Someone in that thread notes that when you install the Signal APK from here [1] it "doesn’t get updates tho", but this isn't the case. Signal will update itself; you get a notification to update. Often earlier than the Play Store, probably due to its reputation to randomly delay updates.
Yes, it notifies of updates (once it did wake me up in the middle of the night), but last time I checked, it does not update itself automatically. Obtanium works, though, but a bigger issue is the extreme power drainage of the websocket.
Signal sends you a notification that says "new version available, tap here to update", but tapping it never did anything for me. I have to re-download the apk their website every time there is an update.
Yeah. Installed Signal as raw apk in GrapheneOS and you just need to open it to install the update. It does not update automatically in background. But anyway, works.
I have the opposite use case where I need to have two Signal accounts on a single phone. Having Molly alongside the official Signal app was always the solution, but I wish Signal would allow switching between profiles, or Android would allow arbitrary user accounts (I don't really want to add Signal to my work profile).
The incorporated 501c3 named Signal is, in IT terms, a vendor. Is it not?
The Signal client software is open source and some of the clients have reproducible builds. The Signal server software is open source, though has a history of being over a year out of date at some points. Other deployments of this server software for production use are rare.
Suppose you configured an instance of the Signal server software and others you know ran also a somewhat modified Signal client that could access that instance of the Signal server software.
But the centralized namespace of the hosted Signal service hosted by the incorporated 501c3 named Signal would not be accessible through that server instance now would it.
This is vendor lock-in.
The service hosted by the 501c3 named Signal seems widely open yet is a permissioned namespace. A physical location tracking number aka phone number or a credit/debit card is required to access the namespace.
Open Signal on your phone to keep your account active
This is an abusive vendor.
And, I don't think this is what Moxie wanted.
Signal 501c3 is a centralized service. XMPP and Matrix are decentralized/federated. SimpleX is distributed.
Moxie as far as I know is still involved in the project and is the source of decisions such as requiring a phone number. My understanding is he is leaning hard on "encryption for anyone and everyone" over all other considerations such as decentralization.
A common criticism is "huh, not very anarchist of him!" Which, maybe? If decisions like that can get Signal into as many hands as possible, and if Signal can continue to operate in such a way as to have basically nothing to offer governments that demand data other than account join date, I think that's an improvement in material conditions.
Your bio has a pretty frank indication of the maximally decentralized, encrypted alternative, and how user hostile that still is:
> If you want to DM, I am generally open to chat. Generate a https://SimpleX.chat invite and paste it into a file simplex-invite.txt, then run the commands below and include pasted contents of DM.txt in one of your comments in any thread we're both participating in.
I'll steelman this a bit and mention there was a broad argument against software fragmentation.
This can be overcome with API versioning under the hood. If you have worked with backend services you may recognize prefixes in paths like /api/v1/ or /api/v1.2/
along with a holistic approach that doesn't fail to gracefully signal disparities and their implications however small or big. The holistic design and initial implementation does need to be there.
I am not optimistic about it but I'm willing to say it should be striven for, in lieu of an existing satisfactory implementation, rather than give in to vendor lock-in, even if that vendor didn't have the same abusive behavior cited in the comment at the top of this thread.
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> If decisions like that can get Signal into as many hands as possible
The phone numbers were useful for leveraging existing contact graphs.
How that has been twisted into excuse to abuse the users, demanding sustained participation in the PSTN (not the initial friction, the sustained friction), which is not an open network and user neutral network like Internet Protocol, is something different.
It does not pass the smell test.
Something is wrong on a fundamental level there.
In the other comment I posted, the false spectre of spam is knocked down.
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> if Signal can continue to operate in such a way as to have basically nothing to offer governments that demand data other than account join date
Signal can't hide which users talk to which other users. This metadata is visible to Signal's servers. Users using the centralized namespace functionally can not opt out of this.
Other systems have solved this problem and other larger problems surrounding it.
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> an improvement in material conditions.
It was. That was a long time ago. We are in this decade now.
The implementation of a protocol, not "platform", implementation of a protocol, suggested there is distributed. The delta between decentralized and distributed may look not too significant on the surface. In real-world practice the functional differences are major.
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> and how user hostile that still is:
Look at the two words at the top-left corner of this website. Do you see "User News"?
The use of GnuPG there renders the potentially posted data as functionally a "direct message" that other users can not see. This approach also confines the message to originate from the specific account of this site, which eliminates the potential for unsolicited+inauthentic messages.
You can probably surmise as I have there are many on here who aren't "hacker", who aren't even really software developer, or worse ought be more cautious posting in a place labeled like such.
The approach with GnuPG is extra, and a reasonable IQ filter.
Among not excluding below-average IQ users of SimpleX, sans those who truly can not locate their own asshole, copying and pasting a string to onboard for the first time really hasn't been a problem. It has been far less friction than Signal and with absolutely zero exposure of individual users to spam.
You should definitely avoid Session. While its decentralized nature is a positive, the developers have implemented many features insecurely and have also removed forward secrecy. There are blog posts by a cryptography expert on this topic: https://soatok.blog/2025/01/14/dont-use-session-signal-fork/
I'll just say that the main issue with SimpleX is that it lies in its marketing material that it has no identifiers. What they really mean is that they're not adding new identifiers in the app, it doesn't mean they're actively removing existing identifiers, that is, your IP address. The client currently routes messages through two hosting providers which reduces incidental metadata collection. But it does fuck all if the hosting providers collaborate unbeknownst to the users.
That being said, SimpleX has really good support for Tor, in that if you just install tor package to Linux over apt or whatever, and configure like two items in the app's proxy settings, the client will automatically switch to SimpleX Onion Service servers instead of routing to clearnet servers through exit nodes. I can respect that.
What I can't respect is the threat model being treated like a fine print that's buried beneath menus: When you claim to be the most private messenger out there you need to act the part.
> Moxie knows about everything I’ve said in this article. He’s a very smart guy and I am under no illusions that he doesn’t understand everything I’ve put forth. I don’t think that Moxie makes these choices because he thinks they’re the right thing to do. [...] Moxie can’t come out and say it openly, but he’s made the decisions he has made because they serve his own interests.
And it looks like it's working. The Signal social network is growing. Revenue is growing (revenue pays for ongoing maintenance). Alternative servers are not sapping user metrics. It's still easy to push both security fixes and eye-catching new features because one central server, and client upgrades are aggressively pushed. Spam is not a plague because registration remains expensive - you need a genuine phone number you control, or Google to vouch for you (who in turn have their own robust defences against account creation).
If it was a free sign up where you just need an IP address to play, spammers would have hundreds of millions of accounts and you'd get as much nuisance friend requests as you get email spam. Most people would leave. You've seen the scraperpocalypse, every sketchy person on the planet has money to fund a million sign ups each from a unique US residential IP (thanks to "smart" TV vendor neglect/corruption allowing residential proxies), IP reputation is worthless.
Personal instances of Signal would hide until spammers found them but you'd better have your own locked down registration because you can't hide forever. Not to mention that sending ongoing traffic to your own server tells everyone where and when you're posting, moreso than using Signal's centralised services.
You think, users should be required to carry a cell phone or make use of a debit card or credit card, in order to message another user, is exactly, what Matthew wanted?
A self-described anarchist who described the original cypherpunks as his teenage heroes?
When XMPP+OTR had already been, among competent people, the prevalent norm for over half a decade when he gave that DEF CON 18 talk?
That looks like crazy talk.
In that DEF CON 18 talk, Moxie talked about scope of choice and how the scope of choice changed to "do I want to carry a cell phone, or not?". A notion that Matthew's dream was to impose on the world a demand to carry a cell phone or a debit/credit card transaction on others, such a tax, to enjoy what he and his friends already had for free, is on its face absurd.
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> Spam is not a plague because registration remains expensive
The issue of spam is fully mitigated with an invite token, a 16 byte string ; "is", not "can be", because other systems in production have already been doing this.
The way it works is simple. If Alice wants to receive a message from Bob, Alice can share a connection string username+token to Bob. Then Bob can message Alice and for that time not other users of the hosted centralized namespace.
Very simple concept.
Simple enough for a mediocre dev to implement without an LLM.
The spectre of spam does not justify the demand for a tracking device, nor the friction involved with an uninvolved and unwanted third party named Google (love Google overall but this is such a bastardly and disgusting concept), nor does it justify demanding a debit/credit card transaction become involved.
The spectre of spam does not justify any of this horse shit.
"Hey Bob, here is my username to message me, provided you subject yourself to this horse shit", where such horse shit antithetical in a fundamental way to the values espoused founder of Signal.
The new, grossly degenerated Scope of Choice.
Perhaps some who call themselves "hackers" or software developers may have been actually fooled by this false spectre of spam. I was never among them.
Even worse, the phone numbers, Google Play accounts, debit cards and credit cards, these are cheap. Among the scammer underworld these are a plenty and fungible.
An invite token personally sent by Alice or read aloud by Alice to Bob, is not.
But if somebody wants to harass a specific user on Signal, that's relatively cheap to do.
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> Not to mention that sending ongoing traffic to your own server tells everyone where and when you're posting
Uncle Jeff, AWS, who doesn't tell exactly everyone but a lot of people, not excluding ICE at any given time, knows when you are posting, from where, and to what other users. The last of which is specifically obviated by a separate namespace hosted on a separate server.
On the occasions I have run Signal's server software, I and other users did mitigate these concerns. We do appreciate that others also have these means, or not.
Another messaging system, you may have already read its name actually, has already solved these problems in a way that they are successfully mitigated in a wholly transparent way for casual users.
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> Its tradeoffs all the way down.
Right. In Matthew's view, the horse shit is a tradeoff.
I believe there are other tradeoffs available that are ethical, not more ethical, but ethical, and carry much less technical complexity.
Sometimes I get the feeling that Signal hates users who aren't total normies. Unified Push, which works flawlessly on Molly, could easily be implemented in the regular client. Just as they could easily offer a Google free version for F-Droid or simply for people who want nothing to do with Google. But they just refuse. Just like it took years for nicknames to be introduced, and registering without a phone number has only recently become possible and only through the Google Play Store.
I also would like it to have stable supported libraries. But this doesn't seem to be a focus. It's a pitty, we have a Foss solution and it's hard to integrate with it....
2 years ago when I got a new phone, I had to re-register in both WhatsApp and Signal.
Both send you a code over SMS. I hate giving apps SMS access, so I refuse SMS intercept permission when an app asks for it, and instead I manually enter the received code in the app.
This was possible in WhatsApp, but was not possible in Signal. It won't allow you. You must give it SMS access to read the code. So much for privacy/security/... Only app I use which didn't allow me to manually enter the SMS code.
I understand you’re being a bit overdramatic to make a point, but no, Signal and Facebook messenger are not the same levels of secure for the user. That’s not the same as “trust them wholly,” but surely you understand they are on very different ends of the spectrum.
I've used F-Droid for years. It's simple, has good apps that aren't full of ads, just works. PGP... sucks a lot, I never really got along with it. Maybe an age thing, but hardly anyone I've met uses PGP/GPG. Yet I have many friends/family on Matrix.
No it's the other way around. Signal is explicitly designed for normies, which is why so many people use it. I doubt they sat around and thought of ways to screw certain users.
>Just as they could easily offer a Google free version
Easily? There's no easy in maintaining and releasing two different versions of your app, especially for a small non-profit.
Hates users who are not total normies and designed explicitly for normies are not opposite. In fact an app that hates not normies would be designed for explicitly for normies.
> Easily? There's no easy in maintaining and releasing two different versions of your app, especially for a small non-profit.
It's literally just another job on your CI. They got a 50 million seed donation in 2017 and reported almost 30 million in revenue in 2024. They are not exactly small. If they were VC founded and not a non profit they would be a unicorn.
> They got a 50 million seed donation in 2017 and reported almost 30 million in revenue in 2024. They are not exactly small. If they were VC founded and not a non profit they would be a unicorn.
The donation to Signal and VC investment are very different things: Donations to Signal are for operating costs. VCs invest for the purpose of enabling and owning a share of exponential growth to 'unicorn' status.
> unicorn
Unicorns are billion dollar companies that are rapidly growing. Signal isn't close to that.
Interestingly here, the sqlite DB would be trivially fixable, and messages restorable, with the `sqlite3` CLI.
But there's no way to get at that sqlite DB file. Even if you change Signal's code to add a feature to export the DB, it apparently cannot see your DB, because iOS sandboxes that so that it is only visible to Signal builds signed with the Signal developers' keys.
So that means your messages are all there, on your device, running open-source software, and yet you cannot get them.
This cannot have been the intention of Signal being Free Software. Where is "change it to make it do what you wish (freedom 1)"?
(I do not use iOS myself but have friends suffering this issue. Everybody involved is programmers and yet we seem to be able to do nothing about it.)
So it seems that even though the messages are on the user's device, it really is the Signal developers who "own" that data, and have the exclusive and ultimate control over it.
Makes me wonder:
Does this mean users suffering this need to GDPR-request their data out from Signal?
I'm not sure about Signal, but I had a similar issue with another app, a SQLite db inaccessible. I found that you could take a computer-based full backup and then there are various 3rd party tools that will poke through that backup for whatever "hidden" app data you need. One I previously used is iMazing, but I'm sure there are free open source ones as well.
An owner of a device in physical possession of it and with the knowledge of all keys and passwords involved, they should be able to get all their personal data stored on it out of it, yes I think so, no matter who signs what on whatever app store.
> Even if you change Signal's code to add a feature to export the DB, it apparently cannot see your DB, because iOS sandboxes that so that it is only visible to Signal builds signed with the Signal developers' keys.
This is not something exclusive to iOS; Android does the same thing.
Signal hates anyone who even thinks about using this IM app as the de-facto IM app, or with more than that one person who also tries Singal as an annual ritual in your friend circle. I tried to use the app again after a year or so. Gave it full contact permission and it wasn't able to pick friends who are alreasy on Signal. I was not even able to send them messages using the number. But a friend was able to send it a message to me. After 2-3 days finally the app started showing friend's name that's in contact. Tut there were scary warnings (I know, I know that's for my safery). The whole UX just feels at odd with anything and everything I've used. They manage to look and feel worse than WhatsApp of today and that I'd say is an achievement.
They could still implement these things in the app and put them behind a switch for users who care about independence more than one specific type of anonymity. Explain the tradeoffs on the settings screen.
The only valid reason to be against an optional feature is the maintenance burden, I don't think it's too much here but I also can't speak for the Signal team.
> When you say "Each group of users can have their own servers" you aren't enhancing privacy you are standing out.
You're also hedging against mandated government backdoors.
A single organisation like signal can easily compelled to add a backdoor (or leave the territory) like the EU is trying to do. Going after thousands of servers individually is a whole different problem.
>You're also hedging against mandated government backdoors.
Let's see the law that allows compelling backdoor into Signal then. AFAIK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States established code as speech, meaning compelling backdoor is compelled speech, which goes against the first.
Using the preinstalled Google services effectively turns your smartphone into spyware. In the standard Android that comes preinstalled on most smartphones, Google services run with system privileges and can collect all kinds of data including location data. If Signal exclusively supports this, it reinforces dependence on Google and discourages people from using versions of Android that don’t include Google’s spyware.
The whole point is that it's unusable without Google services due to battery drain. Meta got it right with WhatsApp and a battery-efficient WebSockets implementation for notifications without Google services, but Signal's implementation is poor.
This is an exaggerated take. I've been running Signal on LineageOS for years across at least 5 different phones in exactly this manner with no Google services installed. I'm currently using a Motorola G84 and charge every 2 days with moderate usage; Signal is my primary communication method with family.
The G84 has a very good battery by default though, judging from its predecessor. It can take some additional strain. Something weaker will suffer more.
I have run Signal on LineageOS or GrapheneOS for over a decade, no Google services, and I have always had satisfactory battery life, i.e. ~2 days of normal use.
I bought a PinePhone, so I definitely know what truly unoptimized battery life looks like, lol.
There just is a contention between software freedom and privacy that people don't want to acknowledge sometimes. Signal is firmly on one side of the divide, and their software is open source because it is the convention to have the source public and auditable, not because they are interested in user freedom and respect.
It's not that they're not interested in user freedom and respect. They just have different ideas about what's important. If Signal federates, that will bring to the table all sorts of 3rd party clients who will have say in how Signal does things, yet no duty to comply with the Signal's spec sheet and deploy timely protocol updates and features. Any clients not keeping up are damaging the brand, as was in the case of Matrix clients' poor support for E2EE. Then there's the aspect that the larger the organization managing the spec becomes, the easier it is to infiltrate and clog with bikeshedding.
Signal's strength is its security agility and thoughtful feature design, not federation and availability.
Yeah, the hostility toward F-Droid and wanting to run their app on LineageOS without gapps made me ditch Signal years ago. It seemed like the main gimmick back then was that it was also your SMS app, which IIRC isn't a choice anymore. So what's the draw now? Why would you not use XMPP+OMEMO or Matrix which work everywhere, don't need a phone number (at all, ever), and have free as in freedom clients and servers? It's insane to me.
To put it simply, I need a messenger app to talk to other people. Most people I talk to are not programmers or very tech savvy.
Putting them on Signal requires me to convince them to download an app from the play store, with thr same name. The app is very similar to messenger or whatsapp and they're used to the functionality already. So many of my friends made an account so we can talk.
Anything more involved and they stay on meta's garden. Any successful messaging app needs to prioritize "normies" to get users.
Before the smartphone era, non-tech-savvy young people were still pretty tech-savvy compared to modern computer (= phone) users, who rarely step outside a few corporate phone apps and have even lost the concept of the file and the directory. You can't expect the same curiosity and willingness to make an effort from normies today as back in the XMPP era.
Well I bet you didn't have to convince them to leave messenger back then.
It's not that they are not capable of figuring out something more complex. It's that it's hard to convince non-tech savvy friends to switch apps and it becomes much harder if the alternative needs setup or feels unfamiliar .
> Sometimes I get the feeling that Signal hates users
one would think this is a well known fact already after the PIN nag screen forcing users to use PIN or have half of the screen blocked (at that time we left with family and never returned back) or removal of SMS feature, which would be only reason why to keep Signal in the phone for those few people who use it since you could use it at least to receive SMS
Signal is not good for normies: compare sending a message with Signal to WhatsApp. Didn’t go through? WhatsApp will try try try to resend. Signal tries far less then shows the dreaded red exclamation point. Not great while travelling or with poor reception.
I spend about half of every year traveling the mountains and deserts of the world, often ones with poor infrastructure. I use Signal more than any other messenger app, and I have never had the deliverability issues you complain about; messages do all get through eventually.
One of the most frustrating decisions from them was to stop allowing signal to be a catch-all messenger for encrypted and non-encrypted messages. I was able to onboard so many people, including very non techy relatives, because switching to a secure app for a small subset of people was never something they really wanted to do.
For security and privacy to really win out and raise the bar, it has to be able to happen in the background without the user even realizing it.
Making an app for enthusiasts is fine but Signal is going to remain niche if they can't make it more of an open ecosystem.
I have been a signal user from very early on, converted most of my family and quite a few friends. I did use Molly to register my second phone (just found I can do that with signal now, so uninstalled Molly and installed signal).I have the impression that the calling experience significantly degraded over the last year, i.e. calls just not ringing at the other end, sometimes even not showing as missed calls, Video calls being very low quality even though both ends are on high quality connections (and switching to other apps yields high quality). Just yesterday I was standing in a queue inside and a friend was outside. We both tried to call each other but the call was just giving ringtone without ringing on the other end. It's become so bad that I'm now considering setting up my own matrix server and transition to that.
Anyone else experiencing the same? I have been wondering if it might have been me using molly, so will test now after going back to signal for second device.
Now should be quite a good time to set up a Matrix server fwiw; we are finally at the tail-end of the journey to Matrix 2.0 (instant sync; auth via OAuth; native multiparty e2ee calling; encryption which operates invisibly). https://matrix.org/blog/2026/10/30/this-week-in-matrix-2026-... gives an overview of where things are at. I'm biased, but by far the easiest and most robust way to run a Matrix stack should be https://github.com/element-hq/ess-helm#ess-community.
As someone that follows This Week In Matrix, is there likely to be a major shuffle in the next few weeks regarding calling configuration for self-hosting? I see that there is work being done, thoug I'm not sure how much that will affect server operators
no, there shouldn't be; MatrixRTC calling has finally (after only 5 years of iteration :) stabilised. The biggest change is renaming the APIs from unstable to stable URL prefixes, but this should be invisible.
It explains perfectly why Signal does not want third-party clients.
To the haters: I am not saying that it is perfect, in an ideal world we could have secure third-party clients. I am just saying that it is pragmatic: in our world, we don't.
Signal has forever been a pragmatic approach to private messaging, and it succeeded at that: Signal literally put E2EE on the map!
Signal has a threat model, and they do the best app they can addressing that threat model. Which means that they cannot accept third-party clients or federation. They don't say "you cannot use XMPP or SimpleX or Matrix on the side", they just say "we provide this, if you benefit from it, use it for free".
Still, there is a very vocal minority that takes every opportunity they take to explain how "insane" that is, and how they "cannot imagine how anyone with some kind of intelligence wouldn't be revolted". I believe it is the same posture as those complaining about Android or GrapheneOS not giving root access ("even in the advanced settings"). The fact is that if you want root access on your phone, you should install a system that gives you root access, and not select a system that does not and then complain.
Signal is great at what it does. It's okay to also want something else while acknowledging that Signal is great at what it does.
Network-connected application developers have as a community, desensitized me to this. They are the Boy Who Cried Wolf. Continuous mandatory updates in the name of security. Guilting you into thinking each update is critical due to "security".
I don't care. It's a hassle, and I don't believe the threats they warn of are something to warrant my attention in the landscape of things I should worry about in my life. Anecdotes don't help. To overload with another analogy: Security is a "think of the children" or "full stop": it's a thought-terminating cliche, and I don't believe people who use it.
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[ 0.26 ms ] story [ 20.1 ms ] thread[1] https://signal.org/android/apk/
Signal got an update yesterday and when I saw the notification I couldn't remember the last time Molly was updated...
This was my main reason to use Molly over Signal.
https://aboutsignal.com/news/signal-allows-iphones-to-be-lin...
I’ve been using Beeper to keep using Signal on my older iPhone when I upgraded.
But, apparently Android is also supported: https://aboutsignal.com/news/signal-allows-android-phones-to...
So glad they finally added this!
https://support.google.com/android/answer/15341885?hl=en
The Signal client software is open source and some of the clients have reproducible builds. The Signal server software is open source, though has a history of being over a year out of date at some points. Other deployments of this server software for production use are rare.
Suppose you configured an instance of the Signal server software and others you know ran also a somewhat modified Signal client that could access that instance of the Signal server software.
But the centralized namespace of the hosted Signal service hosted by the incorporated 501c3 named Signal would not be accessible through that server instance now would it.
This is vendor lock-in.
The service hosted by the 501c3 named Signal seems widely open yet is a permissioned namespace. A physical location tracking number aka phone number or a credit/debit card is required to access the namespace.
This is an abusive vendor.And, I don't think this is what Moxie wanted.
Signal 501c3 is a centralized service. XMPP and Matrix are decentralized/federated. SimpleX is distributed.
Moxie as far as I know is still involved in the project and is the source of decisions such as requiring a phone number. My understanding is he is leaning hard on "encryption for anyone and everyone" over all other considerations such as decentralization.
A common criticism is "huh, not very anarchist of him!" Which, maybe? If decisions like that can get Signal into as many hands as possible, and if Signal can continue to operate in such a way as to have basically nothing to offer governments that demand data other than account join date, I think that's an improvement in material conditions.
Your bio has a pretty frank indication of the maximally decentralized, encrypted alternative, and how user hostile that still is:
> If you want to DM, I am generally open to chat. Generate a https://SimpleX.chat invite and paste it into a file simplex-invite.txt, then run the commands below and include pasted contents of DM.txt in one of your comments in any thread we're both participating in.
I'll steelman this a bit and mention there was a broad argument against software fragmentation.
This can be overcome with API versioning under the hood. If you have worked with backend services you may recognize prefixes in paths like /api/v1/ or /api/v1.2/
along with a holistic approach that doesn't fail to gracefully signal disparities and their implications however small or big. The holistic design and initial implementation does need to be there.
I am not optimistic about it but I'm willing to say it should be striven for, in lieu of an existing satisfactory implementation, rather than give in to vendor lock-in, even if that vendor didn't have the same abusive behavior cited in the comment at the top of this thread.
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> If decisions like that can get Signal into as many hands as possible
The phone numbers were useful for leveraging existing contact graphs.
How that has been twisted into excuse to abuse the users, demanding sustained participation in the PSTN (not the initial friction, the sustained friction), which is not an open network and user neutral network like Internet Protocol, is something different.
It does not pass the smell test.
Something is wrong on a fundamental level there.
In the other comment I posted, the false spectre of spam is knocked down.
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> if Signal can continue to operate in such a way as to have basically nothing to offer governments that demand data other than account join date
Signal can't hide which users talk to which other users. This metadata is visible to Signal's servers. Users using the centralized namespace functionally can not opt out of this.
Other systems have solved this problem and other larger problems surrounding it.
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> an improvement in material conditions.
It was. That was a long time ago. We are in this decade now.
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> Your bio has [..] the maximally decentralized
See the graphic here
The implementation of a protocol, not "platform", implementation of a protocol, suggested there is distributed. The delta between decentralized and distributed may look not too significant on the surface. In real-world practice the functional differences are major._
> and how user hostile that still is:
Look at the two words at the top-left corner of this website. Do you see "User News"?
The use of GnuPG there renders the potentially posted data as functionally a "direct message" that other users can not see. This approach also confines the message to originate from the specific account of this site, which eliminates the potential for unsolicited+inauthentic messages.
You can probably surmise as I have there are many on here who aren't "hacker", who aren't even really software developer, or worse ought be more cautious posting in a place labeled like such.
The approach with GnuPG is extra, and a reasonable IQ filter.
Among not excluding below-average IQ users of SimpleX, sans those who truly can not locate their own asshole, copying and pasting a string to onboard for the first time really hasn't been a problem. It has been far less friction than Signal and with absolutely zero exposure of individual users to spam.
Session is a decentralized Signal fork that creates the account on the device without associating it with a phone number.
https://getsession.org/
See also maqp2's comment here regarding Simplex:
https://web.archive.org/web/20250302182017/https://reddit.co...
I'll just say that the main issue with SimpleX is that it lies in its marketing material that it has no identifiers. What they really mean is that they're not adding new identifiers in the app, it doesn't mean they're actively removing existing identifiers, that is, your IP address. The client currently routes messages through two hosting providers which reduces incidental metadata collection. But it does fuck all if the hosting providers collaborate unbeknownst to the users.
That being said, SimpleX has really good support for Tor, in that if you just install tor package to Linux over apt or whatever, and configure like two items in the app's proxy settings, the client will automatically switch to SimpleX Onion Service servers instead of routing to clearnet servers through exit nodes. I can respect that.
What I can't respect is the threat model being treated like a fine print that's buried beneath menus: When you claim to be the most private messenger out there you need to act the part.
I think this is exactly what he wanted, as these were the complaints levelled against the service when he was still in charge.
From 2018: https://drewdevault.com/blog/Signal/
> Moxie knows about everything I’ve said in this article. He’s a very smart guy and I am under no illusions that he doesn’t understand everything I’ve put forth. I don’t think that Moxie makes these choices because he thinks they’re the right thing to do. [...] Moxie can’t come out and say it openly, but he’s made the decisions he has made because they serve his own interests.
And it looks like it's working. The Signal social network is growing. Revenue is growing (revenue pays for ongoing maintenance). Alternative servers are not sapping user metrics. It's still easy to push both security fixes and eye-catching new features because one central server, and client upgrades are aggressively pushed. Spam is not a plague because registration remains expensive - you need a genuine phone number you control, or Google to vouch for you (who in turn have their own robust defences against account creation).
If it was a free sign up where you just need an IP address to play, spammers would have hundreds of millions of accounts and you'd get as much nuisance friend requests as you get email spam. Most people would leave. You've seen the scraperpocalypse, every sketchy person on the planet has money to fund a million sign ups each from a unique US residential IP (thanks to "smart" TV vendor neglect/corruption allowing residential proxies), IP reputation is worthless.
Personal instances of Signal would hide until spammers found them but you'd better have your own locked down registration because you can't hide forever. Not to mention that sending ongoing traffic to your own server tells everyone where and when you're posting, moreso than using Signal's centralised services.
Its tradeoffs all the way down.
> I think this is exactly what he wanted
You think, users should be required to carry a cell phone or make use of a debit card or credit card, in order to message another user, is exactly, what Matthew wanted?
A self-described anarchist who described the original cypherpunks as his teenage heroes?
When XMPP+OTR had already been, among competent people, the prevalent norm for over half a decade when he gave that DEF CON 18 talk?
That looks like crazy talk.
In that DEF CON 18 talk, Moxie talked about scope of choice and how the scope of choice changed to "do I want to carry a cell phone, or not?". A notion that Matthew's dream was to impose on the world a demand to carry a cell phone or a debit/credit card transaction on others, such a tax, to enjoy what he and his friends already had for free, is on its face absurd.
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> Spam is not a plague because registration remains expensive
The issue of spam is fully mitigated with an invite token, a 16 byte string ; "is", not "can be", because other systems in production have already been doing this.
The way it works is simple. If Alice wants to receive a message from Bob, Alice can share a connection string username+token to Bob. Then Bob can message Alice and for that time not other users of the hosted centralized namespace.
Very simple concept.
Simple enough for a mediocre dev to implement without an LLM.
The spectre of spam does not justify the demand for a tracking device, nor the friction involved with an uninvolved and unwanted third party named Google (love Google overall but this is such a bastardly and disgusting concept), nor does it justify demanding a debit/credit card transaction become involved.
The spectre of spam does not justify any of this horse shit.
"Hey Bob, here is my username to message me, provided you subject yourself to this horse shit", where such horse shit antithetical in a fundamental way to the values espoused founder of Signal.
The new, grossly degenerated Scope of Choice.
Perhaps some who call themselves "hackers" or software developers may have been actually fooled by this false spectre of spam. I was never among them.
Even worse, the phone numbers, Google Play accounts, debit cards and credit cards, these are cheap. Among the scammer underworld these are a plenty and fungible.
An invite token personally sent by Alice or read aloud by Alice to Bob, is not.
But if somebody wants to harass a specific user on Signal, that's relatively cheap to do.
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> Not to mention that sending ongoing traffic to your own server tells everyone where and when you're posting
Uncle Jeff, AWS, who doesn't tell exactly everyone but a lot of people, not excluding ICE at any given time, knows when you are posting, from where, and to what other users. The last of which is specifically obviated by a separate namespace hosted on a separate server.
On the occasions I have run Signal's server software, I and other users did mitigate these concerns. We do appreciate that others also have these means, or not.
Another messaging system, you may have already read its name actually, has already solved these problems in a way that they are successfully mitigated in a wholly transparent way for casual users.
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> Its tradeoffs all the way down.
Right. In Matthew's view, the horse shit is a tradeoff.
I believe there are other tradeoffs available that are ethical, not more ethical, but ethical, and carry much less technical complexity.
Both send you a code over SMS. I hate giving apps SMS access, so I refuse SMS intercept permission when an app asks for it, and instead I manually enter the received code in the app.
This was possible in WhatsApp, but was not possible in Signal. It won't allow you. You must give it SMS access to read the code. So much for privacy/security/... Only app I use which didn't allow me to manually enter the SMS code.
Non-normies can continue to use PGP like they always have.
/s second paragraph.
As it stands it's a proprietary app with a lot o marketing to convince me otherwise.
Today, I discussed my father's health condition with my family. Signal worked smoothly (even for my aging mother!), and it's free and secure.
Over the past five years, I have donated $500 to the foundation in total. I hope they continue to maintain the app into the far future.
No it's the other way around. Signal is explicitly designed for normies, which is why so many people use it. I doubt they sat around and thought of ways to screw certain users.
>Just as they could easily offer a Google free version
Easily? There's no easy in maintaining and releasing two different versions of your app, especially for a small non-profit.
> Easily? There's no easy in maintaining and releasing two different versions of your app, especially for a small non-profit.
It's literally just another job on your CI. They got a 50 million seed donation in 2017 and reported almost 30 million in revenue in 2024. They are not exactly small. If they were VC founded and not a non profit they would be a unicorn.
The donation to Signal and VC investment are very different things: Donations to Signal are for operating costs. VCs invest for the purpose of enabling and owning a share of exponential growth to 'unicorn' status.
> unicorn
Unicorns are billion dollar companies that are rapidly growing. Signal isn't close to that.
https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/5813
Interestingly here, the sqlite DB would be trivially fixable, and messages restorable, with the `sqlite3` CLI.
But there's no way to get at that sqlite DB file. Even if you change Signal's code to add a feature to export the DB, it apparently cannot see your DB, because iOS sandboxes that so that it is only visible to Signal builds signed with the Signal developers' keys.
So that means your messages are all there, on your device, running open-source software, and yet you cannot get them.
This cannot have been the intention of Signal being Free Software. Where is "change it to make it do what you wish (freedom 1)"?
(I do not use iOS myself but have friends suffering this issue. Everybody involved is programmers and yet we seem to be able to do nothing about it.)
So it seems that even though the messages are on the user's device, it really is the Signal developers who "own" that data, and have the exclusive and ultimate control over it.
Makes me wonder:
Does this mean users suffering this need to GDPR-request their data out from Signal?
Best of luck!
It seems to me like the app itself should be able to perform this operation and restore data? Why is this not just fixed in the app?
Which is all well; after all nobody is paying them to do it.
My complaint is that they + iOS simultaneously prevent able users from fixing it themselves, or paying somebody to fix it.
Copy the backup off your phone and use https://github.com/bepaald/signalbackup-tools to extract everything.
If yes, that's exactly what the users in the linked bug report are asking Signal to add to be able to fix this problem themselves.
This is not something exclusive to iOS; Android does the same thing.
When you say "Each user can choose a different notification service" you aren't enhancing privacy you are standing out.
When you say "Each group of users can have their own servers" you aren't enhancing privacy you are standing out.
So yeah, it's only for "total normies" in the sense that if you insist on standing out from those "total normies" that's a problem.
Signal is taking advantage of the inherent camouflage of crowds, once you insist on standing out that's gone and you can't get it back.
The only valid reason to be against an optional feature is the maintenance burden, I don't think it's too much here but I also can't speak for the Signal team.
You're also hedging against mandated government backdoors.
A single organisation like signal can easily compelled to add a backdoor (or leave the territory) like the EU is trying to do. Going after thousands of servers individually is a whole different problem.
Let's see the law that allows compelling backdoor into Signal then. AFAIK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States established code as speech, meaning compelling backdoor is compelled speech, which goes against the first.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_as_speech goes into this in more detail and mentions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_d... where the defense was used.
Install vanilla LineageOS or GrapheneOS with no GApps. Then install Signal from https://signal.org/android/apk/
I bought a PinePhone, so I definitely know what truly unoptimized battery life looks like, lol.
Signal's strength is its security agility and thoughtful feature design, not federation and availability.
If you don't know how computers work, yeah it sounds great. But those who do know how computers work see it for what it really is: a bucket of shit.
Putting them on Signal requires me to convince them to download an app from the play store, with thr same name. The app is very similar to messenger or whatsapp and they're used to the functionality already. So many of my friends made an account so we can talk.
Anything more involved and they stay on meta's garden. Any successful messaging app needs to prioritize "normies" to get users.
It's not that they are not capable of figuring out something more complex. It's that it's hard to convince non-tech savvy friends to switch apps and it becomes much harder if the alternative needs setup or feels unfamiliar .
one would think this is a well known fact already after the PIN nag screen forcing users to use PIN or have half of the screen blocked (at that time we left with family and never returned back) or removal of SMS feature, which would be only reason why to keep Signal in the phone for those few people who use it since you could use it at least to receive SMS
It’s security!
For security and privacy to really win out and raise the bar, it has to be able to happen in the background without the user even realizing it.
Making an app for enthusiasts is fine but Signal is going to remain niche if they can't make it more of an open ecosystem.
Anyone else experiencing the same? I have been wondering if it might have been me using molly, so will test now after going back to signal for second device.
To the haters: I am not saying that it is perfect, in an ideal world we could have secure third-party clients. I am just saying that it is pragmatic: in our world, we don't.
Signal has forever been a pragmatic approach to private messaging, and it succeeded at that: Signal literally put E2EE on the map!
Signal has a threat model, and they do the best app they can addressing that threat model. Which means that they cannot accept third-party clients or federation. They don't say "you cannot use XMPP or SimpleX or Matrix on the side", they just say "we provide this, if you benefit from it, use it for free".
Still, there is a very vocal minority that takes every opportunity they take to explain how "insane" that is, and how they "cannot imagine how anyone with some kind of intelligence wouldn't be revolted". I believe it is the same posture as those complaining about Android or GrapheneOS not giving root access ("even in the advanced settings"). The fact is that if you want root access on your phone, you should install a system that gives you root access, and not select a system that does not and then complain.
Signal is great at what it does. It's okay to also want something else while acknowledging that Signal is great at what it does.
I don't care. It's a hassle, and I don't believe the threats they warn of are something to warrant my attention in the landscape of things I should worry about in my life. Anecdotes don't help. To overload with another analogy: Security is a "think of the children" or "full stop": it's a thought-terminating cliche, and I don't believe people who use it.