Nope. The agent doesn't actually read, and never will. That is, it may pull it into context randomly, and then purge it from context randomly. But any tool/harness/wrapper that claims that agents actually do something is selling you a bridge.
---
Also, the entire page somehow manages present a condensed example of the worst marketing + the worst LLM-adjacent speech in a few short paragraphs.
Of course it depends on the type of software you’re writing and just how strict it needs to be, but in general, I find that you need the “spec-driven development” paradigm less now than you did maybe 6 months ago. Older specs really begin to become noise and context pollutants, plus the model is just going to explore the codebase to get a current state of truth regardless.
Which is fine if product is good. But they have actually good IDE, instead they decided to make some kind of VS code wrapper and hope people pay it over other editors doing same thing for free ?
I feel somewhat bad for JetBrains. Their entire world was flipped upside down. My first intro to a coding harness was through their IDE. Not even a month later and I stopped using their platform altogether. After the year is up I won’t be renewing any of my company’s subscriptions.
They have to try to push this stuff out to survive but none of it is innovative. Not sure why anyone would pay for this when it can be one-shot with a single good prompt. Sure, it looks fancy but I never cared about that.
Why feel bad about it though? If they're unable to innovate and they're stuck in their old ways, and they cannot find/advertise the benefits of either paths by using their products, why would it need to still be around? Isn't this the reason capitalism exist in the first place, the good get rewarded and the bad eventually fold?
I don't necessarily feel bad about it, but I do feel sad about it.
I would not want all my bread to have come from wheat being milled on an old watermill, but I love visiting those as museums, and I think it would be bad if they were torn down.
I probably feel about the same for JetBrains. Plus, I have fond memories of using them.
I can't imagine JetBrains keep existing in the following years. Every programmer I talked to in the past year (myself included) said their job was mostly reviewing generated code. I can imagine why people still use IDE to review code, but I can't name a reason to use something as heavy as JetBrains products just to review things written by others, AI or not.
I have been a paying user for about a decade. Ironically, when I recommended their products to vim/emacs users, they usually were like "thanks, but I know vim/emacs will always exist", and now I realize they really had a point.
You always review large code diffs by comparing them side-by-side? You never need to drop into an IDE to follow the path a branch takes? How do you review large diffs without an IDE, do you remember what every function does in a million-loc codebase?
But vscode and vim do this just as well (in my experience). JetBrains products' advantages over the most lightweight solutions for me are:
- Faster intellisense at least for C# and Java
- Faster syntax errors and other linting-warnings
- Debugger and stack state viewer
I still use Rider, but I just don't think faster intellisense/linting matters to me nowadays. The debugger still helps, but to be honest LLMs are better at debugging than me if you let them dump whatever information they need.
Plus, even with LLMs' help, making and managing a plugin for Rider is a much heavier process than the counterparts for vim/vscode.
For a while I agreed with you, but then I realized I want my agent to have access to the same find references, index, and rename tools, and the rest of the refactor tools that JetBrains have always provided me. And I wanted to be able to use those, even if it means I'll have to pay for Jetbrains.
Just like it was inefficient for me to manually rename variables and classes, it's token inefficient for my agent to do that.
Yeah! Refactoring, is already a solved problem, and deterministic with IDE (unless you have an untyped Python codebase), now we are reinventing the wheel, in more broken ways?
Want to add an additional parameter without creating a thousands of error? Change signature, Extract a part of code to another function? Extract Method.
People are taking these small, but extremely useful conveniences, without waiting, without paying for tokens, for granted.
yeah. I don't think current MCPs / Claude Code plugins that are available for JetBrains IDEs do that, or do they already give access to these things ? I run Claude through the IDE plugin but all I really see being used is access to current selected file / text. If it had access to refactor tools , code warnings etc, it would've been excellent
IntelliJ is excellent for doing the code review. The git and diff is top notch.
Then there is the DataGrip stuff, I use it all the time.
And the HTTP client (.http files!) is also good. It has built in scripting.
Notice here that none of these activities is writing code.
This enhances the understanding of what I am building with the agents. I’m sure the lazy dev will just skip this and will never see any of this, just let Claude completely take over.
Oh look another account created only 12 minutes old doom posting. Getting tired of the unhinged and provocative commentary written by people or bots with ulterior motives.
You can pay a corporate that steals other's hard work without any consequences, $20/m at least. But can't pay another one that is actually putting up a respectable product for so many years, and you at least own it, even if you decided to stop paying?
I have been a paid user for 12+ years. Things got difficult more me this year, but I still renewed, because it's that important a tool for me. And, probably, this is just the hill I die on, owning something, that can't be whisked away at someone else's whim.
Obviously, they are still a corporate, but, until now they've respected me as a consumer unlike many other corporations. I value that.
They have their issues. But, which application does not?!
Their Git merge UI, is just top-notch. And keeps on improving
I might use another coding agent, once JetBrain's credit runs out, but I review, and make all minor changes through the IDE
Project management is just a bliss.
Working with multi-language project? No IDE can manage this how good JetBrains does.
VIM binding is just so good, I don't miss VIM editor.
And the most important point is, they do not push something I do not want continuously. Don't want AI, turn it off, and it's not even there. My data is not being used to train some big LLM, or I am not counted as a product, is really important too.
Yeah, I hope they survive this messy shit, with the core that I have respect for. I hope they don't ruin that.
It's not nostalgia/pity. It's something I have use for.
And, also, it's kind of having a principle, my own. I have issues with corruption manifested by all of these AI corporations. It's an itch that I can't scratch, so I am trying my best to stay away from them.
It's not JetBrains is good and all. But, they're not worse, yet.
I would like to use a harness that integerates with an IDE very easily. This will be helpful for me when coding in a language I largely don't know. I can kinda check things quickly in front of me. I know it just needs an editor and maybe a language server setup – but the cost of visual context switching is still costly heavy for us humans. Often things out of sight are also out of mind.
I was aiming for VS Code but since I have used Intellij and android studio a lot maybe I'll give it a try.
As usual when there's a harness release by a billion-dollar company, I like to ride its coat-tails with a little plug for mine (https://github.com/juggler-ai/juggler) since my marketing budget is $0. Juggler usually gets a warm response from HN people because it's a bit more hands-on than most of them.
I'd be interested to hear whether the 'spec' stuff works or not. I've been pondering adding a plugin for juggler based on the fact that we're rubbish at writing specs: so instead, when you prompt it, it'd get the model to list the assumptions that it's making about the task. Then the user can spot and correct any incorrect assumptions, rather than expecting the user to provide correct specs. (Haven't actually tried this yet, just speculating)
A year ago, it was not sure if the core companies around programming would move to more agent enabled workflow. Companies like JetBrains.
I love their products. But it's clear now that programming is now spec management and how do we control agents. I don't need JetBrains for that.
And spec management will become less technical as models get better. What does JetBrains think is the long term goal for this product? I don't think it'll make any sense in a few months.
As somebody who likes and uses JetBrains IDEs, I find this fragmentation of their AI strategy (if they have one) frustrating. They now have both Air and ThinkRail in a feature-incomplete state, while the existing AI Assistant – for me far more useful than either Air or ThinkRail – seems to be getting neglected. There are numerous harnesses already, with or without GUIs and editing capabilites; good integration with existing IDE functionality is where there are very limited offerings and where JetBrains could differentiate itself.
As a point of comparison, Zed does the agentic side panel overall better (though still not perfectly), but Zed is still by its nature more limited than e.g. PyCharm or CLion or RustRover or Rider.
Yes, Junie, Air all got mixed up too much, and it was a bad decision to override some important keyboard shortcuts with Air too.
But, they still have a solid IDE, they just need to figure out what they can do without losing that edge.
I am all for experiments, that's where all the innovations comes from. But don't push VSCode bullshit on me. If I wanted to use that shit, I would use NVIM/Vim. But not VSCode.
Which one exactly? I used to love Webstorm and Rider, but there were so many workflow-breaking bugs in each new release of Webstorm that I switched to VS Code. I still use Rider, but I've stopped my All Products subscription, because new releases usually decreased the amount of well-working features (and new features often didn't work at all).
Around 2022 I'd have agreed 100%, but these days not so much.
I use only one, IntelliJ IDEA, which has all integrated, except Rider I believe.
It has full Rust, Java, Python, Web stack, things that I work with.
There were few issues here and there occasionally, but last few months I have not faced any issues, and it's been really robust. It gets slow with LLM providers running in the background on my 7 year old laptop though. But on desktop it flies.
Just to add another note, Initially I was a bit skeptic about their new UI. But, they have improved it a lot, and it's really good. Even though I hide most of the UI elements in favor of `double shift`
I don't mind the new look, I also enjoyed the previous UI refresh. But I don't think UI changes are a good use of JetBrain's resources while the core functionality is frequently broken.
One example: In August 2024, new Vue projects stopped working correctly with Webstorm - not terrible on it's own, stuff can happen. The issue was reported on August 19th[0]. Someone posted a workaround, and on August 29th, they announced that a future version will fix the issue.
That future version was released on October 23rd[1]. In the intervening two months there was no indication in Webstorm that the LSP crashing was a known issue with a workaround. Users just had to search for the issue, stumble upon the thread, and manually update the component. They couldn't release this tiny version bump for two months, or at least add a link to the issue thread.
This would be fine if Webstorm were free, but it's pretty freaking expensive, and I didn't get any money back for the product being defective for 1/6th of the year.
Yeah, seems that way - at least the editor space has a lot more competition than GPUs, so we don't have to put up with it.
In the end, I'd love to see Jetbrains pull themselves together and return to their former glory. But I don't know if I'll ever give them another chance since their pricing structure heavily punishes unsubscribing. Since the bugs pushed me over that ledge, it'd seem that they should offer lower prices, not higher ones!
Many companies currently struggle to come up with a lasting strategy.
They need to figure out what make sense here in terms of a product. I rather have a somewhat fragmented ecosystem right now than no relevant product from JetBrains whatsoever.
I was at a large tech conference this week in Amsterdam, it was < 1km from the JetBrains office. They set up the booth 3 hours too late and there was no one actually there when I walked by (twice). I think they have given up?
AS Jetbrains user, tf is this shit, I just want AI integrated better in workflow I already use. If I wanted to use VSCode wrapper I wouldn't pay them for it...
Their plan is so misguided. First they wanted to pay us for separate tool and THEIR AI, which is worse than what people already pay for, few months back they finally figured out nobody wants that and just integrated it into mainline editor and now this
JetBrains should focus on the artisanal engineers and the 'vibing' engineers who need to code by hand from time to time. They have a big moat already. I imagine they try to keep the user base from fleeing their platform, but I think they have already covered prompt integration. There is imho no value in yet another LLM wrapper that seems to be totally unrelated to the existing offering, at least no monetary value.
I would urge JetBrains to put all their LLM power and human brains at work to slash their IDEs backlog and deliver the GOAT of all IDEs. Building IDEs is their strength and there will always be a market for that category.
They're fighting an uphill battle and it's a race against time. I think they've already lost to Claude Code. I can do everything they offer with Claude. Where is their moat?
There is more than ever unresolved usability holes in programmer's workflow. Coordinating work across agents and other team members, making specs and change them together with implementation, code review, support workflow of different level of "vibiness", give agents more IDE features to play with, and much more. JetBrains has both capacity and expertise to deliver a product in this space.
I really don't understand how this is so hard for JetBrains.
Build a polyglot IDE that blends the agentic workflow (terminal chat sessions) with the power of an IDE. Index specs and code so that I can jump from specs to implementation and vice versa. Keep indexing all problems found in the project, with a simple "Ask agent to fix" dialog. Expose debuggers with Markdown output to agents via skills so that they stop trying to debug via logging. Keep the nice UI for build/debug/run configurations, which are still hugely important for reviewing PRs and acceptance testing what the agents are giving you. Upsell by charging to host JetBrains-cloud-isolated-agent-workspaces, like what it looks like Herdr is going to do, so that you're not limited by what you can develop solely on your machine, and development continues after you close the lid, and you can review the output with your teammates in multiplayer, like where Zed is going.
Is it really that hard?? It seems so obvious to me.
Oh, I would like to disagree. Specs are transitional and have low value in the long term. The project/product documentation which one should make based on the specs and the actual implementation and found gotcha's - are the truth.
I am a paying user of IntelliJ IDEA Ultimate, but lately I've been using mostly Claude Code Desktop App.
This is a cool product. Clearly, they made the agent chat pane the primary feature, while things like the Project Files and the editor itself is secondary (you are not even allowed to change files manually!).
The chat is very well done (I think it's just Pi?). People are saying how they use the IDE mostly for reviewing code, and ThinkRail makes that a primary feature as well: every change the agent makes gives you a "Review Turn" button that lets you look at exactly what was done. And the diff viewer is very good (not the same as IntelliJ, seems more like the VS Code viewer?).
It stores everything the agent does as a "Turn" so you can review every change at any time, like a git history. It also has the git log similar to IntelliJ, so you can still click on each commit in the history as well. In fact, the two things seem very similar, since each "Turn" normally results on a commit as well. It's stil unclear to me how "Turn"s are useful beyond the commit history.
It also has a fully functional terminal so you can try out things easily without leaving the tool.
JetBrains seems to have figured out how people are using their tools nowadays, and decided to go all in with this "Innovation Lab" tool.
I would still expect to be allowed to edit code/text myself in it, and maybe navigate around like in IntelliJ, but I guess I'm in the minority :P and most people just need something like this?! It's definitely much lighter than IntelliJ (it shows way down in my process list by memory, with around 140MB after quite a bit of usage, and it's highly responsive), so perhaps that's the main advantage, and bringing code navigation/editing/highlighting for all languages (it highlights the most common ones, but not LISP for example) would just result in a heavy tool again.
Its way of working with git worktrees exclusively is something I was already doing in the Claude Code App, so I think they got this right. However, CC App can also use a SSH remote connection (like TRAMP in emacs) to a devcontainer, and I've been using that a lot, so would be nice to have that option as well.
In conclusion: I like it and I think they may be going the right way with how things are going: the "IDE" becomes primarily a means to interact with agents. But at least for me, it's a bit too early to leave the full IDE completely, and I guess they could've made this just a "mode" inside IntelliJ without losing anything except for being very lightweight, and perhaps that's what they're going to do eventually?
66 comments
[ 2.3 ms ] story [ 27.5 ms ] threadNope. The agent doesn't actually read, and never will. That is, it may pull it into context randomly, and then purge it from context randomly. But any tool/harness/wrapper that claims that agents actually do something is selling you a bridge.
---
Also, the entire page somehow manages present a condensed example of the worst marketing + the worst LLM-adjacent speech in a few short paragraphs.
They have to try to push this stuff out to survive but none of it is innovative. Not sure why anyone would pay for this when it can be one-shot with a single good prompt. Sure, it looks fancy but I never cared about that.
I would not want all my bread to have come from wheat being milled on an old watermill, but I love visiting those as museums, and I think it would be bad if they were torn down.
I probably feel about the same for JetBrains. Plus, I have fond memories of using them.
I have been a paying user for about a decade. Ironically, when I recommended their products to vim/emacs users, they usually were like "thanks, but I know vim/emacs will always exist", and now I realize they really had a point.
But vscode and vim do this just as well (in my experience). JetBrains products' advantages over the most lightweight solutions for me are:
- Faster intellisense at least for C# and Java
- Faster syntax errors and other linting-warnings
- Debugger and stack state viewer
I still use Rider, but I just don't think faster intellisense/linting matters to me nowadays. The debugger still helps, but to be honest LLMs are better at debugging than me if you let them dump whatever information they need.
Plus, even with LLMs' help, making and managing a plugin for Rider is a much heavier process than the counterparts for vim/vscode.
Just like it was inefficient for me to manually rename variables and classes, it's token inefficient for my agent to do that.
Want to add an additional parameter without creating a thousands of error? Change signature, Extract a part of code to another function? Extract Method.
People are taking these small, but extremely useful conveniences, without waiting, without paying for tokens, for granted.
Then there is the DataGrip stuff, I use it all the time.
And the HTTP client (.http files!) is also good. It has built in scripting.
Notice here that none of these activities is writing code.
This enhances the understanding of what I am building with the agents. I’m sure the lazy dev will just skip this and will never see any of this, just let Claude completely take over.
I’ve used JetBrains products for at least 15 years and this is my genuine opinion. At least what I commented actually contributed to the topic?
I have been a paid user for 12+ years. Things got difficult more me this year, but I still renewed, because it's that important a tool for me. And, probably, this is just the hill I die on, owning something, that can't be whisked away at someone else's whim.
Obviously, they are still a corporate, but, until now they've respected me as a consumer unlike many other corporations. I value that.
They have their issues. But, which application does not?!
Their Git merge UI, is just top-notch. And keeps on improving I might use another coding agent, once JetBrain's credit runs out, but I review, and make all minor changes through the IDE
Project management is just a bliss.
Working with multi-language project? No IDE can manage this how good JetBrains does.
VIM binding is just so good, I don't miss VIM editor.
And the most important point is, they do not push something I do not want continuously. Don't want AI, turn it off, and it's not even there. My data is not being used to train some big LLM, or I am not counted as a product, is really important too.
Yeah, I hope they survive this messy shit, with the core that I have respect for. I hope they don't ruin that.
And, also, it's kind of having a principle, my own. I have issues with corruption manifested by all of these AI corporations. It's an itch that I can't scratch, so I am trying my best to stay away from them.
It's not JetBrains is good and all. But, they're not worse, yet.
I concur. Great prices, great products, great customer support.
I don't, since I read their privacy policy[0] before deciding to never use their software. Might I add: VSCodium[1] exists.
[0] https://www.jetbrains.com/legal/docs/privacy/privacy/
[1] https://vscodium.com/
I was aiming for VS Code but since I have used Intellij and android studio a lot maybe I'll give it a try.
I'd be interested to hear whether the 'spec' stuff works or not. I've been pondering adding a plugin for juggler based on the fact that we're rubbish at writing specs: so instead, when you prompt it, it'd get the model to list the assumptions that it's making about the task. Then the user can spot and correct any incorrect assumptions, rather than expecting the user to provide correct specs. (Haven't actually tried this yet, just speculating)
I love their products. But it's clear now that programming is now spec management and how do we control agents. I don't need JetBrains for that.
And spec management will become less technical as models get better. What does JetBrains think is the long term goal for this product? I don't think it'll make any sense in a few months.
As a point of comparison, Zed does the agentic side panel overall better (though still not perfectly), but Zed is still by its nature more limited than e.g. PyCharm or CLion or RustRover or Rider.
But, they still have a solid IDE, they just need to figure out what they can do without losing that edge.
I am all for experiments, that's where all the innovations comes from. But don't push VSCode bullshit on me. If I wanted to use that shit, I would use NVIM/Vim. But not VSCode.
Which one exactly? I used to love Webstorm and Rider, but there were so many workflow-breaking bugs in each new release of Webstorm that I switched to VS Code. I still use Rider, but I've stopped my All Products subscription, because new releases usually decreased the amount of well-working features (and new features often didn't work at all).
Around 2022 I'd have agreed 100%, but these days not so much.
It has full Rust, Java, Python, Web stack, things that I work with.
There were few issues here and there occasionally, but last few months I have not faced any issues, and it's been really robust. It gets slow with LLM providers running in the background on my 7 year old laptop though. But on desktop it flies.
One example: In August 2024, new Vue projects stopped working correctly with Webstorm - not terrible on it's own, stuff can happen. The issue was reported on August 19th[0]. Someone posted a workaround, and on August 29th, they announced that a future version will fix the issue.
That future version was released on October 23rd[1]. In the intervening two months there was no indication in Webstorm that the LSP crashing was a known issue with a workaround. Users just had to search for the issue, stumble upon the thread, and manually update the component. They couldn't release this tiny version bump for two months, or at least add a link to the issue thread.
This would be fine if Webstorm were free, but it's pretty freaking expensive, and I didn't get any money back for the product being defective for 1/6th of the year.
[0]: https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/WEB-68756/Vue-LS-2.x-Co...
[1]: https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/articles/WEB-A-233538543/WebS...
So many years I couldn't use Gnome properly because of an NVIDIA bug. We paid handsomely for our GPU, and they give a shit about us.
In the end, I'd love to see Jetbrains pull themselves together and return to their former glory. But I don't know if I'll ever give them another chance since their pricing structure heavily punishes unsubscribing. Since the bugs pushed me over that ledge, it'd seem that they should offer lower prices, not higher ones!
Sad to see that perspective. Many companies (at least in Germany) punish you for sticking with them.
Jetbrains is that rare company, where the important long term customers are rewarding by giving them a discount.
Their IDEs are still better than VS. I personally also wouldn't want to resort to VS Code with independent extensions.
They need to figure out what make sense here in terms of a product. I rather have a somewhat fragmented ecosystem right now than no relevant product from JetBrains whatsoever.
Their plan is so misguided. First they wanted to pay us for separate tool and THEIR AI, which is worse than what people already pay for, few months back they finally figured out nobody wants that and just integrated it into mainline editor and now this
I would urge JetBrains to put all their LLM power and human brains at work to slash their IDEs backlog and deliver the GOAT of all IDEs. Building IDEs is their strength and there will always be a market for that category.
Build a polyglot IDE that blends the agentic workflow (terminal chat sessions) with the power of an IDE. Index specs and code so that I can jump from specs to implementation and vice versa. Keep indexing all problems found in the project, with a simple "Ask agent to fix" dialog. Expose debuggers with Markdown output to agents via skills so that they stop trying to debug via logging. Keep the nice UI for build/debug/run configurations, which are still hugely important for reviewing PRs and acceptance testing what the agents are giving you. Upsell by charging to host JetBrains-cloud-isolated-agent-workspaces, like what it looks like Herdr is going to do, so that you're not limited by what you can develop solely on your machine, and development continues after you close the lid, and you can review the output with your teammates in multiplayer, like where Zed is going.
Is it really that hard?? It seems so obvious to me.
An AI slop webpage trying to sell me VS Code bullshit. Really?
Oh, I would like to disagree. Specs are transitional and have low value in the long term. The project/product documentation which one should make based on the specs and the actual implementation and found gotcha's - are the truth.
Space shuttle code might be the one exception.
I am a paying user of IntelliJ IDEA Ultimate, but lately I've been using mostly Claude Code Desktop App.
This is a cool product. Clearly, they made the agent chat pane the primary feature, while things like the Project Files and the editor itself is secondary (you are not even allowed to change files manually!).
The chat is very well done (I think it's just Pi?). People are saying how they use the IDE mostly for reviewing code, and ThinkRail makes that a primary feature as well: every change the agent makes gives you a "Review Turn" button that lets you look at exactly what was done. And the diff viewer is very good (not the same as IntelliJ, seems more like the VS Code viewer?).
It stores everything the agent does as a "Turn" so you can review every change at any time, like a git history. It also has the git log similar to IntelliJ, so you can still click on each commit in the history as well. In fact, the two things seem very similar, since each "Turn" normally results on a commit as well. It's stil unclear to me how "Turn"s are useful beyond the commit history.
It also has a fully functional terminal so you can try out things easily without leaving the tool.
JetBrains seems to have figured out how people are using their tools nowadays, and decided to go all in with this "Innovation Lab" tool.
I would still expect to be allowed to edit code/text myself in it, and maybe navigate around like in IntelliJ, but I guess I'm in the minority :P and most people just need something like this?! It's definitely much lighter than IntelliJ (it shows way down in my process list by memory, with around 140MB after quite a bit of usage, and it's highly responsive), so perhaps that's the main advantage, and bringing code navigation/editing/highlighting for all languages (it highlights the most common ones, but not LISP for example) would just result in a heavy tool again.
Its way of working with git worktrees exclusively is something I was already doing in the Claude Code App, so I think they got this right. However, CC App can also use a SSH remote connection (like TRAMP in emacs) to a devcontainer, and I've been using that a lot, so would be nice to have that option as well.
In conclusion: I like it and I think they may be going the right way with how things are going: the "IDE" becomes primarily a means to interact with agents. But at least for me, it's a bit too early to leave the full IDE completely, and I guess they could've made this just a "mode" inside IntelliJ without losing anything except for being very lightweight, and perhaps that's what they're going to do eventually?