one can only hope, this broken version of democrazy has really over extended themselves into rationalizing some of the worst behavior in modern times... The collusion between their leadership and American lobbyists has been a terrible look for America, and fortunately we live in a world where access to information has outpaced their ability to control the narrative. Boomers really let the future down man.
I'm curious, do you actually think Civil War and Total Collapse in Israel could realistically lead to a good outcome for anyone in the region, including Palestinians? Is there even a remotely plausible scenario resembling a good outcome that could result from a Civil War and Total Collapse?
> Not only would it be good for the Middle East, it would be good for the entire planet.
How would Civil War and Total Collapse of a nuclear armed state be good for the entire planet? Has Civil War with a Total Collapse of the state in general led to good outcomes anywhere?
> Imagine a US without Zionist influence?
What actual difference do you think that would make?
Nuclear armed Israel? They literally stole enriched uranium from the US to make that happen. Israel is nothing but a non-stop series of crimes against humanity.
Right, I'm curious how would Civil War and Total Collapse of a nuclear armed state like Israel be good for the entire planet as you've suggested?
> They literally stole enriched uranium from the US to make that happen.
I think there's probably more evidence that the Israeli nuclear weapons program initially was developed mostly in cooperation with France. After France stopped supplying fuel in the wake of the 1967 war apparently Israel did steal yellowcake from a Belgian mining company.[0]
Yes, Israel has spied on and stolen nuclear material from many countries, answering your own question as to why the world will be better off without them.
> Yes, Israel has spied on and stolen nuclear material from many countries
I'm pretty sure most countries spy on many countries.
> answering your own question as to why the world will be better off without them.
That wasn't my question, the question was how would Civil War and Total Collapse of a nuclear armed state like Israel be good for the entire planet as you've suggested?
Most pro-pallies are bot like. They don't care about 2nd order or unintended consequences, they may not be even aware of the concepts. It's just "western civ = bad, non western civ = good"
I'm not avoiding anything. The only country that has ever used nuclear bombs on a population is the US. Both the Soviet Union and South Africa had nuclear weapons and were successfully dissolved.
You're avoiding answering how it's supposedly a good thing for the world for there to be a civil war and total collapse in Israel as you've claimed.
> The only country that has ever used nuclear bombs on a population is the US.
This is relevant how?
> Both the Soviet Union and South Africa had nuclear weapons and were successfully dissolved.
South Africa still exists as a state last I checked. The Soviet Union was an organized dissolution and Russia retained the Soviet nuclear arsenal while invading other states unprovoked. You've asserted that "Not only would it be good for the Middle East, it would be good for the entire planet." in regards to Civil War and Total Collapse in Israel, do you actually believe this to be the case? I suspect you actually don't because when asked you are unable to say how that would be a good thing for the world.
It's always a good thing when a terrorist, genocidal country goes away. Israel is worse than Nazi Germany as it's lasted longer and has much deeper influence on the rest of the world. We'll all be better off when it's gone. No more pedophile blackmail, no more political bribes, no more stealing my tax dollars, no more manipulating my media, no more removing my rights and most importantly no more genocide of Palestinians!
> It's always a good thing when a terrorist, genocidal country goes away. Israel is worse than Nazi Germany as it's lasted longer and has much deeper influence on the rest of the world. We'll all be better off when it's gone.
Your claim was "Not only would it be good for the Middle East, it would be good for the entire planet." in regards to Civil War and Total Collapse in Israel, which is very different that claiming it would be a good thing if Israel simply magically "goes away". Civil War and Total Collapse would have a lot of additional negative implications inherently attached.
> No more pedophile blackmail, no more political bribes, no more stealing my tax dollars, no more manipulating my media, no more removing my rights and most importantly no more genocide of Palestinians!
I don't see how Civil War and Total Collapse would be good for the Palestinians or the region in general even if what you were claiming were true.
Thanks for pointing that out. There are several accounts here that are primarily focused on posting anti-Israel content, such as the original poster of this story.
> on posts critical of Israel
This post is not really “critical” of Israel. It’s low quality fake news slop that’s only getting upvoted because the fantasy of it is getting some people excited.
> The Red Cell, which is the unit responsible for providing “alternative analysis” within the agency, produced the assessment through a combination of open source information and U.S. intelligence.
So is this article describing a war game sort of thing where units create staged scenarios for gaming out future crisis responses?[0]
Have you looked at the history of OP or do you only complain when the accounts are pro-Israel?
Besides, this policy systemically discriminates against minorities and minority opinions.
Jews are a minority and there are a large number of accounts here that are regularly posting extreme anti-Israel content, that is often exaggerated, misleading, or downright fabricated (such as this post).
If Jewish accounts would try to counter and give their side of the story every time that happens, their accounts would overwhelmingly be about one topic.
This combined with the ability of a majority to downvote a comment to invisibility ensures you get an echo chamber in here that is irrationally bigoted and misinformed.
1) Stop conflating criticism of the state of Israel to antisemitism. There are many orthodox Jews that oppose zionism and the state of Israel.
One could argue that supporting the state of Israel as it currently stands and behaves is antisemitic, judging by the fact that its actions create huge negative sentiment about it.
2) Stop creating new throwaway accounts in a transparent attempt to astroturf
If you read it again you will see that I did not say that ultra orthodox jews are nazis, but a subset of those (the settlers) behave like nazis. Perpetuating the circle of violence.
Hope you had fun going through 5 months of my comments to find something you can complain about.
> If you read it again you will see that I did not say that ultra orthodox jews are nazis, but a subset of those (the settlers) behave like nazis. Perpetuating the circle of violence.
You appear to be somewhat implying that the settlers which are engaging in violence are mostly Ultra-Orthodox(Haredi) Jews. Which is weird since only about 30% of settlers are Ultra-Orthodox and they tend to mostly reside in settlements along the Green Line(which are generally the least problematic type of settlement) for mostly economic reasons. The Ultra-Orthodox also generally try and avoid military service and don't typically engage in violent clashes with Palestinians. I don't know why you seem to be blaming a group that is largely trying to avoid IDF service for "the circle of violence", they tend to clash mostly with Israeli police if anything when protesting against mandatory conscription.[0]
The group you're probably thinking of that causes a lot of the problems by deliberately picking fights(i.e those in outpost settlements that are typically illegal even under Israeli law) when you think of settlers are more National-Religious(Dati Leumi).
First you have to define Zionism if you want any to make your argument. Criticism is one thing. Wanting to wipe out the one Jewish nation with the majority of the worlds Jews lives could very well be antismtic.
Bullshit on your other pint.One could not in good faith argue that Jews being judged by the actions of one country is legitimate no matter what, and can't be a basis to try and twist antisemitism. But you know that.
The vast majority of Jews do support Israel having a right to exist.
> I’m told that’s antisemitism.
You seem to be conflating Jews supporting Israel having a right to exist with Jews supporting some particular actions taken by some Israeli's or Israeli government policies. One can support Israel having a right to exist while still being against specific government policies or specific actions taken by Israeli's.
> Israel can only exist via ethnic cleansing, apartheid and genocide.
Ethnic cleansing did happen, but it wasn't just in one direction. Apartheid is race based discrimination, Israel mostly just has citizenship based discrimination these days(like most countries). War is also not the same thing as genocide.
> Supporting its "right to exist" is to support all of those things.
Do you think the US has a "right to exist"? You can make an equally if not more plausible claim that the US could only exist via ethnic cleansing, apartheid and genocide due to what happened to the Native Americans.
He’s been doing it non-stop ever since. The only reason dang even did that is because he banned an anti-genocide poster and another commenter pointed out the double standard on this site.
> The CIA’s “red teams” are tasked with developing analysis and ideas that challenge prevailing assumptions and expose groupthink or blind spots that can take hold within the intelligence apparatus.
So this is not some kind of consensus view within the CIA, it's a think group trying to come up with none consensus scenarios. We don't get to see the report itself of course so we don't know how likely the writers think this scenario is. Writing something may happen is great - if it happens you're a genius. If it doesn't happen - you wrote "may".
I'm not saying this definitely won't happen , but nothing makes me think this is likely anytime soon and I don't think the CIA itself thinks it is likely any time soon.
45 comments
[ 0.35 ms ] story [ 20.4 ms ] threadI'm curious, do you actually think Civil War and Total Collapse in Israel could realistically lead to a good outcome for anyone in the region, including Palestinians? Is there even a remotely plausible scenario resembling a good outcome that could result from a Civil War and Total Collapse?
How would Civil War and Total Collapse of a nuclear armed state be good for the entire planet? Has Civil War with a Total Collapse of the state in general led to good outcomes anywhere?
> Imagine a US without Zionist influence?
What actual difference do you think that would make?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_affair
Right, I'm curious how would Civil War and Total Collapse of a nuclear armed state like Israel be good for the entire planet as you've suggested?
> They literally stole enriched uranium from the US to make that happen.
I think there's probably more evidence that the Israeli nuclear weapons program initially was developed mostly in cooperation with France. After France stopped supplying fuel in the wake of the 1967 war apparently Israel did steal yellowcake from a Belgian mining company.[0]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Plumbat
I'm pretty sure most countries spy on many countries.
> answering your own question as to why the world will be better off without them.
That wasn't my question, the question was how would Civil War and Total Collapse of a nuclear armed state like Israel be good for the entire planet as you've suggested?
You're avoiding answering how it's supposedly a good thing for the world for there to be a civil war and total collapse in Israel as you've claimed.
> The only country that has ever used nuclear bombs on a population is the US.
This is relevant how?
> Both the Soviet Union and South Africa had nuclear weapons and were successfully dissolved.
South Africa still exists as a state last I checked. The Soviet Union was an organized dissolution and Russia retained the Soviet nuclear arsenal while invading other states unprovoked. You've asserted that "Not only would it be good for the Middle East, it would be good for the entire planet." in regards to Civil War and Total Collapse in Israel, do you actually believe this to be the case? I suspect you actually don't because when asked you are unable to say how that would be a good thing for the world.
Your claim was "Not only would it be good for the Middle East, it would be good for the entire planet." in regards to Civil War and Total Collapse in Israel, which is very different that claiming it would be a good thing if Israel simply magically "goes away". Civil War and Total Collapse would have a lot of additional negative implications inherently attached.
> No more pedophile blackmail, no more political bribes, no more stealing my tax dollars, no more manipulating my media, no more removing my rights and most importantly no more genocide of Palestinians!
I don't see how Civil War and Total Collapse would be good for the Palestinians or the region in general even if what you were claiming were true.
As a new account, please review the submission and comment guidelines
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
> on posts critical of Israel
This post is not really “critical” of Israel. It’s low quality fake news slop that’s only getting upvoted because the fantasy of it is getting some people excited.
The world sees, that's why we are turning away. My Jewish friends see and agree, several are traveling to vote in Oct.
What Israel has been doing is unacceptable to most humans, reflecting on this is helpful.
So is this article describing a war game sort of thing where units create staged scenarios for gaming out future crisis responses?[0]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Cell
Besides, this policy systemically discriminates against minorities and minority opinions.
Jews are a minority and there are a large number of accounts here that are regularly posting extreme anti-Israel content, that is often exaggerated, misleading, or downright fabricated (such as this post).
If Jewish accounts would try to counter and give their side of the story every time that happens, their accounts would overwhelmingly be about one topic.
This combined with the ability of a majority to downvote a comment to invisibility ensures you get an echo chamber in here that is irrationally bigoted and misinformed.
One could argue that supporting the state of Israel as it currently stands and behaves is antisemitic, judging by the fact that its actions create huge negative sentiment about it.
2) Stop creating new throwaway accounts in a transparent attempt to astroturf
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47737176
I’m under no illusion that I can have a rational discussion with you on the topic. My point was to @dang and anyone else reading this.
If you read it again you will see that I did not say that ultra orthodox jews are nazis, but a subset of those (the settlers) behave like nazis. Perpetuating the circle of violence.
Hope you had fun going through 5 months of my comments to find something you can complain about.
You appear to be somewhat implying that the settlers which are engaging in violence are mostly Ultra-Orthodox(Haredi) Jews. Which is weird since only about 30% of settlers are Ultra-Orthodox and they tend to mostly reside in settlements along the Green Line(which are generally the least problematic type of settlement) for mostly economic reasons. The Ultra-Orthodox also generally try and avoid military service and don't typically engage in violent clashes with Palestinians. I don't know why you seem to be blaming a group that is largely trying to avoid IDF service for "the circle of violence", they tend to clash mostly with Israeli police if anything when protesting against mandatory conscription.[0]
The group you're probably thinking of that causes a lot of the problems by deliberately picking fights(i.e those in outpost settlements that are typically illegal even under Israeli law) when you think of settlers are more National-Religious(Dati Leumi).
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_conscription_in_Israel
Bullshit on your other pint.One could not in good faith argue that Jews being judged by the actions of one country is legitimate no matter what, and can't be a basis to try and twist antisemitism. But you know that.
The vast majority of Jews do support Israel having a right to exist.
> I’m told that’s antisemitism.
You seem to be conflating Jews supporting Israel having a right to exist with Jews supporting some particular actions taken by some Israeli's or Israeli government policies. One can support Israel having a right to exist while still being against specific government policies or specific actions taken by Israeli's.
Ethnic cleansing did happen, but it wasn't just in one direction. Apartheid is race based discrimination, Israel mostly just has citizenship based discrimination these days(like most countries). War is also not the same thing as genocide.
> Supporting its "right to exist" is to support all of those things.
Do you think the US has a "right to exist"? You can make an equally if not more plausible claim that the US could only exist via ethnic cleansing, apartheid and genocide due to what happened to the Native Americans.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49938968
He’s been doing it non-stop ever since. The only reason dang even did that is because he banned an anti-genocide poster and another commenter pointed out the double standard on this site.
That's just not true.
The last thread I posted in[0] wasn't Israel related.
> Is this really the place for propaganda ?
How is a question about the source of this report propaganda?
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49940809
"Hey, you've already fucked up. Ain't no sense stopping now." - Anthony Kiedis
so could the US. or China. or the Congo.
I could win the lottery.
So this is not some kind of consensus view within the CIA, it's a think group trying to come up with none consensus scenarios. We don't get to see the report itself of course so we don't know how likely the writers think this scenario is. Writing something may happen is great - if it happens you're a genius. If it doesn't happen - you wrote "may".
I'm not saying this definitely won't happen , but nothing makes me think this is likely anytime soon and I don't think the CIA itself thinks it is likely any time soon.