I'm in Oakland too and have some experience with the ups and downs (and downs, and downs) of starting a company. If anyone could use a sympathetic ear, I'd like to help.
Ditto. More than happy to listen and talk through experiences. We've certainly had our fair share. Can Skype or meet up in SF, email in profile. YC alum 3yrs into enterprise software startup.
Same here. Email in profile. Located in SF and Palo Alto.
(sometimes it helps to mention backgrounds so people can relate. I'm on my 3rd-ish startup, failed twice, digital nomad, 29 years old from the midwest, lived in London, NYC, Philly, and Germany, gf is also doing a startup but in the hardware space, I console her a lot on startup life)
for the significant others of founders - http://lifeofastartupgf.com - being in a relationship with a founder is tough and sometimes, extremely stressful.
That's very kind of you. I used to live in Utah, and still have many connections there. If you don't mind, I'll drop your name if any friends there could benefit from a quick chat with a real person. I'm in San Diego and the reverse offer stands.
No. It's not good for that at all. Depression is a monster. It eats relationships for breakfast. Friends who have not had depression will not understand it. There will be almost nothing they can do to help, but they'll want to help and find it a very frustrating experience. In the long run, those relationships will be very difficult to maintain.
> You’ll also be surprised how much you find other founders are willing to listen.
This is super important. Non-founders often will not get it, in my experience. If you haven't started a company, you often will not have experienced the intense ups and downs, and just how fucked everything can be, even when you pour your life and soul into it, and that there really can be a light on the other side of the tunnel.
One brief tip: it is OK to give up your startup - don't feel that you can't.
If you're in a dark place, do take up the kind offers that people are making in this thread. (I'm paul@circleci.com if you want to chat, and I've publicly fucked up one startup, so I understand.)
>Non-founders often will not get it, in my experience.
This is the kind of self important nonsense I would expect from a high schooler. Sorry, but starting a company is not the only way to feel intense ups and downs, or to put your heart into something only to be disappointed. Maybe thinking that you're problems are completely unique is contributing to the problem. There are lots of other people with their own problems who are either able to relate or at least empathize.
They won't get the particular contexts and situations. To have this conversation with a non-founder you'll be explaining a lot of jargon, background and cause-effect relationships.
> One brief tip: it is OK to give up your startup - don't feel that you can't.
It is hard for me to accept this Paul. If I talk to someone giving up their startup, I'd ask them to hold on for some more time and keep trying.
It has been more than 6 months since we wound up our startup. I have plenty of reasons why it failed. Team conflicts, No focussed idea - and many more. But whatever reasoning I come up with, what hits me when I gave up on my startup and even now, is my lack of persistence and determination. I've failed...
I've moved on physically. But I haven't been able to forgive myself for not being determined and persistent; which is what a founder should have. It haunts me. I wish I could have seen through it, even if it boils down to being a solo-founder.
Great post. I wonder whether organizations like YC might consider offering compensation for seeing a therapist during and after their batch, and even perhaps going as far as recommending a particular local therapist.
I've experienced depression while running a startup, and seeing a therapist was immensely helpful. A therapist who regularly sees founders as clients would have a stronger-than-usual feedback loop on what sorts of advice and recommendations can help.
Edit: While I think the advice of talking to other founders about depression is really excellent for those who have that option, I think back to when I've experienced depression and wonder whether it would have helped. Specifically I'm not sure I was even in a state to be able to act upon that advice. Generally my sense of self-worth was so deflated that it was very difficult to discuss it with anyone, and particularly anyone who I wasn't close friends with. Beyond my co-founders, few of my close friends were entrepreneurs.
wtf is that? yes, depression is bad, but YC should compensate treatment? Entrepreneurship is hard, everyone says that. So you should either expect to deal with consequences or not even get started. What kinda entrepreneur will graduate from YC if they have to be kinder-gardened?
You have obviously never dealt with depression. Harsher words are unnecessary, so I'll leave them out.
Anyone who's reading this: If you're feeling depressed, do not feel any shame whatsoever in seeking a counsellor. Having someone external to your life to talk to is vital.
sillysaurus3, two things:
- if you are so sensitive (especially to random comment on interwebs), you should see specialist BEFORE you even start thinking about entrepreneurship. And make sure your doctor says "yes, you are good to go".
- Yes, i never been through awful depressions. But I been in situation which probably could trigger it. I knew what I am doing, what I am capable of and that I can man it up.
It is ok to seek specialist attention, but then you are not ready for real world yet.
It is like 300lbs fat kid will seek counseling because he can't withstand failures on a track. C'mon. You guys too spoiled here in USA.
This is the same phrase that someone once used to tell Aaron Swartz to deal with his problems.
Yes, i never been through awful depression
It is ok to seek specialist attention, but then you are not ready for real world yet.
It is like 300lbs fat kid will seek counseling because he can't withstand failures on a track.
If you've never been through depression, you shouldn't speak as if you know whether someone is spoiled or haunted.
I'm upset that comments like yours might contribute to people feeling embarrassed for seeking out someone to talk to. Luckily, those who read these comments are smarter than that.
seek all help you need. i do not see problem with that. just don't try to run a distance while not being ready for it. or, more accurate, run it, but expect failure and be ready to go through it to get better at running. and don't think YC or anybody also somehow owe you for failing. failing IS norm.
I congratulate you on feeling like you're an emotional superman, and thus superior and impervious to mental health challenges.
I hope, when you are in a difficult situation, that someone offers you some support and sympathy. When that happens, please remember your unsympathetic attitude here, and use that opportunity to grow a bit as a person.
“Might consider” vs “should”.
There's insane cash and bullshit perks flying around the industry, why not something that genuinely helps the people behind the business, and likely the business itself.
But to be honest, this is a false dichotomy. One shouldn't have to choose between being an hardened veteran or going through therapy. There should be (there is?) a path to entrepreneurship that does not involve unnecessary suffering. Maybe it's a question of outlook.
Not everybody make a fortune doing entrepreneurship and that's why it is hard. If you are psychologically weak and can't man it up - make adjustments and put some cash aside for therapy or living without job for few months.
Your comments in this thread are illogical, antiquated, and misogynistic.
Illogical -- "Not everybody make a fortune doing entrepreneurship and that's why it's hard." It's hard because not everybody gets rich? No, it's hard because you're doing something difficult; the difficulty level has nothing to do with getting rich. Many people work on startups for reasons other than cashing in.
Antiquated -- suffering depression, in no way, makes you "psychologically weak".
Misogynistic -- life tip: if you find yourself using the phrase, "man up", you should reconsider your entire personality.
For the record, I'm currently in one of the downswings of the startup roller coaster ride, and am suffering from depression. You know nothing about me, or my situation, but offer your anti-sympathetic comment regardless.
Seriously, please rethink your opinions. Or, at the very least, stop sharing your thoughts.
To anyone else suffering from mental health issues, especially while running a startup, I strongly suggest internalizing this line: "Failing sucks—there is no way to sugarcoat that. But startups are not life-and-death matters—it’s just work."
Then find a person (therapist, significant other, family, friends) who can offer you support. Someone who is as sympathetic as hippich is ignorant.
I hope more people adopt yours "Failing sucks—there is no way to sugarcoat that. But startups are not life-and-death matters—it’s just work.". Then we will have brighter world ahead of all of us.
Just a tip that I hope is helpful to you. I agree that the parent comment is a bad comment. But it's also a two-sentence comment, and one that was clearly heading for the illegible light grey abyss.
So what I'm suggesting you think about next time you comment is how much weight you're donating to that comment by dignifying it with a long response.
Another thing to consider is that when you take an ill-considered and mean-spirited comment and pick it apart in detail, you beg other people on the thread to critique your analysis. At which point (from several years of experience on HN) we're all off to the races in a meta-debate, the terms of which were set by a self-evidently terrible comment.
When you see terrible comments like this, just vote them down. Or, if you have to reply, vote it down and then write a careful reply, with brevity.
This is hard-won HN wisdom. It's 100% correct and, if everyone would take it to heart, would make a huge difference around here. Flames would still break out, but they'd die off for being oxygen-deprived.
If I may tack on one thing: if you have flagging privileges, please flag comments that are truly bad for HN. You can do that by clicking 'link' above the comment, which will take you to the item page which has a 'flag' link. We monitor those flags and take action based on them.
Yes, I see problem in trying to shift responsibility to YC. But I do not see how your second part is any different? It seems essentially the same, except that wanna-be-entrepreneur would not pay for it out of pocket right away and get compensated later.
>It is like 300lbs fat kid will seek counseling because he can't withstand failures on a track. C'mon. You guys too spoiled here in USA.
You got downvoted because statements like this don't belong on HN, especially in a post specifically discussing depression and the value of counseling and therapy in treating it.
Edit: I will add, I didn't downvote you but I'm really not sure what you were expecting.
Oh, I wasn't kidding myself, I was expecting down votes. I just noticed that some my less "hurting" comments were down voted too, so I guess someone was just letting steam go ofg on all my comments here, including the one you replied to :)
And I don't think these down votes had something to do with comment not belonging here, rather it hit people too close and they let their feelings go. And fun fact - first 5 or so minutes this comment was up voted, so some people here actually share thoughts. Don't just assume something not belong here if it is just you and few other people think so.
I did not really intend to say that counseling by itself is something to be ashamed of (what many assumed is,) but rather that it is wrong to expect that organization like YC should provide counseling, and attracting less business capable people. I don't believe there is lack of people who are ready to challenges.
In the particular case of founders it may be that simply having others (outside their fellow founders) to talk to about their problems might stem off the depression in the first place. Isolation is great for causing depression, especially in the presence of all kinds of stresses and pressures.
Once it passes into depression it simply doesn't matter whether it is "founder depression" or any other kind of depression. For true, major depression, therapy is an absolute must. Pharmaceuticals may also help in the short term. Anything else, including all the awesome people offering an ear in this thread, need to be in support of the professional help.
> I wonder whether organizations like YC might consider offering compensation for seeing a therapist.
YC is not an employer of founders. It's just an investor. They don't give founders money on a regular basis. They do help you find other investors but other than that just give you the usual dose of probably non-applicable advice that might not help you much. The main benefit of getting into YC is saying that you got into YC and a Techcrunch article.
I don't think it is as simple as learning that you can talk about it - you have to learn who to talk about it too. Not everyone wants to hear that things are not working quite as planned - most people would rather just hear "Great!"
The app Secret seems to be a big vent for this feeling. I regularly see people posting about their own companies and feeling overwhelmed. The replies are always supportive and typically several are along the lines of being in the same boat.
Another good resource is the classic "Feeling Good" [1], which describes basic cognitive behavioral therapy in a self-help format. It's old but good and has been validated in clinical trials.
BTW, there is another book by the same author(David Burns) -- "When Panic Attacks" [1]. It is focused on anxiety, not depression, but these two conditions often go hand in hand.
After years of bouncing around therapists, I found CBT. It fit my personality (obsessive, perfectionist, anxious) so well and has altered, for the better, how I approach every thought.
Can someone provide insight on life after a failed startup, in terms of career prospects? Often depression can make you feel as if you're failing on all fronts, that nothing will get better in the foreseeable future. Most of the time that really isn't true. You're often stuck in a temporary rut that your mind drastically exaggerates. But for a founder who's going through a dark time and whose startup ultimately fails, is it easy to pick yourself up again? Can you realistically transition into a more stable job where you'll have more energy to improve your life? I've heard from quite a few that the years spent on a failed startup do not improve your career options, and for a founder that may find themselves depressed running a company, I can't imagine such poor prospects lending any hope.
Yes, it's easy to pick yourself up again. As major life events go, the failure of a startup is not one of the harder ones to metabolize (but it sure feels like it is in the middle of it).
Here's something I wrote a few months ago that covers the same ground:
Just from empirical observation, healthy people will naturally adjust to new circumstances, even terrible ones. It's the time spent transitioning between states that makes us depressed. Otherwise, we'd never be able to overcome the loss of a loved one, a bad diagnosis, bankruptcy, etc. This is why it's important to have someone to talk to so you can get through this period of downtime, and if you notice a friend struggling, go the extra mile to help take her mind off whatever she's going through to avoid something like suicide which, sadly, happened to someone close to me.
On the flip side, this probably explains why the extremely wealthy are usually not happier than the not so wealthy - they've mentally adjusted to their new state.
So if you find yourself depressed and can't talk to anyone, you can at least count on time to heal your wound.
Honestly, and this is all my personal experience so not really generalizable, but finally admitting that my old startup had failed and we were going to shut it down was like getting released from a prison. Instantly you no longer have to worry about the thing you spent all your time worrying about and you can re-balance. It's pretty liberating in all honesty.
Just make sure you have people around to support you and also to use all that new found mental capacity on.
I think the best way to do well after failure is to be intellectually honest with yourself.
Polonius said it best "To thine own self be true."
As an engineer, in Seattle and the Bay Area, you will always have access to jobs.
For non-technical founders, you will have had gained valuable experience that will make you significantly more attractive.
You often have to wear multiple hats, manage your time, focus on what matters, and you gain a lot of experience in finance, shipping product, dealing with investors, dealing with customers, all of which is harder to get if you have a specific role at a larger organization.
Now, there are startups, and there are startups. If you quit your job and tinker at something for a few months to a few years and never really do anything to show for it (ship an MVP, hire an employee or two, raise or attempt to raise money), then, I imagine you didn't really learn anything, but if you were able to do those things, you will have gained real world applicable experience.
Being a founder, was the 2nd best thing that I could have ever done to my career.
My start-up didn't fail, but I ended up leaving because I was slowing it down.
My role now is basically a founder working for a late stage organization. I use lean methodology and entrepreneurship thinking to build new services to explore untapped market opportunities. Instead of raising funding with investors, my company will fund the growth of the service into a full fledged business unit.
Basically, I sucked it up, felt depressed and aimless for about 3 months, and then went and got a job at Google and moved out to California. Had a very successful 5+ year career there where I generally felt that my startup experience was an advantage, although there were definitely a few moments where I thought "I wish I'd joined Google in 2005 instead of wasting 4 years with this startup dream." Such is life though - I remember talking to a Google coworker (who later become a 2-time YC founder with a successful exit) who said "Dude, pretty much everyone at Google wishes they joined 4 years earlier." Now gearing up to try it all again.
I suspect that a major factor that accounted for that was that I founded my startup thinking it was an experiment and not a goal - I needed to know, myself, what I was capable of. If the answer was "Not founding a company, apparently", well, then I had my answer, and I could be happy in a regular company. If the answer was "You're rich now", well, so much the better. At no point did I feel I had to get rich, or that it was my destiny, or that I was worthless if I didn't succeed.
I've also seen some of the posts you mention that describe how years spent on a failed startup do not improve their career options, and the thing that's jumped out about most of them is that the founders there founded a company to escape having a real job, and then continued working on it long past the point where it would be rational to quit and do something else. Of course that'll hurt your prospects - you are losing time that can be spent developing skills and working on projects that actually will have an impact, and it also shows that you're not entirely rational. I also know a number of startup founders who tried it, realized their business concept was flawed (or in some, it was even successful but they just didn't want to do it anymore), and then went to work for Google. You typically don't hear about them on Hacker News, however, because they close that chapter of their life and feel no need to dwell on it and no bitterness to it, and so they don't post.
I'll chime in with my experience. I'm in an emerging market in the middle east (Saudi).
I'm the founder of one of the very few funded Internet companies in the country. Spent the last 24 months fundraising with little luck. My God what a brutal time it's been.
When the company ran out of money, I talked with our leading investor about my need for temporary employment (we were talking with a couple of VCs at the time and I didn't want to commit before hearing from them). He ran an Internet company as well, and I worked with them for a while.
I did that for about six months till I knew the investments were not coming. After that I polished my resume and started contacting people and companies about possible full time jobs.
The first question that came to my mind was about which type position to apply for. Before starting the company, I was a software engineer - so I could always fall back on that. But the years I spent working on the startup forced me to be a generalist. It really worried me to think I wasn't sure what sort of position I should be seeking.
It came down to three main options,
1- managing a software product team (which aligns well with my passion for building things) at a software company.
2- working with investment companies interested in Internet/tech investment. What helped me in this area was that I did my homework when we were discussing the term sheet for our seed investment. And that I blogged and spoke about the experience (Arabic content about the topic is very rare, aside from general entrepreneurship hype).
3- working in digital marketing. This drew upon our experience with digital marketing our product. This was my least favorite option, but it had the most market demand.
One of the things that really helped me in this job hunt was that I was visible to the local industry in my attempts to promote the company. I spoke at events about lessons learned, I blogged about the various experiences... Etc.
I've been to some really dark places and back. If anyone needs to talk, shoot me an e-mail -- slava@rethinkdb.com. I'll buy you coffee, listen, and try to help you find a better place.
I've found it super helpful to surround myself by other entrepreneurs (they "get it" more easily). With the best ones, we can both speak with our guards down, and be open about our vulnerabilities.
I don't have data on this, but I actually believe you increase your odds of success by being open about your insecurities. Among other things, it helps you form connections that are more human.
If anyone in SF would like to talk through stuff, my email is in my profile. I've seen my share of lows, and been helped by other entrepreneurs. Would like to pass it forward.
You might also checkout http://www.startupsanonymo.us/. Two great guys, also founders who have been there and who just listen, for free and offer some feedback.
Great project, way too little exposure for them though.
Am I qualified to chime in? We just shut down today after 4.5 years. ;)
This is very true, and unfortunate. It makes it easy to feel like everyone is being successful except you. I realized this a couple years ago and, when talking to other founders, I just stopped sugar coating things about my situation. I would tell them about our struggles, what was going on, and its affect on me. I don't think I've ever been brought to tears as many times as this year. It is super painful, but lying about it is bad for all involved. You can't get the support you need, nor provide proper support to others.
I can definitely vouch for the dark days. I feel fortunate to be an eternal optimist who knows these things are temporary, but the startup lows are about as low as they come. On top of that, you have things like breakups, family emergencies and other tragedies that are already hard enough to deal with when you are not nursing a struggling company. When those things hit at the same time, it can feel impossible to do anything.
Seriously, as a founder, find a few people you can really confide in and do so. And, don't be afraid to say things aren't going well. You never know what people can do to help. On that note, though today isn't the best day for me to cheer up others, I'm available to chat for any founder going through dark days. joey@earbits.com
> It makes it easy to feel like everyone is being successful except you.
I'd say this is hardly a case only when you're a founder. Throughout life, if you keep high expectations of yourself (which is IMHO a good thing in the long run), you will constantly feel like people around you are succeeding, and you're struggling. I've sometimes felt that way, but the key, for me at least, was to learn to take it easy on myself from time to time and not to be sickly critical of my own work.
Sometimes people feel like everyone else is succeeding and they are failing because, well, it is true to some extent observable by them. (It sounds grim, but in reality you can mostly turn the tables if you invest enough effort.) However, sometimes you can get that feel if you constantly observe the people who simply set the bar lower. Psychological processes that drive us are curious; sometimes they may make us redefine success so that we can appear more successful to other people. But this is not a real, healthy gain: it's a pathological one. A giant, impressive pile of counterfeit, useless money, if you will.
Just my two cents. I'm most likely talking out of my ass :)
By the way, kudos to you and everyone else for being a founder. It sounds like both a great struggle and a fun journey, and everyone with the courage (or the madness!) to go down that path has my deepest respect.
In San Diego. Like Utah poster, let me know if you'd like to grab food. I haven't been a founder until recently, but I've worked as an employee at three previous startups. I'm familiar with some of the feelings and would love to share my experiences if it helps others. Let me know - my twitter handle is on my HN profile.
Father died in final year of college. Only child moved home to mourning mother(of course!) Went on huge sarge to find a women. Did side work, but focused on 2nd startup(1st one in back of my mind to reboot.) Failed. Arrogant and never found a full time job. Was in love and my girl needed to marry to stay in country. She was fine I thought while i went after my dreams. Finally found my 3rd idea and was working on skills. Eventually wife lost faith and cheated(multiple times and not just sex on one, successful man.) Found out, blew my retirement(roth) I made working when I was younger on booze. Lost faith in myself, saw no point in my great idea, mother attacks, no real man to fend off. Sleep in a truck, brain so fried from settling divorce and lack of self confidence or a dime. Idea still viable, even after all this time, timing might be right. "If you are going through hell, keep going."
Thanks for opening up, I can relate to marriage-to-stay-together situation. I honestly hope you are feeling better. I upvoted because I feel like more people should see it.
>>> Why was I down voted
Don't worry, probably just some kiddo from reddit :)
Yea, it is kind of sad that the only person opening up is seemingly chastised, when the whole point of the article is such. Btw, my cofounder of my first 2 startups is entrepreneur of the year in certain states and programs(missed that one.)
I upvoted. Those are dark times indeed, I empathise.
Keep on keepin' on, you'll get there. As an aside, this is evidently a poor forum for this discussion.
To the rest: the trough following a failure isn't depression, it's merely a stepping stone on a greater journey. Learn from it and move on, don't liken it to depression, which is for some, a day-to-day reality.
My first thought on reading this: "Great, but who shouldn't I talk to?"
I've known founders whose VCs took their "down" moments as weakness. They "helped" them dilute to pave the way for future takeover. They exploited founders' weakness and talked about them behind their backs. Who can you really trust when you and your company are at their weakest?
Thanks for bringing this up. Even worse is trying to raise a round of funding when you can barely raise yourself out of bed in the morning. VC/Investors are probably the last people I would ever talk to about the low feelings during dark startup days.
Great point, "mentors" and VCs are there to make an ROI. The best thing to have is a network of other founders you can meet, people who have no stake in your success or failure.
I'm a developer with bipolar disorder. I gave a about it last year at Business of Software called Developers, Entrepreneurs and Depression that some founders have found useful:
Same diagnosis. I struggle so much with wanting to help others and wanting not to tell anyone. Wanting to talk to my bosses so they can understand and wanting my privacy. Wanting not to use it as an excuse, or get special treatment but then being so angry when they don't get it (how could they?).
Also struggling with starting something and the need to finish it the same night. That one hit hard. The anxiety while I work on something only goes away when I finish, so longer projects are impossible. To avoid the pain I just stop trying to work on them.
I'm trying to get better with medication and a doctor and it is certainly better than constantly thinking about suicide but I worry that I'm never going to be productive.
Thanks for so much for your talk. And having the courage to put such a big part of yourself out there to help others.
I can definitely relate to this. There are definitely times when it's hard to talk to anybody... and I don't know about you guys, but with some topics I actually find it harder to talk to someone I know, than, say, a random stranger at a bar. Luckily I have at least one or two friends, who, for whatever reason, I can talk to about "founder depression" issues more easily than other people. Strangely enough, it's not even that they're my closer friends, they're just people where the nature of the relationship feels "different" in some subtle way.
I also find that being more frank, than is probably expected, on forums like this is somewhat cathartic. If you were to dig through my old posts (don't waste your time, it's not actually that interesting) you'll find my admitting to suicidal ideation, and talking openly about how I think I'd off myself in the "doomsday" scenario. I hope it never comes to that, and I doubt it will, but something about this almost pseudonymous forum leaves me feeling more comfortable about saying certain things. This is true even though my "real life" identity is clearly spelled out in my profile and is trivially easy to find. shrug
Anyway, I'm no mental health expert, but if anybody just needs a friendly ear to listen to them vent, feel free to give me a shout. If you're in the RTP, NC area, I'm happy to meet for coffee/food/drinks or whatever. Email and contact info in profile.
>I can definitely relate to this. There are definitely times when it's hard to talk to anybody... and I don't know about you guys, but with some topics I actually find it harder to talk to someone I know, than, say, a random stranger at a bar. Luckily I have at least one or two friends, who, for whatever reason, I can talk to about "founder depression" issues more easily than other people. Strangely enough, it's not even that they're my closer friends, they're just people where the nature of the relationship feels "different" in some subtle way
That's because you're trying to maintain / live up to a reputation you've set to people close to you.
You believe that if you admit fault, they will love you / want you less.
Where if you talk to people that aren't close, you have no reputation to maintain and their love doesn't mean as much.
When I went solo-fulltime on my startup, I started a Mailchimp newsletter and asked all my friends who I thought cared about the startup to join (I'm just shy of 100 subscribers now). It's been incredibly useful for battling loneliness; every few weeks I talk about a success, a failure, or maybe just something random. It's helped make the whole process less isolating; I always get personal replies after I send one.
I usually tell people it's "peaks and valleys". The peaks are really, really high, and the valleys are really, really low. But that's the whole point, isn't it? It's the ride that makes everything worth it.
You can't afford to follow this advice. Saying you're crushing it is part of your 24/7 job description.
There is a story of the founder who had just put a round together with a VC. Then, privately, the founder confided to a mutual friend, over dinner, about some of the difficulties. Result? The friend told the VC, the VC pulled out, and cited this conversation, saying that it was because his mutual friend said the company was having difficulties.
Doesn't sound like much of a "friend". Honestly if you're facing depression you can't afford not to talk. But ideally you would find someone trustworthy to talk to.
well okay but Sam's blog post makes it seem like it's almost a coincidence that everyone happens to talk all the time about crushing it. It's not. It's part of the job description. You have to learn to do it.
1) plural of anecdote is not data
2) that VC was probably looking for an excuse to pull out, would have pulled out anyway for some other bullshit reason
Stories like that exists, true, but so what? The moral of your story is not that one shouldn't talk to friends about their actual situation, but rather that some VCs are not the best people. Also, surround yourself with smarter friends.
209 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 327 ms ] threadIf you're in San Francisco, we can also get coffee.
http://sbala.org/about-me/
(sometimes it helps to mention backgrounds so people can relate. I'm on my 3rd-ish startup, failed twice, digital nomad, 29 years old from the midwest, lived in London, NYC, Philly, and Germany, gf is also doing a startup but in the hardware space, I console her a lot on startup life)
My wife keeps saying she should organize a Startup Wives reality show, but I think we'd have to manufacture a lot of the drama.
Book written by Brad Feld and Amy (his spouse)
It's not like people have to open their souls on their blogs.
But when high profile individuals like Sam "proclaim" that it's okay to talk about this, somehow it feels a lot safer to open up to people in person.
Especially if they're in a similar situation.
If you are in Utah, we can grab food.
Hyperbole and a Half has what I think is the best "layman" explanation for what depression is really like: http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2011/10/adventures-in-...
This is super important. Non-founders often will not get it, in my experience. If you haven't started a company, you often will not have experienced the intense ups and downs, and just how fucked everything can be, even when you pour your life and soul into it, and that there really can be a light on the other side of the tunnel.
One brief tip: it is OK to give up your startup - don't feel that you can't.
If you're in a dark place, do take up the kind offers that people are making in this thread. (I'm paul@circleci.com if you want to chat, and I've publicly fucked up one startup, so I understand.)
This is the kind of self important nonsense I would expect from a high schooler. Sorry, but starting a company is not the only way to feel intense ups and downs, or to put your heart into something only to be disappointed. Maybe thinking that you're problems are completely unique is contributing to the problem. There are lots of other people with their own problems who are either able to relate or at least empathize.
It is hard for me to accept this Paul. If I talk to someone giving up their startup, I'd ask them to hold on for some more time and keep trying.
It has been more than 6 months since we wound up our startup. I have plenty of reasons why it failed. Team conflicts, No focussed idea - and many more. But whatever reasoning I come up with, what hits me when I gave up on my startup and even now, is my lack of persistence and determination. I've failed...
I've moved on physically. But I haven't been able to forgive myself for not being determined and persistent; which is what a founder should have. It haunts me. I wish I could have seen through it, even if it boils down to being a solo-founder.
I've experienced depression while running a startup, and seeing a therapist was immensely helpful. A therapist who regularly sees founders as clients would have a stronger-than-usual feedback loop on what sorts of advice and recommendations can help.
Edit: While I think the advice of talking to other founders about depression is really excellent for those who have that option, I think back to when I've experienced depression and wonder whether it would have helped. Specifically I'm not sure I was even in a state to be able to act upon that advice. Generally my sense of self-worth was so deflated that it was very difficult to discuss it with anyone, and particularly anyone who I wasn't close friends with. Beyond my co-founders, few of my close friends were entrepreneurs.
Anyone who's reading this: If you're feeling depressed, do not feel any shame whatsoever in seeking a counsellor. Having someone external to your life to talk to is vital.
This is the same phrase that someone once used to tell Aaron Swartz to deal with his problems.
Yes, i never been through awful depression
It is ok to seek specialist attention, but then you are not ready for real world yet.
It is like 300lbs fat kid will seek counseling because he can't withstand failures on a track.
If you've never been through depression, you shouldn't speak as if you know whether someone is spoiled or haunted.
I'm upset that comments like yours might contribute to people feeling embarrassed for seeking out someone to talk to. Luckily, those who read these comments are smarter than that.
I hope, when you are in a difficult situation, that someone offers you some support and sympathy. When that happens, please remember your unsympathetic attitude here, and use that opportunity to grow a bit as a person.
But to be honest, this is a false dichotomy. One shouldn't have to choose between being an hardened veteran or going through therapy. There should be (there is?) a path to entrepreneurship that does not involve unnecessary suffering. Maybe it's a question of outlook.
Illogical -- "Not everybody make a fortune doing entrepreneurship and that's why it's hard." It's hard because not everybody gets rich? No, it's hard because you're doing something difficult; the difficulty level has nothing to do with getting rich. Many people work on startups for reasons other than cashing in.
Antiquated -- suffering depression, in no way, makes you "psychologically weak".
Misogynistic -- life tip: if you find yourself using the phrase, "man up", you should reconsider your entire personality.
For the record, I'm currently in one of the downswings of the startup roller coaster ride, and am suffering from depression. You know nothing about me, or my situation, but offer your anti-sympathetic comment regardless.
Seriously, please rethink your opinions. Or, at the very least, stop sharing your thoughts.
To anyone else suffering from mental health issues, especially while running a startup, I strongly suggest internalizing this line: "Failing sucks—there is no way to sugarcoat that. But startups are not life-and-death matters—it’s just work."
Then find a person (therapist, significant other, family, friends) who can offer you support. Someone who is as sympathetic as hippich is ignorant.
So what I'm suggesting you think about next time you comment is how much weight you're donating to that comment by dignifying it with a long response.
Another thing to consider is that when you take an ill-considered and mean-spirited comment and pick it apart in detail, you beg other people on the thread to critique your analysis. At which point (from several years of experience on HN) we're all off to the races in a meta-debate, the terms of which were set by a self-evidently terrible comment.
When you see terrible comments like this, just vote them down. Or, if you have to reply, vote it down and then write a careful reply, with brevity.
If I may tack on one thing: if you have flagging privileges, please flag comments that are truly bad for HN. You can do that by clicking 'link' above the comment, which will take you to the item page which has a 'flag' link. We monitor those flags and take action based on them.
I think what he/she meant to say was "provide therapy/counseling services at no charge to entreprenuership."
You got downvoted because statements like this don't belong on HN, especially in a post specifically discussing depression and the value of counseling and therapy in treating it.
Edit: I will add, I didn't downvote you but I'm really not sure what you were expecting.
And I don't think these down votes had something to do with comment not belonging here, rather it hit people too close and they let their feelings go. And fun fact - first 5 or so minutes this comment was up voted, so some people here actually share thoughts. Don't just assume something not belong here if it is just you and few other people think so.
I did not really intend to say that counseling by itself is something to be ashamed of (what many assumed is,) but rather that it is wrong to expect that organization like YC should provide counseling, and attracting less business capable people. I don't believe there is lack of people who are ready to challenges.
Once it passes into depression it simply doesn't matter whether it is "founder depression" or any other kind of depression. For true, major depression, therapy is an absolute must. Pharmaceuticals may also help in the short term. Anything else, including all the awesome people offering an ear in this thread, need to be in support of the professional help.
YC is not an employer of founders. It's just an investor. They don't give founders money on a regular basis. They do help you find other investors but other than that just give you the usual dose of probably non-applicable advice that might not help you much. The main benefit of getting into YC is saying that you got into YC and a Techcrunch article.
[1] http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0380810336?pc_redir=1402628516...
BTW, there is another book by the same author(David Burns) -- "When Panic Attacks" [1]. It is focused on anxiety, not depression, but these two conditions often go hand in hand.
[1] http://amzn.com/076792083X
Here's something I wrote a few months ago that covers the same ground:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7140231#up_7140423
On the flip side, this probably explains why the extremely wealthy are usually not happier than the not so wealthy - they've mentally adjusted to their new state.
So if you find yourself depressed and can't talk to anyone, you can at least count on time to heal your wound.
Just make sure you have people around to support you and also to use all that new found mental capacity on.
Polonius said it best "To thine own self be true."
As an engineer, in Seattle and the Bay Area, you will always have access to jobs.
For non-technical founders, you will have had gained valuable experience that will make you significantly more attractive.
You often have to wear multiple hats, manage your time, focus on what matters, and you gain a lot of experience in finance, shipping product, dealing with investors, dealing with customers, all of which is harder to get if you have a specific role at a larger organization.
Now, there are startups, and there are startups. If you quit your job and tinker at something for a few months to a few years and never really do anything to show for it (ship an MVP, hire an employee or two, raise or attempt to raise money), then, I imagine you didn't really learn anything, but if you were able to do those things, you will have gained real world applicable experience.
Being a founder, was the 2nd best thing that I could have ever done to my career.
My start-up didn't fail, but I ended up leaving because I was slowing it down.
My role now is basically a founder working for a late stage organization. I use lean methodology and entrepreneurship thinking to build new services to explore untapped market opportunities. Instead of raising funding with investors, my company will fund the growth of the service into a full fledged business unit.
http://diffle-history.blogspot.com/
Basically, I sucked it up, felt depressed and aimless for about 3 months, and then went and got a job at Google and moved out to California. Had a very successful 5+ year career there where I generally felt that my startup experience was an advantage, although there were definitely a few moments where I thought "I wish I'd joined Google in 2005 instead of wasting 4 years with this startup dream." Such is life though - I remember talking to a Google coworker (who later become a 2-time YC founder with a successful exit) who said "Dude, pretty much everyone at Google wishes they joined 4 years earlier." Now gearing up to try it all again.
I suspect that a major factor that accounted for that was that I founded my startup thinking it was an experiment and not a goal - I needed to know, myself, what I was capable of. If the answer was "Not founding a company, apparently", well, then I had my answer, and I could be happy in a regular company. If the answer was "You're rich now", well, so much the better. At no point did I feel I had to get rich, or that it was my destiny, or that I was worthless if I didn't succeed.
I've also seen some of the posts you mention that describe how years spent on a failed startup do not improve their career options, and the thing that's jumped out about most of them is that the founders there founded a company to escape having a real job, and then continued working on it long past the point where it would be rational to quit and do something else. Of course that'll hurt your prospects - you are losing time that can be spent developing skills and working on projects that actually will have an impact, and it also shows that you're not entirely rational. I also know a number of startup founders who tried it, realized their business concept was flawed (or in some, it was even successful but they just didn't want to do it anymore), and then went to work for Google. You typically don't hear about them on Hacker News, however, because they close that chapter of their life and feel no need to dwell on it and no bitterness to it, and so they don't post.
I'm the founder of one of the very few funded Internet companies in the country. Spent the last 24 months fundraising with little luck. My God what a brutal time it's been.
When the company ran out of money, I talked with our leading investor about my need for temporary employment (we were talking with a couple of VCs at the time and I didn't want to commit before hearing from them). He ran an Internet company as well, and I worked with them for a while.
I did that for about six months till I knew the investments were not coming. After that I polished my resume and started contacting people and companies about possible full time jobs.
The first question that came to my mind was about which type position to apply for. Before starting the company, I was a software engineer - so I could always fall back on that. But the years I spent working on the startup forced me to be a generalist. It really worried me to think I wasn't sure what sort of position I should be seeking.
It came down to three main options,
1- managing a software product team (which aligns well with my passion for building things) at a software company.
2- working with investment companies interested in Internet/tech investment. What helped me in this area was that I did my homework when we were discussing the term sheet for our seed investment. And that I blogged and spoke about the experience (Arabic content about the topic is very rare, aside from general entrepreneurship hype).
3- working in digital marketing. This drew upon our experience with digital marketing our product. This was my least favorite option, but it had the most market demand.
One of the things that really helped me in this job hunt was that I was visible to the local industry in my attempts to promote the company. I spoke at events about lessons learned, I blogged about the various experiences... Etc.
I don't have data on this, but I actually believe you increase your odds of success by being open about your insecurities. Among other things, it helps you form connections that are more human.
If anyone in SF would like to talk through stuff, my email is in my profile. I've seen my share of lows, and been helped by other entrepreneurs. Would like to pass it forward.
Great project, way too little exposure for them though.
This is very true, and unfortunate. It makes it easy to feel like everyone is being successful except you. I realized this a couple years ago and, when talking to other founders, I just stopped sugar coating things about my situation. I would tell them about our struggles, what was going on, and its affect on me. I don't think I've ever been brought to tears as many times as this year. It is super painful, but lying about it is bad for all involved. You can't get the support you need, nor provide proper support to others.
I can definitely vouch for the dark days. I feel fortunate to be an eternal optimist who knows these things are temporary, but the startup lows are about as low as they come. On top of that, you have things like breakups, family emergencies and other tragedies that are already hard enough to deal with when you are not nursing a struggling company. When those things hit at the same time, it can feel impossible to do anything.
Seriously, as a founder, find a few people you can really confide in and do so. And, don't be afraid to say things aren't going well. You never know what people can do to help. On that note, though today isn't the best day for me to cheer up others, I'm available to chat for any founder going through dark days. joey@earbits.com
I'd say this is hardly a case only when you're a founder. Throughout life, if you keep high expectations of yourself (which is IMHO a good thing in the long run), you will constantly feel like people around you are succeeding, and you're struggling. I've sometimes felt that way, but the key, for me at least, was to learn to take it easy on myself from time to time and not to be sickly critical of my own work.
Sometimes people feel like everyone else is succeeding and they are failing because, well, it is true to some extent observable by them. (It sounds grim, but in reality you can mostly turn the tables if you invest enough effort.) However, sometimes you can get that feel if you constantly observe the people who simply set the bar lower. Psychological processes that drive us are curious; sometimes they may make us redefine success so that we can appear more successful to other people. But this is not a real, healthy gain: it's a pathological one. A giant, impressive pile of counterfeit, useless money, if you will.
Just my two cents. I'm most likely talking out of my ass :)
By the way, kudos to you and everyone else for being a founder. It sounds like both a great struggle and a fun journey, and everyone with the courage (or the madness!) to go down that path has my deepest respect.
>>> Why was I down voted
Don't worry, probably just some kiddo from reddit :)
To the rest: the trough following a failure isn't depression, it's merely a stepping stone on a greater journey. Learn from it and move on, don't liken it to depression, which is for some, a day-to-day reality.
I've known founders whose VCs took their "down" moments as weakness. They "helped" them dilute to pave the way for future takeover. They exploited founders' weakness and talked about them behind their backs. Who can you really trust when you and your company are at their weakest?
http://businessofsoftware.org/2013/11/developers-entrepreneu...
Also struggling with starting something and the need to finish it the same night. That one hit hard. The anxiety while I work on something only goes away when I finish, so longer projects are impossible. To avoid the pain I just stop trying to work on them.
I'm trying to get better with medication and a doctor and it is certainly better than constantly thinking about suicide but I worry that I'm never going to be productive.
Thanks for so much for your talk. And having the courage to put such a big part of yourself out there to help others.
I also find that being more frank, than is probably expected, on forums like this is somewhat cathartic. If you were to dig through my old posts (don't waste your time, it's not actually that interesting) you'll find my admitting to suicidal ideation, and talking openly about how I think I'd off myself in the "doomsday" scenario. I hope it never comes to that, and I doubt it will, but something about this almost pseudonymous forum leaves me feeling more comfortable about saying certain things. This is true even though my "real life" identity is clearly spelled out in my profile and is trivially easy to find. shrug
Anyway, I'm no mental health expert, but if anybody just needs a friendly ear to listen to them vent, feel free to give me a shout. If you're in the RTP, NC area, I'm happy to meet for coffee/food/drinks or whatever. Email and contact info in profile.
That's because you're trying to maintain / live up to a reputation you've set to people close to you.
You believe that if you admit fault, they will love you / want you less.
Where if you talk to people that aren't close, you have no reputation to maintain and their love doesn't mean as much.
There is a story of the founder who had just put a round together with a VC. Then, privately, the founder confided to a mutual friend, over dinner, about some of the difficulties. Result? The friend told the VC, the VC pulled out, and cited this conversation, saying that it was because his mutual friend said the company was having difficulties.
You can't afford to talk.
There are always many many people you can and should talk to in confidence. Many examples have offered their email addresses above.