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Ask HN: I got rejected from Facebook, Dropbox, Microsoft, Quora, What's Wrong?

39 points by mohamedbassem ↗ HN
Hi, I'm a student who was applying for a summer internship and got rejected from all the companies to which I applied from the CV phase. Didn't even get to the interview phase. I got rejected from Facebook ( twice ) even with a referral, got rejected from Dropbox, got rejected from Quora, didn't even get a reply from Microsoft. I thought that my resume is good enough for someone in my age but apparently I was wrong. Is there anything that bad in my resume (http://mbassem.com/assets/files/MohamedBassemResume.pdf)? Thank you.

111 comments

[ 0.34 ms ] story [ 191 ms ] thread
ColinWright
It's often not the CV, it's often the covering letter. The CV provides evidence for your claims, but the covering letter is how and where you ask for the position. Without that it's hard to comment.

For those who are interested, I've added a direct link to the CV to make it easier to read:

Link: http://mbassem.com/assets/files/MohamedBassemResume.pdf

Edit: Interesting. I'm trying to help out here and make it easier for people to have a look at the link provided. It reduces friction, and costs nothing for the people who don't care. Yet someone clearly thinks this is the wrong thing to do and has down-voted me. I'd welcome the opportunity to learn: why should adding the link be regarded as the wrong thing to do? Thanks.

huhtenberg
You are likely downvoted not for the link, but for the actual comment.

The OP appears to be trying to get an internship position in the US while being in Egypt. It is absolutely positively has nothing to do with the cover letter, so your comment is just off by a very wide margin, but it sits at the top because of your massive karma.

ColinWright
That would be a reasonable guess, but it seems not to be the case. It got downvoted when it was just the link and nothing else. I added the extra comments to try to flesh it out, and since then have received around 15 up-votes.

Edit: and more down-votes as well. Fascinating to see the drive-by down-votes.

ColinWright 

    > The OP appears to be trying to get an internship
    > position in the US while being in Egypt.  It is
    > absolutely positively has nothing to do with the
    > cover letter, so your comment is just off by a
    > very wide margin, ...
Are you sure about that? It's been a long time since I had much to do with internships as opposed to job applications, but it always seemed to me that the cover letter was the hook that made me want to check the CV to see if there was evidence supporting the claims made. I don't see why that should have changed at all, but I'd be very interested in learning why you claim that the cover letter is completely irrelevant.

    > ... it sits at the top because of your massive karma.
Actually it now has 18 points. I'd be interested to know for sure what effect a contributor's karma has on their comment ranking. I know it used to, but I was sure I'd seen a comment from the mods saying that the effect had been removed. With no points shown it's now rather harder to be sure, or to do experiments.
huhtenberg
> Are you sure about that?

Positive. No US company will bother with visa headaches for an intern regardless of how exciting the cover letter is. Further compounded by the fact that he's from Egypt, which is a 3rd world country with a highly unstable situation. I suspect you were never exposed to all the pleasures of the US visa process, which would explain your rather naive view of the situation.

ikonst
Internships in European countries are entirely plausible. US visa situation is an exception to the rule among developed countries.

For example, Facebook has London offices, which is their go-to solution for US visa troubles.

Egypt might be "3rd world" in somebody's book, but I've never heard about the visa process being particularly racially biased (at least US visa process).

amnesiac1
>I've never heard about the visa process being particularly racially biased (at least US visa process)

I just dont even know where to begin. The only way I can understand this statement is if you never heard anything about the process, period.

rgovind
Its not about racial bias. Its about background checks, and making sure that the internship is genuine and in one of your uncle's US companies. Plus you should appear confident and genuine, in the in-person interview.
reubenbond
Microsoft bothered with the visa headaches for me when I interned from Australia. It makes sense, too: internships lead to full-time positions.
s54b32dd
Are you serious? Why would a U.S. company want to hire an intern that they have to get a visa for? Unless this guy is applying for internships with Facebook in Egypt, there's absolutely no incentive for a U.S. based company to seek to employ foreign nationals for a position that is largely non-skilled.
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stefantalpalaru
> Yet someone clearly thinks this is the wrong thing to do and has down-voted me. I'd welcome the opportunity to learn: why should adding the link be regarded as the wrong thing to do?

It has nothing to do with the content of your comment. Baseless downvoting is part of the HN culture and it's usually corrected by upvotes in an hour or so.

Eyas
AFAIK, a number of these companies don't even ask for a cover letter as part of the internship application process.
ColinWright
Interesting, I did not know that. I should look into it, because I'd be very surprised if the application process just asked for a bare CV.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll go and do some quiet digging.

bpires
I highly doubt this has to do with cover letters. From Google's Job FAQ: "Cover letters are optional, and applications with them are not preferred over those without. We recommend using a cover letter only to bring up anything that would not be evident from the rest of your application. It can also be an opportunity to let Google know about you as an individual, in addition to why you're a good fit for the organization. We strongly recommend using your resume to represent your candidacy." http://www.google.com/intl/cn/jobs/students/sga/mba/internsh...

From a Google Screener: "As a heavy interviewer and occasional resume screener at Google, I rarely look at the cover letter. Your resume should give me enough context for whether you have the key experience for the role." http://www.quora.com/How-should-a-cover-letter-for-Google-lo...

ColinWright
Right. Based on one of the other comments I've gone to have a look at that. Things have changed, and may be significantly different at places like Google as opposed to my experience. I've only ever been hiring at startups and small companies, and never in the US.

I guess it's also different for an internship as opposed to a job. As someone with 20 years of experience in running companies, when faced with a bare CV I can never tell what someone will be like in a company. I always like to see someone tell me why they add value, and then back up their claims with evidence from their CV, but I guess that doesn't apply here.

All that being said, if all they look at is the CV then a bare recitation might not be the best presentation. It would be interesting to look at how to make a better "CV" for this purpose.

Anyway, thanks for the information - appreciate it.

pxue
I don't remember the last time I wrote a cover letter..
FireBeyond
I'm the opposite, the last two jobs I've gotten I've written a cover letter, and not included a CV (does that make it just a 'letter'?).
brg
For the companies in this list that I have direct experience with, the cover letter is never read and not even available during hiring decisions.
vissi
Wow, you are ACM ICPC finalist, that's a wonderful achievement. It's strange you didn't get into interview.

> GPA : 0.86 out of 0.7 (A+) What does that mean?

mohamedbassem
Thank you :) In my university our GPA scale is inverted. The best you can achieve is 0.7 which corresponds to an A+ and the worst is 5.0 which is an F.
learnstats2
This was the first thing I noticed.

I automatically associate the term 'GPA' with the American-style 4-point scale. I'm not aware that GPA is often used in other contexts. If this is understood on these terms, it will be an instant rejection.

There's also further confusion with 70% vs 86%.

Perhaps it would help to use the appropriate German term?

mhenr18
It's curious that the USA has effectively standardized on a 4 point GPA scale, yet Australia is still a complete catastrophe of marks. The universities in my city use a 7 point scale with 4 being a pass and 7 being 100%, meanwhile the one 100km south will use an American scale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_grading_in_Australia

I actually don't know whether it would be more appropriate when conveying my marks to those in other countries to convert, or to just explain the scale.

RyJones
You might provide appropriate local conversions - to a 4.0 scale for US companies, for instance
johnloeber
The HR (Human Resources) people at American companies are used to the American system of measuring Grades -- usually on the 4.0 scale (0.0 = F, 3.0 = B, 4.0 = A). Just convert your GPA to the 4.0 scale and write that on your resume. Or just write down "A+" average.

You want to make it as clear as possible that you are a strong applicant. Don't make the HR people think too hard about converting your GPA. They'll just get confused.

oblio
Wouldn't it be safer if he used some sort of percentile system? Something like 5%-10% for the GPA-equivalent exam in Egypt? (with the actual score afterwards in case they want to check).
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RansomTime
To hazard a guess, 70% is the maximum grade (which I've been told isn't that good in US standards, so just saying "I've got 86%" - which is a very good grade, might get looked at the wrong way by a US company.
rickyc091
If I'm converting this properly that means in the States, he's actually a B/B+ student. 3.255813953 GPA. B+ being 3.3.
informatimago
The fact that you're asking and writing this in English leads me to believe you sent your resume to the companies in the USA.

Those companies may have some problem in relocating you and dealing with the visa red-tape.

On the other hand, if you sent your resume to Egyptian branches of those companies, I see no reason why they should specifically reject it.

I see that you were intern in a German company. In Europe, foreign students are allowed to intern in European companies, but once graduated, they have to go back to their country and request a work visa to come back working in the European Union. Similarly to the USA, if you sent your resume to German branches of those companies, they may have some difficulty hiring your for lack of a visa and work permit.

jeletonskelly
This is most likely the answer. There's a non-trivial cost for bringing foreign workers into the US and they are probably much less likely to consider it given that this is an internship opportunity and not something full-time.
mohamedbassem
Well, In Egypt there are no branches for those companies. The only one I know of is a small research lab for Microsoft.
madamepsychosis
Remember lots of these things come down to luck. Resume looks more impressive than me, and I did get one of those internships. Just keep trying and don't take it personally.
kamakazizuru
my best guess, is that it has (very unfortunately) to do with Visas :/
kamakazizuru
try looking for internships in Europe, they're a lot better at getting foreigners in as Interns. Germany especially, and since you have experience there before it may not be a bad idea. There are several good startups in Berlin looking for people with your skillset. Leave a comment if you're interested and I'll drop you a mail with some leads in Berlin.
mohamedbassem
Yeah for sure I'm interested. That would be great, Thank you!
edcastro
That's most likely the answer. I've been an expat from down the equator for more than 15 years and most US companies will not bother offering sponsorships for someone without some seniority already. Europe is more accepting regarding this.

Your resume could use some polishing, but I don't think that this is the problem at all.

tomelliott
Facebook has a large Engineering office in London these days and we take interns.

If you're interested email me.

PeekPoke
You are on the wrong side of the Atlantic Ocean.
hoodoof
You don't need a big company to validate you. Just go an become an expert and do something awesome. Stop waiting for someone to give you permission.
kenbellows
Based on the student status, I imagine it's less about wanting validation and more about the combo of needing money and wanting to be a part of the cool stuff that these companies do. Of course big companies aren't the only ones doing cool stuff, but they're the most obvious, often the most accessible, and almost always the ones willing to shell out the biggest stipends. (Plus, principles aside, there's no denying the effect that having a big company on your resume can have when applying for your dream job wherever.)
drglitch
if you were applying to the US branches, then visa red tape was likely culprit - it's awfully time consuming and expensive to get an intern (who doesn't already have a J1-like visa into the country for just 2-3 months internship.

Apply for local subsidiaries as first order of business.

Unrelated: what's with highlighting keywords in resumes lately? Who cares what language a system is in? If rather read why it was important and what business problem it solved.

icco
Also, what's up with inconsistent capitalization and inconsistent highlighting. That drives me crazy.
haack
As ridiculous as it may be, I think the presentation of your CV matters, especially with trendy big techs. Maybe try dressing it up a bit. Have a look at mine if you want: https://www.dropbox.com/s/agffmbzdqvckqta/CV_v2.6.pdf?dl=0. I've had some good feedback (including interviews/offers from the companies you mentioned).

Also I'm curious to know where you applied. I've found that the barrier is higher when applying abroad, especially the US.

RutZap
You may have also had interviews/offers due to the prestige of your University... Warwick is very highly thought of
georgerobinson
I've been tempted to do something like this with my CV. However, I'm concerned that the use of icons and colours might be seen as immature, unless of course you're looking for a position as a designer: in which case it makes perfect sense. Have you had any feedback on your CV format which you might be able to share?
haack
Fair point, there definitely is a danger of over doing it. I'd keep it simple. Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication after all.

A designer at a startup that I interviewed with, said it stood out from the hundreds of other CV's they'd received which meant they at least looked at it.

I've been told that my CV is OK for startups and the above companies. Less so for fintech, big corporates and academia.

robzyb
That resume is beautiful.

Was there any particular inspiration?

haack
Ha thanks, I based it on a friend's CV with a style that I liked, so credit goes to him for the layout. And dozens of iterations later I ended up with this.

Please feel free to steal it (maybe at least change the name though).

rxt
I always find it odd to include details like full address/age. Isn't it unnecessary? If they need your address, they're probably hiring you anyway. If they don't need it, it just adds to the amount of personal data someone who isn't hiring you will possess.
27182818284
>I always find it odd to include details like full address/age. Isn't it unnecessary?

Granted this was maybe 10 years ago, but I was warned explicitly not to add age or family items (like married 3 kids) by a consultant from Gallup that was giving a group presentation / lecture.

s54b32dd
In the US, employers aren't allowed to ask for that information for legal reasons; as such, it's typically considered inappropriate for a candidate to furnish that information.
haack
I have no idea why I have my address. Thanks for pointing that out, will definitely remove that in future. I guess it's at least useful for companies to know which country I am currently residing in.

I've heard mixed things about personal details including age, gender and nationality. Some argue that it's a problem for companies with regards to abiding with discrimination acts (especially US). I include nationality as most of my applications are abroad and my nationality gives some indication of visa requirements.

mohamedbassem
Thanks for the advice will do that for sure! Concerning your questions I applied mostly to US based companies( Facebook, Google, Quora, Dropbox, Box, Pinterest, ..).
epsylon
I like it! What did you use to layout your CV?
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rickyc091
My thoughts exactly. Looking at your resume, it's an impressive resume, however, I'm not seeing anything I haven't seen in other student's resumes. To shine, I think you'll have to have more projects under your belt. All I see are school projects listed.
haack
I disagree (respectfully), he has a link to his Github profile which shows the projects he's been working on.

I'd be very wary of adding "bullshit" to your CV. Your awards, projects and internships show your motivation for wanting to make stuff.

I'm definitely an advocate for adding sparkling unicorns to it though.

justincormack
I couldnt find anything interesting on the github profile on a quick scan, mostly what look like university assignments.
nnq
ok, I totally missed his github profile page link. interesting projects, a link to a personal page with more links, so this is probably not his problem. I'll delete my comment to make sure I don'd give him misinformed advice.
chrisabrams
Your resume is fine for being a student. It is clear you are excelling in your academics and are also taking on some real-world experience.

A couple of questions:

- Where are you based?

- Where are you applying for these internships?

- Are you aware that some of the internships you are applying for are being applied for by 1000s of candidates around the world?

- Are you aware that if you are applying for an internship outside the country you reside you are at a disadvantage because it places an extra burden on the company?

I wouldn't stir too much on why you got down-voted, as there is no scientific correlation between your action and receiving a down vote (or an up vote).

ColinWright 

  > I wouldn't stir too much on why you got down-voted,
  > as there is no scientific correlation between your
  > action and receiving a down vote (or an up vote).
I take it you haven't noticed that the comment with the link and question about down-vote was not submitted by the person making the original submission.
mohamedbassem
Thank you. Concerning your questions :

- I'm based in Egypt.

- I'm applying either with a referral or directly from their career page.

- Yes and Yes.

josteink
Just like everyone can't be a multi-billion paid CEO for a international mega-corp, not everyone can be a engineering whiz at a big & famous international mega-corp.

Some things are just down to luck.

Instead of focusing only on the "big ones", just go get your first good job elsewhere. The important part isn't which company it is, but that the job makes you happy and satisfied.

Once there take the opportunities you can and work your way up gradually. You may not end up where you thought you would or where you planned, but if you stayed focused on job-satisfaction all the way through, you'll end up somewhere you'll be happy to stay.

And that's much more important than working for a famous mega-corporation.

Edit: My attitude and opinions towards job-satisfaction are obviously not overly appreciated here on HN. Watch me care :)

antocv
Yeah, that bugs me too, why has he only applied to "big ones" companies, like they are some desirable place to work? Hah.

Apply for small to medium sized companies, and avoid "big" names.

antocv
Your name, Mohamed, -1 point.

Also, you re not living in the US, EU or Japan, hence -1 point, and your CV is now not read. Next.

Sorry, but thats the way it is.

Just make an experiment, if you dont believe me, send the same CV, from Norway, by the name Peder Niklasson or something. But too bad you cant do this experiment now since its on frontpage. But try it next time.

EDIT: Since you cant really solve the "born in the wrong place" quite easily, Id suggest to look for jobs NOT at the big companies - and instead try to find startup or medium sized normal companies - they might go through the trouble of getting you a visa and work permit.

mewwts
That's a very Swedish name for a Norwegian person ;) Jokes aside I have through referrals been interviewed for positions at Google in Europe. Didn't make the cut, but at least they looked at my CV.
gizzlon
yeah, try "Petter Nilsen" :)
guiomie
"Your name, Mohamed, -1 point." ... This sadly probably has something to do with some rejections. As open as the US is on immmigration, racism is still there in the professional world.
gii2
It is pretty much similar in the french-speaking EU countries - France, Belgium, Switzerland... You should either be local or a resident of the french-speaking African ex-colonies.
arihant
Here is my feedback:

1. The main section of your CV is filled with things that are either not that impressive compared to other things you have done or are hard to judge on. "4x speedup on Docker," how many machines? What infrastructure? I don't know anything from that sentence. In a generic case, 4x speedup is not that great. You've highlighted things like "php" and "MySQL" in bold. That makes them sound those are your biggest accomplishments, and they are easy enough for a 5th grader to learn.

2. The things that are actually amazing about you are buried so deep I suspect most reviewers aren't getting to that point. "ACM ICPC World Finalist" should much more up there. Hackathons should be higher. You have insane amount of repos on Github, a list of those should most definitely be higher.

3. Understand that you're applying for internship. What cool stuff you can do should be highlighted more than where you worked before, unless you worked at an equally competitive company.

4. Do not highlight unimpressive things like MySQL, makes you sound like you peaked.

jbrooksuk
Sorry but using PHP and MySQL makes you no less of an accomplished developer.
skj
Given that we're talking about impressions, it seems pretty relevant.
sbussard
1. Location - I've never heard of El Rehab City, but just the word "rehab" has negative connotations about one's past in the English language. If you were in the US your chances would go up, but it's really a tough process for companies to hire non-citizens.

2. GPA - It looks like there's a discrepancy on your GPA: 0.86 > 0.7.

3. Specialize - Tailor your resume for a specific job title. You may know every programming language, but that might be just extra fluff to read if the position is for a front-end developer. Keep the other info off to the side if you have to but keep it brief.

4. Layout - a recruiter from Apple once told me to put your skills right after your contact info. Education, experience, etc after that. Your resume could also use some improvements in formatting.

jklein11
Do you honestly think the name of this person's city is the reason why recruiters aren't biting?
sbussard
Is it worthwhile to point out that humans have biases? When someone is looking at two similar candidates? Is it fair? Why didn't the Chevy Nova sell well in South America? No logical reason. Besides confusing things that have nothing to do with each other because of the name. But living thousands of miles away from where you want to work says to a recruiter "too hard, pick another candidate from the pool of 400,000 applicants"
jklein11
I 100% agree that the recruiter would have an adverse reaction to a city name that they have a difficult time pronouncing. I disagree that a recruiter is going to look at a city named "Rehab" and think "hmm... might be a drug addict" even subliminally.
droopyEyelids
The people in charge of the world have divided it into imaginary lines to control the rest of us better. It sounds like you're in a different division than the companies you're trying to work for.
mgkimsal
Possibly hugely cynical view here, but...

There's probably 500,000 other companies out there you could apply to that a) you'd have a better chance at getting in and b) probably need your particular skills and abilities far more than Facebook does.

Yes... working at one of those name-brand exclusive companies will no doubt be fun, exciting, helpful, etc, but... there's just something about young people just wanting to work at "top X SV companies" that bugs me, and I don't quite know what it is. Lack of perspective? Sour grapes?

Maybe as I've gotten older I've just realized that no matter how impressive a CV is, there's (almost without exception) multiple other people with CVs more impressive and accomplished than your own. Oh, and generally, CVs are generally less important than the networks you have access to.

Continue to grow your name in the communities you serve right now and opportunities will find you.

meric
If you don't mind interning in Cape Town at a startup you've never heard of based in Sydney, Australia, building our next web-based platform and web products, pop me an email at eric@gradconnection and I'll see what I can do. If fate (and you) may have it, it's a possibility you might get to intern in Sydney, rather than in Cape Town.

Our current job ads would give you an idea of what our current stack for our next platforms and products looks like, much better than the soon-to-be-obsolete website we have online at the moment would:

https://careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs/84553/front-end-devel...

https://careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs/85966/senior-python-d...

xyzzyz
I wouldn't put the blame on visa issues. Facebook, Dropbox and Microsoft (dunno about Quora) are very happy to apply for J-1 visas for interns -- every year, 50-100 students from my university (University of Warsaw) get J-1 visas and go to the US for internships. Most go to NVIDIA, Google, Facebook and Microsoft, but I also know handful of people who were at Dropbox and Palantir, and it seems that one person goes to Quora this year. Maybe with applicants from Egypt it's harder, but I wouldn't bet on that.

Your resume looks better than CVs of some of my friends who actually got jobs at the companies you mention, at least from what I can see.

It's not the cover letter either -- cover letters are not necessary for Google, Facebook, Dropbox, or NVIDIA, as far as I can tell.

My personal guess is that you just had bad luck. Try again and don't give up.

Eyas
I'm also an Arab, from Jordan (granted, my name is not Mohamed). A lot of the answers here are on track but let me give my view and what I've seen from my friends and colleagues' experience.

While companies like Microsoft, Facebook, and Google are usually fine with sponsoring students for J1 or H1B visas, it makes a huge different whether the student is applying from within the US or not. Students from all nationalities who study in a US university will have a much easier time getting a summer internship at these companies.

Part of it is that the paperwork is easier: an international student with an F1 visa studying at a known American university can simply apply for a CPT (Curricular Practical Training) authorization and be allowed to work. Even before that, it is much easier to meet the candidate in person and decide if they are worthy of an offer: you can simply conduct campus interviews or fly them over in a (cheaper) domestic flight.

Simply put, the cost of interviewing an international student outside the US is high enough, that often times it isn't worth the cost to find out if a candidate is worth it.

Looking at other students from the Middle East graduating from my school, I see a similar trend: Those applying for internships and full-time jobs while still in the US as students will get interviews and offers, while those who were in the US and went back home have much more trouble returning.

notahacker
As others have said, you're most likely being rejected because hiring interns from Egypt is a hassle rather than any perceived deficiency in your ability, but I'd still recommend you put achievements and awards near the top... it marks you out as a top student far more than a GPA the recruiter doesn't understand from an institution they haven't heard of.
kriro
I think the comments about applying abroad are probably right. Certainly try to apply to German companies, they are usually eager to get skilled people and the fact that you worked there already helps (instacredit as "don't have to worry about background checks and the like" for the pencil pushers)

Some random other thought:

1) There's no available source code to check that I can see. A link to github would help, maybe write some code specifically for that if you haven't done so.*

2) I'd stress the competitive coding a bit more. That probably means you have some algorithms/data structures chops, those are usually worth a lot on a CV. I'd have a seperate entry in skills for that.

3) Maybe rearange the skills by buzzyness (I'm assuming it's roughly by skill level now)

;) Maybe it just landed on Emacs users' desks

*Edit: Oh wow you have a pretty nice github repo. Def feature it more prominently.

arfliw
While I agree with others that your name and where you live are not doing you any favors, you have also attempted to start at the very top with the most prestigious internships. Many people would be rejected doing that, even if they were American and went to top US schools. Try a tier lower, and a tier lower than that. And then work your way up to the Facebook's and Dropbox's of the World, once you have some American companies on your resume.
mohamedbassem
I guess as people mentioned in the comments here. Lower tier companies in US will be more likely not able to sponsor a visa for a foreigner student.
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abdelkarim
i got interview with google and Facebook and rejection after technical interview in google and HR interview in Facebook, my resume is accepted in Microsoft and currently i'm in the process, i think your resume is very cool but you sorted it's content in a wrong order i thought, form my point of view i think the people whose scan your resume want to see ONLY 2 things.

1- are you smart? 2- could you write codes?

then you have to answer this question in your resume very quickly.

i think you have to push the competitive programming part up in your resume to answer the first question early, and so on..

please see this video for more tips. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wa9J7iXOh0]