I was expecting yet another post about going back to 1980's UNIX, CP/M, MS-DOS/Novell, MVS, VMS,... experience from people that didn't had to put up with the experience in first place.
> The best two examples of this are the Arc browser and Chrome OS. But I think Arc is actually the more interesting of the two experiments. Their first innovation was to break the idea of tabs at the top and instead move it to be a sidebar model.
I will forever hate Arc for popularizing vertical tabs the way they did.
Vertical tabs were a thing since at least the Tree Style Tabs extension (2007), except the Tree Style Tabs were infinitely cooler, because they were a tree, not a list, and right click->open in new tab, would open the new tab as a child of the current tab.
So you could have a hacker news tab during your break, start opening a bunch of articles, read through them, simply un-expand the HN sub-tree, go to work, and then re-expand it during your next break.
Because of Arc, everyone is now implementing vertical tabs, but no one is implementing Tree Style Tabs, and, probably no one ever will again.
Promote alternatives to expensive and adversarial operating systems that limit your options.
Even if someone isn't inclined to be computer literate, a shared understanding that the interface can be tailored to your preferences and that many flavors of interface exist, would lead to improvements IMHO. This is already normalized in the Linux world, but that world is very small.
I really think DDH may be onto something with Omarchy Quattro — just provide (reasonably) sane defaults and have LLMs built into a Linux distro. The user can describe the operating system he wants, and the clankers handle fiddling with configs
It could be a good idea if LLMs actually worked reliably. Alas, they do not, and so it is the height of foolishness to build stuff on top that shaky foundation.
"... because HTML email support is must have nowadays ..."
I don't find this to be the case.
I use (al)pine exclusively and with only three or four hacks/workarounds manage a normal, modern email workflow.
Unlike SMS where my unix-based telecom results in green bubbles, in the email world there is not even that small indication that anything is different on my end ...
This talk about "the future" is nonsense. UI is art, not engineering. What some love, others will inevitably hate. This is where unix/linux is light-years ahead of the competition. Unlike Windows/OSX/iOS, you can make your own mixtape.
That, and Steve Jobs died a long-ass time ago. The hand-wringing over "config files" in the age of qwen3 you can run on a 10-year-old GPU is no longer as relevant as it once was. Language got us this far. The checkboxes and picklists of PARC were a detour that is now (thankfully) in our rear-view mirror. Config files are awesome.
Afyer years of using tiling WMs, Niri was such a huge improvement. You don't really have to think about anything anymore, it just clicks. You always know where windows are (lile with tiling), but you also don't have to worry how to place them.
I've used paperspoon but it's very laggy. Paneru is better but 3 finger swipe up or down shows all windows on all workspaces which makes it impossible to pick the window you want. (which paperwm didn't do)
OmniWM is pretty snappy! Lots of unhandled cases that aren’t even really edge cases. Floating windows and custom menus from the toolbar are poorly handled, as is window minimization (the BSP space for a minimized window remains held). Seems to be moving in the right direction, though.
I used OmniWM for a year (and even sponsored it) and functionally, it was great. However, the project velocity was too much (partially AI-driven, partially the inability to say no) and I was constantly forced to keep up with breaking config changes (just use an LLM to fix your config — a GH issue literally said that) and Sequoia compatibility was added, then taken back away, which was the last straw for me. I switched to the fork Nehir and things… just work. It’s got less going on, but it’s very stable and nice.
I just wish I had a polished shell experience that was not a vram hog. Quickshell (multiple big monitors) seems to hog a lot of it, ashell and ironbar are better on resource management but require a lot of customization.
Maybe this one is more your eye pace https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWzGMEKtdbI the videe you linked was specifically done to demonstrate the responsivness of a much older OmniWM version
Yeah I wish the author tried herdr or read about Superlogical rather than assume UI widgets could absorb some optimal functionality from tmux or screen
Kind of weird that the author does not make clear what a "normal person" is, despite this being a central concept to their article.
Personally I don't think it is normal to be unable to double click on i3wm in some graphical apt wrapper and then pick it from a scroll list at login. People use shortcuts in Windows all the time. Having more than one workspace might have been foreign to most a decade or two ago, but these days external monitors are common and workspaces are basically that.
I've seen people who I would not consider abnormal go from weird misconceptions about i3wm to efficiently sending around windows between workspaces and screens in a day. If you want you can also click your way through it, and configuration is generated for you after you decide whether you want Alt or Super as the core command key. Defaults are rather sensible, so you don't have to fiddle with them until you've got some experience.
Historically user interfaces on web pages and in Windows and Mac OS:s has changed quite a bit and people who I think most would consider normal managed to adapt.
> The ideal would be "across my entire computer and applications, what are the recent files I have interacted with" and expand that out to include emails and Teams/Slacks and everything. I should be able to see everything going on with my machine, search through it and not care if its stored inside of Slack or iCloud or whatever. Single pane of glass.
Nope. This would be great if it worked.
This idea of getting rid of the file system is very old, tired and has failed. And failed. And failed.
…and you know apps hate? Letting you out of their walled gardens.
> Microsoft tried it, people didn't like it,
Yup.
> but I think the concept makes sense.
Nope.
You’re going to have to do better than trying this again.
Something something local LLM? Mm.
It’s a Hard Problem. The kind of problem that random engineers look at and go “doesn’t seem that hard, I could do that in a weekend”.
…
> In the interest of full disclosure I think this is gonna take many weekends of work to even get a functional demo running. So I'll do my best, but be patient.
Okay, to be fair, the author did acknowledge that it’s a lot of work and it’s hard; and I look forward to seeing the result, because experiments in this space are interesting, the idea of a visual tmux maybe has some legs…
…but I think this project is too ambitious to succeed.
Not being the default isn't what stops these concept desktops from taking off; it’s that people don’t like them.
No file system, you just get “tasks” and an LLM to pray to and hope you get your data from?
Not everything is trying to be a walled garden. Only 2 apps on my machine are nonfree (and not productivity ones I would care to integrate like this). But yes it's fundamentally hard
I like articles that discuss out of ordinary approaches. This is one of those, and I relate to the pain the writer also has.
However...
> Different people use windows totally differently.
The older I get, the more impatient I am with this. In the industry, we normalized that high paid software developers (who are way better programmers, or infra people than I am) waste hundreds of engineering hours with their absolutely broken window management, and command-tab hell. Whenever I have to witness a screenshare of a colleague, my time is also wasted.
I wish this would be an interview gating: show us how you manage yourself in this big monorepo, switching tasks, windows, tabs, desktops, SSHs etc. Do not normalize noob time wasting.
Different people also use pianos differently. Yet, we don't appreciate a noob pushing random keys around it. It would be unpleasant to the ear, just how unpleasant (painful) it is to witness macOSs/gnomes bubblegum horror of sloppily animated chaos.
Back to my point: windows (as in viewports) are with us for many decades. I don't care if you tile, stack, infinite scroll them. Just be productive. Invest upfront in learning, be fast, and be able to explain what I you try to show me on screen.
There will be no one size fits for all, and that part I understand. But please have more dexterity with your desktop abilities than my grandma.
It's hard to argue with this, yet, I never learned to touch type or type fast, never bothered to learn a bunch of vim or emacs hot keys or rice a vim setup. I use pretty basic editors and ides that barely qualify as ides.
Everyone else around me blazes at the simple act of typing. And far fewer but some have powerful vim setups where they can do inarguably useful things fast.
You would be agonized to watch me type code.
But for 30+ years it never mattered. I spend 10x more time thinking than typing, or jumping around refactoring 300 things all over the place every 5 minutes, and propduce results that work, are efficient, and fail far more gracefully than everyone else.
(I'm not claiming to trade iteration for get-it-right-the-first-time, I obviously iterate and I'd even say the correctness of the final result is mostly the result of iteration).
Maybe it doesn't conflict with your point because even so I wouldn't exactly say I'm no more functional than your grandma, so maybe typing and vim/ide-ricing are just a couple of exceptions that I can afford to get wrong as long as everything else is good.
Though I don't know what else there even is to be "fast" at. I don't think I really even understand how one can be good or bad at mere window management. ssh-ing? What is there to that? knowing how to manage keys?
However, all in all, I like this. Even if it means I'd currently fall on the wrong side of this idea, I think I agree with this idea to have an expectation of basic competency with the tools in any field one would presume to get paid for. Maybe even now I should just suck it up and learn to type and develop a powerful vim setup.
Yes, the bar sometimes I have to witness, is low, very very low. I say that someone like you who even thinks and can rephrase thoughts about this, is already of the upper percentiles of capability.
OTOH presenting is a different skill. Maybe I should have elaborated that as a field expert of a (not-so-)niche thing, I often get contacted by random colleagues who will ask me to "let them quickly share their screen to show what the problem is". Their demonstrated horrific inability to "do computers" is surprising and upsetting.
Therefore I thought about this a lot in the past. Maybe the windows concept is wrong? Should there be more experiments like OP proposing? And slowly I start to believe, that probably the windows concept is okay, since you and me and thousands of others are capable, and it's just a skill issue.
I think the way both current windows and gnome(1) work out of the box are completely obtuse and when forced to use one I only become functional after undoing a dozen arbitrary, unnecessary, and actively self-inflicted wounds to make the environment minimally sane and utilitarian. So, there is a possible argument to say that bumbling was thrust upon them.
But really that just explains and excuses my mom, who does not work in any proximity to any flavor of IT.
(1) mac too just slightly less so, and I'm no fan just to be clear, I just think mac started out the worst in this way, then didn't get much worse over time while windows & gnome both got insanely worse
Every time I have to do something on someone's bog standard machine, I just think "how do you people live like this?"
Not that many years ago a flat unadorned description of win11 today would be taken as completely unbelievable hyperbole movie gag that could never get that crazy for real obviously. Funny because of recognizable elements of truth but too stupid to be realistic.
The frog has simply been boiled exactly slow enough I guess.
(I had a bunch of descriptions of actual absurd and perverse things to show examples but the comment was a wall of text!)
Honestly, I'd rather work with engineers trying to build maintainable code than engineers who spend all the time trying to be a power user in the command line. It's possible to be both, but bad code wastes my time much more than a demo with a couple of hiccups.
I didn't mention cli on purpose, and I don't care if they can rearrange their commits in the command line or in some fancy gui, as long as they can do it. Also rarely care about aesthetics (e.g. ricing).
I'd rather observed correlation of experts who can navigate their GUIs / TUIs, and being good software engineers.
I very nearly didn't check this out because I didn't realise the focus was going to be much more general OS, but it's a great piece, well thought through.
Interesting idea. My problem is that one “stream” usually spans multiple apps that silo data. So i have an email from a client and command line and a tab in chrome and maybe a note and an excel file. There are of course exceptions to this, but in real life we bring tools to the project not the other way around. Naturally some “projects” might have sub projects, or some might be transient - a quick email reply. You might organize your digital life this way - with virtual desktops, but why can’t the computer keep track?
Most CLI and TUI (And some GUI apps) does handles options and configuration flags. I can open mutt and cmus with a complete different configuration and database, but I don't think something like Apple Mail can do this.
None use the file system in anything like the way their unix underpinning would have files be understood or organised for users. Hard to even know where your files are without asking the app to deal with them one by one. Predated phones and even Spotlight doesn’t do a good job of showing/knowing where your files are.
I remember it like this. Windows XP and earlier was a horrible era for stability and security and the world was overall less connected. Phones were always on and always connected. The iPhone was honestly the first stable internet device, that didn't sleep or pause, and the first internet device many people had that wasn't infected by viruses.
No it wasn’t. XP was quite solid in terms of stability, miles beyond its predecessors. You have to remember that its mediate predecessor was Windows ME.
It was also far more secure, but it was still not nearly secure enough.
> ”Upon its release, Windows XP received critical acclaim, noting increased performance and stability (especially compared to Windows Me)…”
Weird that contemporary articles praised its stability then.
> That's one way to say "plagued by a decade of botnets."
No, it’s a way of saying that it introduced real identity-based security isolation to the OS. Prior to this every user had full access to the entire system incisions everyone else’s data who shared the system.
Unfortunately Windows XP was not hardened to the reality of the internet. (Nor were any of its predecessors.)
It was hailed for its improvements in stability from the time it was released. My recollection was that it was a massive improvement over 98/ME lineage. It was mostly a wash vs Windows 2000.
Yes, it became more stable with the service packs, but it was a significantly more stable OS out of the gates than anything consumer users had been getting.
Rampant malware was a separate (and very significant) issue.
I was a windows 2k user during that time because win xp was horribly unstable till sp3. It was rock solid after that, finally as good as windows 2k. Though I never liked the Fisher price color scheme.
> My recollection was that it was a massive improvement over 98/ME lineage.
That much is true.
> It was mostly a wash vs Windows 2000.
No, not really. They did some empirical testing at the university I went to and the conclusion was that they kept the Windows boxes on 2k almost until Vista.
My university switched pretty quickly. But I do not know how empirical that decision was. Anecdotally all of my friends made the switch from 2k and were fine with XP. But again, anecdote. Your university apparently found that 2k was meaningfully more stable for them.
Sure, but there were also multiple points in time (even after SP2) when you had to unplug the network to install it, because in a couple minutes of being online or in a large LAN it would get infected during the setup and shutdown. You also needed all updates and a third-party firewall on a CD. Win+R shutdown /a is still in my fingertips after all these years.
There were plenty of internet connected phones before the iphone. Nokia, Samsung all had phones with full internet access and browsers and other apps. I think there was even a Java mobile app standard called J2ME.
It is the age old conflict, what is better a verb focused or noun focused world.
Is the core the database(the filesystem) and the apps roam around in it, or is the core the apps each with their own database.
I grew up with noun focused operating systems, which is probably why I prefer them. Here are your things and you can use various actions on them(some valid some not). And as such find the verb focused ones unpleasant to use. Here are your actions each includes it's things. But where are my things? It does not matter, each action knows where it's correct things are. But I want my things, I know they are in there somewhere. (fights the phone for a while)
> Is the core the database(the filesystem) and the apps roam around in it, or is the core the apps each with their own database.
The first option is evidently better for the user. The filesystem is a neutral entity with a well-defined interface, whereas each app is on its own journey. For a period of time that journey may align with the user's workflow, and both are happy. But there inevitably comes a time where the app and the user diverge, and for the user, it is imperative that they be able to switch to another app without losing access to their data.
To a user, the data matters most, and the filesystem, because of its neutrality, is the best model for access.
But that leads to a thing where an app has a file format that contains a bunch of its data, and it acts like a mini-database anyway, except now the user needs to remember where it is located. Then if there's data that links between multiple files and doesn't belong to a particular one, it is blurred again.
Yup it's not perfect, but in the filesystem model, the file continues to exist until an alternative solution emerges. In the app model, the file (and associated data) may be locked away forever.
> It is the age old conflict, what is better a verb focused or noun focused world.
Reading your comment earlier, while trying to make dinner now, made me realize that the reason I hate the layout of my house might be the same reason I never got into Vim...
To get to the kitchen, I have to walk through the dining room, where all the plates, bowls, glasses are. But I can’t grab what I need yet, because I haven’t seen the food. I first need to get to the kitchen, look at what’s there, and decide what I’m going to make... Only then do I know which tools I need.
My house verb first, but my brain works noun first.
Can't give house-layout recommendations, but if you don't like Vim's verb-first syntax (y3w for "yank 3 words"), then you could try https://kakoune.org/ or https://helix-editor.com/, both of which (I'm told) operate noun-first (first you select the words, then you press the command key).
But Vim can also operate noun-first: just press `v` to go into visual mode. Then you drag out a selection, and press the command. No need to switch editors and relearn all the places where they differ. (If you're already used to Vim, of course, which might not be the case for you).
Which is why I've never tried Helix or Kakoune myself. Because the big selling point, noun-first operation, is already in Vim, just one keystroke away. Multiple cursors are a neat idea, and when I have to use VS Code I find them quite useful for doing things that I would have done with Vim macros. But I've already learned Vim macros, and there are few cases (though not none) where multiple cursors would have made something easier than the macro-based approach.
Anyway, point is, for anyone else who might stumble across this comment somehow, that Vim allows noun-first operation too: just go into `v`isual selection mode, select text with motion commands, and then press the operation command key.
Years ago I bumped into Sublime Text, which introduced me to multi cursors. I ended up becoming quite good at using regex for search, then pressing Alt+Enter to select all the matches. That satisfied my multi-selection needs, and although I tried getting into Vim later, I felt that the effort was too much and my setup already made me quite fast at editing code in multiple places.
Windows shows my Desktop folder in four distinct locations in the native file manager. Some representations of my home folder have more files and folders in them than others.
I use Bash via Git4Windows as much as possible, but even there... `cd ~/git; cd ../Downloads; cd ../git` doesn't work because `..` from `~/Downloads/` is `~/One Drive/`.
It's approximately equivalent to a fuse driver at a mountpoint. It remaps to a hidden cache for something approximately equivalent to webdav.
You should not throw your laptop because of the specifics of how the onedrive integration works. You should throw it because the onedrive integration is invasive and obnoxious.
No, that was just Apple and others realizing that (1) the file system needed some type of wrapper for security purposes, and (2) the move to the cloud didn't work very well with local file systems (they still don't... most of my data in the cloud isn't a "file").
This topic is similar to jigs in woodworking - you can get all fancy and over-engineer it but in the end, does it improve the product/output? If a fancy jig and a gross looking home-made jig both produce a 90 degree corner, what is the added benefit?
I think people put way too much emphasis on things like this with conclusions that they are faster and therefore its better. There is Pareto's law and a point of no return on invested time with this type of endeavor. I would feel better if people started off with "I did this because I can and I like doing things like this" vs. some argument that its better in some way.
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[ 1.3 ms ] story [ 69.6 ms ] threadI think a modern computer should be able to update its software, kernel included, in a way that the state of the userland could be kept, even with an actual reboot.
Virtual desktops might help some people where you just ctrl+alt+left/right to move to them, instead of multiple monitors (where applicable). Or just fullscreen apps and I think it's like ctrl+tab to switch between a bunch of them
The only way to keep all the files on the filesystem is probably to avoid the silos
I guess we could ironically / unironically ask AI for some OS design tips for our setups haha
I've been using Tmux and later Zellij for many years, while I was on Ubuntu's Unity, then Gnome, KDE, i3 and lastly sway.
Until I switched to niri (https://github.com/niri-wm/niri) ... since then I haven't used tmux at all.
Very weird, come to think of.
emacs -> screen -> tmux -> tmux integrated into <terminal app>
appears to be the path.
I guess the fork was "emacs before X" to "emacs after X but we retrofiited some ideas from X into the terminal" -> <the rest is history>
Especially Zmacs and XEmacs, and how their features eventually found a way back into Emacs proper.
I will forever hate Arc for popularizing vertical tabs the way they did.
Vertical tabs were a thing since at least the Tree Style Tabs extension (2007), except the Tree Style Tabs were infinitely cooler, because they were a tree, not a list, and right click->open in new tab, would open the new tab as a child of the current tab.
So you could have a hacker news tab during your break, start opening a bunch of articles, read through them, simply un-expand the HN sub-tree, go to work, and then re-expand it during your next break.
Because of Arc, everyone is now implementing vertical tabs, but no one is implementing Tree Style Tabs, and, probably no one ever will again.
And the latest release also brings back a native RSS reader?
Give it a look. You might like it.
I honestly don't get why they ignore existing options due to configs. Give it a try, maybe it won't be _that_ bad.
Most of the non developers I know don't want to write prose, let alone a .ini file
Even if someone isn't inclined to be computer literate, a shared understanding that the interface can be tailored to your preferences and that many flavors of interface exist, would lead to improvements IMHO. This is already normalized in the Linux world, but that world is very small.
It is multiplexer so survives app kills, and interface is heavily keyboard driven.
I tried running email in it though resigned (and guess what, wrote my own) because HTML email support is must have nowadays.
I don't find this to be the case.
I use (al)pine exclusively and with only three or four hacks/workarounds manage a normal, modern email workflow.
Unlike SMS where my unix-based telecom results in green bubbles, in the email world there is not even that small indication that anything is different on my end ...
That, and Steve Jobs died a long-ass time ago. The hand-wringing over "config files" in the age of qwen3 you can run on a 10-year-old GPU is no longer as relevant as it once was. Language got us this far. The checkboxes and picklists of PARC were a detour that is now (thankfully) in our rear-view mirror. Config files are awesome.
t. i3 user
I've used paperspoon but it's very laggy. Paneru is better but 3 finger swipe up or down shows all windows on all workspaces which makes it impossible to pick the window you want. (which paperwm didn't do)
The vram usage is: niri = ~163mb
--
noctalia = ~221mb ashell = ~2mb ironbar = ~10mb
[0]https://github.com/OmniNull/OmniWM
[1]https://youtu.be/WcHjGkuD2Fc
It's slick, modern, efficient, and up to date.
I encourage trying that or similar.
> I don't have a single fucking clue how MacOS populates this window
Nobody does, but it’s provocative! Gets the people going!
I’ve leaned into Aerospace for window management, herdr for terminal and good ol’ Chrome for browsing.
I put my hope to Superlogical by the Ghostty-guy to solve all my MUX problems
Personally I don't think it is normal to be unable to double click on i3wm in some graphical apt wrapper and then pick it from a scroll list at login. People use shortcuts in Windows all the time. Having more than one workspace might have been foreign to most a decade or two ago, but these days external monitors are common and workspaces are basically that.
I've seen people who I would not consider abnormal go from weird misconceptions about i3wm to efficiently sending around windows between workspaces and screens in a day. If you want you can also click your way through it, and configuration is generated for you after you decide whether you want Alt or Super as the core command key. Defaults are rather sensible, so you don't have to fiddle with them until you've got some experience.
Historically user interfaces on web pages and in Windows and Mac OS:s has changed quite a bit and people who I think most would consider normal managed to adapt.
The assumption that everyone is using a laptop is interesting there.
Is a concept the author needs to get over.
> The ideal would be "across my entire computer and applications, what are the recent files I have interacted with" and expand that out to include emails and Teams/Slacks and everything. I should be able to see everything going on with my machine, search through it and not care if its stored inside of Slack or iCloud or whatever. Single pane of glass.
Nope. This would be great if it worked.
This idea of getting rid of the file system is very old, tired and has failed. And failed. And failed.
…and you know apps hate? Letting you out of their walled gardens.
> Microsoft tried it, people didn't like it,
Yup.
> but I think the concept makes sense.
Nope.
You’re going to have to do better than trying this again.
Something something local LLM? Mm.
It’s a Hard Problem. The kind of problem that random engineers look at and go “doesn’t seem that hard, I could do that in a weekend”.
…
> In the interest of full disclosure I think this is gonna take many weekends of work to even get a functional demo running. So I'll do my best, but be patient.
Okay, to be fair, the author did acknowledge that it’s a lot of work and it’s hard; and I look forward to seeing the result, because experiments in this space are interesting, the idea of a visual tmux maybe has some legs…
…but I think this project is too ambitious to succeed.
Not being the default isn't what stops these concept desktops from taking off; it’s that people don’t like them.
No file system, you just get “tasks” and an LLM to pray to and hope you get your data from?
:/ I don’t think it’ll fly.
However...
> Different people use windows totally differently.
The older I get, the more impatient I am with this. In the industry, we normalized that high paid software developers (who are way better programmers, or infra people than I am) waste hundreds of engineering hours with their absolutely broken window management, and command-tab hell. Whenever I have to witness a screenshare of a colleague, my time is also wasted.
I wish this would be an interview gating: show us how you manage yourself in this big monorepo, switching tasks, windows, tabs, desktops, SSHs etc. Do not normalize noob time wasting.
Different people also use pianos differently. Yet, we don't appreciate a noob pushing random keys around it. It would be unpleasant to the ear, just how unpleasant (painful) it is to witness macOSs/gnomes bubblegum horror of sloppily animated chaos.
Back to my point: windows (as in viewports) are with us for many decades. I don't care if you tile, stack, infinite scroll them. Just be productive. Invest upfront in learning, be fast, and be able to explain what I you try to show me on screen.
There will be no one size fits for all, and that part I understand. But please have more dexterity with your desktop abilities than my grandma.
Everyone else around me blazes at the simple act of typing. And far fewer but some have powerful vim setups where they can do inarguably useful things fast.
You would be agonized to watch me type code.
But for 30+ years it never mattered. I spend 10x more time thinking than typing, or jumping around refactoring 300 things all over the place every 5 minutes, and propduce results that work, are efficient, and fail far more gracefully than everyone else.
(I'm not claiming to trade iteration for get-it-right-the-first-time, I obviously iterate and I'd even say the correctness of the final result is mostly the result of iteration).
Maybe it doesn't conflict with your point because even so I wouldn't exactly say I'm no more functional than your grandma, so maybe typing and vim/ide-ricing are just a couple of exceptions that I can afford to get wrong as long as everything else is good.
Though I don't know what else there even is to be "fast" at. I don't think I really even understand how one can be good or bad at mere window management. ssh-ing? What is there to that? knowing how to manage keys?
However, all in all, I like this. Even if it means I'd currently fall on the wrong side of this idea, I think I agree with this idea to have an expectation of basic competency with the tools in any field one would presume to get paid for. Maybe even now I should just suck it up and learn to type and develop a powerful vim setup.
Things like “uh, where’s that file again?”, “the window disappeared”, etc shouldn’t happen during screen sharing, pairing, and demos.
In other words: be a good presenter.
OTOH presenting is a different skill. Maybe I should have elaborated that as a field expert of a (not-so-)niche thing, I often get contacted by random colleagues who will ask me to "let them quickly share their screen to show what the problem is". Their demonstrated horrific inability to "do computers" is surprising and upsetting.
Therefore I thought about this a lot in the past. Maybe the windows concept is wrong? Should there be more experiments like OP proposing? And slowly I start to believe, that probably the windows concept is okay, since you and me and thousands of others are capable, and it's just a skill issue.
But really that just explains and excuses my mom, who does not work in any proximity to any flavor of IT.
(1) mac too just slightly less so, and I'm no fan just to be clear, I just think mac started out the worst in this way, then didn't get much worse over time while windows & gnome both got insanely worse
Every time I have to do something on someone's bog standard machine, I just think "how do you people live like this?"
Not that many years ago a flat unadorned description of win11 today would be taken as completely unbelievable hyperbole movie gag that could never get that crazy for real obviously. Funny because of recognizable elements of truth but too stupid to be realistic.
The frog has simply been boiled exactly slow enough I guess.
(I had a bunch of descriptions of actual absurd and perverse things to show examples but the comment was a wall of text!)
I'd rather observed correlation of experts who can navigate their GUIs / TUIs, and being good software engineers.
Yeah because Apple has broken that idea over and over and over. The anti-unix unix.
None use the file system in anything like the way their unix underpinning would have files be understood or organised for users. Hard to even know where your files are without asking the app to deal with them one by one. Predated phones and even Spotlight doesn’t do a good job of showing/knowing where your files are.
Huh? Windows XP was the first NT-based release for home users. It was a milestone in stability.
It was also far more secure, but it was still not nearly secure enough.
> ”Upon its release, Windows XP received critical acclaim, noting increased performance and stability (especially compared to Windows Me)…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP
> It was also far more secure, but it was still not nearly secure enough.
That's one way to say "plagued by a decade of botnets."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP
Now google XP blue screen of death. Still alive and well then.
If the bar is Microsoft's most loathed release, then I guess you could call it stable and secure.
Weird that contemporary articles praised its stability then.
> That's one way to say "plagued by a decade of botnets."
No, it’s a way of saying that it introduced real identity-based security isolation to the OS. Prior to this every user had full access to the entire system incisions everyone else’s data who shared the system.
Unfortunately Windows XP was not hardened to the reality of the internet. (Nor were any of its predecessors.)
What most people remember of XP now is what it became after a couple of years of fixes and improvements, and the contrast with Vista.
Yes, it became more stable with the service packs, but it was a significantly more stable OS out of the gates than anything consumer users had been getting.
Rampant malware was a separate (and very significant) issue.
That much is true.
> It was mostly a wash vs Windows 2000.
No, not really. They did some empirical testing at the university I went to and the conclusion was that they kept the Windows boxes on 2k almost until Vista.
It started with the Ipod and the weird mp3 system, to the Ipad not shipping with a real file manager and is all so very obviously deliberate.
Is the core the database(the filesystem) and the apps roam around in it, or is the core the apps each with their own database.
I grew up with noun focused operating systems, which is probably why I prefer them. Here are your things and you can use various actions on them(some valid some not). And as such find the verb focused ones unpleasant to use. Here are your actions each includes it's things. But where are my things? It does not matter, each action knows where it's correct things are. But I want my things, I know they are in there somewhere. (fights the phone for a while)
The first option is evidently better for the user. The filesystem is a neutral entity with a well-defined interface, whereas each app is on its own journey. For a period of time that journey may align with the user's workflow, and both are happy. But there inevitably comes a time where the app and the user diverge, and for the user, it is imperative that they be able to switch to another app without losing access to their data.
To a user, the data matters most, and the filesystem, because of its neutrality, is the best model for access.
Reading your comment earlier, while trying to make dinner now, made me realize that the reason I hate the layout of my house might be the same reason I never got into Vim...
To get to the kitchen, I have to walk through the dining room, where all the plates, bowls, glasses are. But I can’t grab what I need yet, because I haven’t seen the food. I first need to get to the kitchen, look at what’s there, and decide what I’m going to make... Only then do I know which tools I need.
My house verb first, but my brain works noun first.
But Vim can also operate noun-first: just press `v` to go into visual mode. Then you drag out a selection, and press the command. No need to switch editors and relearn all the places where they differ. (If you're already used to Vim, of course, which might not be the case for you).
Which is why I've never tried Helix or Kakoune myself. Because the big selling point, noun-first operation, is already in Vim, just one keystroke away. Multiple cursors are a neat idea, and when I have to use VS Code I find them quite useful for doing things that I would have done with Vim macros. But I've already learned Vim macros, and there are few cases (though not none) where multiple cursors would have made something easier than the macro-based approach.
Anyway, point is, for anyone else who might stumble across this comment somehow, that Vim allows noun-first operation too: just go into `v`isual selection mode, select text with motion commands, and then press the operation command key.
Years ago I bumped into Sublime Text, which introduced me to multi cursors. I ended up becoming quite good at using regex for search, then pressing Alt+Enter to select all the matches. That satisfied my multi-selection needs, and although I tried getting into Vim later, I felt that the effort was too much and my setup already made me quite fast at editing code in multiple places.
I use Bash via Git4Windows as much as possible, but even there... `cd ~/git; cd ../Downloads; cd ../git` doesn't work because `..` from `~/Downloads/` is `~/One Drive/`.
It's... non-Euclidiean.
It reaffirms the distance I’ve put between myself and that tinker toy OS over the last decade, every day.
You should not throw your laptop because of the specifics of how the onedrive integration works. You should throw it because the onedrive integration is invasive and obnoxious.
I think people put way too much emphasis on things like this with conclusions that they are faster and therefore its better. There is Pareto's law and a point of no return on invested time with this type of endeavor. I would feel better if people started off with "I did this because I can and I like doing things like this" vs. some argument that its better in some way.