Ask HN: What to do when you are successful, hate it, and can't seem to change?
A bit of background. I am a self-taught but successful software engineer. I write, speak and teach on engineering topics constantly. I also have a background, due to family, in business so I understand business topics quite well. My educational background is in law, though I dropped, because I did not like law, and I love software engineering!
Over the last decade or so I have consistently been put in positions at companies where I engineer AND help with business development/product operations. I have always been hired as an engineer but within short order I am snagged for business advising as well. This hasn’t been all bad. I have been involved with the successful sale of 2 startups, soon to be 3, worked with some brilliant people at the top of some Fortune 50 companies, etc. The problem is I don’t enjoy meeting with executives at 8pm over drinks to try to discuss the next big deal. I don’t like to make presentations late into the night to put in front of Venture Capital, Series A/B investors, or Executives. I still write software with a team all day and then I am “invited” (told I must) meet with others well into the evening for the good of the business. I come home late at night and I am upset, irritable, hating what I do. Some say it is depression, but would I want a medication to fix what is obviously a lifestyle problem? Some say I should change jobs, but I do that about every 6 months to 2 years now.
So, HN, has anyone else been in a situation like this and found a way to just get back to engineering? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
60 comments
[ 4.2 ms ] story [ 127 ms ] threadMaybe you can just consult? That makes is easier to turn down work you don't want. And don't list your business experience on your resume/LinkedIn profile.
What do you do? If quality of life is more important to you than money, you say no to the recruiting. Otherwise, you say yes. We can't make this decision for you. Everyone's value ordering is different.
Frankly, I shouldn't be complaining as I have not been fired or laid off and a lot of others have it much harder in this job market. But getting into these situations and then looking up every 6 months and saying "Damn it, here I am again" gets old.
What we are talking about is that it's not easy for companies to find people who are actually good at tech (not just faking it) and can also speak to a corporate room of C-level executives with ease. If you can do that, expect to get moved out of the engineering role within a year, unless you say no, in which case you'll be gone.
The problem is, it's never worth it. The equity will always be less than the higher ups, even when it's given, and even when it actually is worth something. Side note - I was once given 150,000 shares of a company, without asking for it, and I knew it wouldn't be worth a thing. I was also given 6,000 shares of a solid company, also without asking. No equity I've ever been given was worth what the company took to get it - which is, they need what you have - just pure brain power, stress and the ability to compete at an global technical level, and to translate that into shareholder value.
If I pour that much of myself into a company, it's going to be for a lot more than 50K of stock, or 100K. I've built systems that the company turned around and within a year it had netted $1.5 billion contract (yes, billion), which is what I was paid to do...but under no circumstances was I fooled into thinking I was paid what I was actually worth.
What I was getting at was the second aspect of it which was the "out of bounds time" alluded to when OP said "The problem is I don’t enjoy meeting with executives at 8pm over drinks to try to discuss the next big deal. I don’t like to make presentations late into the night to put in front of Venture Capital, Series A/B investors, or Executives." I was focusing on the "8pm" and "late into the night" parts of the phrase which is more lifestyle / time overreach than the other aspect.
OTOH, I've been lucky enough to get stock which came out to be worth quite a bit (granted it took quite a bit of effort to make that so). I've also had the stock which was worth very little in comparison to the effort. It's often a difficult thing to weigh as one is weighing effort, the market, and a lot of external things.
As a "doer", we are frequently not paid what I think we should be. To get paid that I think requires often taking on a lot more responsibilities that some of us don't often want to handle (sales, marketing, hr, legal, etc. ... ie running a company).
But, those are excuses that I constantly make. Your advise is solid, and much appreciated. I need to really strengthen up and just say no.
Use an external constraint and pre-disqualify yourself. So one day when you're not being asked out, ask to have a talk with the founders.
"Hey guys, had this talk with my significant other last night and they told me that while it was okay to put in some extra hours, I couldn't be burning both ends of the candle by doing both tech and business work. It makes me impossible to get along with, cranky and miserable."
This sets your limits, puts the onus on some outside party, and presents the founders with a constraint at a time when the constrain is meaningless -- after all, they don't need you now. Then when an actual event comes up, gently remind them that you've already had this conversation. Offer to talk sometime during the day. Hell, have the biz folks come by the next standup. That way they can talk to the whole team.
The point is, you're not trying to hurt the founders, you're just placing some reasonable constraints on what's possible and what's not possible. It's not your idea (and in reality, it's not, it's just the way you are), and it's not the end of the world.
At the end of the day, you have to set limits. There are tricks to setting limits that reduce conflict. You should use them. But as long as you're needed for something you'd prefer not to do, you'll never completely eliminate that stress.
Great engineers set their own rules. One of the best I know gets in at 9 and leaves at 4. His schedule is set and no-one questions it because he's obviously a better and more productive engineer than the rest of us!
Do you think you can _and_ should improve on this? Awesome. Introspection and room for improvement for the win!
Are the ones dragging you to late meetings shareholders? Or maybe they work on commission? Or perhaps there's a big bonus waiting for them but not for you ? Find out whether money is the problem or not, it's easier to find the solution once you understand others' motivations.
I'm guessing you're more of a generalist than a specialist in one field and that's partially why you see things the way business would like "tech" to see. It's actually a good thing and helps you build better software. In the worst case just change job one more time, sometimes it takes longer than one or two switches to find the right place. Good luck!
There's your problem. Stop outing yourself. Don't give your opinion on things you don't want to be dragged into. Zip your lip. Then you probably don't have to say "no" to anything because they probably won't ask. Give opinions on those things that are related to the domain you desire to work in and then make polite noises about "not my area" or something if pressed on these other things that you don't really want to work on.
(If they suggest you need to suck it up and do both, just laugh it off as the wishful thinking that it is.)
Maybe the OP is thinking 100K for 50 more years.
So either retire penniless in your 30s and never work in tech again, or retire with $5M in the bank in your 30s and never work in tech again.
Also if your gross is say $120K and you keep about $90K of it and save most of it to retire, living off maybe $30K which is more than most Americans get, 5e6/30e3 = a mere 166 years of retirement, assuming your investments return about the real world inflation rate, which is a fairly realistic goal. Of course $5M in the bank and $60K/yr invested means you will have to start your savings program at age -60 or so if you want to retire in your 30s.
Its probably a lot simpler to just contract like my Dad did. Do your thing when you need the cash, and when you don't need the cash, don't work for awhile. Nobody wants the programming contractor to advise the board at the end of a 16 hour day, especially when they see your hourly overtime rate.
How would you explain the gaps in employment? It seems to be a popular question.
Just because some parts of the tech industry fetishize young developers doesn't mean all of them do.
There shouldn't be much difference between the level of savings needed to retire at (say) 35 and (say) 45. In either case, you want enough that with low-end-of-plausible stock market growth, you're taking out less than growth is putting back.
There's some research around what level of growth it's safe to assume; how much you trust it depends on whether you think the past behaviour of the US stock market is a good predictor of the future behaviour of whatever you invest in. I suggest (but this is Not Financial Advice and I am Not a Financial Advisor) working on the basis that you can probably get ~2.5% of your investment out per year pretty safely. (Usually it'll grow more than that, even after inflation. That cushions you a bit against cases where bad things happen. I assume you are willing to trim your lifestyle back a bit in bad times.)
That means you need about 40 years' worth of spending in your savings. That would be $5M if you are spending $125k/year. In my opinion (about which you need not care), if you are spending $125k/year then either you are earning so much that saying $5M isn't going to be a big challenge for you, or else something is amiss with your priorities.
Let's say you spend $5k/month normally, as a round number. That works out to between $1.5M ($5000x12/3%) and $2M ($5000x12/4%) to sustain your living expenses indefinitely with no further income.
Let's assume the common 4% withdrawal rate. $5 million will provide you with $200,000 a year for all eternity. This assumes you never do anything for extra money. It further assumes you never put any money back into the investment (because, you know, you're not saving for retirement anymore).
Going even more conservative with a 3% withdrawal rate you'll be pulling $150,000 a year.
Interest is beautiful, living frugally combined with interest is even more so. Supposing you wanted to pull $30,000 yearly you'd only need $750k.
More on this at mrmoneymustache.com
I was talking about a simple lifestyle to get lattes and travel and work on your own projects, you're talking about bugattis and the rivieria.
In my opinion you have a seriously distorted view of whats important.
You're probably right that I overestimated the amount. Since frugal investing isn't my goal in life, $5M was a made up figure. What I'm saying is that the number is higher than it might seem.
It depends on how aggressive you are with your financial planning. Remember, this is the rest of your life you're planning for. Are you just going to get lattes and travel until you're dead, or do you want to raise a family? Do you want your children to go to good schools? Do your projects require capital investment to be successful? Do you want to be an angel investor? Are you interested in philanthropy?
Counting on 6% interest in perpetuity is reasonable, but is probably more aggressive than I'd be willing to go. What happens if the stock market takes a dive? It's not out of the realm of possibility that your net worth could be cut by 30-40%. That means that your interest income would be cut by the same amount.
Also, once you're out of the industry, it's hard to just come back and get another job. The software industry is pretty strong right now, but will it be in 10 or 20 years? Will you still have the skills you need to compete, after years of working on whatever you want to work on?
Let's say your planning figure is 4% instead of 6%. Although $1M is a lot of money, if you're talking about living off the interest, each $1M yields $40K gross a year at 4%. After 20% in capital gains taxes, it's $32K. If you have to pay AMT (which you will, if you're an American making money off of investments), expect an effective tax rate closer to 30%. This means that you can expect a net yield of $28K in interest per $1M of capital.
Also, remember, if you're spending every cent of interest that your investments earn, they will never compound, and you will be at the mercy of inflation (about 2%) and your risk exposure will be dramatically higher. You should try to plan to have net income that you can reinvest.
$5M gives you $200K gross or $140K net. That's a very handsome income, but if you want money to reinvest and you want to keep a conservative risk profile, it's not Bugatti-Riviera money. If you're willing to burn down your initial capital, it's a lot easier, but then you have to consider your risk -- and whether you're interested in leaving an inheritance.
Regardless of the actual amount you're talking about saving, my point is that it's probably more money than it seems like, and it takes a tremendous amount of time to save it working 9-5.
I was talking about a simple lifestyle to get lattes and travel and work on your own projects, you're talking about bugattis and the rivieria.
In my opinion you have a seriously distorted view of whats important.
Medication is not the only solution to depression. The internet is a bad therapist. Consider a real one.
Sounds like you're a bit long in the tooth. Has your development experience gone stale? What's your area of expertise?
I agree with nobodysfool who says to revise your resume. Gear it completely towards software engineering. Remove your law degree from your resume.
Then, look for new work.
You should argue that the sabbatical is a years off unpaid holiday. Take a break, but still have connections and commitments to the company.
Also something that might help is trying to keep your thoughts for yourself(keep your mouth shut) in meetings for things not directly related to engineering or your team's work aspect. This might be a bit harder at first, been there and it takes a good exercise but at least for me it was in a company where we didn't have meetings at 8PM with execs.
when he quit and came to work for us, the first thing he said was "i want to make it crystal clear that i do not want to be an executive at your company. i want to be a senior engineer. i want to stay at home with my family and take care of your technical needs."
when you are clear with your requirements, and you get clear requirements from the employer, good situations can arise.
having said all that, he didn't need the extra money that comes with being an executive - he's doing just fine - some people do need the money, however. it's just a question of personal priorities.
If you're changing jobs alot because you can't find one that suits your needs then you should be more aggressive and thorough in your search. Let those companies court you, not the other way around, and get everything you're hired to do written into your contract. If you're changing jobs that often just because you're supposed to in order to be considered successful then that's probably the biggest problem.
Freelancing is an option I guess, aswell as starting your own company without the intention to sell. That still makes for alot of work on the business side of things though.
Lastly, you seem like a guy who doesn't have too much trouble finding a job so risking your job by saying no seems like a small risk to take considering what you could gain. Also I'ld say that 9 out of 10 times you're just calling their bluff. You are an investment for any employer. If they lose you after 1-2 years they've basically thrown every penny they've ever given you out the window.
If you are not happy with your job/life, then you are not successful. Take a pay cut and tell the business dept to fuck off, or go work somewhere else. Having money in the bank grants you that luxury.
OR
Propose a compromise: you will consult on biz dev, but during day work hours.
Face it-- you're a unicorn. There's NO way you can just do Software Engineering. You're simply not wired that way. As for the stuff you hate to do, the challenge is mitigate and manage. Be upfront on your boundaries, set expectations. Moving forward-- meetings are on your terms and schedule. Applicable to your situation, here's a good read on setting the frame and prizing> http://pitchanything.com/book/