The article begins by introducing Ana Redmond, who "launched into a technology career ... well-equipped to succeed ... In 2011, after 15 years, she left before achieving a management position."
The article ends by telling us "Redmond now runs her own business making educational apps for children."
I'm sorry, but how does founding a company that builds apps count as "leaving the tech industry"?
I'm sure women face many subtle and not-so-subtle issues working in tech, because it is very much a boys' club, but I'm not so sure about the analytical merits of this article.
Problem exists that CAN affect women != women's problem. Problem that ONLY affects women == women's problem. Wish that distinction was made more often. That the 20% figure for women is so consistent (and a lie I might add, I doubt 10% represents DBAs, and I bet that the PR and HR departments have closer to 100% females) is surely SOMETHING.
My girlfriend is a lawyer and she is quitting for much the same reasons - the long hours, the fact that to get promoted you need to get clients which you need to be part of the boy's club to do etc etc.
The thing, is MANY of her male peers feel the same way.
The biggest difference IMHO is that women have more guts than men and actually will leave. Most men ARE their jobs, so they stay DESPITE how terrible it is.
Women, often with more rounded senses of self esteem, go "fuck this shit - I'm Audi".
I'm not sure how that is a good thing for men OR women, and I'm not sure how to fix it. "Make women miserable" seems, to me at least, the worst outcome, but really, that's the only way to address the issue of ratios, without addressing the underlying issues.
Maybe it's just me but the article seemed pretty clear.
Women reach a glass ceiling within the IT industry and decide to leave. Some, like Ana, are lucky enough to startup their own business. But this would be the minority. Most middle aged people have mortgages, families etc that they need to provide for. "Hostile" male culture, a sense of isolation and lack of a clear career path seem like a pretty sad indictment on our industry.
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Fascinating. Note to potential commenters: the same article just had a discussion thread which was flagkilled. Don't invest any energy or thought in your comment, as it's likely at risk of removal again.
The article leads with Ana Redmond and Garann Means but the featured photo is Tracy Chou? The author doesn't even mention Chou until the 19th paragraph!
I don't think anyone is arguing there isn't misogyny in tech. There is misogyny almost everywhere. It's been a part of our culture for a very long time and it will take time and continued efforts to solve the problem, but trying to determine which problems are the most obvious is part of the solution and does nothing to undermine the fact that there is a problem.
This doesn't appear to highlight the problem. I'm open to discussion, but this article does nothing to provoke discussion it only highlights its conclusion and does little to support the conclusion it came to.
This is pretty much the worst possible way to respond to an opinion you seemingly disagree with.
Where is the misogyny you see? I, like many others, see where we work as equal opportunity environments and note that the same opinion is shared by those considered minorities. If you've been exposed to something different, that's fine and can be a relevant addition to a discussion that you're flat out refusing to have because you consider your views as objective.
It was offensive and dismissive, so I responded in kind.
Anyone who is so ignorant as to deny the rampant misogyny in tech -- in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary -- is not someone who is going to be swayed by any appeal to reason and so I'm not going to waste my time in vain.
And your simplistic, black and white, view of women's situation in the tech world is naive and lacks the nuance necessary to achieve any positive change. The comment you so rudely dismissed made an excellent point. Misogyny is a deep-rooted problem in our society, not just the tech world, and has been for quite some time. This is evidenced by the fact that some of the worst discrimination against women comes from other women. Dismissive name calling will only lead to complaining. Only through understanding will we achieve progress.
We need to examine why we're creating work environments that benefit aggressive personalities. In my job as an engineering manager, I've had to coach two male engineers to be more influential across the organization. This journey has been hard for them since they're the quintessential type-B personalities that are most happy simply getting their work done. But it's been made abundantly clear to me that they cannot advance beyond the Staff level without becoming more vocal leaders. I know this journey well since I've had to force myself into the same unnatural tendencies.
It frustrates me to hear stories like the one we're responding to. Women complaining about being shut out of discussions? I had the same thing happen and for quite some time and I had to constantly ask my manager why I wasn't included in certain meetings. Over time, I started getting invited to more. I've realized that getting my due promotions has required me to be somewhat of an asshole. I don't think my workplace, a large enterprise software company, is uncommon and that's a huge problem. Women complaining about being paid less for the same work? I've witnessed about 100 salary negotiations in my time as a manager and every female prospect has either undervalued herself or caved much too easily whereas most male prospects know their value and fight for it.
I think we can all agree that the outcomes, when women are underpaid, overlooked and made to feel unwelcome, need to change. But the processes that lead to those outcomes are incredibly complex and oversimplifying them does an incredible disservice. These issues are incredibly nuanced and when people like you deny that, you prevent the discussions that might lead to the understanding that is our only hope of remedying the situation.
I can't argue that the post your are responding to is terribly substantive, but at the same time, guys who tell me, "No one looks at my chest at conferences!" just don't... inspire a lot of confidence in me.
Perhaps you're saying that you are working to make your workplace an equal opportunity environment, in which case I congratulate you. Perhaps like my workplace, though, there are plenty of inequities, which I simply don't mention too often because I have work to do and I don't want to be seen as the troublemaker. Most of my male colleagues would testify that our workplace is an equal opportunity environment. This is easily demonstrably false if you line up salaries, office space, and academic credentials & publications (I'm at a university so it's relevant). I am indeed grateful to the (male) colleagues who look out for me and try to help me out. At the same time, they are often clueless and have no idea what my interactions with funders and administrators are really like. But complainers and depressing people are just less fun to hang out with, so I don't want to be one of them! Stay positive!
Did you read the article ? It clearly highlighted the problem. According to the Harvard study, they include a "hostile" male culture, a sense of isolation and lack of a clear career path.
Examples include: Redmond, now 40, didn't want to leave her tech career. But she felt stuck, with no way to advance ; Chou, "The continuous pattern of all these people treating me like I didn't know what was going on, or excluding me from conversations and not trusting my assertions, all these things added up and it felt like there was an undercurrent of sexism"
Frankly this dismissive "misogyny is everywhere" attitude is pretty unhelpful. It isn't everywhere and even if it were it implies that it is somehow endemic to our culture which it isn't. Many industries actively support and encourage women especially in senior management positions.
> "The continuous pattern of all these people treating me like I didn't know what was going on, or excluding me from conversations and not trusting my assertions, all these things added up and it felt like there was an undercurrent of sexism"
Well, this happens to men as well. I'm a male engineer and not being asked, not being trusted is just how it works at my current job. YMMV
The reason why we are seeing negative reactions here might be that some people are seriously tired of everything being sexism.[1]
[1]: e.g. "Donglegate" Adria Richards, who cost two people their jobs because she 1.) most likely misunderstood a joke that was not meant for her 2.) misused female privilege (yes, they exist as well)
I'm sure he won't disagree with the fact that some environments are hostile.
The issue arises around the fluff piece with your example: "Redmond, now 40, didn't want to leave her tech career. But she felt stuck..."
Tell me 1 person in america that doesn't or hasn't felt this way in a career or a job.
The real issue is...if those were men, we would not be having this conversation and you would be saying "suck it up".
I am explicitly arguing that not only that there is little to no misogyny it tech but even further, that the tech industry goes above and beyond to no be any of your favorite "- ists"
Fair enough, I apologize for speaking for everyone.
Have you never heard a sexist joke at work? That's misogyny in the tech industry. I'm not suggesting it's endemic to tech. I'm merely recognizing that we're not that far removed from a time where women couldn't vote and we still have laws on books that allow men to beat women as punishment in first world countries.
Tech has nothing to do with the disease. We're merely a more observant industry, so we tend to notice things like this before other industries and thus it somehow becomes a problem vs industry instead of just recognizing it as a problem. Tech isn't the only industry that is male dominated and I certainly wouldn't say that being male dominated necessitates sexism.
> When my female friends make funny sexist jokes, is that misandry?
No, but it is misogyny. Well, At least my understanding of the word. I may be wrong in how the word is perceived, but I know the strict definition includes prejudice and making jokes that highlight prejudice may not indicate how you make decisions in life, but it puts prejudice in a good light and that has subtle but real impact on how people behave.
It would be a cute statement we could get behind had it not been that we spent about 20 years of doing 14-20 hour days because it was expected of us before we got into the management. So now we kind of look at those that did not put in the time the same way we look at those that show up with their ITT Tech diplomas.
The facts of article don't support the headline, since the numbers they reference are for total female percentages, not attrition numbers. Sounds to me that it's not that they're leaving, but they didn't get there in the first place.
What got me was the last quote from Garann Means - "The main thing would be professionalism. Just being able to treat each other with respect would be huge."
Those words echo exactly what my wife says almost daily, and she is a non-tech manager at a non-tech company.
Barbie taught a generation that "math is hard". Journalists shouldn't be expected to investigate numbers beyond how well they sit with the text in their screed.
I'm sorry, but I don't see the issue. I continue to see article after article about women not being in the tech space, but being in corp. tech for over 10 years - outside of larger conservative tech companies such as IBM, the issue isn't that women cannot obtain advancement but more so of the ratio of woman/men in the tech sector.
Should I be upset that when I go for my checkup, that I see primarily Asian doctors? Are they getting greater advancement because they are Asian? Or it is the fact that 1 segment of the population has a larger number entering that space?
"Her male bosses told her she'd built it without permission. Then they said only architects within the company could pitch features — and all the architects were male."
^^ As a white male, I had recently done this in my job and was told the same. Our protocol as that we are required to request permission prior to developing new features. This is not uncommon.
"It's why the industry is so eager to hire women and minorities. For decades tech companies have relied on a workforce of whites and Asians, most of them men."
facepalm
Really? Where are the women who are crying out for equal rights? As a white male, I would assume companies would seek the best that they could find, rather than seek to locate a segment of the population that is less inclined to enter the tech space.
This is just a poorly written article to draw in readers, and a few instances of people that had bad experiences in their own workplace rather than industry facts.
We are have bad experiences in life and work, regardless of our sex, age, race, or religion. While I am not saying that it does not happen, I am saying that this is a "junk" piece created for readership that is pro woman man slapping.
the issue isn't that women cannot obtain advancement but more so of the ratio of woman/men in the tech sector.
I definitely feel this way when I contemplate the possibility of a glass ceiling at my office. There are no high level female execs. But on the other hand, there is only one recent female new hire (contrasted to 10-20 recent male new hires)
Considering the natural funnel to upper management, it seems abundantly clear the lack-of-female-execs problem, wherever it may be, is not in our promotion system. Maybe it's in hiring. Maybe it's in school. But it doesn't seem to be in promotion.
His black pants wearing bosses told him he'd built it without permission. Then they said only architects within the company could pitch features — and all the architects were wearing black pants !
"Clearly this is not a coincidence. It has nothing to do with this company just being dysfunctional and unwelcoming of individual initiatives or anything, no : this has got to be discrimination against people wearing blue pants like myself ! This would definitely never happen to my colleagues who prefer black pants. I'm sure you can find other stories of blue pants-wearing people like myself who at least once didn't get that promotion, and make a nice article about it with a catchy headline. Go to work, journalist !"
Gender discrimination in tech might exist, but it will take more than anecdotal stories like these thrown together to establish causation.
Any white male developer with some big corp experience will have experienced the frustrating situation described above. This is the control group, and it says your "gender" variable in that particular experiment is BS.
Some white males never get "that" promotion either, I'm sure you can find enough of them to make a nice article about it.
They just don't have the opportunity of blaming it on their genitals nor do they have support groups dedicated to them.
The constant use of fallacies and sensationalism by well-meaning (and less well-meaning) feminists is doing a disservice to taking these issues seriously where they do exist, IMHO.
38 comments
[ 556 ms ] story [ 1475 ms ] threadThe article ends by telling us "Redmond now runs her own business making educational apps for children."
I'm sorry, but how does founding a company that builds apps count as "leaving the tech industry"?
I'm sure women face many subtle and not-so-subtle issues working in tech, because it is very much a boys' club, but I'm not so sure about the analytical merits of this article.
My girlfriend is a lawyer and she is quitting for much the same reasons - the long hours, the fact that to get promoted you need to get clients which you need to be part of the boy's club to do etc etc.
The thing, is MANY of her male peers feel the same way.
The biggest difference IMHO is that women have more guts than men and actually will leave. Most men ARE their jobs, so they stay DESPITE how terrible it is.
Women, often with more rounded senses of self esteem, go "fuck this shit - I'm Audi".
I'm not sure how that is a good thing for men OR women, and I'm not sure how to fix it. "Make women miserable" seems, to me at least, the worst outcome, but really, that's the only way to address the issue of ratios, without addressing the underlying issues.
Women reach a glass ceiling within the IT industry and decide to leave. Some, like Ana, are lucky enough to startup their own business. But this would be the minority. Most middle aged people have mortgages, families etc that they need to provide for. "Hostile" male culture, a sense of isolation and lack of a clear career path seem like a pretty sad indictment on our industry.
This doesn't appear to highlight the problem. I'm open to discussion, but this article does nothing to provoke discussion it only highlights its conclusion and does little to support the conclusion it came to.
Where is the misogyny you see? I, like many others, see where we work as equal opportunity environments and note that the same opinion is shared by those considered minorities. If you've been exposed to something different, that's fine and can be a relevant addition to a discussion that you're flat out refusing to have because you consider your views as objective.
Anyone who is so ignorant as to deny the rampant misogyny in tech -- in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary -- is not someone who is going to be swayed by any appeal to reason and so I'm not going to waste my time in vain.
We need to examine why we're creating work environments that benefit aggressive personalities. In my job as an engineering manager, I've had to coach two male engineers to be more influential across the organization. This journey has been hard for them since they're the quintessential type-B personalities that are most happy simply getting their work done. But it's been made abundantly clear to me that they cannot advance beyond the Staff level without becoming more vocal leaders. I know this journey well since I've had to force myself into the same unnatural tendencies.
It frustrates me to hear stories like the one we're responding to. Women complaining about being shut out of discussions? I had the same thing happen and for quite some time and I had to constantly ask my manager why I wasn't included in certain meetings. Over time, I started getting invited to more. I've realized that getting my due promotions has required me to be somewhat of an asshole. I don't think my workplace, a large enterprise software company, is uncommon and that's a huge problem. Women complaining about being paid less for the same work? I've witnessed about 100 salary negotiations in my time as a manager and every female prospect has either undervalued herself or caved much too easily whereas most male prospects know their value and fight for it.
I think we can all agree that the outcomes, when women are underpaid, overlooked and made to feel unwelcome, need to change. But the processes that lead to those outcomes are incredibly complex and oversimplifying them does an incredible disservice. These issues are incredibly nuanced and when people like you deny that, you prevent the discussions that might lead to the understanding that is our only hope of remedying the situation.
Perhaps you're saying that you are working to make your workplace an equal opportunity environment, in which case I congratulate you. Perhaps like my workplace, though, there are plenty of inequities, which I simply don't mention too often because I have work to do and I don't want to be seen as the troublemaker. Most of my male colleagues would testify that our workplace is an equal opportunity environment. This is easily demonstrably false if you line up salaries, office space, and academic credentials & publications (I'm at a university so it's relevant). I am indeed grateful to the (male) colleagues who look out for me and try to help me out. At the same time, they are often clueless and have no idea what my interactions with funders and administrators are really like. But complainers and depressing people are just less fun to hang out with, so I don't want to be one of them! Stay positive!
Examples include: Redmond, now 40, didn't want to leave her tech career. But she felt stuck, with no way to advance ; Chou, "The continuous pattern of all these people treating me like I didn't know what was going on, or excluding me from conversations and not trusting my assertions, all these things added up and it felt like there was an undercurrent of sexism"
Frankly this dismissive "misogyny is everywhere" attitude is pretty unhelpful. It isn't everywhere and even if it were it implies that it is somehow endemic to our culture which it isn't. Many industries actively support and encourage women especially in senior management positions.
Well, this happens to men as well. I'm a male engineer and not being asked, not being trusted is just how it works at my current job. YMMV
The reason why we are seeing negative reactions here might be that some people are seriously tired of everything being sexism.[1]
[1]: e.g. "Donglegate" Adria Richards, who cost two people their jobs because she 1.) most likely misunderstood a joke that was not meant for her 2.) misused female privilege (yes, they exist as well)
The issue arises around the fluff piece with your example: "Redmond, now 40, didn't want to leave her tech career. But she felt stuck..." Tell me 1 person in america that doesn't or hasn't felt this way in a career or a job. The real issue is...if those were men, we would not be having this conversation and you would be saying "suck it up".
I am explicitly arguing that not only that there is little to no misogyny it tech but even further, that the tech industry goes above and beyond to no be any of your favorite "- ists"
Have you never heard a sexist joke at work? That's misogyny in the tech industry. I'm not suggesting it's endemic to tech. I'm merely recognizing that we're not that far removed from a time where women couldn't vote and we still have laws on books that allow men to beat women as punishment in first world countries.
Tech has nothing to do with the disease. We're merely a more observant industry, so we tend to notice things like this before other industries and thus it somehow becomes a problem vs industry instead of just recognizing it as a problem. Tech isn't the only industry that is male dominated and I certainly wouldn't say that being male dominated necessitates sexism.
Hold on.
When my female friends make funny sexist jokes, is that misandry?
Sexist jokes are sexist, but I don't think sexist == misoginist/misandrist.
EDIT: To be clear, I mean when those women make sexist jokes about men. As in, sexism about/directed at men.
No, but it is misogyny. Well, At least my understanding of the word. I may be wrong in how the word is perceived, but I know the strict definition includes prejudice and making jokes that highlight prejudice may not indicate how you make decisions in life, but it puts prejudice in a good light and that has subtle but real impact on how people behave.
What got me was the last quote from Garann Means - "The main thing would be professionalism. Just being able to treat each other with respect would be huge."
Those words echo exactly what my wife says almost daily, and she is a non-tech manager at a non-tech company.
"Her male bosses told her she'd built it without permission. Then they said only architects within the company could pitch features — and all the architects were male."
^^ As a white male, I had recently done this in my job and was told the same. Our protocol as that we are required to request permission prior to developing new features. This is not uncommon.
"It's why the industry is so eager to hire women and minorities. For decades tech companies have relied on a workforce of whites and Asians, most of them men."
facepalm Really? Where are the women who are crying out for equal rights? As a white male, I would assume companies would seek the best that they could find, rather than seek to locate a segment of the population that is less inclined to enter the tech space.
This is just a poorly written article to draw in readers, and a few instances of people that had bad experiences in their own workplace rather than industry facts. We are have bad experiences in life and work, regardless of our sex, age, race, or religion. While I am not saying that it does not happen, I am saying that this is a "junk" piece created for readership that is pro woman man slapping.
I definitely feel this way when I contemplate the possibility of a glass ceiling at my office. There are no high level female execs. But on the other hand, there is only one recent female new hire (contrasted to 10-20 recent male new hires)
Considering the natural funnel to upper management, it seems abundantly clear the lack-of-female-execs problem, wherever it may be, is not in our promotion system. Maybe it's in hiring. Maybe it's in school. But it doesn't seem to be in promotion.
"Clearly this is not a coincidence. It has nothing to do with this company just being dysfunctional and unwelcoming of individual initiatives or anything, no : this has got to be discrimination against people wearing blue pants like myself ! This would definitely never happen to my colleagues who prefer black pants. I'm sure you can find other stories of blue pants-wearing people like myself who at least once didn't get that promotion, and make a nice article about it with a catchy headline. Go to work, journalist !"
Gender discrimination in tech might exist, but it will take more than anecdotal stories like these thrown together to establish causation.
Any white male developer with some big corp experience will have experienced the frustrating situation described above. This is the control group, and it says your "gender" variable in that particular experiment is BS.
Some white males never get "that" promotion either, I'm sure you can find enough of them to make a nice article about it. They just don't have the opportunity of blaming it on their genitals nor do they have support groups dedicated to them.
The constant use of fallacies and sensationalism by well-meaning (and less well-meaning) feminists is doing a disservice to taking these issues seriously where they do exist, IMHO.