My dad unexpectedly uses my Linux laptop to get real work done
So, this week he gives me a call and tells me that his Windows laptop battery died and he's been using my Ubuntu laptop. He tells me about how he found the Libre Office spreadsheet and he's been filling out his work documents (he works in high-end custom home construction) with it and transmitting it with Google Docs.
Then he tells me that he was able to add their house printer and print his docs from the machine using the instructions from Ubuntu's help system.
I was pretty much floored. My parents are NOT technical people. I offered to get him a Windows license for the machine but he said that it's working fine for him.
People make jokes about the "year of desktop Linux" but if my dad, without calling me ONCE, can use Linux productively to get things done, then, in my opinion, Microsoft is in trouble. As far as I'm concerned, their claim to usability in the PC OS world is dying.
Maybe this doesn't mean a whole lot in the big picture, but Linux has cost Microsoft at least one end-user license for an average computer user. For my family, I'm not sure how else you define a "year of Linux desktop."
354 comments
[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 148 ms ] threadThe main issue with Linux is, some one needs to install and setup everything for them. Finding and installing that missing wifi driver is not something that they can do.
Windows installation is breeze, just pop-in the disk and it will install everything for you. Hope pre-installed ubuntu systems get common.
I doubt my parents would be able to install a fresh copy of either OS without my help.
Actually, in the majority of cases your OEM or your IT department does this. It's not uncommon to have missing drivers when doing a clean install from the stock image on the retail DVD.
(Disclaimer: I have some history with this as I used to work in the team that created Windows Setup.)
It's actually been quite a while since I've had to do the driver hunt for Linux, but it's been routine with windows (unless you use the default oem install, obviously).
For Windows, at best everything is working except for graphics. Even then though, the drivers are usually not the same one's the OEM used, and you have to go Googling to find the correct stuff and current versions.
I don't disagree with you though, installing an OS is not something a normal user should be doing, even if the install dead easy. But as far as installing goes, I've always found Ubuntu and similar Linux's to be miles ahead of Windows at this point when considering ease of install and usability after install.
That "missing" wifi driver is not there because it's proprietary. It doesn't make sense to blame a free operating system for faulty hardware. In any case, I know that in Ubuntu, the user is informed of nonfree drivers being available and it's trivial to install the drivers from that point.
This mindset is toxic because it does not adequately think about the end user. I mean--drivers? What's a driver? Why do I, a user, care that it's difficult for Ubuntu to do something that Windows does? It doesn't work, that's all I care about.
It's not Ubuntu that can't do it. It's the hardware manufacturer that refuses to do it.
I personally choose to vote with my feet. I only buy computer hardware/software that works with Linux. If someone refuses to support Linux, they don't get my business.
If everyone does this, eventually everyone will support Linux or go out of business.
There isn't anything that Linux can't technically do. It's simply a matter of who is willing to support Linux.
Thanks for the explanation, but I've written (very simple) Linux device drivers before, I am aware. :) But my point was that you are making a distinction that simply does not matter to the end users that are under discussion. That a hardware manufacturer doesn't produce drivers for Linux doesn't change that, to a user, "Windows can do this and Linux can't."
It's great that you buy stuff that works with Linux. Linux's problem for normal people is that it doesn't work with everything. Windows does work with everything that a normal person is likely to run into and OS X comes pretty close to the same.
When my wife sees that her iPhone is a pain to connect to the computer, to her car, can't mirror to our TV, etc..., yet her Android tablet does perfectly, she doesn't blame the computer, car and TV...
You can have exactly the same problems with drivers. Especially on laptops which came with one type of Windows, while you are trying to installer some newer one. Most non technical people can't install Windows themselves anyway. So installation has zero advantage against Linux, especially these days when Linux installation is easy. The main advantage of Windows is like before - it comes preinstalled in the vast majority of cases.
LOL! I recent had to reinstall Windows 7 on a machine that was shipped with it. The manufacturers recovery disk didn't have the drivers for system. It took a couple of hours jumping through hoops to get the system up, then a couple of more hours to wait for Windows Update.
I had Linux Mint installed in less than one third the time the time with some minor issues with the wireless configuration.
I realize that means nothing in the grand scheme, but I still feel it's a powerful anecdote given that my parents are "average" computer users.
(And then of course there's the fact that Windows machines are actually subsidized by Microsoft, making Windows effectively cheaper than free. Plus all the other factors that make folks Windows users - the proprietary software, use in schools, etc.)
It's still tough to find a good, decently priced laptop OEMed with Linux though. I can't get my hands on the Dell XPS with Ubuntu pre-installed in my current country of residence...
You CAN do this if you turn off Optimus and just use the NVidia card... but it cuts battery life down by 40%... :-/
It's also interesting to see that it was Ubuntu, presumably with the new Unity interface. It's not something I personally like or even find intuitive, but it looks like it's fairly easy to pick up even for non-technical people. Along with the push by Valve to support Linux, I really hope this increases take-up of linux on the desktop.
Sent from my Linux desktop. :)
I went back two weeks later and he had a Mac.
A few years ago, I installed Linux on my parents' desktop (dual-boot)[0] and told them that they were "forbidden" to use any other computer for web browsing, document editing, etc. I told them that this would be more secure, and that's all it took to convince them.
I figured that, this way, at least I could fix any of their computer problems remotely (over ssh), instead of helping with Windows on the phone.
It's been 2 or 3 years now, and they've had zero problems. I haven't even needed to ssh in except to do periodic software updates (which, even then, are superfluous for their purposes).
[0] My dad's work requires some very specific Windows-only software
OpenBSD with KDE was pretty good, and I would have stayed with that but lucked out and was able to get a clean low-level copy of the old hard drive to a new one using 'dd' and get back to the original system.
DE's matter more than the distro when it comes to the amount of resources consumed...
I'd go for CentOS in that situation with the Stella repositories for multimedia, but would also consider Debian Wheezy XFCE4. As others have suggested one of the Mint flavours might work well.
Having said that, Debian Wheezy 'full fat' with Gnome 3/Shell works fine on this X60 manufactured in December 2006 and fitted with 1Gb of RAM. Admittedly, that was not a low end machine when it was manufactured.
It sounds like the machine may have had additional issues. I ran Ubuntu 7.04 - 12.04 on my 2005 machine until this year and could really have made it another year or two but thought it was time to treat myself to an upgrade.
Why did you not set up Windows to be able to do the same thing?
My mom is perfectly fine using Ubuntu on my old x61 for email, browsing, and YouTube. To be fair she could probably replace it with a tablet if it weren't for the fact that she visits a lot of flash sites (Chinese TV streaming sites).
Likewise my dad is on another Ubuntu machine at home. His work needs access to some software / printers that can't be run via Wine so he's stuck with Windows there.
I tried to convert my 25 year old brother as well, but he switched back to Windows after a month. Despite being the youngest, he hated learning a new system and preferred Windows.
By comparison my parents are rudimentary users of technology, and thus their switching costs are low. As long as there is Firefox / Chrome they're ok. Some Chinese sites still depend on ActiveX but they've been replaced with Flash for the most part.
If there was, the usage of Linux would double within days.
In fact, my personal opinion is that Libreoffice should abandon PPT and Word - both with adequate online equivalents - and go all out only on Excel.
There is simply no equivalent for Excel on Linux or Mac.
Photoshop + Excel on Linux would be it's killer applications.
BUT, having said that,I think there are tons of users that could use Calc for their basic calculations (I worked in a couple of banks and I think probably just 5-10% of users used it as "powerusers" and I suspect less than half of them used functions/code that have no equivalent in Calc)
There's a large difference, unfortunately, but it's the edge cases that the difference lies in. Some professions rely on those edge cases exclusively however.
The main issue is that there is no drop in replacement for Excel. There are spreadsheets that do calculations, statistics, scripts, etc... better, but there aren't any that can perfectly replicate Excel and perfectly read XLSX files right now...
Excel is really stupid fast. There are old stories of the Excel team at Microsoft being the most performance-obsessed group around. Excel really is a very great product. Can you demonstrate equivalent performance with Gnumeric?
If you're really performance obsessed, a spreadsheet isn't really the best solution anyway...
I agree with this, but tell that to the millions of non-programmers the world over (including almost exclusive use in the finance sector) who use spreadsheets for, well, programming.
I have heard it's not unusual for huge spreadsheets that take upwards of 15 minutes just to regenerate all the calculations and VBA macros it contains. Yes, this is horrible, but it's absolutely ubiquitous and so performance does matter. VBA support also matters for backwards compatibility with these monolithic, battle-tested behemoth spreadsheets. Python support is a great extra, but drop-in VBA support is the feature Gnumeric needs to find widespread use.
I can't fathom what you mean by "more accurate". Accuracy is binary. Are you saying Excel is inaccurate?
Heck, the last time Windows was my main OS was in 2007 or so, and I still think in terms of "Alt-Tab" with the Command button replacing Alt (since I'm in OSX). (And the never-disappearing menu bar, and the inability to tab between windows, and the fact that the maximize button is broken, still bugs me).
Interesting, I never thought this way.
I'm pretty sure none of the nontechnical users mentioned here would be willing to do that.
Ubuntu moved lots of configuration to the GUI, making it easily discoverable and usable for people who don't already know where to look for things. Ubuntu may be sucky, buggy and inflexible, but it's much easier to use than old-style GNU/Linux.
End users don't want easy HDD partitioning and easy WiFi configuration - they want to avoid them altogether, and have everything work out of the box.
If you're not an expert on the one program you need that's only on Windows, I think you can get comfortable quickly with Linux without missing anything.
You could be very cheeky and set the RedmondXP theme in XFCE4 just as a joke.
Mom is 55. Very non technical person, she learned how to send text messages a month ago.
Nevertheless, my dad set up the computer in their house with Ubuntu two years ago and she's been using it for email and web browsing ever since.
Seriously, just because you had too much free time doesn't mean I do. I appreciate your nonsensical condescension.
Of course, I could be doing things wrong. Who wouldn't want to have every waking hour consumed by other people?
Also, stop being offended by every comment that doesn't agree with yours. fit2rule's comment could be considered a bit presuming, but it is neither nonsensical nor condescending. On the other hand, your comment is both of those things.
My colleagues at work, Programmers, aren't able to get out of Windows, even though they are just writing python. They would rather stick with the pain of having to use git in a crappy console, and suffer loads of pain when shell-ing into ec2 linux boxes, Than learn a new UI and file-system
The terminal _sucked_. It was the same crappy DOS box I'd seen since, well, DOS days and Win3.1.
That lead me on an exploration of MKS, UWIN, Cygwin, and finally, Red Hat, over the course of a few months. And I realized Linux Didn't Suck.
Another few months and I wiped NT off my hardrives and repartitioned with RH. Never looked back.
Powerful tool, but the "we'll go our own way despite commonly accepted UI standards" has always made me a little crazy.
* Most simple grep and sed commands are entirely do-able. Bit more verbose syntax, but that comes with a hell of a lot of easy-to-access power
* It's all about objects, rather than plain text. This can often be a pain, but Import-Csv and Export-Csv are utter LOVE. Adding additional new properties could be easier, but it is an option and can be used to great effect
* It's basically .Net for the command line, and you can get to all the power locked away in the .Net libraries
* No installation required on modern windows machines. Assuming your network admins are not overly restrictive, you get a proper shell without having to install cygwin
But Cygwin is also usefull ;)
[0] http://code.google.com/p/conemu-maximus5/
The available console or ssh apps are horrible compared to the same apps or linux or mac; and the unix tools have sort-of-been-ported, and I can use them through, say, cygwin but they're not 'nicely working' as they should be. I mean, it's simpler to just ssh to an ubuntu instance than get&use the same tools directly on your machine.
I dunno, I must have a different usage pattern to a lot of people here, but I've used tools such as git/ruby/node/telnet/etc across Windows(conEmu + bash)/Linux/OSX and don't really have a strong preference for any OS in this regard. I get that there are differences, and maybe I'm just lucky and haven't seemed to hit these issues that make Windows so horrible for a lot of devs.
This might hold water were it not for the fact that pretty much all console unix tool users started off on Windows or Mac.
> GUIs are more natural, it's much better then learning each tools crappy mini console DSL.
Yes, GUIs are more natural. But for most of us, the time spent learning how to use common unix tools pays for itself very quickly by increasing productivity: it's an investment.
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MinGW
Conemu comes pretty close to solving the terminal software problem, and there are alternatie shells, e.g. Powershell or bash from cygwin.
And msysgit (https://code.google.com/p/msysgit/downloads/list?q=full+inst...) which includes the "git bash" shell. It's got almost all the basic unix tools installed by default.
Its a fork of console2.
+ Adds Splitting Tabs into views
Console2 development seems to have slowed down.
readline completion à la bash: http://code.google.com/p/clink/
nice console emulator with tabs: http://code.google.com/p/conemu-maximus5/
gnu tools on windows without cygwin: https://github.com/bmatzelle/gow/wiki
not perfect, but actually usable...
Our company has a lot of legacy VBA code that would need to be replaced. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be smart to replace this. I hated the way VBA changed on every release and broke my code base. The last straw was when I needed to access spreadsheets that used 3rd party VBA modules that were locked. I ported my whole back-end data analysis/report generation code base to Open Source R/Sweave/LaTeX. But I'm just one user and did it myself as a spare time activity.
I still think Visual Studio is a pretty nice development environment for C++. I'm trying to get up to speed with Eclipse. I do prefer Open Source. Now that our corporate budget is REALLY tight, that is a big help. Guess the IT folks think it would cost more to switch than pay the annual tribute to Redmond
She was against every subtle change, so putting another OS on her machine was hard. She even resisted to use a much faster Computer, because she likes when things "just work" and really doesn't care what the name of the system is or about the specs of the system, as long as things can be done the "usual way" and she doesn't need to wait 5min. for things to happen. Her old computer was a 1GHZ, this one has 3.2GHZ and for her it's the same. To be honest, things aren't really getting faster for an average PC user, except when you install an SSD.
It's also worth mentioning that Ubuntu has perfect support for the current Macbook Pro and Macbook Air, so I don't know what point you're even making by saying that OS X has hardware support for Macs.
Apple has a hard time matching the speed and flexibility of a lightweight GNU/Linux distro (presumably because OS X's focus on polish, integration and aesthetics means they want to tip the scale of compromises back in that direction, and that's fine). Some of us don't mind not having drop shadows and pervasive "cloud" integration if it means we can have full control over our own computers :)
If we ignore the metro side of things, I agree with you however.
Yes, absolutely. My start screen is an empty, blue wall with a large tile taking me to the desktop. Despite the start screen I like everything else about the system.
It's what Ubuntu should be, its what Windows 8 should be! it's classic and yet functional and customizable, both my parents laptops are using it as UI and I hear no complaints.
I personally really don't care at all for the ridiculous glassy look of Aero in Windows 7; it's ugly to me.
I think the biggest problem with Linux is that many people plainly prefer what they're used to. Additionally, if you're a so called Windows "power user" you have vested more knowledge in the Windows ecosystem - specialized knowledge that is useless in the Linux world. An older person doesn't have this specialized knowledge, computers are all the same to them. THAT'S why it's easier for them to switch. They're used to being n00bs and knowing little about the OS they're using. It really doesn't matter which OS it is.
You're rather rude there. I don't agree with what you said and I can say the same thing about your statement. I know plenty of people my age with Linux experience that don't use it as their primary OS precisely because of the UI. And no, they don't want to waste time on config files with a WM, they did that when they were 16-18. And BTW, I was talking about Windows 8, not 7.
I find it ironic that you talk about wasting time on config files. My experience in Windows is that doing anything beyond the 10 tasks Microsoft determined to be common results in hours of clicking through menus, configuration dialogs, and in some cases dealing with the registry editor. Trying to troubleshoot a problem is a nightmare. Trying to set up something unusual is beyond a nightmare.
Yes, you may not agree when I say Windows (7) looks butt ugly -- and that was my point. It's all quite subjective.
Linux has a big advantage, though, in that you can quite easily switch between different Desktop Environments and/or Window Managers. Configuring the look and feel of your desktop is just a lot easier. And config-file time wasting is entirely optional, I promise.
Personally I've never cared for Microsoft's design. XP always looked chunky and gaudy to me - I hated it. Aero looks unfinished compared to Compiz (but part of that might be down to the fact that Linux has been doing desktop compositing for years before Windows finally caught up). And Windows 8 just looks like Microsoft forgot the last 2 decades of OS design and reverted back to the 320x200 days of square windows, square widgets, etc.
So I'm happy you find Microsoft's design to be your particular eye candy, but don't patronise us by arguing that this preference is fact.
I've found this myself. My Grandfather loves Windows 8, my mother absolutely hates it. My Grandfather loves his new Android phone, my mum hates Android and refuses to use anything other than her iPhone.
Younger people may be more "tech-savvy", but at least anecdotally for myself they are the ones who hate change the most. Perhaps it's because the older crowd have fewer preconceptions about how things are "supposed" to work?
In defence of 'younger people' generally I hand my X60 Thinkpad running Debian Wheezy with the default Gnome 3 desktop around sometimes in class. It does not take them long to work out how to access Firefox and a maths video on YouTube after suggesting they press the windows key. They generally find the trackpoint harder to deal with than the actual interface so I take a USB mouse in with me.
She has been mostly happy, I found running printers to be less fun than it could be and the linux photo management apps aren't always that great. Recently gave her a thinkpad with Mint and she is still happy.
Does your brother need access to specialised software (e.g. having to hand in College/University work in some Windows specific system or using business applications)?
But the number one reason, of course, no malware, which happens every time kids use my computer on windows.
Here's another: I have Ubuntu on a couple of machines at home and still can't get them to talk to my Brother MFC-685CW printer. I'm a PhD in EECS.
FWIW, there are decent drivers for HP OfficeJet wireless printers, and printing "just works" from Ubuntu.
Linux has plenty of compatibility problems (scanners are especially bad, imho), but printing is not typically one of them.
But yeah, your point is valid. I just couldn't resist the urge to poke a little fun.
He got it right away. The multitasking in GNOME is just so fluid and efficient compared to any other operating environment, and it's just so... intuitive.
As an OS X user, I find GNOME more consistent and easy to use, to be quite honest with you. I'm just holding out until Wine gets to the point where CS6 is supported.
"While there is no doubt, IMHO, that it shouldn't be surprising that anyone can get "real" work done..."
WTF is "real work" anyway?
It all started years ago when my dad got a virus on the windows laptop, then I told him to use Linux (all they do is watch movies and browse the web) and installed Ubuntu for them. My mother got angry at me because she couldn't use Internet Explorer (ugh) and it "looked different" even though my dad was enjoying it, so we had to revert back to Windows... turns out half a year later they are full of viruses and crap, with a thousand toolbars in the browsers and all that stuff. They asked me for help to clean the PC and I pretty much told them that they need Linux if they want to get rid of viruses (I moved to another country so I have no time to go back there and fix it every time they get a virus). My dad managed to convince my mom to use Linux, he pretty much forced her to tell you the truth, however now they both love Xubuntu and have been using it for more than a year without problems. They both think it's actually faster and cleaner than Windows.
I'm happy.
Tomorrow I'm going to an open source event, mostly to show support for foss in general. Ironically the event will be in school: the very thing most important for the future generation of programmers and yet a place teaching us to be dependant on expensive, limiting and non-free software.
Reading this thread I almost feel that showing support is not needed that much anymore. We're there; our goal is reached. Too bad it's not. Monday morning I'll still be required to prove my competence (dependence?) in using certain non-free software while running the school's spyware in the background... which only runs on Windows. Ten years ago the Dutch government unanimously agreed semi-public institutions should use open software. In 2013, nothing changed.
Even despite the Snowden news, it feels like we're still at square one. At least threads like these give me hope :)
I'm doing some IT study at Fontys. Not a university by Dutch standards, but their english name is "fontys university of applied sciences". In any case, we have one other Linux user in class and one macbook (I consider a Unix lookalike at least a tiny bit better than Windows), and we're an advanced class doing the study in three instead of four years. Some first year students I know (not doing the advanced track) are totally happy using Windows 8 with all the vendor's crap still in place.
That's one of two reasons that I like using it. The other is that it will always run the Adobe CS painlessly. Can't really find that combination anywhere else.
google-google Awh in Rotterdam, a bit too far away for me. Sounded like an interesting place to intern at!
Edit: No way to escape asterisks it seems, they'll be italic ifnot surrounded by whitespace no matter what :/
Weird that this is so different at HBO.
Also I know some people that teach computers at a highschool/MBO and they're really pushing Linux and open source. Although I do have the feeling they're probably more exception than the rule in this context... :)
Indeed, because old people are all idiots. Honestly, for the basic tasks, the major OS's are as easy as each other these days.
When HP had a fire sale, I sent her one and she loves it. I think the interaction model is more friendly for her than the unknowns if a trackpad and windows.