HN Explorer

Poll: Full-time software engineer salaries in Berlin

80 points by peterjmag ↗ HN
Base annual salary only, pre-tax. No options, shares, bonuses, adjustments for inflation, or benefits.

As requested by zerr at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7108449. Here's the 2013 Bay Area salary poll: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5802295.

96 comments

[ 3.6 ms ] story [ 171 ms ] thread
levosmetalo
Maybe better edit the question so that it applies to the whole Germany. You'd get a much larger data set, and there are not really big variations between major cities regarding salaries.
_ak
I disagree. There are rather huge gaps between Berlin vs. cities like Frankfurt or Munich. Living costs are much lower in Berlin, and so naturally, wages are lower, too.
Argorak
Take this statement with a grain of salt. Living costs are shooting up dramatically, currently.
_ak
Still nowhere near e.g. Munich, and it really only shoots up in the hip, stylish neighborhoods. I've lived in Berlin for 5 years now, in a not-so-cool but still reasonably central area (Moabit), and rents have barely gone up during that time.

I've also spoken to quite a few recruiters in recent years, and many of them were quite blunt that jobs in cities like Frankfurt, Munich or Hamburg usually get you 10-20 % higher salaries compared to Berlin, same kind of tasks, same skills required.

Xylakant
Rents have gone up, but there's still a lot of things that are dramatically cheaper in Berlin than in Munich - just go out for lunch for example.
k__
But jobs which pay 100k in Munich should also pay 100k in Berlin.

If you make more than 60k the living costs aren't much of a concern for you anymore.

Xylakant
> But jobs which pay 100k in Munich should also pay 100k in Berlin.

Why? It's a function of supply and demand - for a long time a lot of people wanted to move to Berlin because it was cool, hip and cheap to live. So there was a steady supply of people wanting to work and live in Berlin, driving prices down for employers and since living in Berlin was (and still is) cheaper than Munich it was economically viable for employees to take a lower salary in Berlin and still come out ahead financially. Things changed a little since costs are converging a little, but as prices went up, salaries went up as well.

earllee
But you'll have a different amount of surplus money, since living costs might cost, 50k in Munich but only 40k in Berlin.
Argorak
That would assume that salary is a pure function of the work you do.

Berlin has certain advantages for tech employers:

* It is an expat-friendly city

* Nightlife is great, if you like the makeshift style

* It is the epicenter of the german hacker community

* Costs of living are still lower

All these are soft factors are opportunities for employers to haggle prices down.

levosmetalo
Also, "without bonuses" part makes no sense, since in Germany some bonuses are contractually enforced and employer doesn't have an option not to pay them. For example, Weihnachtsgeld (Christamas money) is usually 1 or 1/2 of monthly salary and is defined in every contract. In addition to that comes the yearly bonus, which is rarely not awarded in its entirety. In my company it's about 15% of salary for previous year, and only way not to get it is to leave company before the payday.
mzehrer
Haha, no "Weihnachtsgeld" is completly optional. Welcome to the Mittelstand.
Argorak
It is treated as salary nowadays, just with odd payment terms.
Argorak
> and only way not to get it is to leave company before the payday.

There have been rulings that yearly, regular bonuses have to be paid partially if you leave before the payday. For "Weihnachtsgeld", which is a fixed bonus, this is the reason why modern contracts usually don't include it anymore but just put it on the monthly salary. See the link[1] for a recent ruling (german, sorry).

Still, a lot of stuff that would be a "bonus" in the US is included in Germany. Contracts in germany include mandatory health care, social security, the whole range.

[1]: http://www.zeit.de/karriere/beruf/2013-11/urteil-anspruch-we...

sasvari 

  For example, Weihnachtsgeld (Christamas money) is usually 1
  or 1/2 of monthly salary and is defined in every contract.
  In addition to that comes the yearly bonus, which is rarely
  not awarded in its entirety.
Nope. Weihnachtsgeld is not defined in every contract. Either you're working for a company bound by a union rate to pay Weihnachtsgeld or the company pays it voluntarily. There is no Weihnachtsgeld guaranteed by law. As for bonuses, this depends on the employer and usually also on the time you spent at the company. Just my two cents.
levosmetalo
Sorry, I didn't say that Weihnachtgeld is required by law, just that I don't know a single person that doesn't have Weihnachtsgeld guaranteed by employment contract.
Xylakant
In our company noone gets Weihnachtsgeld. We treat it as part of the salary and just include it in the monthly wage. But I agree: If it's granted it's more of a salary part than an actual bonus.
DasIch
Weihnachtsgeld can become a "betriebliche Übung", if it is payed three times in a row, meaning your employer has to pay it, unless you have a contract that explicitly states otherwise.
Xylakant
This is why literally every contract nowadays includes the legal boilerplate that says so. To quote from our contract:

"Die Zahlung von Gratifikationen, Tantiemen, Prämien und sonstigen Leistungen liegt im freien Ermessen des Arbeitgebers und begründet keinen Rechtsanspruch, auch wenn die Zahlung wiederholt ohne ausdrücklichen Vorbehalt der Freiwilligkeit erfolgte. Etwas anderes gilt nur dann, wenn die Zahlung durch Betriebsvereinbarung oder Tarifvertrag geregelt ist."

If your contract does not include that boilerplate your employer had a shitty lawyer and should fire him.

Edit: fixed Umlauts which were broken by c&p

timme
All of the things you mention are completely optional for the employer.
cake
3 points for "€100k or more" already sounds like bullshit to me at this time.

Either that or I would love to hear what you do !

drinchev
... Or at least the company segment.
arethuza
Within a few seconds of looking I managed to find a "big data architect" role being advertised in Berlin for 500-600 Euro per day - which is comfortably over 100K a year...

Almost tempted to apply... ;-)

Xylakant
A 'per day' payment sounds like a freelance consulting gig which puts it at the lower range of the freelance wage bracket. Freelance jobs are paid better but suffer from higher costs, so those numbers are not directly comparable - you'd have to subtract about 40% to cover the costs.
bnegreve
Of course it is, this is an online pool. The assumption that a uniform sample of developers from Berlin would vote for this is absolutely ridiculous. It scares me that so many educated developers consider this to of any significance.
mahyarm
That is a pretty standard wage for a sr. developer in the SFBA. Big reason why I'm not moving to europe any time soon.
doktrin
$140k is standard for a developer in the bay area?
mahyarm
Senior developer, $137k. With college grads getting $100k, it's not far fetched.
Xylakant
European and US wages are in no way comparable by looking at just the figures. European wages include pension payments, health care, payment for sick days and at least 4 weeks of paid holidays while US contracts often do not provide all of those benefits. This skews the raw numbers massively.
efuquen
There are definitely factors that make comparing these salaries difficult, but some of the things you listed just simply don't apply to most Software Engineers. Most jobs will offer you good health care for free, not deducted from your wages. Also most jobs won't deduct sick days from your salary and even though 2 weeks is more standard for holidays here I've found that getting more vacation days is not that difficult (depends on the job). As far as retirement, I'm not sure how Social Security compares to whatever pension payments your talking about, or 401k matching that many employers do (still required for you to put money in). But the OP said salaries excluding taxes, I would imagine whatever social safety net is in place would be taken out of your wages in taxes, right? Or maybe the business themselves provide most of this money for pensions and such? Again, not sure how that all works there.

This is all from the perspective of a "Software Engineer", most of what you said would definitely apply to a lower wage job, but not something that's specialized and in demand.

What definitely does factor in is cost of living. The rents i saw listed in some comments are 3 to 4 times lower then what I'm paying in NYC. Also general cost of living outside of that is far cheaper from the numbers I see listed, though that's harder to compare because I don't know how other commenters live, for example I eat out mostly, cook once in awhile. But, I know it's definitely possible to live more cheaply then I do and still end up alright, though it would require more sacrifices (i.e. I can imagine spending half of what I do in rent and general costs and still get by ok).

In short, yah there are differences, but I don't think the main ones are what you listed.

Xylakant
> But the OP said salaries excluding taxes, I would imagine whatever social safety net is in place would be taken out of your wages in taxes, right?

Jein :) The cost for social security is split roughly 50/50 between employee and employer.

The basic point about more holidays is true in germany as well: I know people that have 30 or even 35 days (7 weeks) of holidays. Then there's public holidays that are paid as well in germany (up to 14 per year, depending on where you live) etc.

My basic point was that it's very hard to compare salaries only by looking at the raw figures since the benefits guaranteed or given voluntarily differ massively.

stdbrouw
> I would imagine whatever social safety net is in place would be taken out of your wages in taxes, right?

It depends, e.g. in Belgium part of it is paid by your employer on top of your pre-tax wage, and a (larger) part is deducted from your pre-tax salary. Don't ask me why.

I think you're right to point out that there's two different – though obviously related – questions to ask: (a) are companies paying less? and (b) is individual taxation higher?

mahyarm
While the expensive cities we live in might be expensive on a rent basis, everything else in the USA is far cheaper compared to Europe and Canada. Food, consumer goods, gas, VAT/sales tax, etc.

After a certain point the cost of rent maxes out, especially if your a single person with roommates. Also the US has lower tax rates. If you wanted to be really optimal in total profits and not move to a developing country you might work in austin, seattle or even las vegas with no state income tax and far more affordable rents.

The only thing left is 2 or 3 more weeks in vacation time, which if you adjust on a $/hour basis, the SFBA still comes out ahead. It is definitely enviable, but there are companies out there that would be fine with you taking equivalent unpaid vacations or working remotely for weeks at a time.

super_mario
You are also paying 4 times as much for a lower quality apartment. You are also getting 1/3 of vacation time and you have lower quality health coverage, benefits and perks.
dreen
Developer here looking to possibly relocate from London to Berlin or other German (or Dutch) place, I have a question for anyone filling out this poll:

I spend on avarage about £700 a month excluding rent, which allows for relatively comfortable life in London. What spending can I expect in Berlin? What about rent? (I pay £425 which is pretty cheap for London)

[deleted]
(comment deleted)
vincentkriek
Eindhoven is cool as well!
radicalbyte
..and booming, there are a lot of very interesting companies and jobs there.

Shame that it's 90 mins drive from here :(

64mb
Whoa, where are you living on that kinda rent? I pay almost double.
quarterto
> excluding rent

edit: Ok, so I should have read to the end. Yeah, £425 is ridiculously cheap for London.

resiros
For the rent in Berlin calculate circa. 10 euro per square meter. Generally life in Berlin is cheap (For around 1200 Euros you can have a nice life).
ccbrandenburg
You can find extremely nice places for around 500-700 Euros per Month depending on where you want to live. Demand for flats is extremely high so it's really a matter of luck. Another 700 Euros to live very comfortably in Berlin (Lunch, occasional dinner, going out on weekends). Standards of living are extremely high in Berlin. I can only recommend this city!
gst
In which part of London do you get an apartment for £425? I had the impression that you have to pay at least 3x that amount to get a reasonable apartment in a somewhat central place.
alexchamberlain
I pay ~£1000 mortgage in a reasonable area within 15 minutes of centre. Renting is more expensive.
dreen
Greenwich/Lewisham area in Zone 2. It depends, my house is pretty low standard though.
ollysb
There's plenty of low cost housing in London, it's just that you won't be living anywhere near the bits of London that you're thinking of ;) I used to live in an old edwardian house in Greenwich, it's a nice area and doesn't take too long to get into the centre.
cobrophy
I pay a similar amount sharing with two friends in Clapham/Balham. It helps that we've been in the same place for 4 years so the rent hasn't gone up too much over that period.
maciejgryka
I've just made the same move, feel free to get in touch if you have any more questions! I've only been here for about 3 weeks so far, so don't have much data, but €500/month for living costs seems easy.

Rent, depending on what you want, is probably about 80% of what you pay for a comparable flat in London. You can probably get 2 bedrooms (+living room) with all the bills included for about €800. Just be prepared for seriously unfurnished flats: sometimes you need to get your own kitchen! Also it apparently takes a lot more time and paperwork than in London to find something - people say 3-4 months is normal and I'm still looking.

Good luck!

levosmetalo
One tip about finding an apartment from another foreigner in Germany... Just find some local friend that speaks local dialect and ask him to call landlords for you. It can make your "time to apartment" much shorter (and cheaper).
maciejgryka
That's so true. I'm lucky to have a German-speaking girlfriend and it makes a huge difference.
superplussed
When people say that it will take 3-4 months to find an apartment, what are they doing in the meantime? Renting short-term apartments such as sublets?
rglullis
Yes. It took me 2 months to find a place in a WG. In the mean time I was hopping around AirBNB and friends.
killerpopiller
..living your way up, stay in a shitty flat and search from there for a better one.

It depends of course where you are, but we (WG) searched for a new flat five months.

junto
I've been in Germany a number of years now. If you are freelancing then get a good accountant is the one tip I would give. The Germans take tax matters very seriously.
superplussed
I assume you got the freelancer's visa? How hard was that process? Were you able to get it in your first 3 months to avoid making a visa run?
e12e
If (s)he's not from the EU/Schengen area, in which case no visa is needed...
junto
Correct. I'm lucky to be an EU citizen. No visa required.
hazelnut
Lived one year in London and 5 years in Berlin. In general rent is much cheaper in Berlin. So with £425 you can find a good apartment. It depends a bit on the area, how much space and what kind of extras you need. Check out immobilienscout24.de, immonet.de or immowelt.de

Living costs are in general also cheaper. Take a look for Aldi or Lidl for cheap grocery. You can safe there up to 50%. With £700 a month you won't have any problems.

drinchev
Wow. I didn't know that so many people reading HN are Berliners. Let's try to make a Berlin HN meeting some day..
nader
yes that would be awesome and I'd join as well.
peterjmag
Agreed! Who wants to organize one? :-)
ShellfishMeme
I'm already organizing one together with a friend. Stay tuned. We'll post some details later when we figured out a good date.

In the meanwhile, if you'd like to propose an interesting talk, just send us a mail to hackernewsberlin@gmail.com.

We think it would be cool to have a mixture of tech talks and startup stories. I'd love to hear the founding stories of some of the startups around here.

brightsize
I'll be in Berlin for three months starting in March, so I'll be at the get-together if you can set it up.
phazmatis
A little off-topic, but how hard is it for a US citizen interested in having lived in two countries in his life to get a dev job in the EU? I imagine most devs that come in from another country are coming from at least within the EU, and I was just wondering how unheard-of my case would be.
peterjmag
I can't speak for the rest of the EU (I'm a US citizen working in Berlin), but it's definitely not unheard of here in Germany. In fact, it's actually becoming pretty common, thanks in part to some progressive immigration reform.

Here's a comment I posted a couple months back with more information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6648443. Feel free also to get in touch (my email's in my profile) if you want some more advice.

Anyway, I say go for it! It'll be the best decision you've ever made. :-)

socialist_coder
super easy. getting a visa in germany is cake compared to the US. lots of tech / game companies here in berlin / germany will hire americans. just start appplying!
devinegan
My brother is a US citizen and left Zappos (Las Vegas) for Soundcloud (Berlin) last year and his experience was seemingly very smooth. I think Soundcloud helped a lot with that, but it doesn't sound difficult to get your visa. With that said, he did mention that his college degree helped with that process.
nader
Avg. rent in Berlin is €1000, Avg. Lunch 8€, Beer 0.80€, Internet €23 ... more info here: http://bondero.com/startup-cost-comparison
ido
Average rent in Berlin is not 1000 eur...Oh, I see they say it's for 85 m^2 in the city center. That's extremely roomy for a single person or a couple.
nader
Rent has exploded in Berlin and is continuing to climb in Berlin. Also if you look outside the city center, i.e. in Friedrichshain, Kreuzberg oder Prenzlauer Berg.

As single developer you wouldn't need 85qm, true. As a couple you probably want to have min. 50-60qm. My personal taste obviously, but I have a family with two kids and we need more than that :)

TillE
Despite a huge increase in demand making it much more difficult to get an apartment in a desirable area, the rent increases on them have only been a few percent per year. And dealing with property management companies is usually a huge pain, but that's nothing new.

It's still pretty easy to find a 50qm in Friedrichshain, Kreuzberg, or Neukölln (within the Ringbahn) for under €500-600 warm. If you want or need a larger, fancier flat, or if you want to live in Prenzlberg or Charlottenburg, obviously you can choose to pay more.

ido
The places you mentioned are all the hippest, most desirable neighborhoods though!

If you look into (relatively well connected parts of) e.g. Moabit or Wedding you'll find prices more agreeable.

playing_colours
That "average" is not really average. Current info for 2 rooms flat not in the very centre, but some stations from it - EUR 650-800 incl. heating. In fact, you don't have to live in the very centre (Mitte). The public transport system is amazing, the city is very bike-friendly and a lot of startup companies tend to have offices in the eastern part of Berlin.

UPD: well, for a large flat in the city centre that's a fair price, but that's not average for Berlin.

wisienkas
those answering less than 20k euro, how did you manage to get paid that low. To me coming from denmark, that more sound as if it's a monthly salary compared to "starter-salary" in denmark which is 35k DKK or 4,7k euro a month.
levosmetalo
Or they simply misread the question and reported after tax salary.
peterjmag
A couple observations:

While €20k is certainly a low salary for a software engineer (even in Berlin), it's not completely unheard of. I've seen a couple startups offering €1500/month for entry-level dev jobs, and actually, €1500 gross is enough to live on here. Then there are the so-called "mini jobs", which only pay €400/month or so, but those are usually student jobs or unskilled labor. You probably won't find any real dev jobs at that level—especially not full-time positions.

Also, it's pretty common here for people to discuss salaries in monthly terms (my German employment contract is one example), whereas in the US it's more common to talk about annual salaries. I didn't consider that when I created this poll, so it's possible some people were accidentally responding for the wrong time frame. I've added "annual" to the description to clarify.

And finally, it's entirely possible those are just junk responses: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5537023

wisienkas
Those 1,5k per month could be a reason why, true.

For my student job I only make 500 euro a month, but that's well a side job while i study tho. so of course that is somewhat low, because i'm only working 9 hours a week there.

rglullis
Don't mean to pollute all threads with salaryshare stuff, but the tool is so appropriate for this use-case...

I've created a salary pool at http://salaryshare.me/a9f54a571d1b0d89a47ee481a61b0da4. Please only post a salary if you are full-time employed in Berlin. Those who only want to see the results, please check http://salaryshare.me/a9f54a571d1b0d89a47ee481a61b0da4/resul....

jorgem
That is so clever. If you can convince your coworkers to use it, you can figure out if you're underpaid.
rglullis
Glad you liked it. That was the main use case. I've added just a few of the features since the "Show HN" years ago: different currencies, different pool sizes, the results page... the one thing that I still need to do is the "send a secret email to your co-workers with a link to the pool". I fear that I can't do that without user signups, though.
leterter
Those are some really low salaries
iagooar
They may sound low, but compared to the USA, Germany has public health care, free education (up to graduate level), a long, paid parental leave and a lot of other social benefits. This really sums up if you have to pay for all these things yourself.
this_user
You are paying for those things, but it's being paid indirectly. Paying 40% or more of your gross income for health care, social security and taxes is another thing that Americans would probably find to be high.
ulfw
Oh really? And you really pay less in Federal taxes + California State taxes + Medicare + Social Security tax + VPDI etc etc? For me that was 40%+ as well...
brightsize
This. I'm always surprised how people think that Europe is going to kill them with taxes in comparison to the States. If I add up all the taxes that you mention for any high-tax US state the sum is going to be right up there pushing 40%, maybe more. The difference is that as far as I can see the Germans, like Canadians, are getting some their tax money back in the form of social services and social protections. Here we just feed it to the military-industrial complex all while carrying on about how "the country is broke".
doktrin
Compared to the VC speculation bubble in SF, sure.
c1sc0
For anyone outside of DE reading this: do keep in mind that these are salaries in Berlin, probably the cheapest place in Germany to find devs.