Honestly, if I was stuck in some building after an earthquake, I think the only way my day could get worse was if I was then crawled upon by cyborg roaches.
Why stop at roaches? We could do this to dogs or small children! There's sometimes a tightrope between science and ethics, and this is just plain unethical.
I'll start with the argument just about everyone can relate to. We all know this isn't going to actually help people in collapsed buildings or find lost wedding rings. It's going to be used by government spy agencies and military goons to control people in one way or another.
Secondly, "it's just a cockroach" doesn't work for me. At what point do we say it's ok to essentially torture a living being into doing what we want? You could argue a cockroach doesn't have feelings or consciousness, but I could also argue that I am the only living being with feelings or consciousness. "I have no way of telling if another person or creature has feelings, therefor they must not."
Third, for those who don't give a shit about anybody but humans, how long until this is used in humans? They are sending signals directly into a living being's brain that controls its motor functions. Could that tech not be applied to a person eventually? Why put people in prisons when we can just force them into building signs all day? Why give soldiers a battle plan when you can just safely control them with a joystick from 3000 miles away?
This isn't just about making a cockroach do simple things. We're trading our humanity for science that will only do us harm.
Take off that tin-foil hat! You seriously think the next logical step for this kind of tech is human slavery?
Wouldn't robotics be a better option for creating autonomous drones than taking over human brains? Also, wouldn't that create a lot less outrage? Seems like a simple choice:
* Spend 250,000 man-hours designing autonomous machines that can do repetitive tasks for us, bringing with it the pride of technological achievement.
* Spend 1,000,000+ man-hours hacking the human brain so that we can hijack people for slavery, bringing with it the shame of moral/ethical condemnation.
You really think that people in power are going to chose the more expensive, less ethical option?
This is much more of an exercise in understanding primitive brain structures. The fact that we have actually accomplished one of the fantasy-technologies from "The Fifth Element" is pretty incredible, actually. We have learned a lot about how biological neural networks work, and this is what we have to show for it.
And yes, it is "just a cockroach". Wait till you find out what we have been doing to monkeys for the past 50+ years!
I hate this stupid kind of slippery slope argument. If you fear everything being used by the NSA (or whatever the current boogie-man is here on HN), you'll never make any progress.
This type of technology could also be used by handicapped people to regain control of limbs in the distant future.
It's not going to be some insane mind control device. It would be hundreds of years before we could even consider doing something like that, if it even ends up being possible.
What agenda are you trying to push by constructing this elaborate strawman? Will you also try to convince me that we should execute Galileo for his heretic proposal that the Earth revolves around the Sun?
Seriously. Harmlessly manipulating cockroaches in a science experiment equates to "trading our humanity"? Give me a break. You are complicit in 100x as much "unethical" treatment of animals on a daily basis. The vast majority of products you buy, eat, use, and rely on have probably been tested on animals much more complex than cockroaches. If this study bothers you as much as you say it does, I challenge you to go without any and all consumer products made with at least as much unethical research. Of course, you'll have to do some research yourself to even find out which products and services you need to abandon. Good luck.
The military argument isn't half bad, so I'm sorry to see it go to waste in the alarmist wasteland of your rhetoric, but if this study's been published, then you almost know for certain the men upstairs have had tech like this for decades. Any panic you stir now would be wasted.
> Why give soldiers a battle plan when you can just safely control them with a joystick from 3000 miles away?
Since we're speculating about the fairly far-off future, I don't see that ever being a more practical option than just building a robot. Humans are squishy, and a lot of people are spending a lot of money working on robotics, automation, and denser energy storage. We're already doing it with planes.
And supposing we're abandoning the ethical concerns completely, which side wins? The one with the mind-controlled humans, or the one with the mind-controlled cockroaches carrying aerosolized nerve agents?
Humans are, all things considered, not the most efficient way to fight wars. But we've collectively agreed (Geneva Convention, etc) that more efficient ways of fighting wars can be a very bad thing, and we banned methods like gas warfare after WWI. I think it's likely that mind-controlled humans (especially ones who didn't volunteer for it) would fall in the same boat.
well, they can slowly introduce people to the acceptance of the idea of physical abuse and torture of another live being. With meat plants being hidden from public view and with nicely packaged meat in the stores not causing any association with horrors of how that meat was produced, the human species may start to lose the taste for abuse and torture.
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[ 4.0 ms ] story [ 68.9 ms ] threadRight.
An organic competitor to the Roomba?
I'll start with the argument just about everyone can relate to. We all know this isn't going to actually help people in collapsed buildings or find lost wedding rings. It's going to be used by government spy agencies and military goons to control people in one way or another.
Secondly, "it's just a cockroach" doesn't work for me. At what point do we say it's ok to essentially torture a living being into doing what we want? You could argue a cockroach doesn't have feelings or consciousness, but I could also argue that I am the only living being with feelings or consciousness. "I have no way of telling if another person or creature has feelings, therefor they must not."
Third, for those who don't give a shit about anybody but humans, how long until this is used in humans? They are sending signals directly into a living being's brain that controls its motor functions. Could that tech not be applied to a person eventually? Why put people in prisons when we can just force them into building signs all day? Why give soldiers a battle plan when you can just safely control them with a joystick from 3000 miles away?
This isn't just about making a cockroach do simple things. We're trading our humanity for science that will only do us harm.
I hear people are eating chickens and even cattle! How long until this is done to humans?!?!
Why control people as automatons when we already have cockroaches? Because of the reasons I listed above.
Why eat cattle, horses, fish and fruit when we have chicken already? Your original argument is nothing but a slippery slope fallacy.
Wouldn't robotics be a better option for creating autonomous drones than taking over human brains? Also, wouldn't that create a lot less outrage? Seems like a simple choice:
* Spend 250,000 man-hours designing autonomous machines that can do repetitive tasks for us, bringing with it the pride of technological achievement.
* Spend 1,000,000+ man-hours hacking the human brain so that we can hijack people for slavery, bringing with it the shame of moral/ethical condemnation.
You really think that people in power are going to chose the more expensive, less ethical option?
This is much more of an exercise in understanding primitive brain structures. The fact that we have actually accomplished one of the fantasy-technologies from "The Fifth Element" is pretty incredible, actually. We have learned a lot about how biological neural networks work, and this is what we have to show for it.
And yes, it is "just a cockroach". Wait till you find out what we have been doing to monkeys for the past 50+ years!
This type of technology could also be used by handicapped people to regain control of limbs in the distant future.
It's not going to be some insane mind control device. It would be hundreds of years before we could even consider doing something like that, if it even ends up being possible.
Seriously. Harmlessly manipulating cockroaches in a science experiment equates to "trading our humanity"? Give me a break. You are complicit in 100x as much "unethical" treatment of animals on a daily basis. The vast majority of products you buy, eat, use, and rely on have probably been tested on animals much more complex than cockroaches. If this study bothers you as much as you say it does, I challenge you to go without any and all consumer products made with at least as much unethical research. Of course, you'll have to do some research yourself to even find out which products and services you need to abandon. Good luck.
The military argument isn't half bad, so I'm sorry to see it go to waste in the alarmist wasteland of your rhetoric, but if this study's been published, then you almost know for certain the men upstairs have had tech like this for decades. Any panic you stir now would be wasted.
'Asked if it hurts the roach, he says, "I don't think so. I haven't heard any complaints from them." '
I'm sure he's part joking, but some part of me is pretty concerned by the lack of empathy in that statement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_brain_stimulation
It's even being used to treat behavioral disorders.
Since we're speculating about the fairly far-off future, I don't see that ever being a more practical option than just building a robot. Humans are squishy, and a lot of people are spending a lot of money working on robotics, automation, and denser energy storage. We're already doing it with planes.
And supposing we're abandoning the ethical concerns completely, which side wins? The one with the mind-controlled humans, or the one with the mind-controlled cockroaches carrying aerosolized nerve agents?
Humans are, all things considered, not the most efficient way to fight wars. But we've collectively agreed (Geneva Convention, etc) that more efficient ways of fighting wars can be a very bad thing, and we banned methods like gas warfare after WWI. I think it's likely that mind-controlled humans (especially ones who didn't volunteer for it) would fall in the same boat.
well, they can slowly introduce people to the acceptance of the idea of physical abuse and torture of another live being. With meat plants being hidden from public view and with nicely packaged meat in the stores not causing any association with horrors of how that meat was produced, the human species may start to lose the taste for abuse and torture.
Never felt pity on cockroaches until today, it was really heavy, overweight.