How about you pay me to recline into my lap. I'm a tall guy. Each and every time I take a flight someone tries to recline because my lap is a seemingly good spot to rest. However given my stature I can just push their right back up into it's upright position with my knees. There isn't much to be done about that, is there?
The reclining feature doesn't go "into" your lap. No need for a ridiculous hyperbole. Either way, the person paid for that seat and if the airlines choose to put in a reclining feature, your anger should be directed at them and not attempting to harass the person merely trying to use the seat they paid for.
Okay, if that's how you feel, there are plenty of options. Choose a different airline, take your chances that someone reclines in their seat, sit in the front row, check in earlier or pay more money. Those are all valid options.
The idea that you somehow control the right of the person in front of you to recline (a right which they actually paid money to use) is rather selfish and not a valid option.
The idea that someone gets to invade my personal space is rather selfish and not a valid option. If I don't want you imposing on me, then I will make sure that damn well doesn't happen.
Sorry, it's not your personal space. The airline you purchased a ticket on sold that space to the passenger in front of you. Don't like it? There are plenty of other options in which you can expend your energy/time/money to get a seat that suits your comfort. You don't have the right to take away what the person in front of you bought from the airline. It is stealing, plain and simple. They may choose to donate it to you if you persist, but it's their prerogative.
If you are in my fucking lap, it is my personal space. They don't have a fucking right to sit in my space and cause me suffering for a price tag. It is not stealing you fucking dense jackass.
There's stealing involved, but it's the airline that committed it. They sold the right to recline to the person in front of 67726e, and the right to be in the same space to 67726e. The right to occupy the same space was sold twice to different people, and at least one was a fraudulent sale.
You seem to be too quick to label the person in front of you 'selfish' when it is you who expects him to give up his comfort he paid for so that you can enjoy one that you did not pay for. He has no such obligations. I think someone else is being a selfish freeloader here.
Inside an aircraft, space is for sale, if you need more, pay for it, or rail against airlines to provide you better service. The person in front of you is simply collecting what he/she paid for.
To add, I'm personally not bothered by it. I find it impossible to work or sleep on flights and have chalked off time spent on airliners as a (relatively) short period of being mildly uncomfortable for the purpose of getting somewhere quickly.
Actually, I'm pretty tall. It is at the least awkward, if not very uncomfortable for someone to recline. It depends on the plane, but those interstate mosquitoes you get on flights between small cities are the absolute worst.
I know it's en vogue to treat everything as an economic exercise to show off that business course you took for your undergrad, but some things are really a matter of being a decent person. I've asked people to please not recline when it's a problem. Usually people are cool with it on the short flights where it really is a problem. Of course you sometimes get an indignant person who needs their 30 minutes of "relaxation" and that's when I push them up. If they prioritize their comfort over mine, why shouldn't I do the same.
Okay, in the same vein, maybe that person isn't a decent person. You still don't have the right to force them to not recline and calling them "indignant" shows the same kind of attitude, albeit a lesser scale, that caused the Newerk-Denver incident.
If I politely ask you to not cause me discomfort and you do not comply, that is a problem. If you think you get to cause other people suffering for a dollar, you are a fucked person.
Your anger is completely misguided. You should be either mad at the airline for selling you something that didn't suit your needs or mad at yourself for purchasing a product that didn't suit your needs. It's like purchasing the wrong size suit and going to the store and bitching at them to give you some more fabric so you can be comfortable in your too small suit. It's utterly inane.
Because you have no right to do so, you're just being a jerk. If it's such a problem for you, buy 2 seats on every flight so you can ensure the seat in front of you is empty.
So sometimes you get a person who won't let you prioritize your comfort over theirs, and in those cases you push them up forcing them to accommodate you. You don't outline anytime where it is not a problem for you, or any time you let the other person recline.
Now maybe you just omitted these cases, but the way you are explaining it you sound like the unreasonable person who always has to have their way.
> The reclining feature doesn't go "into" your lap.
No, it tends to go into my patellar tendon. I can move my knee out of the way with just a little bit of warning, but slamming back your seat into my knees is not exactly a friendly thing to do.
Yes, I buy a seat knowing that when I sit in the seat my knees will be up against the seat in front of me. The seat in front of me has nowhere to recline. My knees have become used to the pressure over the course of hundreds of flights. At my height (2 meters) there is little alternative. Passengers in front of me have asked me to move seats, avoid air travel and invited me to go to hell.
In my opinion, your 'right' to recline ends where my kneecaps begin.
There's no denying the geometry of it, but you are being selfish by thinking you have the right to wedge yourself in a seat that's too small for you. Just because it's the cheapest option doesn't mean it's appropriate for you.
I'm 198 cm and I only fly in first, or in an exit row if needed.
I speak as someone who is also 2m tall but who never puts his knees up against the seat in front of him (and views that as a little childish). My perspective is that the airline has made the seat-space smaller in order to make the flight cheaper, and has gifted everyone with a button which allows their seat-back to not be vertical, for the convenience of those who wish to sleep on a plane, at the expense of the convenience of those who wish that seatback to be up for whatever reason (honestly it's more an issue for me with using a laptop than it is for my legs, which can fold or tuck longways underneath the seat in front of me or stretch into an aisle or many other things).
I don't think there is either a "right" to recline nor a "right" to not be reclined on; rights are not the correct word at all. Blame is not productive here; it's a matter of perspective who is infringing on whose rights, and the truth is that we live in a negotiated world, and this is just one of the negotiations that needs be made.
I do like the idea that us can't-sleep-with-that-engine-drone-anyway folks have a laptop-column in the plane which doesn't recline, for our mutual convenience. Until that's the case I'll ask the person ahead of me politely and/or request to be reseated into an exit row.
And if its' a business trip, or the front row seats are already taken? I've been stuck in the last row of an airplane before on a last minute flight... my knees were wedged into the joint from the seat in front of me, and when they tried to recline it popped my knee cap out of position. fuck you
You paid for the recline space behind you. The person in front paid for the space in front of your face. That's obviously the deal. If you hassle the person in front, you are the problem.
You can choose to pay extra for the bulkhead/exit row if you want or need a different deal.
Actually, if you look at the airline's contract of carriage, you paid a lot of money for, well, basically nothing whatsoever, especially in the US. You really ought to be on your knees offering prayers of thanksgiving for the fact that they let you on the plane at all once they got hold of your money; as to some sort of right to reclining space by virtue of having bought a ticket, well, that's just plain laughable.
> Tall people earn more money than short people, an average of $789 per inch per year, according to a 2004 paper in the Journal of Applied Psychology.
What an absurdly childish argument. Just because on average tall people earn more, it doesn't follow that every tall person on a flight would be able to afford to pay someone not to put them in an uncomfortable situation.
He's talking about effectively exploiting someone's situation.
Or is that the point? That in a capitalist system, it's a-ok to be an arsehole?
Give me a break. Is it absurdly childish to give pregnant women special seats on a bus because in general they are less mobile? It's common to base a social norm on the general characteristics of a class of people.
The real problem, then, is that the airline seems to be selling the right to sit with unsquashed knees and the right to recline your seat into someone else's knees, and since it rarely comes to an argument, they can get away with double-dipping.
I have yet to see a regular airline ticket that guarantees the right to sufficient knee-room. On the contrary, most airlines actively encourage people to pay small premiums for exit row seats or large premiums for business class if they anticipate needing an above-average amount of space to sit in comfort.
I don't understand why airlines don't just disable recline in one half of the economy-class cabin, and then let passengers choose whether they want to sit in the reclining or non-reclining side.
I'm 5'10" (almost exactly average for men) but I still like having extra space for using my laptop or iPad. I also don't really benefit from recline because I never sleep on flights. So I would really like having the option to fly without it.
This could also save airlines money on fuel and maintenance. Non-reclining seats would likely weigh less, cost less, and would be easier to maintain.
This all seems beside the point, the airlines have simply placed the seats far too close together. Perhaps the whining , bad press and diverted flights will encourage them to spread them a little further apart.
"the airlines have simply placed the seats far too close together"
Not siding with the airlines, but the seat spacing likely directly correlates to the ticket costs. Want more space? you will likely have to pay for it.
They don't care. They move as a group. They may collude openly or not, but in the end they hold all the cards. They have little incentive to reduce prices or improve conditions. The only way they will improve is if either a massive is issue arises or more competition enters from other vectors.
They don't care. They move as a group. They may collude openly or not, but in the end they hold all the cards. They have little incentive to reduce prices or improve conditions. The only way they will improve is if either a massive is issue arises or more competition enters from other vectors.
I feel like this whole issue was largely resolved by Jet Blue who gives a couple of more inches of space. Even if someone reclines, I felt like I wasn't being invaded by the person's seat. Of course now they charge for higher legroom seats...so essentially Jet Blue has done exactly what the author states.
As a slightly above average 5'11" guy, I feel though that the average coach airline seat is designed as a torture device. The arms are too low to properly rest my shoulders (forcing me essentially to either severely slouch or fold my arms the entire flight), the seats are too close to fully extend my legs, the seat itself has a slight incline so that your knees get particularly more uncomfortable, and the space to the next person (particularly with shared armrests, and overweight people) requires me to slightly bend away from them. All of this combines to muscle cramps in the back for a couple of days after flying. It's really a miserable experience that I feel could be largely fixed by the airlines, if they weren't in debt, greedy, or dieing. I don't really blame the people in front of me for wanting to recline (I often do a couple of inches, though never the full length). I blame the airlines (and in essence the manufacturers, though I'm convinced they build what the airlines are demanding) for designing horribly uncomfortable seats with no space.
As a 6'5" lankey mess of a spaghetti noodle, I absolutely hate flying (or sitting on buses, despite my undying love for mass transit... but I digress).
I had a guy turn around and yell at me once because he tried to recline, my knees got jammed beneath his chairback, so I quickly snapped them out. He thought I was protesting against his recline by kicking the back of his chair. I tried to explain to him that my legs were just stuck and needed to move them, thus the literal knee-jerk reaction, but he wanted nothing to do with it.
But I guess if presented with the opportunity to be shorter, I wouldn't take it no matter the circumstances; I love being tall.
Ryanair 'solved' this problem by fitting non-recline seats (which also means cabin crew don't have to check seat positions before landing).
There's also no seat-back storage which increases leg room (or rather lets them fit more seats in the same space) which also removes the need for cleaners to check seat pockets reducing turn-around time.
You're flying though the air at 550mph - a feat thought impossible a mere 100 years ago. I can't believe the things people find to complain about. Are our lives so boring that this drivel is actually printworthy?
Reclining your seat in coach is a horrible, selfish thing to do. I'm 6'3" and all leg. On most flights these days, unless I spring for Economy Plus or similar, where you get a few extra inches, my knees are smushed up against the seat in front of me already. If the person in front of me reclines, it actually presses hard on my kneecaps. I've actually been known to press my legs against the seat in front of me so that they can't recline. It's kind of a dick move, but much less so than reclining your seat.
> Reclining your seat in coach is a horrible, selfish thing to do.
I'd be inclined to disagree. I'm not saying that someone's moderate comfort improvement is worth more than your actual pain -- but the selfish, horrible behavior is not on the part of the passenger in front of you.
It's the horrible, selfish airline's fault.
They are the ones jamming as many seats as possible into an aircraft, and overselling every flight. It's a business; I get it. Still, though, it's difficult to blame someone who is also cramped into a seat in coach from trying to get as much comfort as they can out of the situation. The other (unaddressed) problem is the "domino effect" of seat reclining. If someone in front of you reclines their seat, you lose a significant amount of space -- and the only way to compensate for that is to also recline yours.
If you don't think people should be allowed to recline their seat a few inches, take it up with the airlines, not the passengers.
>Instead of counting their blessings, or buying extra-legroom seats with some of their extra income, the tall have the gall to demand that the rules of flying be reconfigured to their advantage, just as everything else in life already has been.
Jesus, talk about bitter. I almost wish the author could experience having your knees crushed during a long flight, I think some perspective would do him good
I'm a frequent flyer and 195 cm tall. In my opinion talking about certain "rights" to a seat is pathetic and a spoiled, juvenile way of thinking. You have two options; Annoy and possibly hurt the other cheapskate person behind you or deal with your own problems.
If YOU feel like you need to extra comfort, get 1st class and don't destroy it for everyone else, who are also just trying to survive the horrible trip on monkey class.
I'm only 5'9", so I don't fully understand the geometry of being tall on an airplane, so forgive me if this is a stupid question: Can't you [tall people] put your legs down under the seat in front of you and avoid having your knees directly in the area where the seat reclines? I do this when I want to stretch out more, but does this not work for tall people?
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[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 107 ms ] threadAs a tall person, especially on regional jets: yes, yes it does.
The idea that you somehow control the right of the person in front of you to recline (a right which they actually paid money to use) is rather selfish and not a valid option.
Inside an aircraft, space is for sale, if you need more, pay for it, or rail against airlines to provide you better service. The person in front of you is simply collecting what he/she paid for.
I know it's en vogue to treat everything as an economic exercise to show off that business course you took for your undergrad, but some things are really a matter of being a decent person. I've asked people to please not recline when it's a problem. Usually people are cool with it on the short flights where it really is a problem. Of course you sometimes get an indignant person who needs their 30 minutes of "relaxation" and that's when I push them up. If they prioritize their comfort over mine, why shouldn't I do the same.
Now maybe you just omitted these cases, but the way you are explaining it you sound like the unreasonable person who always has to have their way.
No, it tends to go into my patellar tendon. I can move my knee out of the way with just a little bit of warning, but slamming back your seat into my knees is not exactly a friendly thing to do.
Regardless, when you bought your ticket you buy it with the knowledge that there is a seat in front of you that reclines.
In my opinion, your 'right' to recline ends where my kneecaps begin.
I'm 198 cm and I only fly in first, or in an exit row if needed.
I don't think there is either a "right" to recline nor a "right" to not be reclined on; rights are not the correct word at all. Blame is not productive here; it's a matter of perspective who is infringing on whose rights, and the truth is that we live in a negotiated world, and this is just one of the negotiations that needs be made.
I do like the idea that us can't-sleep-with-that-engine-drone-anyway folks have a laptop-column in the plane which doesn't recline, for our mutual convenience. Until that's the case I'll ask the person ahead of me politely and/or request to be reseated into an exit row.
You can choose to pay extra for the bulkhead/exit row if you want or need a different deal.
Actually, if you look at the airline's contract of carriage, you paid a lot of money for, well, basically nothing whatsoever, especially in the US. You really ought to be on your knees offering prayers of thanksgiving for the fact that they let you on the plane at all once they got hold of your money; as to some sort of right to reclining space by virtue of having bought a ticket, well, that's just plain laughable.
What an absurdly childish argument. Just because on average tall people earn more, it doesn't follow that every tall person on a flight would be able to afford to pay someone not to put them in an uncomfortable situation.
He's talking about effectively exploiting someone's situation.
Or is that the point? That in a capitalist system, it's a-ok to be an arsehole?
Then when you get off the plane, complain about the decay of moral decency in the world.
I'm 5'10" (almost exactly average for men) but I still like having extra space for using my laptop or iPad. I also don't really benefit from recline because I never sleep on flights. So I would really like having the option to fly without it.
This could also save airlines money on fuel and maintenance. Non-reclining seats would likely weigh less, cost less, and would be easier to maintain.
Not siding with the airlines, but the seat spacing likely directly correlates to the ticket costs. Want more space? you will likely have to pay for it.
As a slightly above average 5'11" guy, I feel though that the average coach airline seat is designed as a torture device. The arms are too low to properly rest my shoulders (forcing me essentially to either severely slouch or fold my arms the entire flight), the seats are too close to fully extend my legs, the seat itself has a slight incline so that your knees get particularly more uncomfortable, and the space to the next person (particularly with shared armrests, and overweight people) requires me to slightly bend away from them. All of this combines to muscle cramps in the back for a couple of days after flying. It's really a miserable experience that I feel could be largely fixed by the airlines, if they weren't in debt, greedy, or dieing. I don't really blame the people in front of me for wanting to recline (I often do a couple of inches, though never the full length). I blame the airlines (and in essence the manufacturers, though I'm convinced they build what the airlines are demanding) for designing horribly uncomfortable seats with no space.
I had a guy turn around and yell at me once because he tried to recline, my knees got jammed beneath his chairback, so I quickly snapped them out. He thought I was protesting against his recline by kicking the back of his chair. I tried to explain to him that my legs were just stuck and needed to move them, thus the literal knee-jerk reaction, but he wanted nothing to do with it.
But I guess if presented with the opportunity to be shorter, I wouldn't take it no matter the circumstances; I love being tall.
There's also no seat-back storage which increases leg room (or rather lets them fit more seats in the same space) which also removes the need for cleaners to check seat pockets reducing turn-around time.
I'd be inclined to disagree. I'm not saying that someone's moderate comfort improvement is worth more than your actual pain -- but the selfish, horrible behavior is not on the part of the passenger in front of you.
It's the horrible, selfish airline's fault.
They are the ones jamming as many seats as possible into an aircraft, and overselling every flight. It's a business; I get it. Still, though, it's difficult to blame someone who is also cramped into a seat in coach from trying to get as much comfort as they can out of the situation. The other (unaddressed) problem is the "domino effect" of seat reclining. If someone in front of you reclines their seat, you lose a significant amount of space -- and the only way to compensate for that is to also recline yours.
If you don't think people should be allowed to recline their seat a few inches, take it up with the airlines, not the passengers.
Jesus, talk about bitter. I almost wish the author could experience having your knees crushed during a long flight, I think some perspective would do him good
Here's an interesting look at the changes, good and bad, in the 30 years following deregulation: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/business/17air.html?pagewa...
If YOU feel like you need to extra comfort, get 1st class and don't destroy it for everyone else, who are also just trying to survive the horrible trip on monkey class.
Of course, if you're on longhaul it's different.