I upvoted this because I think it's an interesting experiment. Attempting to raise $1M+ every day for a month, though, I think is insanely ambitious. Asking people for $830 for a device that they won't get for a year is asking a lot, particularly since the specs aren't worlds away from current phones (two years time, and probably $500 would get you a device with those specs, unlocked).
Worse, I just don't even get the use case. If I have to dock it with stuff to make it work, that means I need some kind of installation. Spending more money just so I can carry my PC around instead of having at home on a desk - hm, really not sure about that. People who use their mobile as a primary device tend not to have any sort of desktop, and I don't really get the impression they miss it that much.
I'm wondering if the ambitious goal of $32M is part of their strategy. Given that a higher goal is less likely to be met, I (and others who might consider backing) may be willing to adjust our risk function for the $600-800 such that we are more likely to back the project. Assuming that after 30 days only $20M is raised, then the outcome is as follows:
1: Nobody is actually charged for supporting the project
2: Other interested parties (phone manufacturers and carriers) will see that there is demand for a phone that doesn't even exist yet. These interested parties might consider reaching this market to differentiate from the current phone OS leaders.
3: Canonical still gets to see their OS in smartphones.
Maybe I'm reaching at straws. I do believe them when they say that manufacturing at scale is expensive.
Yeah, it's quite possible they realise how unlikely the target is, and it could just be a way of attempting to demonstrate the market (given $830 is likely at one end of the bell-curve, it's a potentially interesting data point).
I find it a bit baffling. I refuse to believe Canonical want to enter the hardware market, but maybe there is a Nexus-like role for this hardware in terms of getting the ODMs to up their game. But, as a way of testing the market, I don't understand it. The FirefoxOS approach is much more appropriate, tbh, and if anything they need volume (which is going to come from the lower end of the market) not quality.
> I refuse to believe Canonical want to enter the hardware market
I don't know, from all the design hints Canonical's been dropping in the last few years, it seems like they really are trying to place themselves as direct competitors to apple, however naive/overambitious that may sound. So a play for hardware wouldn't surprise me that much. I think this stunt would make much less sense if it were purely to advance an android/firefox-style mobile os strategy.
In the video Mark says that they're not making it for consumers and saying that they want other companies to do it and they will show them kind of thing.
It doesn't sound to inspiring in the long term though.
> they want other companies to do it and they will show them
Isn't that what the iphone inadvertently did anyway though? If Edge succeeds, the logical consequence would be that other manufacturers would start to pay attention in one form or another, Canonical just seems to be upfront about the fact and is trying to presumably leverage it somehow.
Apple's strategy is based around ios exclusivity on a limited set of 'high-end' devices though, so it's hard to predict what exactly Canonical is planning for after the Edge succeeds/fails. I'm fairly certain Shuttleworth is heavily inspired by the Apple playbook, but their hints at android-like distribution are admittedly somewhat confusing. It's almost like they want to do both modes of attack, but I'm not sure how that would work (nor how competing directly against android would succeed either for that matter). Only time will tell.
Personally, I find the sheer fact that they're actually Open and trying something new to be quite inspiring on it's own. Long-term? That's anyone's guess, but I wouldn't exactly bet against them at this point, that's for sure.
I would have backed based on this theory if it was a Kickstarter project. Kickstarter uses Amazon and doesn't charge until the end of the drive. Indiegogo uses Paypal, and charges immediately, giving a refund if the drive fails. While both of these differences aren't quite showstoppers, they're enough that I didn't pull the trigger on something that seems highly unlikely to succeed. I wouldn't mind paying $600 for this thing if it actually happened, but I would mind having $600 sitting around in my rarely used paypal account.
I've had the opposite experience, which is why I'm bringing up this issue. However, my refund was processed as a payment to me rather than a refund, so it's quite possible that your experience is the more typical one.
If you use a credit or debit card, yes. PayPal, however, does everything possible to (get you to) use ACH transfer from your bank account instead. In that case, I believe that you would end up with $600/$850 sitting in your PayPal account and withdrawing can be a PITA in some cases.
I do appreciate you pointing this difference out though, because it does mean that folks will have $600 (or $830) tied up in this from day 1 and not from day 31.
One possible problem with withdraw later is that you're subjected to 2.5% conversion fee if you're not withdraw to US bank account. In the end some international user will need to pay PayPal about $15 to get refund.
So let's say this campaign comes close but doesn't reach its goal. Someone is then on the hook for close to a million dollars in credit card charges. It doesn't appear to be the individual. But the FAQ is deeply unclear as to whether it is Indiegogo or Canonical who gets to pay these fees. Anyone know?
Money isn't static, and the interest isn't negligible.
Assuming you can get 1 % interest per month on the 32,000,000 before paying it out, that is still 320k. They can hold it for 2-3 months and pay their developers easily.
You can't get 1% interest risk free in a high-interest market, let alone the current one.
If you try really hard you can get 1% a year without taking on risk.
And you can't have any risk if you are going to be manufacturing phones with that money (sorry we don't have enough phones, we bet on Apple and their stock went down 20%).
The grandparent was talking about 1% per month, though. That would equate to (with compounding) a 12.5% annual interest rate, which no remotely safe financial instrument is paying.
What bond has that high of an interest rate? I am seeing 0.3% annual rates for US bonds right now. (And that is for 2 year bonds, not very good for 1-3 month lags)
Even if you only need the money for a year, there is no reason you can't buy 30 year bonds and sell them later. Short term treasury bonds get a much lower price because they are dominated by buyers that are obligated to buy them for some reason (they've even had negative interest rates in the past).
> there is no reason you can't buy 30 year bonds and sell them later.
Except, there are no guarantees the price you get on the sale of those bonds will be the same as the price you initially payed.
The possibilities are you might get your money back, you might make money or you might lose money on that sale.
Edit: In fact as can be seen by the graph below the yield on 30 Year T-Bonds is going up, indicating the price of the bond is falling (as the price moves inversly to the yield).
That's just an indication of their safety. Short-term U.S. Treasuries are being used as a safe bank account by a number of people with money to park who don't trust regular banks, and don't want to expose themselves to the interest-rate risk that long-term bonds bring. This raises demand and pushes down interest rates, sometimes even into the negative range.
If you're an American with, say, $75k to park, there's no reason to put it in a treasury at negative interest, of course: you can just put it in an FDIC-insured bank account. But if you're a Cypriot with $50m to park, buying treasuries looks attractive relative to Eurobonds or Cypriot banks, and continues to look attractive even if prices rise to the point where the interest rate is moderately negative.
But in neither case should you buy a 30-year bond for short-term cash parking, unless you are either hedged against the interest-rate risk, or willing to expose yourself to a bet on the direction interest rates will move. If they move the wrong way, your $100k might be worth $90k next year, which will completely wipe out your 3.5% interest and more.
Those were not bonds, but rather Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS) which are tied to CPI.
The fixed payment on five-year TIPS, known as the real yield, has been pushed below zero because the rise in the CPI is greater than the yield on regular five-year U.S. notes
One of the reasons they went with IndieGoGo vs KickStarter is probably that they know they may not reach $32M. So they'll take what they can (IndieGogo gives you what you make, vs kickstarter that you need to make more then you request in order to get it) and do what they can.
As far as I am concerned they may have just typed in a random number in the millions as people like goals.
While this is possible with IndieGoGo, they selected to only receive funds if the project is fully funded. This is detailed under the "Contribute now" button.
If 40,000 people are willing to fund the initial production going mainstream would be easy. I believe in the video they even said that if enough people were interested they could get more backing.
I think video said if this thing succeeds, then there might be similar future projects. If not, there wont be next edge or similar projects.
"The Ubuntu Edge is an exclusive production run, available only through Indiegogo"
But there is no going mainstream, it is the whole point. This is not the mainstream pc/mobile. Good quote from comment section:
"It's a premier, demonstration platform, not a mass market device." -achiang
I think what they are doing is awesome and comparison with formula 1 is pretty spot on. They are trying to build mobile with new approach, build it as PC.
Except it's a horrible comparison, because an F1 car is orders of magnitude higher in performance than an everyday car. The Edge on the other hand, has a lower resolution screen than the Galaxy S4, a consumer device.
They claim the performance will be amazing, yet don't even specify which CPU/SoC they will be using (only claiming it will be a quad, also available in the Galaxy series).
128gb of storage? Big deal. My Galaxy S3 with a 64gb SD card has that much too.
Cool phone, and I love the smartphone/PC convergence they are striving for - but comparing it to the engineering marvel of an F1 car is a little outlandish.
I do understand why you think this comparison is off, but
if Edge would have magnitudes of better performace(and I mean magnitudes) they would have to develop one for themselvs(meaning cpu/soc, they are already developing their soft). No crowdfunding will ever cover that. So it is choice between reality and dream.
Lower resolution was explained here:
"We also believe the race for ever higher resolution has become a distraction. Beyond 300ppi you’re adding overhead rather than improving display clarity. We think colour, brightness and dynamic range are now the edge of invention so we’ll choose a display for its balance of resolution, dynamic range and colour accuracy."
I think, and this is just an idea that: they can't announce unannounced cpu/soc or they or they don't know(that would be bad)
your s3 has 64gb sd. They are talking about onboard storage.
At the moment biggest onboard is 64gb, there are around 8 highest end phones that have that. This is probably the easiest thing to up if memory prices and size goes down. First 128gb phones should come out around the same time when Edge. Then you will have 128gb onboard+whatever sd you buy extra.
Why am I protective over this thing? Because I am the one who they are making this thing for. I like playing with tech and I would see the benefit for using this portable computer.
..
altough, at the moment it is out of my budget.
EDIT: This does not mean it is all perfect project. There are already some unanswered legitimate questions in comment section.
A little hyperbole never hurt anybody. But they are off by at least one order of magnitude in terms of cost if they're thinking of doing really new things with a mobile device.
Actually, upon reflection, the comparison to F1 is completely spurious. They're not talking about doing any new hardware development; instead, they're looking at slapping commodity hardware in a box. That's doomed.
I agree - and this is what dissuades me from buying one. While the industrial design is indeed cool I'm not convinced that faster phones won't be available at the time of launch; this product has a very significant number of engineering challenges ahead of it, not the least of which is software.
If there is a 2nd- or 3rd-gen Edge I will be very interested, but today's state-of-the-art ARM quad is not enough for the tasks I usually run on my laptop. If it can't replace my laptop, then contributing to this project is just throwing $600 (or $830!) sight-unseen into a development black hole that could be months late.
In these sorts of situations contributors are almost never reimbursed for delays. By the time this launches there will be yet another generation of Intel chips, ARM chips, and flagship Android/iPhone devices. It just doesn't make economic sense.
I appreciate what they are trying to do and I don't know if there's a better way. But it's quite a risk to shell out that much for a toy that may not really be that useful in this iteration.
let me quote:
"In the car industry, Formula 1 provides a commercial testbed for cutting-edge technologies. The Ubuntu Edge project aims to do the same for the mobile phone industry -- to provide a low-volume, high-technology platform, crowdfunded by enthusiasts and mobile computing professionals. A pioneering project that accelerates the adoption of new technologies and drives them down into the mainstream."
It is not for you. If you want good phone, there are plenty out there to choose from.
formula 1 car is impossible to use in everyday life. It has really specific place where it excels. Edge is probably medicore phone and medicore pc, but it is probably really good at being both at the same time.
It is wrong approach to compare it to mobile users.
Edit:
quote from comment section:
"It's a premier, demonstration platform, not a mass market device." -achiang
It's an interesting project (not for me, personally, but hey, let a hundred flowers bloom and all that), but I think that they're overestimating the state of phone hardware commoditization, if they expect that they can pick and choose parts and hit their spec targets in less than a year. That seems insanely ambitious to me.
They should try to get some carriers to put some money on that. They could buy hundreds or thousands at a time, if they want more diversity in their offering.
There aren't much in the way of specs here. The screen will likely be 1024x768 or similar, seeing as how they say that they are shooting for around 300ppi in a 4.5in screen. The battery technology that they say they want is unproven, produced only in sample quantities, and has issues with the electrolyte expanding to 4x it's size (which they say will be fixed via carbon nanotubes, the latest 'magic pixie dust'). I am pretty sure they will have an announcement later on saying that they had to switch battery technologies in order to source what they need. For $800 it's quite expensive. I imagine they could easily just buy a bunch Galaxy S4s and offer that with Ubuntu as an option... that way they wouldn't have to deal with certification and all that jazz. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but seriously people need to think about this before just handing out their money. My bet is one year from now if you had given them your money, there will be better phones out that make this one seem like a joke. Compare what they are offering to the Galaxy S4, the S4 will definitely have a better screen, it's running at 1.9ghz (will 2.1 or whatever is the fastest make much of a difference? probably not). A better battery may be great, but the S4 has great battery life, which will last almost all day, good enough for most people. I'd be surprised if I don't see batteries explode on this device if they do manage to ship with the new technology (and expensive) battery. The ram may be the one reason to purchase the device, but it would be a lot less expensive just to ask any of the vendors on Alibaba to up the ram to 4gb (as long as you are ordering in large quantities).
300ppi at 4.5in would probably be 720p - that's what the First and M4/One mini have at 4.3 in for something like 330 ppi. That would be m y guess anyway.
I'm more concerned with the promise of 4GB ram and 128GB storage. That's going to be very expensive. The highest end phones today cost more and half half or less of that. (I know, things get cheaper, but this isn't orders of 20 million, it's orders of 20,000)
128gb of flash storage is like $150 retail, probably less in bulk. 4gb RAM is not expensive, yeah it's integrated, but the reason why device manufacturers hold back is they're penny pinchers who are looking to maximise profit, and they're also running mobile OS'es that don't need 4gb.
Not only the ram. The 'sapphire screen' and battery are probably going to be the most expensive pieces of the system. I don't think anyone is complaining that their gorilla glass screen is not durable enough. The highest end phones have less ram most likely because of battery life issues. That ram has to be refreshed, and more of it means more drain on the battery. Not to mention that in android phones, they try to fill up the ram as much as possible to avoid accessing the flash storage after booting since that also drains the battery. The consequence may be longer boot times, if Ubuntu does this also.
Here are the specs from the page -- were they added subsequently?
Dual boot Ubuntu mobile OS and Android
Fully integrated Ubuntu desktop PC when docked
Fastest multi-core CPU, 4GB RAM, 128GB storage
4.5in 1,280 x 720 HD sapphire crystal display
8mp low-light rear camera, 2mp front camera
Dual-LTE, dual-band 802.11n Wi-Fi, Bluetooth 4, NFC
GPS, accelerometer, gyro, proximity sensor, compass, barometer
Stereo speakers with HD audio, dual-mic recording, Active Noise Cancellation
MHL connector, 3.5mm jack
Silicon-anode Li-Ion battery
64 x 9 x 124mm
I wonder which will happen first, Google supporting BT4/LE on the phones that already have this built-in, or Canonical getting a phone built from scratch and having BT LE support?
They've reached around $3.2m in their first day, so they're on track, though probably donations will slow down from now on till it nears the end. The price is pretty high, and this is not a mass market device in its current form - it's an interesting strategy to target the high end. Perhaps they see Apple as floundering in years to come, and want to take that slice of the market and work down?
It's interesting that you talk about some kind of installation. Everyone with a desktop PC already has such an installation, and many people with laptops have one too - a screen and keyboard for when they're at home, and a laptop which plugs in there, or can be separated and used independently. Works for me.
So I imagine the target market here is people who use laptops with a screen at home and would be happy with even more convenience and a smaller device to carry around. This probably isn't a realistic convergence device as it is so ambitious, at present it's more dream than reality, but one day we might all work this way.
I find it more attractive to have a hard local store of my data than the alternative of trusting cloud providers with all my data and working from thin clients.
"If we don’t reach our target then we will focus only on commercially available handsets and there will not be an Ubuntu Edge."
That makes so much more sense to me that I'm having a hard time understanding why Canonical would even attempt to design and manufacture their own handset.
For the same reason Microsoft made the Surface and Google has the Nexus devices. "This is how it's done" sets a very strong precedence for OEMs to follow. Canonical can set the bar high right off the bat to avoid being like the first few years of Android phones.
> For the same reason Microsoft made the Surface and Google has the Nexus devices.
The Nexus handsets are basically third party handsets with some input from Google, but primarily engineered and built by the hardware partner (LG, Samsung, etc). It's not really comparable.
Microsoft do engineer and build the Surface themselves, but last time I checked they just took a $900 million loss on it. Hardly great stuff.
You've got to remember that Canonical have openly said that they wish to be the open source version of Apple - and to even exceed them, if possible. So when this philosophy collides with the practical approach of the Nexus series then you have this device.
I think this means that the phone is equipped with antennas for different "LTE/4G" frequencies. This makes the phone work with different carriers throughout the world. The second antenna is for compatibility.
It's unlikely that the phone will spend power activating antennas that are not in use given the carrier/geographic standard, so my best guess is this: No. You will not see double the radiation.
(I could be completely wrong here, though. I'm not a cellular engineer by any standard.)
No, it seems double MIMO antenna or something. There already are multiple LTE bands. Qualcomm's S800 will support 20 different ones, and they are planning for 40 in the future.
I bought it. If nothing this is the kind of innovation which makes me excited for computing and I want to support that.
Best case the phone will arrive just in time to replace my Nexus4. Common case I get a refund. Worst case the thing is a dud, either poor build quality or under-performance.
From a high level Canonical has taken the right decisions to avoid the worst case. Being a high end device there is plenty of margin for a good case. The System on Chip is off the shelf so perforamnce only depends on the software. If Ubuntu is too heavy for mobiles then I can revert to android. The high fund threashhold means the phone will have the volume for factory production.
Before my Nexus 4 I had a N900. The N900 was the closest thing yet to a linux computer in your pocket. I loved it, you could tell engineers developed the N900 as a phone for engineers by engineers. This Ubuntu Edge looks like a true spiritual successor.
Props for mentioning Fairphone! I can't wait to get mine in October.
Ubuntu Edge does look good though, mostly because it should be a viable hybrid Mobile/Desktop replacement. While I won't be supporting it, I do hope it goes ahead.
Does anyone really still want a phone you can plug into a monitor? This would have been a dream product back before broadband and wifi became ubiquitous, and before extra PCs became so cheap.
Nowadays, it seems like a much better design is to have multiple devices with different form factors that can access shared data via a cloud.
(unless this product is meant as an NSA-proof system, but I don't see that it makes a very convincing product for that use case either...)
Oh, absolutely. I'd love to have a phone that I can use as a phone, insert into a "laptop dock" (like what the motorola atrix had) and use as a laptop, and insert into a more traditional docking station (to which I've attached a large monitor, ethernet, etc) so I can use it as a desktop.
I'd much prefer to have a single trusted device than spread my digital life across "a cloud".
Exactly. Even with most of my stuff in the Google cloud, the cognitive overhead of going from my Note 2 to my Nexus 7 to my "real" laptop and (recently) to my Chromebook is annoying. I'd much rather have one device set up with all my stuff that automagically turns into the form factor I want, when I want it.
I don't know much about it but plan 9 had alot of interesting innovations in this field. I think the idea of it was to build a "UNIX out of a lot of little systems, not a system out of a lot of little UNIXes"
Tried it for a while but Android software is pretty awful on a 10in or larger screen. For the size/weight, you get much more power with Windows 7/8 (pus AirDroid and Dropbox etc).
But that doesn't let you run "desktop" software (e.g. LibreOffice, Inkscape/GIMP, a browser with proper keyboard shortcuts, a development environment (!) -- still a much different ball game than mobile apps.
The cloud is cool but your putting your data, and for many people that means their livelyhoods in the hands of strangers.
Personal Cloud is a better option.
I personally would be more than happy to own a single device that I could take with me and still know I had all the computing power I needed, without the bulk of a desktop or even a small laptop.
Monitor and keyboard at home, one at the office, phone in my pocket all backed up and synced in my personal private cloud.
A phone, or better still a tablet, on which I could run Ubuntu dual-screen would be a winner with me. I could have a light tablet for meetings and document-creation and a portable development environment with a portable external monitor.
I'd love that. The biggest problem for me is that I have a number of monitors and laptops that don't support HDMI. If there was a sub $10 adapter I could get for VGA->HDMI<-VGA then it would be a perfect world.
Luckily this is still a year in the future. It is good amount of time for
a)sub $10 adapter to appear
b)you might change your hardware for unrelated purpouse
c)you might change your hardware for this purpouse over the course of the year for monitors that support vga+hdmi(or DVI+cheap adapter)
Yea, what kind of display made since 2005 doesn't support hdmi (note: dvi -> hdmi is really easy and readily available)? Analog video died in 2001, and only persists in corporate America, and it is so horribly outdated broken and crappy I can't fathom wasting development effort to get a vga port or adapter working.
Those are the monitors HP aims at the enterprise. A lot of them have VGA only, and none of them have HDMI.
So in my organization, we have thousands of monitors that would require an adapter at minimum and maybe a couple dozen floating around that were special ordered one-offs that might have HDMI built-in.
It's an idea that might be a little ahead of its time yet, but I think the potential is there for tomorrow's phones to drive every aspect of our digital lives.
The little geek in me that wants to live in the Jetsons' future is going to be pretty disappointed if, 5+ years from now, I'm not unplugging my phone from a dock at home and plugging it in to one at work to meet all my computing needs.
yes, of course I want that, for the reason that accessing shared data via a cloud is ludicrously slow, unreliable, fraught with security concerns, and doesn't bring application state with it.
I "work around" application state to a great extent with Xmarks (lets me open remote tabs) and screen, but it's a kludge compared to always having my main computing device in my pocket, ready to connect to any screen and keyboard to just keep working. Imagine hotels offering HDMI input to TV's + a keyboard so I don't have to use my "small" 17" laptop screen. Or internet cafees where I can "bring my own machine" with all my own applications and data.
I don't see how multiple devices is a "much better design" when we're always carrying one device around with us anyway. It's incredibly wasteful. Devices augmenting it with additional functionality, sure.
The only things holding back the smartphone as "the one" main computing device for most people is performance and capacity. Of course there will always be a need for more powerful machines for some niches, an there'll always be a need for e.g. laptop shells (and for "real" laptops too).
But for an increasing number of users, the power of a smartphone is rapidly exceeding what they need from a laptop or desktop computer, and then it becomes increasingly appealing to springing for a higher capacity smartphone if it can double as our main computer "just" with the addition of a "laptop shell" or screen + keyboard.
Keep in mind the PC desktop and laptop market has stagnated - average prices are low because the typical non-Mac PC user opts for low end models because they no longer see a need for the performance bump of the higher end models.
The performance a typical PC user wants, and the performance possible with mobile technology will soon intersect.
Instead ask: Since everyone's already carrying around a very powerful processor and lots of memory, why should they carry around a second processor and memory just to work on a large screen?
Yes. I will be very happy to carry not only my data (as I do now) but my whole computer in my pocket, plug it into a keyboard and monitor at home and at work, and use the built-in screen (and perhaps a foldable bluetooth keyboard) elsewhere.
I know about the cloud. I distrust the cloud. The cloud is not for me.
Oh, absolutely. I want to carry my data around with me, and access it via whatever the best interface at the moment is -- when I'm driving, when I'm walking around, when I'm at my desk. This phone isn't for me, but I can definitely see the appeal.
Haha oh wow. They're charging hundreds of dollars to add a free OS into a smartphone. And they expect to get 32 million just for the promise. Someone lock these people up before they do some real damage.
I would downvote you if I could. I'm pretty tired of seeing snark like this and thinking how many people get discouraged of trying something new and bold for fear it would be met with an attitude like yours. Piss off.
Except it's not "new and bold", it's literally Ubuntu on a smartphone for far above the market price. Add some marketing buzzwords about how it will revolutionize computing and people start seeing clothes on the emperor.
I don't know if they'll pull off the desktop integration, but meanwhile can you recommend a phone I can put into a dock and work on as a desktop PC. That seems pretty new and bold to me.
I really really hope I'm wrong (because I really believe in Ubuntu's vision), but what I'm gathering from this is that Canonical really has no idea how to make money.
I'm gathering that the handset makers and carriers and VCs laughed them out of the office, so they had to go this route.
I would have expected to read something like, the phone is an enhanced version of x/y/z with these features, we got a great deal from (manufacturer), but we need 50,000 pre-orders to proceed.
I guess they just didn't find investors. Jolla managed to do it because they have expertise and accumulated knowledge in the field. Canonical don't have that.
I didn't follow Mozilla closely on this, but I'm not sure if they design their own hardware. As far as I know they are using existing one from partners (correct me if I'm wrong). I.e. they took a few shortcuts to make things easier for them.
Wrong guess I'm afraid. We (Canonical) haven't announced any hardware or network partners for a general market launch.
Ubuntu Edge isn't aimed at the mass market. It's a special limited edition hardware platform which accelerates lots of interesting hardware technology combined with the Ubuntu phone. So it's designed for developers or technology enthusiasts who really value cutting edge innovation.
Then it's not so surprising, that going with extra high end non common device before releasing one available for common users didn't attract investors. It looks very risky.
Canonical had to start with practical and common device, before going into super experimental one. And with resources from the first, go for more experiments.
I think you need to watch the video. It definitely sounds like they've had talks with manufacturers and been heavily criticized for believing that the industry is ready for this kind of convergent device. As Mark said, manufacturers need proof of this proposition.
It sounds to me like Mark has said, "Fine then, we'll go to our fans with the ideal device and see if the market responds. If they do, we're right and you can help us make these. If they don't, we're wrong and you can help us make more realistic devices."
Just can't help thinking the pitch is a little half-assed, for an Ubuntu. The crowdfunding model is for little guys who are doing amazing things and can't get investment and distribution. It's a sign of weakness when an established player can't get those things. Ubuntu was featured by Dell but isn't anymore. Meanwhile Chromebook seems to have found a niche. You have to keep the users and OEMs on board and execute the stuff that's in your wheelhouse.
You're mixing up the objective of putting Ubuntu onto a mass-market phone with a special platform aimed at developers and technology enthusiasts. We (Canonical) have extensive experience working with major technology companies in the PC market. But, Ubuntu Edge isn't aimed at that area - it's about getting great technology into the hands of power-users and developers as early as possible.
If people care about mobile Linux, they care about this issue (it's the worst issue in the industry). If people don't care, they wouldn't care about this device either. There are tons of Android clones already for them to use.
What would be so bad about rebuilding Ubuntu on top of Bionic, so there's only one libc, the one required by the GPU drivers, and the lighter one to boot? If Bionic is good enough for FIrefox and Chrome on Android, then surely it's good enough for anything on a mobile device.
Lot's of stuff - talk to Collabora developers who attempted to rebuild some common Linux middleware atop of bionic. It's very difficult, painful and upstream bionic has no interest to cooperate to help this process. So I conclude that it's a pointless time wasting. Mobile Linuxes should continue to use glibc and working on getting the drivers. Libhybris is a good tool that helps deployment until normal drivers will become more common. TL;DR - bionic is not good enough to replace glibc.
Maybe [1], but then Canonical is aiming at getting Ubuntu into as many phones as possible, and it working with the Android stack is helping in achieving this goal.
[1] On the other hand what would be a benefit of investing into getting drivers work with glibc, other than running your classic Linux distribution?
On the other hand what would be a benefit of investing into getting drivers work with glibc
To run without any translation layers and bionic quirks. That's the main benefit. When the system is using glibc (like Sailfish and Ubuntu do), and drivers aren't, the only way is to translate it like libhybris does. It's a crutch at best and not ideal. It can perform well, but it's still not direct.
But I didn't see any comparative benchmarks published so far. Translation cost might be not critical (i.e. tolerable), but it's still a cost and native approach should be always better.
32 million dollars? 830$ for a device, when high end MTK based phones cost max 300 (Zopo, THL, etc.) on the European market, and less than that in China?
They haven't got a clue... Why don't they start making working ROMs for existing phones. If they targeted a few existing high end phones and the ubiquitous and cheap MT6589 models (quad core, many with full HD screens) they might have a better chance of starting to spread their OS and intriguing users and developers.
Pretty ambitious. Presumably they are not going to build the phone, they will do like Google and Apple and Microsoft did and find someone who is already building phones, to build them a bespoke phone. One then wonders how many units you have to commit to buying for LG to spin a variant of the Nexus 4 for you. Certainly its more than 100K phones, which gets you into the 'best' price for components (some vendors of phone parts (like some of the flash chips) won't talk to you unless you order 100K pieces).
Clearly there is a value proposition to having knowledge about all the bits in the phone, but as I discovered with the Android phones, working at Google, there are some bits which are protected in a variety of ways (basically most of the radios in phones these days are all software and that blob (the stuff that makes the radio 'work') is strictly licensed. It was, for me at least, an unexpected additional cost for the radio stuff. (I imagine that business model started with soft modems where the line access chips were $1 and the code to turn them into a 56Kbit modem was another $9 each).
Regardless of outcome, this will join a number of attempts at making a Linux phone. I wonder if anyone has collected all of the attempts into a single space.
Using crowdfunding wastes a huge part of the raised money on taxes. It looks like a sign of Canonical not being able to find investors. Jolla for example did, and I take it as a sign of maturity and expertise in the field.
Seriously, how exactly does crowdfunding 'waste' more money than buying something - you have to pay taxes of everything you buy anyway. You can at best argue that it's a 'waste' if we don't hit the target and no phone is produced.
The reality is that the Phone industry isn't incentivised to build products like Ubuntu Edge. It's a limited run, high-end product rather than mass-volume. In that context coming up with interesting ideas and then testing whether there's interest with crowdfunding is completely appropriate.
Seriously, how exactly does crowdfunding 'waste' more money than buying something - you have to pay taxes of everything you buy anyway.
Unless I misunderstood something, crowdfunding (in current form) has low effective outcome, since it's taxed as presales (which axes the raised funds significantly). I think it's a bit weird, since in essence this is fundraising, and not presales, but this how it works for some reason. Investment doesn't work the same way, and the input can be used for the intended purpose much more effectively.
I would like to like this, but there are some red flags: It seems like they are engineering their own high-end hardware. Are there really no off-the-shelf platforms for this? No ODMs from which they could order 10k units, including the GPU driver license?
Supposing they could get 10k units for $500 each, that means they could ask for $1M or $2m and be far more certain of hitting their goal. Why not do that?
It seems as if they are trying to fund development of Ubuntu for phones on the back of this hardware project. Or, unlike Jolla and Tizen and Firefox OS they lack launch partners, so they are doing a "Microsoft Surface." Maybe the $900M write-down of Surface hardware made them think $32M is a doddle.
Ubuntu should run nicely on Surface RT hardware... They could make an offer.
This was my thinking. The whole time through that video I was wondering why they don't just buy a couple thousand Nexus 4s to load up with their custom build and re-sell. If they're planning to put Ubuntu on other manufacturers hardware, the official Google supported phone sounds like a pretty good place to start, and the speed at which those phones sell would be a great way to test the interest in their new platform. Hell, I'd buy it even at a $100 markup ($400), I'd buy it with little hesitation just to get some hands on time with the OS.
Impulse buying a $600 handset that won't arrive for a year (if they hit deadlines, which doesn't happen), is asking for far too much trust.
Putting it on Surface RT hardware would be a dream. I don't like Unity for my desktop, but if I was looking for a 10" tablet I'd be all over it.
Reselling someone else's developer phone from last year isn't exactly the marketing message we're going for. Edge is meant to be a premium product, not just another "me too".
Unrelated: if you simply want to test drive Ubuntu for Phones, it's already been ported to 40+ platforms.
I think everyone understands what Canonical is trying to do. They just question whether it's a good idea. It's very difficult to make the best phone on the first try. It adds a lot of project risk to Ubuntu for mobile devices to try.
On top of that, if you don't have OEM launch partners for phones, maybe you shouldn't be doing phones. If the carriers really want you, they will make the channel commitments that the OEMs need to green-light a phone.
All that I can find at the moment is a "developer preview" which I tried on my Nexus 7 not long ago and found it to be definitely not ready for prime time. Presumably, you would be releasing a consumer ready version of the OS with these Nexus 4s (or whatever phone from a proven manufacturer). I'm reluctant to flash a "developer preview" on my every day phone.
> Are there really no off-the-shelf platforms for this?
From what I gather, it seems the entire purpose of this 'edge' project is a hardware one, not a software one. They're trying to gather the 'latest and greatest' hardware and make a phone out of it, which would by definition, not be found in an existing handset. I'm sure they'll try to push for their mobile os regardless of whether this fails or not, as it seems almost orthogonal to their mobile os efforts. Once they evaluate how feasible this 'cutting edge' handset idea is, I'm sure they'll continue to find devices to slap ubuntu touch on. But if they've had this 'premium phone' idea kicking around for a while, why not? This isn't an either/or scenario.
It will be interesting to find out how many real hardware people have had input on this. As an example, the battery is going to be "silicon-anode" - I didn't even know that was a thing, and Google only turns up weeks/months old articles on how researchers are trying to make them out of rice. Yet they're going to stick it in a phone.
If each hardware choice has been made like that, there's a huge risk with the project. If the battery doesn't come up to snuff mAh-wise, how long will that 4G RAM / beautiful screen / 128Gb SSD actually last day-to-day, including phone calls?
There doesn't really seem to be much information about the people doing the hardware, and why they think they can stuff so much new stuff into a small package in the space of a few months.
Also, is the battery removable? I won't be getting one (married to Verizon at this point) but a non-removable battery would be a second deal breaker for me.
They claim to have a prototype factory producing 500 phones worth of battery material per day. Not the scale Samsung needs but enough for a one off phone run.
Also because they want a phone that is also suitable to be someones main computing device. So if they can get smartphone hardware makers a reason to push into higher spec'ed devices by demonstrating a market and providing a blueprint, that'd be a big win for them as it creates a bigger need for Ubuntu vs. "just" Android or alternatives.
They have to average $42K an hour for the next month for this to work. That realistically means they need to pull in a few million in the first few days.
I wonder how many of us are going to watch the site for a few days, track the average hourly funding rate, then decide if we want to commit based on the likelihood of the round being successful? Sort of Victor Vroom outcome motivation.
That may or may not be true. Indiegogo (unlike Kickstarter) offers a flexible funding option which lets fundraises keep what they raise, regardless of whether or not they meet their goal.
[EDIT] - Never mind, just saw the fixed funding underneath the fundraising target :)
The $32 million fundraising goal might seem overly ambitious, but it's actually more realistic than it appears at first glance, because at $600+ per unit the campaign needs only around 50,000 buyers worldwide to be successful -- or a bit over 2% of Ubuntu's enthusiastic user base, which was estimated to be greater than 20 million in 2011.[1]
PS. I just ordered one, as I LOVE the idea of an unlocked phone designed and built from the ground up by Canonical specifically for Ubuntu users, with minimal interference from wireless carriers.
--
Update: When I posted this comment, the total raised was under $50,000. Less than an hour later, it had risen to over half a million dollars.
I've ordered one too, because I really like the sound of a Phone OS based on Ubuntu, not controlled by the likes of Google and Apple, and with a UI based on HTML. The proposed UI and demo apps look nice, I like the idea of losing the chrome as well:
It's going up quite fast, from 167k to 198k as I finish writing this, but I'm not sure if they'll make their target, just because the phone and OS are such an unknown quantity. I hope they will - and if Pebble can raise $10 Million, then they do have a chance, even if it is a slim one.
The UI is not based on HTML, it's QML. It's a GUI declaration language similar to XAML from MS. The whole QML described UI is an accelerated OpenGL scene backed by Qt technology so the performance should be much higher than that of HTML5.
When I last read about Ubuntu Phone, they were offering two choices for UI, QML, and HTML widgets, but perhaps QML is their preferred option? If so that's a shame but not a huge issue for me. All these XML markup languages for views (xib, XAML, QML) offer very little over html IMHO and end up tying you in to one set of tools provided by the vendor. I'd rather they just focussed on improving the OpenGL backed performance of webkit animations to bring it up to scratch instead.
QML isn't XML-based. It's synxtax is compatible with ECMAScript and it allows embedding ECMAScript expressions and code (but it's style is generally declarative with procedural code discouraged).
And it has a lot to offer over HTML. It has a better layout model for one, sane integration of concepts like animated property transitions and behaviors, makes it far easier to put custom objects backed by native code into the scene, and many other advantages. A lot of these things aren't possible declaratively in HTML, and HTML isn't set up to be extensible enough as a language so you could make up for it yourself. Yes, you can jam everything into a HTML document somehow, but that doesn't mean it's always a pleasant way to go, or that HTML is the peak of UI technology.
Thanks for the correction, I was thinking of xib, XAML, Activities etc. haven't used QML, though I have used Qt, a while ago now. One thing I do think HTML got right is to separate content and code, so putting my UI markup into a js-like format which potentially mixes in code is even less appealing :)
Yes, you can jam everything into a HTML document somehow, but that doesn't mean it's always a pleasant way to go, or that HTML is the peak of UI technology.
While there's a lot wrong with HTML, and I agree there's much to be improved in its layout model, learning and keeping in our head a new layout model just to place some buttons and UI controls on a page every time we switch platforms is painful, and leads to fragmentation and lock-in where people choose a platform and stick with it, because they've had to invest so much time learning those platform specific tools. I think that's a shame and it's not a pain I look forward to when moving platforms. Depends on your focus I suppose - if you plan on using one platform exclusively or using Qt everywhere, it won't bother you.
From my perspective doing work for clients on content-heavy apps, often with web integration, there's an awful lot of content already in html, it provides good control over text styling (typically far better than native equivalents), and it means content is portable between the web and apps, so for those pragmatic reasons I find HTML more appealing for presenting content, even for many UI controls.
For example if I have an Android app, an iOS app, and an Ubuntu Phone app, I have 3 different platforms to manage, each with their idiosyncrasies, differing features, layout language, and blessed platform language, and then I have a load of content which I have to let users generate, manage and get into apps on each platform, using web tools to do so is significantly less painful.
It's not a huge deal as you can obviously use webviews and frame html content with native controls for each platform, but I wish Ubuntu had taken a step towards the web instead with the phones rather than focussing on desktop technologies. I see why they'd want to tie it in with what they're doing on the desktop though. Sorry for the thread hijack!
Qt just released 5.1, which has prelimiary ios and Android support. By the end of the year, you will be able to write a Qt application, and use a QML ui. You can even use one single UI across all devices, where the UI dynamically adds or substracts elements depending on screen size. IE, responsive design for applications.
It is pretty close to write once, run anywhere. The only downside is if your app is the first qt app installed on an ios / android device, it forces a download of the shared libraries which are quite large. You also have to build the applications against individual platforms, since you are using C++, and the finished binary is a native application that uses the qt libraries to launch the qml engine and v8 for the javascript parts.
One experiment I am anxious to see come to fruition in the qt space is the KDE project to get qml apps running in the browser : https://projects.kde.org/projects/playground/www/qmlweb. Since QML is inherently javascript, a web app could only use javascript / qml to create a restrcited sandbox (or nacl / other browser equivalent for the c++ parts) and the entirety of qtquick is designed around high latency elements, so it can support network transport.
> The only downside is if your app is the first qt app installed on an ios / android device, it forces a download of the shared libraries which are quite large.
How does this get around sandboxing on iOS? My fuzzy understanding is that components would need to be downloaded for each app independently. And is there a reason those shared libraries can't be bundled?
No idea, never tried it. A cursory browsing of qt documentation suggests it can't, and it also can't use qtquick2, which is where qml becomes really useful (which is also when it starts using v8).
On iOS at least dynamic libraries are not allowed outside those Apple provides, so I'm not sure how that would work. I imagine they'll have to compile in the Qt runtime on iOS at least. I'll be interested to see their efforts in this space, but Qt everywhere is not particularly attractive to me, nor is working in C++ or javascript with qml.
I do wish these platforms were a little more agnostic to the technology used in their API, and had simple C bindings anyone could write glue code for to use their favourite language. Learning yet another markup language and using C++ in order to create apps doesn't really appeal. Whatever the platform insists on as glue is what we'll have to use though, as usual. Personally I'm going to look into the webapp support in Ubuntu Phone to see if it supports local web apps, and hope that I can use that glue to get at any device state that I need to access.
As to qml in the browser, I'd really rather have web apps on the desktop than start writing websites in qml, I'd be very surprised if that catches on.
I recently made a toy project with QML. It was my first Qt experience and I think I'll be using QML for just about any GUI I want to create in the future, it's a really clean and nice way of working.
We recognize HTML5 as a core Internet technology often used to develop cross-platform apps. As such, the Ubuntu toolkit offers the flexibility to support HTML5 too. It’s your choice to decide whether you want to go native with QML and the best Ubuntu integration or HTML5 and less integration via Unity webapps."
This is a bit counter-intuitive, I think, because although Ubuntu's mission is "for the people", they target high-end smartphones instead of low-end smartphones. So in relatively poor countries those Ubuntu phone won't spread that much, while FirefoxOS seems to be spreading there quite fast.
That's a good point, and I'm sure Canonical will do that in the future, too, but then they'll only be able to tout Ubuntu Touch's features and apps, not of the "full Ubuntu". The full Ubuntu needs the kind of hardware the Edge will have to get decent performance when used in PC mode. If they made it low-end, they could only use Ubuntu Touch in there, and that suffers from the same problem as FF OS - no native apps, just web apps.
After they build this "halo" device, they will be able to get some apps for Ubuntu Touch, and then build low-end phones. Ubuntu Edge is for people who want both a smartphone and a "PC", all in one (if you already have an extra monitor).
> suffers from the same problem as FF OS - no native apps, just web apps
In my opinion, this is one of the main features of FirefoxOS: Every app has to build on open (web) standards. No vendor lock-in, no trying to impose proprietary native APIs on the app developers.
The market would be a lot more efficient of all smartphone OS were forced to push their great features by improving and extending open standards instead of locking all interesting stuff into their proprietary so-called "native" [1] APIs.
[1] For instance, is WebGL any less "native" than other 3D APIs just because it is accessible from the JavaScript VM instead of say, some Java VM?
> No vendor lock-in, no trying to impose proprietary native APIs on the app developers.
I don't think that it's fair to characterize an OS built on Free Software as "vendor lock-in", or as the Ubuntu Touch API and implementation (which is Free Software) as a "proprietary native API".
I love the Linux Free Software ecosystem. There are multiple vendors (eg. Debian, Red Hat, Suse) and they all support multiple "proprietary native APIs" that happen to all be the same. My Qt application written on Ubuntu will run on Suse, as will my GTK one, as will my wxWidgets one. IMHO the breadth and quality available in distribution repositories far surpasses what is available in (say) Android's app store, or available in HTML5 "apps" today. Sure - there is plenty of bad software there, too. But there's good Free Software available for practically every task. Not so for the current phone app ecosystems.
Ubuntu may be the first to bring this ecosystem to the smartphone, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the only vendor for this ecosystem in the long run.
Ubuntu is bringing the Free Software ecosystem to the smartphone, and it's all under licensing that protects the FSF's four freedoms [edit: I suppose it's not all GPL, but what new code is being written is. That's as close as we can reasonably get, I think]. That's good enough for me. No proprietary APIs or lock-ins here. Even HTML5 apps don't compare, since they are typically not Affero GPL licenced.
Although binary-only proprietary apps will be permitted, AIUI, they are permitted in every other ecosystem as well. But I'll be cheering on the Free Software apps, and Ubuntu's smartphone seems to be the best way for them to become the norm (there are some great Free Software apps available on Android, but they are not the norm).
From the page I can conclude the hardware is non-existent (although possible). For now it is purely a wishlist of what they 'want' to offer. Hardware is actually also a large part of the development time of a phone and software, like drivers need to be optimized for the experience. Even if they have used development boards or reference designs for the current bring-up, it would still need hardware verification and a lengthy quality assurance process. Especially related to a phone device, this means certification. I wish them a lot of luck... but it would not amaze me if it results in a vaporware project.
i have to wonder how many ubuntu users are using ubuntu simply for the cost of owning it ($0). If that group is high, which i think it is, it may imply that a lot of those same users, might not want to put money into a project. Speculation.
Do you have any basis for thinking that? I ask because my perception is that the cost of OS is effectively zero for almost all computer users: Windows or Mac OS comes free* with the computer.
* Free and bundled together at a sharply discounted cost (or the cost of R&D in Apple's case) to the manufacturer aren't exactly the same, but that's not apparent to the purchaser.
The cost of OS is zero when acquiring a new computer through a retail outlet, and zero only for Linux users when acquiring computers through donations, salvage, etc.
In my experience donated/salvaged/second hand PCs usually come with an OEM licence (also true for second hand macs).
Perhaps that's different in the US?
And while you theoretically pay for the Windows licence that come with a new machine a) most people aren't aware of that, and b) aren't aware that you can get that money back if don't use it.
I believe there are some strong anti-trust arguments for it to be possible to pay for only the OS you want to buy, not the one the manufacturer bundles with your device?
Granted there's still a de-facto monopoly on paid for desktop operating systems for general x86 pcs -- but does that really mean that we should try to keep it that way?
That's not how systems are designed and built. You're not paying for the OS, you're buying an integrated product that wouldn't exist unless it was designed and manufactured for Windows.
On every[0] Humble Bundle so far, the highest average donations come from Linux users.
On some, they've even donated the same amount or more in total dollars compared to OS X users - ie, Linux users have been more profitable even though they have a much smaller market share.
In short, Linux users are very profitable (per-user).
[0] I can't confirm that it's 100%, but it's been every Humble Bundle I've participated in (a lot), which I think is a large enough sample size for the purposes of this statement.
When you use a lot of FOSS, I think (at least for myself) I tend to pick my spots to get closed-source, for-cost software. If it'll run well on my platform, and I like the organization developing it, it feels more like... monetary collaboration, say, than simply buying another thing. If you're used to buying all your software, paying the minimum might look like just the (perfectly reasonable) cheapest way to get it?
Not to suggest that there actually IS any difference between the two groups when they pay - I just feel like more a good-deed-doing partner when I voluntarily pay more for something like humble bundle, that's all. It's silly and false, but it's definitely a feeling.
Or developers appreciate the effort it takes to program something, and want to break away from the 99c per app approach and want to make a more fair payment?
My gut feeling is that someone running Linux as their desktop OS has had to opt in; this means that the pool of potential desktop Linux game purchasers is more likely to be made up of people who are motivated by Linux itself; and that these people are thus more likely to be people who are invested in the success of Linux as an environment.
I'm not au courant with Linux in any of its various forms, so my assumptions above could be wildly wrong, of course.
> ... these people are thus more likely to be people who are invested in the success of Linux as an environment.
I think that you are correct -- at least in part.
I have zero desire to play games but I have purchased many of the Humble Bundles, for example, simply to "support the cause" and encourage other vendors to also consider Linux as a viable platform. I usually give away whatever it is that I've bought.
I think this is partly caused by the lack of offering. For instance: I'm throwing a lot of money at Steam and Valve for the games that are available there because it is one of the very few vendors that has native games for my platform.
A man in a desert will also pay a lot more for a glass of water.
Your comment isn't really as relevant as you think it is. It would suggest Linux would be a highly lucrative platform to target for games, however the more normal it becomes to port games to Linux the less likely people would be to pay that price. This would happen much faster than you would think too.
Ubuntu is a very reasonable average joe OS. It is actually really crappy for gaming - when I was using Ubuntu at the Unity switch around 10.04, there were tons of absurd full screen and tearing bugs in games. Even now that most of that is fixed, Unity/compiz is still vastly outperformed by everything else when running full screen opengl apps. On Gnome / KDE I never encountered those.
I'd encourage you to try it again. I'm running Ubuntu 12.04 on my Dell XPS 13 (Sputnik Edition of course) - and I have no problems with playing Steam games.
I havn't really had any problems playing any game that works on *NIX so far - not that there's all that many.. but still.
I switched to Arch a long while ago. I also prefer the KDE app suite, systemd, and pacman. I still like where Ubuntu is going, but KDE just has feature density I like. I just put relatives on Opensuse because tumbleweed is really solid.
I value that Canonical can bring people to *nix, but I like my customization and a lot of the magic that KDE can pull off. Also, I love writing QML + C++, though with Ubuntu transitioning to be qt focused I could get that anywhere.
I hope this means, more than anything, the year of qt is 2014, because I'd really like to get employed working in qml / qt projects.
I just played Euro Truck Simulator 2 in Ubuntu 13.04 this morning. With the latest update it runs very nice. Full screen, no tearing. It has less FPS than in Windows, but that's expected for this particular game. Using an empty Openbox desktop to run it made no difference, the performance issues are not because Unity, but because of the game engine. I'm only working in moving my savegame from Windows to Ubuntu.
On the other hand, Portal and Half Life 2 run PERFECT in Ubuntu. Just as fast and pretty if not faster than in Windows 7. I'm waiting for Portal 2, as that's one game I have not managed to finish in any platform yet. They also support virtual desktops, so I can ctrl-alt-arrow them away in an instant if my GF needs something from me.
If you are in a country, where people can't afford MS products, then they usually don't give two damns about legal issues(because there are none). All hail the pirates, because pirating is the norm.
Source: From country where pirated windows used to be norm. Still is in ethical standpoint. Only OS bundled with computers has changed that.
I don't use Ubuntu because I'm cheap, I use it because it's the best tool for the job. I think in general Ubuntu users are going to be developers(read have expendable income to spend on gadgets). I think making a play for the high end is the smart move, create a device everyone wants and aspires to own and they will sell themselves. Also if your main market is developers(as I'm assuming it is for the Edge) then you need to blow them away with a beautifully designed high end device to get them to buy it and then start developing the app ecosystem.
One of the things that's interesting about the phone industry is that in general there's no equivalent of the special tech-focused PC platforms. So Ubuntu Edge is a way to unlock both a new software platform (Ubuntu phone) but also to bring forward a set of hardware technologies that won't be in the mainstream for a while.
It's a really high target caused by how expensive these platforms are to manufacture. But if we can get enough interest it will allow us to bring a great new phone to market!
ps I work for Canonical so should be considered a bit biased ;-)
Thanks for doing this campaign! It takes courage to post a goal like that.
I'd much rather give you $600 than pay AT&T and others for the "privilege" of an unlocked phone. I'm happy to have gotten my pledge in and look forward to many exciting updates :)
You're not paying that much for the "privilege" of an unlocked phone, it's more when you pay any less than that you're sharing thew phone cost with AT&T and locking you into the network is their side of the bargain.
Do you think I'll be able to get one of these phones after the campaign is done? I can't do $630 right now (IndieGogo is debit-immediately, rather than Kickstarter's debit-when-successful).
Canonical is still working with networks and carriers to provide some mid-range as well as high-end smartphones. These will be mass produced and should be cheaper.
The Indiegogo campaign is just a sideline, not the core strategy.
>but also to bring forward a set of hardware technologies that won't be in the mainstream for a while.
Can you elaborate on this? I'm not seeing anything on the Indiegogo page that isn't more or less on track to be available in phones next year, except for perhaps the sapphire.
They seem to aim for the high end, but on the other hand it seems still difficult to provide all-around desktop platform without Intel/AMD instruction set.
But if it is ARM and it still works, then it would still be a nice office platform.
"Although our core business is software for PCs and the cloud, we know the phone industry pretty well too."
"We’ve scoured the research labs of the biggest companies and most exciting startups for the latest and greatest mobile technologies to specify the first-generation Edge."
Do the people involved actually have hardware experience? That's not clear to me, and the second passage gives the impression of treating a phone as a collection of parts.
I imagine they'll contract out the manufacture - they'll be collaborating with a manufacturer who makes phones presumably - they say the manufacturer is in Taiwan, but don't specify who.
The features they list are pretty standard on a high-end smartphone for next year, though perhaps not usually seen together.
I think you'll find that, with due respect, this will kick an iPhone 5's ass around the neighbourhood and back by the time it's released (pending funding success). Not least because it will have better specifications.
I think this is excellent marketing, if they get funded, they will prove that there is a market for this and it will make news for being the biggest crowd funded campaign ever. It will be all over the news and even people who have never heard of ubuntu will take a notice.
What I want is a hub device along the lines of a Huawei Mifi device that will share a 4g connection with numerous other devices using a low power hardware and software stack, perhaps the latest Bluetooth.
Then I want my phone to be less powerful, to run most apps on the cloud and generally do little more than render things prettily.
I want camera lenses, display surfaces, input devices (keyboard, pen/stylus, augmented reality glasses, headsets, etc) to all mesh together, sharing bandwidth for intra-device communication... and ultimately all using the hub for communication.
I no longer want large and ever more powerful and feature rich phones or computers, I want to smash things up and have a choice of small bits that each do one thing very well.
Basically Star Trek communication device and then a lot of peripherals.
This is what the market will produce, eventually, after it has tried everything else, but especially everything that acts to lock consumers into long-term deals with the 2.5 remaining wireless carriers.
(Actually if this constellation of devices is mesh-like enough in architecture, the 4g modem won't be particularly special either: you'll keep it in your pocket, never look at it, and it will only be used [automatically, seamlessly] when wifi or its successors aren't available.)
This was a strange post for me... just in the voting history.
It was upvoted like crazy, then downvoted like crazy, then upvoted again, and downvoted again.
It's come out very neutral, barely +1 or 0 now, but at the same time it's the most downvoted post I've ever made.
What is so objectionable about the post that merited the quantity of downvotes? And were the upvotes because other people agreed with the idea and also want this?
"For a phone to run a full desktop OS, it must have the raw power of a PC. We’ll choose the fastest available multi-core processor, at least 4GB of RAM and a massive 128GB of storage"
I would love to be wrong but I'm not buying the promise of a (real world functioning) PC on a phone. ARM based chips are 1 order of magnitude slower than a desktop x86 counterpart, currently there is no such processor to perform as desktop. Maybe they are going the intel road, anyway the indiegogo pitch sounds more like wishful thinking than a real plan.
My team dogfoods Ubuntu for Android every single day on the Nexus 4, and I'll say that it's performant enough to be a daily driver as a desktop replacement.
Edge has 4GB of RAM planned, and will run even better than the N4.
hows the camera for you? I use the n4 with android and the camera digital blur / tearing is pretty annoying. did you get around that or not use the camera much?
Maemo (full-fledged Debian-based mobile distro, now dead, thanks Elop) user here.
Is Ubuntu Phone really running a full-fledged desktop-as-we-know-it GNU/Linux-derived distro? Because, after I heard about bionic+libhybris stuff and some chroot kludges I start highly doubt it. It's as "Ubuntu desktop" as chrooted Ubuntu install on Android, except for more optimized (compared to VNC-to-localhost, huh) video pipeline.
My perception is that it's neither typical-GNU neither Android but something partially (in)compatible to both.
Macbook Airs aren't as powerful as desktop Mac Pros, but they offer a great convenience to the owners. It's "good enough" for most things. I see the Ubuntu Edge as a similar device.
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[ 6.1 ms ] story [ 467 ms ] threadWorse, I just don't even get the use case. If I have to dock it with stuff to make it work, that means I need some kind of installation. Spending more money just so I can carry my PC around instead of having at home on a desk - hm, really not sure about that. People who use their mobile as a primary device tend not to have any sort of desktop, and I don't really get the impression they miss it that much.
1: Nobody is actually charged for supporting the project
2: Other interested parties (phone manufacturers and carriers) will see that there is demand for a phone that doesn't even exist yet. These interested parties might consider reaching this market to differentiate from the current phone OS leaders.
3: Canonical still gets to see their OS in smartphones.
Maybe I'm reaching at straws. I do believe them when they say that manufacturing at scale is expensive.
I find it a bit baffling. I refuse to believe Canonical want to enter the hardware market, but maybe there is a Nexus-like role for this hardware in terms of getting the ODMs to up their game. But, as a way of testing the market, I don't understand it. The FirefoxOS approach is much more appropriate, tbh, and if anything they need volume (which is going to come from the lower end of the market) not quality.
I don't know, from all the design hints Canonical's been dropping in the last few years, it seems like they really are trying to place themselves as direct competitors to apple, however naive/overambitious that may sound. So a play for hardware wouldn't surprise me that much. I think this stunt would make much less sense if it were purely to advance an android/firefox-style mobile os strategy.
It doesn't sound to inspiring in the long term though.
Isn't that what the iphone inadvertently did anyway though? If Edge succeeds, the logical consequence would be that other manufacturers would start to pay attention in one form or another, Canonical just seems to be upfront about the fact and is trying to presumably leverage it somehow.
Apple's strategy is based around ios exclusivity on a limited set of 'high-end' devices though, so it's hard to predict what exactly Canonical is planning for after the Edge succeeds/fails. I'm fairly certain Shuttleworth is heavily inspired by the Apple playbook, but their hints at android-like distribution are admittedly somewhat confusing. It's almost like they want to do both modes of attack, but I'm not sure how that would work (nor how competing directly against android would succeed either for that matter). Only time will tell.
Personally, I find the sheer fact that they're actually Open and trying something new to be quite inspiring on it's own. Long-term? That's anyone's guess, but I wouldn't exactly bet against them at this point, that's for sure.
Maybe Ubuntu can pull this off.
If I had not very recently bought a high end smartphone I'd chip in. I might chip in anyway.
"If you paid with your debit card or credit card, your payment is refunded to that card."
I do appreciate you pointing this difference out though, because it does mean that folks will have $600 (or $830) tied up in this from day 1 and not from day 31.
The vast majority of the $32M goes simply to manufacturing. The remainder covers taxes, fees, shipping, certification, and returns.
It does not cover the cost of the development team's time.
Assuming you can get 1 % interest per month on the 32,000,000 before paying it out, that is still 320k. They can hold it for 2-3 months and pay their developers easily.
If you try really hard you can get 1% a year without taking on risk.
And you can't have any risk if you are going to be manufacturing phones with that money (sorry we don't have enough phones, we bet on Apple and their stock went down 20%).
Except, there are no guarantees the price you get on the sale of those bonds will be the same as the price you initially payed.
The possibilities are you might get your money back, you might make money or you might lose money on that sale.
Edit: In fact as can be seen by the graph below the yield on 30 Year T-Bonds is going up, indicating the price of the bond is falling (as the price moves inversly to the yield).
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/bond/30_year
NOTE: See the 6m curve from link above
If you're an American with, say, $75k to park, there's no reason to put it in a treasury at negative interest, of course: you can just put it in an FDIC-insured bank account. But if you're a Cypriot with $50m to park, buying treasuries looks attractive relative to Eurobonds or Cypriot banks, and continues to look attractive even if prices rise to the point where the interest rate is moderately negative.
But in neither case should you buy a 30-year bond for short-term cash parking, unless you are either hedged against the interest-rate risk, or willing to expose yourself to a bet on the direction interest rates will move. If they move the wrong way, your $100k might be worth $90k next year, which will completely wipe out your 3.5% interest and more.
Those were not bonds, but rather Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS) which are tied to CPI.
The fixed payment on five-year TIPS, known as the real yield, has been pushed below zero because the rise in the CPI is greater than the yield on regular five-year U.S. notes
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-25/treasury-draws-nega...
Why they were negative is because they are tied to CPI and the CPI was higher than the interest on similar short term bonds.
So provided the CPI continues to rise, these TPS securities (which are tied to CPI) will end up paying more return than similar short term bonds.
In other words the market was betting the CPI would continue to rise while short term interest rates would remain low.
As far as I am concerned they may have just typed in a random number in the millions as people like goals.
This is for selling the whole production series.
It is only around 40 000 phones. Most phones sell at least in millions.
"The Ubuntu Edge is an exclusive production run, available only through Indiegogo"
But there is no going mainstream, it is the whole point. This is not the mainstream pc/mobile. Good quote from comment section:
"It's a premier, demonstration platform, not a mass market device." -achiang
I think what they are doing is awesome and comparison with formula 1 is pretty spot on. They are trying to build mobile with new approach, build it as PC.
They claim the performance will be amazing, yet don't even specify which CPU/SoC they will be using (only claiming it will be a quad, also available in the Galaxy series).
128gb of storage? Big deal. My Galaxy S3 with a 64gb SD card has that much too.
Cool phone, and I love the smartphone/PC convergence they are striving for - but comparing it to the engineering marvel of an F1 car is a little outlandish.
if Edge would have magnitudes of better performace(and I mean magnitudes) they would have to develop one for themselvs(meaning cpu/soc, they are already developing their soft). No crowdfunding will ever cover that. So it is choice between reality and dream.
Lower resolution was explained here:
"We also believe the race for ever higher resolution has become a distraction. Beyond 300ppi you’re adding overhead rather than improving display clarity. We think colour, brightness and dynamic range are now the edge of invention so we’ll choose a display for its balance of resolution, dynamic range and colour accuracy."
I think, and this is just an idea that: they can't announce unannounced cpu/soc or they or they don't know(that would be bad)
your s3 has 64gb sd. They are talking about onboard storage. At the moment biggest onboard is 64gb, there are around 8 highest end phones that have that. This is probably the easiest thing to up if memory prices and size goes down. First 128gb phones should come out around the same time when Edge. Then you will have 128gb onboard+whatever sd you buy extra.
Why am I protective over this thing? Because I am the one who they are making this thing for. I like playing with tech and I would see the benefit for using this portable computer. .. altough, at the moment it is out of my budget.
EDIT: This does not mean it is all perfect project. There are already some unanswered legitimate questions in comment section.
Actually, upon reflection, the comparison to F1 is completely spurious. They're not talking about doing any new hardware development; instead, they're looking at slapping commodity hardware in a box. That's doomed.
If there is a 2nd- or 3rd-gen Edge I will be very interested, but today's state-of-the-art ARM quad is not enough for the tasks I usually run on my laptop. If it can't replace my laptop, then contributing to this project is just throwing $600 (or $830!) sight-unseen into a development black hole that could be months late.
In these sorts of situations contributors are almost never reimbursed for delays. By the time this launches there will be yet another generation of Intel chips, ARM chips, and flagship Android/iPhone devices. It just doesn't make economic sense.
I appreciate what they are trying to do and I don't know if there's a better way. But it's quite a risk to shell out that much for a toy that may not really be that useful in this iteration.
let me quote: "In the car industry, Formula 1 provides a commercial testbed for cutting-edge technologies. The Ubuntu Edge project aims to do the same for the mobile phone industry -- to provide a low-volume, high-technology platform, crowdfunded by enthusiasts and mobile computing professionals. A pioneering project that accelerates the adoption of new technologies and drives them down into the mainstream."
It is not for you. If you want good phone, there are plenty out there to choose from.
formula 1 car is impossible to use in everyday life. It has really specific place where it excels. Edge is probably medicore phone and medicore pc, but it is probably really good at being both at the same time.
It is wrong approach to compare it to mobile users.
Edit: quote from comment section: "It's a premier, demonstration platform, not a mass market device." -achiang
I'm more concerned with the promise of 4GB ram and 128GB storage. That's going to be very expensive. The highest end phones today cost more and half half or less of that. (I know, things get cheaper, but this isn't orders of 20 million, it's orders of 20,000)
It's interesting that you talk about some kind of installation. Everyone with a desktop PC already has such an installation, and many people with laptops have one too - a screen and keyboard for when they're at home, and a laptop which plugs in there, or can be separated and used independently. Works for me.
So I imagine the target market here is people who use laptops with a screen at home and would be happy with even more convenience and a smaller device to carry around. This probably isn't a realistic convergence device as it is so ambitious, at present it's more dream than reality, but one day we might all work this way.
I find it more attractive to have a hard local store of my data than the alternative of trusting cloud providers with all my data and working from thin clients.
That makes so much more sense to me that I'm having a hard time understanding why Canonical would even attempt to design and manufacture their own handset.
The Nexus handsets are basically third party handsets with some input from Google, but primarily engineered and built by the hardware partner (LG, Samsung, etc). It's not really comparable.
Microsoft do engineer and build the Surface themselves, but last time I checked they just took a $900 million loss on it. Hardly great stuff.
"Dual LTE antennas"
Does this also mean double the radiation?
It's unlikely that the phone will spend power activating antennas that are not in use given the carrier/geographic standard, so my best guess is this: No. You will not see double the radiation.
(I could be completely wrong here, though. I'm not a cellular engineer by any standard.)
I did preorder, now that hopefully it will work on T-mobile network. (Which uses somewhat oddball frequency...)
But, Canonical, can you please extend the $600 price point for at least a month? This sudden 24 hour sale is too much of an impulse buy.
Best case the phone will arrive just in time to replace my Nexus4. Common case I get a refund. Worst case the thing is a dud, either poor build quality or under-performance.
From a high level Canonical has taken the right decisions to avoid the worst case. Being a high end device there is plenty of margin for a good case. The System on Chip is off the shelf so perforamnce only depends on the software. If Ubuntu is too heavy for mobiles then I can revert to android. The high fund threashhold means the phone will have the volume for factory production.
Before my Nexus 4 I had a N900. The N900 was the closest thing yet to a linux computer in your pocket. I loved it, you could tell engineers developed the N900 as a phone for engineers by engineers. This Ubuntu Edge looks like a true spiritual successor.
1 year until delivery seems fair for the makers, but unfortunately the competition will during this time release new devices with better specs.
Looks cool though. Reminds me physically of the Motorola DROID RAZR.
Ubuntu Edge does look good though, mostly because it should be a viable hybrid Mobile/Desktop replacement. While I won't be supporting it, I do hope it goes ahead.
BTW: sapphire crystal is extremely heavy and shatter-prone compared to GG3, for example. There's a reason Corning makes so much money.
Nowadays, it seems like a much better design is to have multiple devices with different form factors that can access shared data via a cloud.
(unless this product is meant as an NSA-proof system, but I don't see that it makes a very convincing product for that use case either...)
I'd much prefer to have a single trusted device than spread my digital life across "a cloud".
IBM's MetaPad was a similar idea.
Today, the Asus PadFone probably comes closest.
Personal Cloud is a better option.
I personally would be more than happy to own a single device that I could take with me and still know I had all the computing power I needed, without the bulk of a desktop or even a small laptop.
Monitor and keyboard at home, one at the office, phone in my pocket all backed up and synced in my personal private cloud.
That's not a problem for anybody else. It's practically a non-issue.
http://shopping1.hp.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/WW-USS...
Those are the monitors HP aims at the enterprise. A lot of them have VGA only, and none of them have HDMI.
So in my organization, we have thousands of monitors that would require an adapter at minimum and maybe a couple dozen floating around that were special ordered one-offs that might have HDMI built-in.
The little geek in me that wants to live in the Jetsons' future is going to be pretty disappointed if, 5+ years from now, I'm not unplugging my phone from a dock at home and plugging it in to one at work to meet all my computing needs.
I "work around" application state to a great extent with Xmarks (lets me open remote tabs) and screen, but it's a kludge compared to always having my main computing device in my pocket, ready to connect to any screen and keyboard to just keep working. Imagine hotels offering HDMI input to TV's + a keyboard so I don't have to use my "small" 17" laptop screen. Or internet cafees where I can "bring my own machine" with all my own applications and data.
I don't see how multiple devices is a "much better design" when we're always carrying one device around with us anyway. It's incredibly wasteful. Devices augmenting it with additional functionality, sure.
The only things holding back the smartphone as "the one" main computing device for most people is performance and capacity. Of course there will always be a need for more powerful machines for some niches, an there'll always be a need for e.g. laptop shells (and for "real" laptops too).
But for an increasing number of users, the power of a smartphone is rapidly exceeding what they need from a laptop or desktop computer, and then it becomes increasingly appealing to springing for a higher capacity smartphone if it can double as our main computer "just" with the addition of a "laptop shell" or screen + keyboard.
Keep in mind the PC desktop and laptop market has stagnated - average prices are low because the typical non-Mac PC user opts for low end models because they no longer see a need for the performance bump of the higher end models.
The performance a typical PC user wants, and the performance possible with mobile technology will soon intersect.
I know about the cloud. I distrust the cloud. The cloud is not for me.
A decade or so ago, a Pocket PC would have done the job. I think it was Toshiba who offered a $25 adaptor so you could plug in your PC's USB keyboard.
I would have expected to read something like, the phone is an enhanced version of x/y/z with these features, we got a great deal from (manufacturer), but we need 50,000 pre-orders to proceed.
Ubuntu Edge isn't aimed at the mass market. It's a special limited edition hardware platform which accelerates lots of interesting hardware technology combined with the Ubuntu phone. So it's designed for developers or technology enthusiasts who really value cutting edge innovation.
Canonical had to start with practical and common device, before going into super experimental one. And with resources from the first, go for more experiments.
From the FAQ:
"If we don’t reach our target then we will focus only on commercially available handsets and there will not be an Ubuntu Edge."
I don't think this supports your assumption.
It sounds to me like Mark has said, "Fine then, we'll go to our fans with the ideal device and see if the market responds. If they do, we're right and you can help us make these. If they don't, we're wrong and you can help us make more realistic devices."
I hope it works and it's awesome.
Just can't help thinking the pitch is a little half-assed, for an Ubuntu. The crowdfunding model is for little guys who are doing amazing things and can't get investment and distribution. It's a sign of weakness when an established player can't get those things. Ubuntu was featured by Dell but isn't anymore. Meanwhile Chromebook seems to have found a niche. You have to keep the users and OEMs on board and execute the stuff that's in your wheelhouse.
It's a premier, demonstration platform, not a mass market device.
[1] On the other hand what would be a benefit of investing into getting drivers work with glibc, other than running your classic Linux distribution?
To run without any translation layers and bionic quirks. That's the main benefit. When the system is using glibc (like Sailfish and Ubuntu do), and drivers aren't, the only way is to translate it like libhybris does. It's a crutch at best and not ideal. It can perform well, but it's still not direct.
* http://mer-project.blogspot.se/2013/04/wayland-utilizing-and...
* http://mer-project.blogspot.se/2013/05/wayland-utilizing-and...
But I didn't see any comparative benchmarks published so far. Translation cost might be not critical (i.e. tolerable), but it's still a cost and native approach should be always better.
They haven't got a clue... Why don't they start making working ROMs for existing phones. If they targeted a few existing high end phones and the ubiquitous and cheap MT6589 models (quad core, many with full HD screens) they might have a better chance of starting to spread their OS and intriguing users and developers.
Clearly there is a value proposition to having knowledge about all the bits in the phone, but as I discovered with the Android phones, working at Google, there are some bits which are protected in a variety of ways (basically most of the radios in phones these days are all software and that blob (the stuff that makes the radio 'work') is strictly licensed. It was, for me at least, an unexpected additional cost for the radio stuff. (I imagine that business model started with soft modems where the line access chips were $1 and the code to turn them into a 56Kbit modem was another $9 each).
Regardless of outcome, this will join a number of attempts at making a Linux phone. I wonder if anyone has collected all of the attempts into a single space.
The reality is that the Phone industry isn't incentivised to build products like Ubuntu Edge. It's a limited run, high-end product rather than mass-volume. In that context coming up with interesting ideas and then testing whether there's interest with crowdfunding is completely appropriate.
ps I work for Canonical so obviously I'm biased.
Unless I misunderstood something, crowdfunding (in current form) has low effective outcome, since it's taxed as presales (which axes the raised funds significantly). I think it's a bit weird, since in essence this is fundraising, and not presales, but this how it works for some reason. Investment doesn't work the same way, and the input can be used for the intended purpose much more effectively.
Supposing they could get 10k units for $500 each, that means they could ask for $1M or $2m and be far more certain of hitting their goal. Why not do that?
It seems as if they are trying to fund development of Ubuntu for phones on the back of this hardware project. Or, unlike Jolla and Tizen and Firefox OS they lack launch partners, so they are doing a "Microsoft Surface." Maybe the $900M write-down of Surface hardware made them think $32M is a doddle.
Ubuntu should run nicely on Surface RT hardware... They could make an offer.
Impulse buying a $600 handset that won't arrive for a year (if they hit deadlines, which doesn't happen), is asking for far too much trust.
Putting it on Surface RT hardware would be a dream. I don't like Unity for my desktop, but if I was looking for a 10" tablet I'd be all over it.
Unrelated: if you simply want to test drive Ubuntu for Phones, it's already been ported to 40+ platforms.
On top of that, if you don't have OEM launch partners for phones, maybe you shouldn't be doing phones. If the carriers really want you, they will make the channel commitments that the OEMs need to green-light a phone.
Isn't it just for OEMs? Or am I missing something?
From what I gather, it seems the entire purpose of this 'edge' project is a hardware one, not a software one. They're trying to gather the 'latest and greatest' hardware and make a phone out of it, which would by definition, not be found in an existing handset. I'm sure they'll try to push for their mobile os regardless of whether this fails or not, as it seems almost orthogonal to their mobile os efforts. Once they evaluate how feasible this 'cutting edge' handset idea is, I'm sure they'll continue to find devices to slap ubuntu touch on. But if they've had this 'premium phone' idea kicking around for a while, why not? This isn't an either/or scenario.
If each hardware choice has been made like that, there's a huge risk with the project. If the battery doesn't come up to snuff mAh-wise, how long will that 4G RAM / beautiful screen / 128Gb SSD actually last day-to-day, including phone calls?
There doesn't really seem to be much information about the people doing the hardware, and why they think they can stuff so much new stuff into a small package in the space of a few months.
They claim to have a prototype factory producing 500 phones worth of battery material per day. Not the scale Samsung needs but enough for a one off phone run.
[EDIT] - Never mind, just saw the fixed funding underneath the fundraising target :)
PS. I just ordered one, as I LOVE the idea of an unlocked phone designed and built from the ground up by Canonical specifically for Ubuntu users, with minimal interference from wireless carriers.
--
Update: When I posted this comment, the total raised was under $50,000. Less than an hour later, it had risen to over half a million dollars.
--
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(operating_system)#Inst...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO7QbCqFY7Y
It's going up quite fast, from 167k to 198k as I finish writing this, but I'm not sure if they'll make their target, just because the phone and OS are such an unknown quantity. I hope they will - and if Pebble can raise $10 Million, then they do have a chance, even if it is a slim one.
And it has a lot to offer over HTML. It has a better layout model for one, sane integration of concepts like animated property transitions and behaviors, makes it far easier to put custom objects backed by native code into the scene, and many other advantages. A lot of these things aren't possible declaratively in HTML, and HTML isn't set up to be extensible enough as a language so you could make up for it yourself. Yes, you can jam everything into a HTML document somehow, but that doesn't mean it's always a pleasant way to go, or that HTML is the peak of UI technology.
That said, it is possible but still not that easy to do. Native solution will probably be faster, more energy efficient and easier to use.
Thanks for the correction, I was thinking of xib, XAML, Activities etc. haven't used QML, though I have used Qt, a while ago now. One thing I do think HTML got right is to separate content and code, so putting my UI markup into a js-like format which potentially mixes in code is even less appealing :)
Yes, you can jam everything into a HTML document somehow, but that doesn't mean it's always a pleasant way to go, or that HTML is the peak of UI technology.
While there's a lot wrong with HTML, and I agree there's much to be improved in its layout model, learning and keeping in our head a new layout model just to place some buttons and UI controls on a page every time we switch platforms is painful, and leads to fragmentation and lock-in where people choose a platform and stick with it, because they've had to invest so much time learning those platform specific tools. I think that's a shame and it's not a pain I look forward to when moving platforms. Depends on your focus I suppose - if you plan on using one platform exclusively or using Qt everywhere, it won't bother you.
From my perspective doing work for clients on content-heavy apps, often with web integration, there's an awful lot of content already in html, it provides good control over text styling (typically far better than native equivalents), and it means content is portable between the web and apps, so for those pragmatic reasons I find HTML more appealing for presenting content, even for many UI controls.
For example if I have an Android app, an iOS app, and an Ubuntu Phone app, I have 3 different platforms to manage, each with their idiosyncrasies, differing features, layout language, and blessed platform language, and then I have a load of content which I have to let users generate, manage and get into apps on each platform, using web tools to do so is significantly less painful.
It's not a huge deal as you can obviously use webviews and frame html content with native controls for each platform, but I wish Ubuntu had taken a step towards the web instead with the phones rather than focussing on desktop technologies. I see why they'd want to tie it in with what they're doing on the desktop though. Sorry for the thread hijack!
It is pretty close to write once, run anywhere. The only downside is if your app is the first qt app installed on an ios / android device, it forces a download of the shared libraries which are quite large. You also have to build the applications against individual platforms, since you are using C++, and the finished binary is a native application that uses the qt libraries to launch the qml engine and v8 for the javascript parts.
One experiment I am anxious to see come to fruition in the qt space is the KDE project to get qml apps running in the browser : https://projects.kde.org/projects/playground/www/qmlweb. Since QML is inherently javascript, a web app could only use javascript / qml to create a restrcited sandbox (or nacl / other browser equivalent for the c++ parts) and the entirety of qtquick is designed around high latency elements, so it can support network transport.
How does this get around sandboxing on iOS? My fuzzy understanding is that components would need to be downloaded for each app independently. And is there a reason those shared libraries can't be bundled?
According to the qt blog, only qtquick2 depends on v8.
I do wish these platforms were a little more agnostic to the technology used in their API, and had simple C bindings anyone could write glue code for to use their favourite language. Learning yet another markup language and using C++ in order to create apps doesn't really appeal. Whatever the platform insists on as glue is what we'll have to use though, as usual. Personally I'm going to look into the webapp support in Ubuntu Phone to see if it supports local web apps, and hope that I can use that glue to get at any device state that I need to access.
As to qml in the browser, I'd really rather have web apps on the desktop than start writing websites in qml, I'd be very surprised if that catches on.
"Native or HTML5, your choice
We recognize HTML5 as a core Internet technology often used to develop cross-platform apps. As such, the Ubuntu toolkit offers the flexibility to support HTML5 too. It’s your choice to decide whether you want to go native with QML and the best Ubuntu integration or HTML5 and less integration via Unity webapps."
If you don't insist on the "Ubuntu" part, FirefoxOS offers everything you want, and is available on various devices right now:
https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/os/
After they build this "halo" device, they will be able to get some apps for Ubuntu Touch, and then build low-end phones. Ubuntu Edge is for people who want both a smartphone and a "PC", all in one (if you already have an extra monitor).
In my opinion, this is one of the main features of FirefoxOS: Every app has to build on open (web) standards. No vendor lock-in, no trying to impose proprietary native APIs on the app developers.
The market would be a lot more efficient of all smartphone OS were forced to push their great features by improving and extending open standards instead of locking all interesting stuff into their proprietary so-called "native" [1] APIs.
[1] For instance, is WebGL any less "native" than other 3D APIs just because it is accessible from the JavaScript VM instead of say, some Java VM?
I don't think that it's fair to characterize an OS built on Free Software as "vendor lock-in", or as the Ubuntu Touch API and implementation (which is Free Software) as a "proprietary native API".
I love the Linux Free Software ecosystem. There are multiple vendors (eg. Debian, Red Hat, Suse) and they all support multiple "proprietary native APIs" that happen to all be the same. My Qt application written on Ubuntu will run on Suse, as will my GTK one, as will my wxWidgets one. IMHO the breadth and quality available in distribution repositories far surpasses what is available in (say) Android's app store, or available in HTML5 "apps" today. Sure - there is plenty of bad software there, too. But there's good Free Software available for practically every task. Not so for the current phone app ecosystems.
Ubuntu may be the first to bring this ecosystem to the smartphone, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the only vendor for this ecosystem in the long run.
Ubuntu is bringing the Free Software ecosystem to the smartphone, and it's all under licensing that protects the FSF's four freedoms [edit: I suppose it's not all GPL, but what new code is being written is. That's as close as we can reasonably get, I think]. That's good enough for me. No proprietary APIs or lock-ins here. Even HTML5 apps don't compare, since they are typically not Affero GPL licenced.
Although binary-only proprietary apps will be permitted, AIUI, they are permitted in every other ecosystem as well. But I'll be cheering on the Free Software apps, and Ubuntu's smartphone seems to be the best way for them to become the norm (there are some great Free Software apps available on Android, but they are not the norm).
elon musk's vision is electric cars for everyone but decided to make the high end car first. Now he is slowing moving to mass market.
* Free and bundled together at a sharply discounted cost (or the cost of R&D in Apple's case) to the manufacturer aren't exactly the same, but that's not apparent to the purchaser.
Perhaps that's different in the US?
And while you theoretically pay for the Windows licence that come with a new machine a) most people aren't aware of that, and b) aren't aware that you can get that money back if don't use it.
Granted there's still a de-facto monopoly on paid for desktop operating systems for general x86 pcs -- but does that really mean that we should try to keep it that way?
On some, they've even donated the same amount or more in total dollars compared to OS X users - ie, Linux users have been more profitable even though they have a much smaller market share.
In short, Linux users are very profitable (per-user).
[0] I can't confirm that it's 100%, but it's been every Humble Bundle I've participated in (a lot), which I think is a large enough sample size for the purposes of this statement.
Maybe the lack of games make Linux users appreciate it more?
Not to suggest that there actually IS any difference between the two groups when they pay - I just feel like more a good-deed-doing partner when I voluntarily pay more for something like humble bundle, that's all. It's silly and false, but it's definitely a feeling.
I'm not au courant with Linux in any of its various forms, so my assumptions above could be wildly wrong, of course.
I think that you are correct -- at least in part.
I have zero desire to play games but I have purchased many of the Humble Bundles, for example, simply to "support the cause" and encourage other vendors to also consider Linux as a viable platform. I usually give away whatever it is that I've bought.
A single, idealistic phone like this will allow those users to focus and buy it - in much the same way as the games.
Your comment isn't really as relevant as you think it is. It would suggest Linux would be a highly lucrative platform to target for games, however the more normal it becomes to port games to Linux the less likely people would be to pay that price. This would happen much faster than you would think too.
Count me in the 'buys games' lot.
I havn't really had any problems playing any game that works on *NIX so far - not that there's all that many.. but still.
I value that Canonical can bring people to *nix, but I like my customization and a lot of the magic that KDE can pull off. Also, I love writing QML + C++, though with Ubuntu transitioning to be qt focused I could get that anywhere.
I hope this means, more than anything, the year of qt is 2014, because I'd really like to get employed working in qml / qt projects.
I just played Euro Truck Simulator 2 in Ubuntu 13.04 this morning. With the latest update it runs very nice. Full screen, no tearing. It has less FPS than in Windows, but that's expected for this particular game. Using an empty Openbox desktop to run it made no difference, the performance issues are not because Unity, but because of the game engine. I'm only working in moving my savegame from Windows to Ubuntu.
On the other hand, Portal and Half Life 2 run PERFECT in Ubuntu. Just as fast and pretty if not faster than in Windows 7. I'm waiting for Portal 2, as that's one game I have not managed to finish in any platform yet. They also support virtual desktops, so I can ctrl-alt-arrow them away in an instant if my GF needs something from me.
Source: From country where pirated windows used to be norm. Still is in ethical standpoint. Only OS bundled with computers has changed that.
It's a really high target caused by how expensive these platforms are to manufacture. But if we can get enough interest it will allow us to bring a great new phone to market!
ps I work for Canonical so should be considered a bit biased ;-)
I'd much rather give you $600 than pay AT&T and others for the "privilege" of an unlocked phone. I'm happy to have gotten my pledge in and look forward to many exciting updates :)
The Indiegogo campaign is just a sideline, not the core strategy.
Can you elaborate on this? I'm not seeing anything on the Indiegogo page that isn't more or less on track to be available in phones next year, except for perhaps the sapphire.
But if it is ARM and it still works, then it would still be a nice office platform.
If they make it, I will give a damn about Death Star not getting funded :P
"We’ve scoured the research labs of the biggest companies and most exciting startups for the latest and greatest mobile technologies to specify the first-generation Edge."
Do the people involved actually have hardware experience? That's not clear to me, and the second passage gives the impression of treating a phone as a collection of parts.
32 mil is a pretty risky first project…
The features they list are pretty standard on a high-end smartphone for next year, though perhaps not usually seen together.
No, we do not think a phone is a collection of parts.
What I want is a hub device along the lines of a Huawei Mifi device that will share a 4g connection with numerous other devices using a low power hardware and software stack, perhaps the latest Bluetooth.
Then I want my phone to be less powerful, to run most apps on the cloud and generally do little more than render things prettily.
I want camera lenses, display surfaces, input devices (keyboard, pen/stylus, augmented reality glasses, headsets, etc) to all mesh together, sharing bandwidth for intra-device communication... and ultimately all using the hub for communication.
I no longer want large and ever more powerful and feature rich phones or computers, I want to smash things up and have a choice of small bits that each do one thing very well.
Basically Star Trek communication device and then a lot of peripherals.
(Actually if this constellation of devices is mesh-like enough in architecture, the 4g modem won't be particularly special either: you'll keep it in your pocket, never look at it, and it will only be used [automatically, seamlessly] when wifi or its successors aren't available.)
It was upvoted like crazy, then downvoted like crazy, then upvoted again, and downvoted again.
It's come out very neutral, barely +1 or 0 now, but at the same time it's the most downvoted post I've ever made.
What is so objectionable about the post that merited the quantity of downvotes? And were the upvotes because other people agreed with the idea and also want this?
I would love to be wrong but I'm not buying the promise of a (real world functioning) PC on a phone. ARM based chips are 1 order of magnitude slower than a desktop x86 counterpart, currently there is no such processor to perform as desktop. Maybe they are going the intel road, anyway the indiegogo pitch sounds more like wishful thinking than a real plan.
Edge has 4GB of RAM planned, and will run even better than the N4.
So we still use the Android software to drive the camera.
As a photographer though, I have to say that I don't exactly hate the N4 camera. Built-in HDR is kinda nice, and has saved many shots for me.
Maemo (full-fledged Debian-based mobile distro, now dead, thanks Elop) user here.
Is Ubuntu Phone really running a full-fledged desktop-as-we-know-it GNU/Linux-derived distro? Because, after I heard about bionic+libhybris stuff and some chroot kludges I start highly doubt it. It's as "Ubuntu desktop" as chrooted Ubuntu install on Android, except for more optimized (compared to VNC-to-localhost, huh) video pipeline.
My perception is that it's neither typical-GNU neither Android but something partially (in)compatible to both.
Would be really nice if I'm wrong on this matter.
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-July/037...
Ubuntu Touch is fully Ubuntu and can take advantage of all that goodness.