Ask HN: How's your drinking problem?
This is inspired by the recent "How's your eyesight?" post where a commenter posted sarcastically that a better question would have been "How's your drinking problem?".
Now while the title may have been a little hyperbolic, I do think it's important for us to discuss the drinking culture we're always around.
How does drinking fit into your life? How has your body or your mind responded to increases or decreases in the frequency of drinking? Have you tried being aware of any of these things and if so what did you learn?
97 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 173 ms ] threadHowever, she does drink a few glasses of wine a day and having tried everything else, she is adamant that alcohol is the only acceptable painkiller for her to take for the rest of her life.
I mention this because I have roughly 1-3 drinks per night -what the doctor told my mother as "average for a Frenchman" - yet when I drink even a beer I lose all motivation to go to the gym that night or to cook a healthy and properly proportioned meal. So I think the way to define a drinking problem isn't in quantity, but by the opportunity cost of drinking or drinking too much on any given occasion.
There is low risk drinking, increased risk drinking, and high risk drinking. Alongside that you have dependant and non-dependant drinking (an addiction to alcohol).
To get a medically supervised withdrawal from alcohol in England a person meeds to be drinking 40 units per day. That's a litre of vodka at 40% ABV every day.
Low risk drinking is one or two drinks a day, with some days drink free.
>Another way of describing addiction is the presence of the 4 C's:
>Craving
>Loss of Control of amount or frequency of use
>Compulsion to use
>Use despite Consequences.
[1]: https://www.porticonetwork.ca/web/fundamentals-addiction-too...
Now, in my 40s, if I drink more than 1 maybe 2 beers, the next day I feel like a train hit me, and don't find nearly the same appeal as before.
What I dislike are the ads for alcohol. Nearly all of them start with the premise that you can't be cool unless you drink alcohol, or that because you drink you'll have lots of hot women nearby. Aside from the ads, its 'oh we have a lawyer show, lets make sure we have scene of them drinking scotch after a rough case' or a family show 'oh the dad came home lets show him going to his fridge and grabbing a beer' or a cop show 'he just shot someone, lets do a bar scene where he gets smashed'.
The question isn't about each individual's drinking problem. The question is about tech culture's drinking problem. And there's the answer: denial.
Seems to me this thread doesn't show denial at all. Most conclusions that people draw from particular threads are confirmation bias. That's especially true about the largely random initial state of a thread. Typically they soon fill up with comments contradicting the initial impression.
The topic of alcohol has appeared on HN many times, always generates active discussion, and never lacks for critical comments. If anything, anti-alcohol comments tend to dominate slightly.
Personally, I don't drink that much. I've had maybe 4 beers in the last month.
I resist the idea that not going is "lazy", however. "Lazy" is spending the work day reading Randall Munroe's "What if?" instead of working on the outstanding task list (I'll accept guilt on this one). Lazy should not be considered not attending extracurricular work activities.
> If you are too lazy to go drink one with your peers, then you will suffer less social success and poorer network, but I think you are being intentionally lazy, so you reap what you sow.
You think that someone is lazy because they don't want to drink? This is nuts. Is someone who doesn't share donuts in the morning also lazy? How about someone who doesn't eat pork? Are they lazy?
If this is really your attitude, if you really expect that people should feel obligated to drink, then you have a drinking culture problem.
Since when does tech even have a drinking culture, let alone a drinking problem? All the tech companies I've worked for have had a weekly happy hour where most people have a beer or two, and that's the extent of it. It's nothing like the sports world, where you have guys regularly downing 10 or 15 drinks on the bus or airplane. Or like the entertainment industry, where some of the top people in the field show up to work so shitfaced they can barely even stand up. Or like the mining industry in Siberia, where the nightly entertainment is/was sitting around with a bottle of vodka and some potatoes.
I think most companies and employers don't think like that because they simply assume everyone likes to drink which is incredibly closed minded. I've known other people, other than myself, who do not drink or cannot drink (because of unrelated health reasons) feel pressured to drink at work. I'm sure someone will say that one can refuse. That is true. One can indeed refuse, but not without negative consequences. One cannot refuse and still keep one's status and place. The refusal will be questioned, as if the refusal is the unnatural position, not the offer. I'm sure it's even more hellish for addicts who have to work at these places, but at least, they're quite used to unfair social stigma.
I don't really do "company outings" or hang around though. I'd rather see my girlfriend (who doesn't drink). Maybe the problem is having your friend base being based around "work" instead of around a healthy shared interest, like cycling, a rock climbing gym, soccer, etc.?
Honestly, I feel great if I don't drink. I sleep better, wake up early, exercise and feel energized and focused in the morning and throughout the day.
If I have a couple drinks at night (couple glasses of wine or 2-3 gin-and-tonics), I sleep with more restlessness, sometimes sleep late, and feel a slight difference in the morning (less focus and energy).
If I go bonkers and drink a bottle of red wine or 5+ cocktails...then I usually wake up later, usually sleep shitty, wake up with a foggy mind and sensitive stomach. Writing and debugging code in this state is a bitch.
I wear a fitbit that monitors my heart rate and measures restlessness during the night. I definitely notice increased restlessness AND about 10-15 beats per minute higher heart rate during the night after even just a few drinks.
So then after a day or two and at night, I think "hmmm a drink sounds nice"...
I do love my espresso though :)
My comment was mostly in jest because at the time of posting I don't think there was one mention of the word alcohol. Plus I thought programmers were more known for their coffee use rather than alcohol.
I will also add that I have no problem with caffeine, just coffee. Drink tea. Strong, black tea, with milk.
Getting drunk is fun. I'm in my late 30's, and I only very rarely get super super drunk like I did in my 20's (and I get hit with worse hangovers now if I do go all-out). But when the situation arises, getting past buzzed is enjoyable.
2 years ago, I stopped drinking for a week because of some prescription drug. That week turned into a month, turned into 2 years this month.
I haven't had a single drop of alcohol and I have never felt better. Looking back at the last 2 years, it seems as if I have gained 2 days of productivity per week, I've become a little bit (not a lot) better at everything... sharper, smarter, pro-active etc. Just enough to give the company that extra boost, it seems. We have recently achieved "awesome" and we're not stopping.
I've used this measure to check my drinking habits.
The college alcohol study from Harvard lists criteria, but they are all generally things that have clear negative impact. i.e. alcohol-related school problems, legal, interersonal problems. These are things that fit the traditional definition of alcoholism, i.e., "your drinking is screwing up your life". The college alcohol study also makes no mention of "high-functioning alcoholism" in either the press release or abstract, so I don't see how it's relevant to the article at all except that someone thought it lended credence to the claims.
The "high-functioning alcoholic" categorization seems really fishy to me. Somehow a person is overachieving, has no negative effects from alcohol consumption, and yet is an alcoholic? On what grounds is that claim made? Because they drink more than someone else thinks they should?
It's also a great drink to have when you're out drinking, if you need to pace or hydrate yourself.
Bonus: https://xkcd.com/323
"Somewhat influential halfwit logicrime found dead in hotel room, having drank himself to death. He was found on the floor with a bottle of Jack Daniels in his hand. He probably won't be missed, good riddance."
Unfortunately it's often much easier to access alcohol than any of the many other psychoactive substances, either prescribed or currently illegal. In comparison, alcohol is both physically and psychologically far less effective and more dangerous. I do drink myself, but there are many other drugs out there that I would much prefer that don't have the same accessibility or culture as drinking does.
I've been substituting kratom for drinking in when the opportunity arises and I've found it to be terrific improvement - much more relaxing/pleasant with less cognitive impairment, addictiveness and physical side effects.
Anyway, I guess my point is that I drink, and I think it sucks, but only because in comparison alternative substances are so much better (ex marijuana for many people). Of course this assumes moderation, safety etc. etc.
No, it's caffeine. In coffee, in soda, and tea.
1) Quitting had basically no social consequences. The friction of ordering a non-alcoholic drink at a bar is gone by the third time. Only one person gave me shit about it, and they were a friend-of-a-friend and easy to disregard.
2) It had almost no weight-loss effect, in the absence of other diet and exercise improvements. Premise was "does this one thing have a strong effect on my weight?". Given that my previous intake was moderate (< 8 units/week), removing alcohol and leaving the rest of my diet intact resulted in < 3 lbs lost early on, but no ongoing results.
I find the idea of that type of experiment fascinating, perhaps you documented it in more detail....?
Findings didn't change that much, but the break itself changed the way I drink, I think. Previously it was somewhat of a social default to just go out with some friends over a beer in the absence of other events. Being conditioned not to do that, and instead stay in and have a quiet night at home has given some perspective. I felt like I got a slight time gain on the evenings, but nothing serious.
Friction previously played a role. Especially in my early valley days when I was an intern, or in college, or as a contractor (negotiation/business things are hugely greased by alcohol), but now that I'm full time at more quiet company where drinking isn't embedded in the culture, the social friction aspect is basically gone. It's a per-social-circle thing for sure.
Unfortunately I did no detailed documentation. The stuff I'd want to measure would require months of prep/control gathering (eg: how do I use my post-work time before and during experiment)
Most interesting part of the whole thing was how uninteresting it was. There's the idea that drinking is socially necessary and horrible for your health. The idea that it's so meaningless is a little weird.
And it's possible that the non-alcoholic drinks -- soda and juices -- actually have more calories.
FWIW sugar-free sodas paradoxically do not promote weight loss. I recall reading that they are beginning to understand why this is but I don't recall the details now.
I want to stop, problem is it's just so much damn fun.
Those of you who are on the fence about not drinking, quit drinking and see how much better you life can get.