Logitech has a bad track record when it comes to hardware that requires ongoing services. I was a Logitech Alert customer, and had nothing but problems with both the hardware and the software. Their power line adapters would take down my entire network. And the software was buggy to the point that it was unusable.
They've abandoned the line of products and a class action lawsuit is in process.
In reality, they all do. This isn't just a logitech issue.
Remember that Microsoft couldn't even keep up their DRM servers for their Zune. I would think out of any technology company, MS would be the last to drop support for infrastructure.
It's just safer to consider any "cloud required" device to be a rental. Now, its up to the user if that rental is a good deal or not. Sometimes it can be (chromecast). Other times, it isn't.
I have come the same conclusion after the YouTube app on my smart tv of 4 years old was bricked. I still don’t know the best way to avoid this issue going forward (chromecast, roku, other).
With a smart TV there's at least the option to just switch to an external device and ignore the entire smart part of the TV. You're not really in a worse place than if you had bought a non-smart TV (unless the smart TV software actually breaks in some way that interferes with regular operations, which isn't entirely unrealistic).
But in many other cases of smart devices where the core function relies on external services, they'll be entirely useless.
My understanding is that it costs the manufacturer something like $5 difference to put what's essentially a Roku into a TV to make it "smart" (which kind of makes sense as you can buy a Roku stick for $30 retails and it has to have a case, cable, box, external hdmi connector, power etc.).
The manufacturer then sells the smart tv at a $25-50 premium over the dumb version and it's a decent profit for them.
FWIW - I was always skeptical of the onboard TV smart features, but the Samsung TV that I use a computer monitor actually is actually surprisingly decent.
Not exactly. Keep in mind the UEFI debacle with both Intel and AMD. Having an unknown attack vector on an old TV is less than desirable.
Aside from privacy, I like to think of it similar to musical keyboards. Back when synths were primitive, it made sense to buy a keyboard that had builtin speakers, synthesizer software/hardware - a smart keyboard if you will. Nowadays, the only thing you would want is a good set of keys. That means a midi controller with a baby grand/grand like keybed. [1] Best of all, it should be a lot cheaper than an all in one. And itll be just as good in 20 years as it is now - youll just run a different synth on your computer. All in ones dont make sense for many things. It may be a trend but its an overzealous and oversold one. Ill stick with my dumb midi instruments and my dumb projector. And hopefully theyll still be with me in 5 or more years.
Even if wifi isn't truly off, as long as it's not authenticated to a wifi network before it's turned off it is a measure more safe. If it looks for open networks... that's another thing.
I hate playing the "idiot, its obvious. downvoted" target. HN can be so vicious at times when you would expect someone else to fill in the junior level details. I guess my lesson is to include even the simple blackhat explanations. HN is probably lacking of that kind of crowd...maybe to a boon.
Anyhow, you are all wrong to disagree with me. There were just CVEs for radio chip exploits a couple of days ago! These have been coming out quite often lately. The layer at which these exploits can be done does not require the TV to be on any network. Not even ad-hoc. Just the fact that it has a listening radio chip that has old firmware is enough to make it extremely dangerous [digitally.] That TV can literally became a wifi enabled worm distribution center, infecting everything in your home. Not worth the risk IMO. I would stick with a dumb TV.
"targets didn't have to connect to the attacker's Wi-Fi network. Simply having Wi-Fi turned on was sufficient to being hacked."
I didn't downvote ya. Nor did I get any upvotes on this comment. You have a number of valid points - I wasn't aware of any issues if wifi is disabled.
Dumb TV's with sufficient quality are becoming harder and harder to find. I prefer to plug in my own smarts to TV's since they evolve quicker than the years I'll own a TV.
The smart TV can't log into a WiFi network when it doesn't know the password. And I don't think that there are any smart TVs with an embedded mobile phone data connection that you can't shut off.
My neighbor might run an unsecured network. Poorly designed software in a smart tv might cause my device to auto-join an open network. In this case, locking down my own WiFi would be irrelevant to the television.
This type of behavior was the cause of new Apple Watches that couldn’t access the net over 3G (they were trapped on captive WiFi networks with no UI to disconnect). If this happened with one device, it could happen with others.
I don't use the smart features of any tv either, mostly because the smarts evolve faster than my tv will and I'd rather just plug them into the TV, or through a receiver.
The problem with the Link is more or less "devices" that rely on the network for core functionality. So I'm not sure that a smart TV is the best parallel, as most of them from what I know will work without the Internet.
To go with the music world, the best parallel would be the increasingly annoying tendency for music software to move to "cloud" based offerings or other Internet authorization techniques. For instance Roland, with their "cloud plugins", apparently thinks all music venues have super spiffy wifi, as they require network authorization every time the plugin loads in the DAW. (https://www.rolandcloud.com/faq#FAQLink17) If Roland ever pulled this authorization scheme, poof, your plugins no longer work.
I have a 16 year old keyboard (Alesis Andromeda) and a synth that is a bit over a quarter of a century old (Roland D-50), and they both work fine more or less (a few issues here and there but nothing that stops me from using it). They don't need an Internet connection just to work. The companies can discontinue support (or even go bankrupt, in Alesis's case), and the synths still work.
Personally, I certainly do not have great confidence that the Roland Cloud authorization service will last a quarter century.
Hardware that requires the Internet to work is no different than software that requires the Internet to work, it honestly is a risky prospect for longevity. The Harmony Link from what I see was released in 2011. Maybe 7 years is a long time in this current disposable electronics world, but it doesn't feel like that to me.
Smart TV software can and will interfere with regular operations. My girlfriend's dad got a shiny new Smart TV for Christmas a few years back. He also lives in the sticks and has satellite internet that works maybe every other day.
I volunteered to set it up, and what do you know -- the "OS" was gated by a registration / sign in screen. So, no way to access core functionality (including external inputs, settings menu, etc.) without an internet connection. Even if there was some strange ritual that would let me get through (there wasn't), the average user is fucked.
My approach is to compartmentalise functionality. I have a dumb screen with a Chromecast plugged into it. The screen is the much more expensive part of this setup, but should last for a long time. It supports inputs which will almost certainly be usable, perhaps with dongles towards the end of its service, for at least a decade, if past tech is anything to go by.
The Chromecast could be discontinued tomorrow, but it only cost £30, so I'll just replace it with whatever. Relying on your expensive TV's probably terrible and badly supported software is madness, but it's what most people seem happy to do. It's getting harder and harder to buy TVs that are not smart, and I find it maddening.
I bought a Visio specifically because it could be dumb relatively recently (1-2 years).
I think a dumb screen option will always be available because it's always going to be a value player in a world of Sony and Samsungs. The question is will the screen be a nice enough panel.
My experience has been that you have to pay extra for a dumb TV right now, likely because of issues of scale. My last TV was an NEC E-series Commercial Display. Aside from not being encumbered by any smart-features, it has a serial port on it, to make automation even easier.
But I could have saved a lot of money by going with a conventional Smart TV, and it would have been easier to shop for it. Commercial displays aren't hanging on the wall at your local Best Buy, although they might be hanging on the wall at your local bar, restaurant, bank, etc.
Ditto. My chromecast just stopped working with my perfectly working 5 year old TV. Same chromecast works on newer monitors or TVs...google are just ignoring
I'll add to this: absolutely no good can come from plugging your TV specifically into the Internet. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch.
As soon as you do you'll get nagged for software updates, you'll get told the privacy policy or the terms of service have changed (which you have to acknowledge) and apps for things like Youtube and Netflix tend to be inferior to those in boxes (eg Roku, AppleTV).
I buy my TV to be a dumb screen. Then I plug a Roku into it. If at some point I decide the Roku isn't working I throw it away and get something else. Worst case I'm out $120.
Oh, gotcha, I misread your original post. I thought you were talking about truly "dumb" TVs.
Non-smart TVs basically don't exist anymore (Sceptre is the only brand I can find). You can usually get a smart TV and keep it off the internet, but I've seen horror stories of some TVs not working at all until being "updated" after unboxing.
We need a law that requires things work out of the box and can work while not connected to the net. Bonus points for requiring off switches for the "smart" features.
A similar pet peeve of mine is that the huge infotainment screens on modern cars cannot be turned off the majority of the time. Only in the VW Golf I rented did it actually have a way to shut the whole thing down.
I thought the meaning was clear. The good panels are put in smart TVs and not non-smart ones, so even if you have no interest in using smart features the smart TV may be a better choice.
Exactly. If you want an OLED TV, you get a smart TV whether you want that or not. I’d rather buy a dumb TV, but that’s becoming less of an option for higher end TVs.
It may be about time to buy only dumb monitors, and buy the television tuner portion as a separate box, if you even still need one.
Of all the television sets I have owned since 1985, the native tuner included inside the device has been used maybe 2% of the time. The only advantage I have ever seen from buying a display screen as a television set is that it comes with speakers loud enough to hear from across a large room, and has as many as six different input ports. None of the screens I now own currently decode their own NTSC/ATSC/QAM signals.
My first "smart" TV was also my last, because LG made it obsolete within months of me buying it. Now it also functions only as a dumb screen, and is not allowed on my home network. Never again.
You don't need a smart television now. You don't even need a television. You need a monitor with HDMI inputs and speakers.
I went down this path a few years ago. You're right, but monitors of size X tend to be much more expensive than TVs of size X. At least they did a few years ago.
And at this point, I would be willing to pay slightly more to not pack stuff into the case that I don't want, which may negatively impact the features that I do want.
And if you want a DisplayPort input in lieu of one of the HDMI sockets, that seems to add at least $30 to an otherwise identical monitor, even though DisplayPort is royalty-free. There does seem to be an attempt to segment the market to charge more for displays connected to a computer than for displays connected to a home entertainment appliance.
At larger sizes, I think the assumption is that if you don't have a TV tuner, you're attaching it to a computer, and if you do, you're not. And that breaks down at smaller sizes, where resolution and pixel pitch become an issue for computing, but less so for consoles and DVD players.
I use the tuner, but, on the other hand, some budget TVs don't even have them. But like the other guy said, I haven't seen a lot of great deals on 65" monitors.
For large sizes like that, I think you may be able to get good deals on a sort of larger dumb monitor that is used in airports to display flight information, and to a lesser extent rotating decks of static advertisements. They aren't typically sold direct to consumers. I'm not sure whether their pixel response times are good enough for regular entertainment video streams, though.
I haven't done much digging on this, since 40" is plenty for the longest line-of-sight possible in my house.
Maybe...? It is certainly the case that many non-smart TVs are focused on the signage industry. They might be brighter and more saturated than a conventional TV. They might be less capable of displaying smooth motion. On the other hand, they're built to be somewhat more sturdy and with more professional features. They have additional mounting features, serial port controls, and the build quality to run 24/7.
I'm using an NEC E-series 55" commercial display as my TV and gaming monitor. It's not a great TV, but it is solid and it's way better than the one it replaced.
I agree, but this is not always possible. I was in the market for a new TV set couple of months ago and all the models with a great image technology come with the "smart tv" built in.
It is not possible to buy a high-end panel without it anymore.
Sure, but it's totally possible to just sit on the sofa and watch it rather than type in your wifi password and connect it to the internet.
AS long as you just use it as a dumb screen, physically disconnected from the network, it'll keep doing it's job for year and years.
My TV is a Smart TV. I've never use that part of it. In fact, it came with a second remote control for managing the Smart features and I've never even put batteries in it let alone given the panel network access.
It's been happily humming along in dumb mode for about 4 years I think. Just plug a cheap accessory of your choice in (Fire TV, Chromecast, Roku, self built HTPC etc) and enjoy!
Chromecast will work, it's relatively cheap so if it stops working after an X amount of years it's less of a financial pain than having to buy a new TV for the same functionality. The other side of the throw-away society and/or planned obsolescence is that replacing things becomes cheaper. I mean there's probably even cheaper alternatives than the Chromecast if you're on a budget.
A dedicated computer for this is quite expensive, and using your regular desktop is somewhat annoying in various aspects like switching screen configurations and often not possible if you don't have the PC near the TV.
Then there are the complications DRM adds, e.g. it's often not possible to get the best quality from Netflix on your PC in the browser, you only get that with the native Windows 10 app (and then not 4K unless you have some very specific GPU and drivers). The Apps on a smart TV or a FireTV/whatever don't have these restrictions.
It's not even the cost, but using a HTPC with the common streaming providers has become quite a chore nowadays, with horrible UX.
With Netflix you at least get an app and the possibility to stream with highest quality (4K, HDR, multichannel sound), but the app is extremely basic and clearly only optimized for touch - it doesn't even offer basic keyboard shortcuts beyond start/stop.
You can get a somewhat near-HTPC using Chrome (at least shortcuts work there) and some customizing, but you're stuck with stereo (I'm not sure about 4K/HDR, but the latter is no-go enough for me to not have tried).
The same goes for Amazon Video, except that they don't even have an app outside Android/iOS, so you're stuck with stereo anyway.
And so on. It would be downright embarassing, if it weren't so obvious this is intentional...
First, price. I think this is the biggest factor. You need a computer (for each TV). I don't think there are too many computers (if any) in the $35-$150 range that can handle smoothly playing HD video and pushing it to an external display. Assuming the machine isn't dedicated and you already own it, it breaks point 2 below.
Second, I haven't seen a good setup for controlling a computer connected to a TV. Granted, I stopped looking a few years ago. For me (and I'd assume most people), "good setup" means ability to turn system on and control it remotely, at a minimum. I'm sure one exists, but it would definitely require even more hardware (cuts into price) and more custom setup.
Third, some people might not have the technical know-how to set up something that meets the above two things. Sure, plenty of us technical people can do it, but it's not hard to understand that we are the minority.
tl;dr there's nothing "wrong" with using a computer and an HDMI cable, but there are plenty of compelling reasons these days to use one of the ultra cheap boxes. They are basically cheap purpose-specific computers, anyway. Ultimately, different people have different needs and priorities.
I have come to the same conclusion. There needs to be more IoT devices that function like that though. It is difficult to find ones that meet those requirements.
Does anyone know of a good smart thermostat with an api that can be used without a proprietary cloud?
It's still a maker/hobby space thing as far as I can tell. Using Home Assistant with a few relays and an Esp8266 gives you a powerful smart thermostat for a few bucks but isn't the most trivial thing in the world to get going.
If you look at Z-wave enabled thermostats you’ll have some luck. Z-wave devices form their own local mesh network and can be controlled by offline devices in your home.
The API would be provided by something like Mi Casa Verde running on some hardware in your house.
You can do everything the cloud services enable, locally, such as ‘scenes’ where you press a button and multiple things happen at once.
There are of course some trade-offs with Z-wave. It’s proprietary and expensive (compared to other things) to license. You’ll find a much more limited selection of Z-wave devices compared to BT or WiFi.
They make Z-wave controllers for raspberry pi and such. I’ve seen plenty of projects that used Mi Casa Verde to enable phone support and automation without going to someone else’s cloud.
For what it’s worth, I’ve got z-wave switches for nearly every switch in my house, a few electrical outlets, and a few corded adapters.
The adapters and outlets are great come holiday time. The outlets are paired with light switches in kids’ rooms so when we turn on the switch for their white noise machines some under bed night lights come on.
I used to use a Z-Wave thermostat and it worked just fine, I switched to an Ecobee 3 with room sensors to help better manage hot/cold spots.
I tie it all together with a Wink Hub, so it’s going to someone else’s cloud. I like their app on my phone better and it just works and has no monthly cost. They’ve got an API to integrate with, and have generally been nice to work with.
I specifically chose Z-wave though to give me options if they go under or I decide to cut ties and run my own stuff.
the problem is that the four big consumer z-wave hubs all have the cloud entanglement issue. Wink, Smartthings, Amazon and Vera all sell you a piece of hardware that only works as long as they're providing their free cloud service. It's completely unsustainable in it's current model. Vera purports to be completely local, but as of UIv8, they've made all communications steer through their cloud proxy service to enable a seamless mobile UI at the expense of reliability, latency, security and sustainability.
I've been working on moving my Vera controlled zwave network to home-assistant.io and an aeon labs zwave USB gateway, but haven't made much progress because zwave devices all rely on inputting rhythmic patterns of button presses locally to reprogram them.
There's no way to make this sound non-insulting to the person I originally responded to, but one of my most-hated pet peeves is the "it's easy, just <8 year old's solution to a problem>" comment.
What if the API is open sourced and it doesn’t matter because the device is not open sourced and provides no way to point it to an equivalent API service?
I think that's slightly simpler to work around - my mom probably wouldn't be able to do it without help, but most people commenting here could redirect DNS requests to point to your own API.
Sure. But assuming Logitech isn’t completely incompetent, that connection will be TLS and the device will refuse to handshake when it receives some random cert that doesn’t match the domain it expects (or is signed by a CA it doesn’t trust).
Ok, the API docs start with: "The devices makes a HTTPS request to product.company.com using a pinned public key." They aren't going to publish their private key or let you control their servers.
>I don't want to buy into a single IoT thing which depends on a cloud-component in order to work.
I agree but in some cases, you end up with such a restrictive product because it's part of a system package.
For example, I recently bought a new Trane air conditioner system and it comes with a fancy system controller.[1] It has wifi so Trane promotes the capability for you to control the temperature remotely from your smartphone. Well, the IoT rub is that it requires the cloud for that capability. When I first heard that explained to me by the installer, I had to have him repeat it twice because it didn't make any sense.
"You mean my iPhone that's on wifi doesn't communicate with this thermostat that's on the same wifi -- directly? You mean the thermostat app on my iPhone has to send the "increase temperature" command out of the house to the mothership cloud, and then round trip back to my thermostat?!? Yes, that's how it works." That's crazy -- If the internet is down, my iPhone can't control the thermostat that's 10 feet away!
Needless to say, I just forego the smartphone remote app and simply walk up to the thermostat and change the settings on the wall.
One explanation is "laziness." Local networking is surprisingly hard (physically adjacent devices are not always adjacent topologically, AP client isolation and tigers and bears, oh my!), just polling a server Out In The Cloud via HTTP is dead simple by comparison. In other words, "1. cut a few corners, 2. trash the device in a few quarters, 3. PROFIT!"
Yes, your explanation is plausible. When I thought about it, the best theory I could come up was that they assumed the smartphone would usually be away from the home -- as in, you're sitting at your job and use the remote app to raise the temperature an hour before you commuted home. If that was the common use case, Trane needed a centralized cloud server (like Nexia[1]) to enable that since the wifi thermostat at home would likely be behind an ISP firewall.
smartphone at the office --> cloud --> thermostat home
The problem is that the engineers made the command flow with the cloud as the only method of communication instead of enabling a secondary communication that lets 2 wifi devices talk directly. Obviously, direct wifi communication is technically possible since people buy inkjet wifi printers and their wifi laptops print directly to them every day. People would be livid if they couldn't print their paper just because the internet down or the vendor's cloud server had an outage for "maintenance". The data sent from the computer to the printer does not roundtrip up to the cloud and back down to the printer.
Oh, it's theoretically possible all right. I'm not buying any wifi-direct printer ever again, though. (Because, as I said earlier, local networking is hard, and most attempts at it fail miserably - people are livid when their damn printer refuses to print, and they don't give a damn if it's a cloud issue or their computer refusing to play nice with their printer)
>their computer refusing to play nice with their printer
Yes, you reminded me of a very good point about local wifi communications:
If 2 devices are on wifi, it's easier if both are configured as clients that talk to a 3rd server (such as cloud). When both act as clients, they don't need to know each other's ip address to communicate.
The other option of configuring one of the wifi devices as a server is more difficult especially for non-techies. Now, you have an extra complication of discovering the ip address of the printer/camera acting as a "server" to receive commands. This requires a weird dance where the server device has to "broadcast" itself and you have the client computers "find" it. For my Canon wifi printer, I had to press and hold down the power button a certain way so the computer could "discover" it. For my wifi camera, I had to go the DOS prompt and enter an obscure ARP command[1]. The difficulty is compounded when the "server" device has no builtin LCD display so you're basically "flying blind" as to what ip address it got from the wifi router's DHCP.
However, the HVAC wall controller has a large LCD display and touchpad so configuring it as a server on local wifi shouldn't be that difficult.
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about two posts up: Shouldn't be a problem, but a large number of unknowns enter into the equation - such as the client AP isolation, where two WiFi client devices don't see each other: the AP just drops packets coming from one destined to the other. The user's network might have this on, and the user may not even be aware of it. Even if thus is OK, finding a server in the local network is not straightforward, even with Zeroconf/Avahi. And those are just a few out of many issues.
If twitter wasn't retarded, they absolutely could have hosted small scraps of key value data for exactly this scenario. No extra cloud provider needed.
That's pretty much how all modern IoT crapware works now. It has to build a tunnel through my NAT to the cloud so I can control it with my phone, which I never need to do unless I'm standing in my living room, and they have the nerve to tell me this is a feature rather than a bug. All so they can better monetize me by charging me a monthly fee, arbitrarily alter the functionality of my device through unwanted software upgrades, and spy on me and sell my data to advertisers. No thanks, assholes. If your device doesn't work without knowing my router's access code, sayonara.
Same thing with Nest and Dropcam and pretty much all of the IoT trash. It's sitting there in my house, within WiFi range of any device that would be controlling it, yet it has to route all commands (and maddeningly, video, in the case of Dropcam) out through the Internet connection and back into my house through the same Internet connection.
Total bonkers. Silicon Valley only knows how to make web services apparently.
and with Bonjour/Avahi zeroconf, this should be a totally workable thing - but there are security issues with this approach, and in general its more complex to implement right and have it "just work" - so they choose the easy route and use the cloud.
This really highlights the need for always-on internet and fallbacks to a cell network if the IoT-connect fantasy world they keep selling is ever going to be a reality.
If your IoT device depends on the internet for functionality it really should be able to connect to cell networks, not just wifi. The only problem is the security risks with that, but it doesn't expand the attack surface that much more than having a cloud-connected device as it is.
Some proposals for future 'smart cities' is having CAT-6 LTE (which can be as fast as most home broadband connections) broadcasting everywhere and having all the devices connected to that, so you don't have to depend on your home wifi staying on or being in range.
If you would actually rent them the service provider would be incentivized to keep the service running, but the actual payment model is worse than that: fixed up-front payment for at-will termination. It would be plain obvious to everybody that this can't possibly work out, had we not all been brainwashed by two decades of gratis service on the ad-financed web.
I have a Logitech Harmony Hub with simple remote, and I would say the radio control (non line of sight) between remote and hub is great. The hub has the ir transmitters in it, and it's sitting inside a cabinet with everything else, and there's an external ir blaster that sits just above to control the tv.
Mine controls tv, Nvidia Shield, Logitech z5500 speakers, and a Blu-ray player. I believe the Shield is controlled by Bluetooth.
Because the Shield is a Google cast receiver, I can press the music button and it leaves the tv off but allows us to cast music (or just play something from the shield with sound only). Everything else is as straight forward as you'd expect, one litmus test is that visitors are able to figure it out easily. I used to have one of the remotes with an lcd screen and I'm not sure it was as straight forward, partly because the remote was so intimidating.
Harmony Hub w/ simple remote is the best universal remote out there hands down. I can stand in the kitchen, leave my remote in my pocket while cooking, and just reach in and blindly adjust things like volume, play/pause, FF/RR, all without looking at the remote or taking it out of my pocket. After dealing with a logitech with a screen on it for years this was an amazing change. Also the battery last for like forever.
I bought a Logitech Harmony remote that had a touchscreen. It was very expensive and a total piece of garbage. I think we put up with it for about a month before my family asked for the separate TV, receiver, and cable box remotes back.
According to a Reddit user [1] they sent the following email to all device owners:
---
Dear [...],
This is an important update regarding your Harmony Link. On March 16, 2018, Logitech will discontinue service and support for Harmony Link. Your Harmony Link will no longer function after this date.
Although your Harmony Link is no longer under warranty, we are offering you a 35% discount on a new Harmony Hub. Harmony Hub offers app-based remote control features similar to Harmony Link, but with the added benefit of the ability to control many popular connected home devices. To receive your discounted Harmony Hub, go to logitech.com, add Harmony Hub to your cart, and use your personal one-time promotional code [...] during checkout.
Thank you for being a Logitech customer and we hope you will take advantage of this offer to upgrade to a new Harmony Hub.If you have any questions or concerns about Harmony Link, please email the Harmony customer care team.
That's a shitty way to do it. The better way would be to give them a two year notice, with the discount. By the end, most people would probably have upgraded.
"By the end, most people would probably have upgraded.".
Or switched to a different product. IoT products shouldn't depend on the cloud -- or they should explicitly indicate a certain number of years of support based on the purchase date (so the customer knows what they're signing up for)
According to other posts on that thread, they were also clearancing them in the past few months with a 3-month warranty, so you could purchase one and have it work for < 1 year before it turned into a 35% discount on another Logitech purchase.
Frankly that seems scummier than just EOL/EOS of the product.
Logitech is one of these hardware companies that don't care anymore about their customers, the other is Microsoft. I would like to buy new Logitech mouse and keyboard, yet the discontinued the very popular (and best) Logitech MX500/518 and G400 series. The best form factor, the best sturdy robust mechanics, yet the discontinued those series. And they focus now on expensive shitty new designs that no one needs. The same dysfunctional customer experience is with Microsoft hardware, all the great mouse (Intelli series, 6000 series) and keyboard (cable based, robust, traditional key arrangement) products, all discontinued. So I had to locate new unused hardware produced by MS & Logitech many years ago from all over the world, just to have some backup hardware. And no I don't want your crappy new hardware that will make my hands hurt.
Fortunately there are a lot of good options for mechanical keyboards from smaller vendors. I haven't been able to find a decent trackball (I miss the old corded thumb trackball Logitech used to make), though :(
Logitech just released a new trackball mouse, I believe it's called the Logitech Ergo. It's very nice. I recently swore off buying Logitech products because of bluetooth connectivity issues, but I still bought it because it seems to be a lot easier on my hand (right hand only I believe).
> Logitech is one of these hardware companies that don't care anymore about their customers
My experience, historically, has been the exact opposite. While they do discontinue products I love, the few times I've had to call upon their tech support they've been as helpful as could be.
Couldn't agree more, the new logitech mice are awful. I have a spare G400 in case this one breaks but thanks to ebay cord repair kits my original is still going strong.
Yes, the Logitech MX500 was the one longest lasting mouse I had. I had one for so many years (>5years at least) and after that, the mice I bought, even expensive ones, lasted only for 1-6 months, not longer.
The Logitech MX518 is a great mouse. I've got two that have been running forever.
Be careful though: there are cheap knockoffs that flooded ebay a while ago. I ordered some and they are definitely not the same thing as the original. They work, but the feel isn't there, and that Logitech symbol is strangely bubbled up and protrudes above the surface of the mouse.
I've gotten nothing but good customer service from them. Over the years I've had an out of warranty mouse and 2 bluetooth speakers replaced with newer versions.
maybe it has kind of similar shape at best and looks quite alien design, looks uncomfortable and very "gamer", doesn't look like a normal mouse for office use
while MX500/MX518/G400 have the very same comfortable shape
None, but they were selling these things very recently. They had a clearance sale. I'm sure someone in Logitech knew they were going to EOL these things and sold them anyway. That is getting into consumer fraud territory.
And do what? Logitech hasn't established a specific duty (inc. contract) to keep their devices online for any length of time. So therefore the only test might be "reasonable expectation" which is a pretty low bar.
The FTC are likely pretty powerless in this situation. Only negative PR and taking your business elsewhere may assist here but given the lack of competition in this space, good luck!
Only related, and maybe it's because it's hard to differentiate themselves but I always felt there was only mediocre products and companies in the space of mouses and keyboards (other than kb with cherry mx switches). Moreover their softwares/drivers are usually even worse than their hw.
As with most things, you'll only find mediocre products if you don't look very hard. Most people would scoff at a keyboard that cost more than $50, and so almost every store stocks keyboards that cost less than $50 and are as mediocre as they come.
I would also encourage you to look into the broad range of keyboards and pointing devices that exist out there. Mechanical keyboards are more than just Cherry MX switches. In terms of pointing devices, I use a CST Trackball for instance, and it's borderline industrial.
One pleasant surprise that I had with my new receiver that I hadn't realized: Modern HDMI has a control bus that will replicate commands like powering on, changing channels, changing volumes, etc. along the bus and other compliant components will play along.
That means that with my receiver and TV, my Xfinity remote is able to control everything I need it to in my entertainment center.
I was getting kind of bummed about the sad state of Logitech Harmony remotes as my old one was failing on me - but it turns out that it no longer matters.
Which can be a pain in the rear. I was having a problem with my TV turning on randomly. It turned out that when my Amazon fire was waking up (no clue why it needed to), my TV registered the signal and turned on automatically.
Luckily you can disable the CEC stuff on the TV, which solved the problem.
Some TVs you can disable the power on feature specifically without disabling CEC completely. I have the option to do so on both my Samsung TVs and my LG one too.
This raises a good point of why connecting gear to the cloud that doesn't need to be comes to bite ya.
Ongoing cloud costs for eol products will kill old products quicker.. That shouldn't be connected to, or rely on the cloud.
I own harmony hubs and will have to figure out how to leave.
EDIT: I'll look for products that are hybrid-cloud enabled - ones that offer locally stored and run backends (perhaps an offline-first progressive web apps as control panels that can sync to a cloud API if it exists).
Yes, my reaction too is that it means I can't trust my Harmony Hub won't get similarly ditched, so I'll be looking for non-Logitech alternatives. Even if it ends up never being affected by the same, they've ensured I don't trust them any more.
I don't understand this. So just because Logitech doesn't see it as feasible to renew a technology certificate with some company, they have to step on their consumers who've already spent their money on Logitech's product?
That's just horrid, and a bad look (and bad consumer relations). I might he stating the obvious, but if a company is going to temporarily license a technology and then develop a product for consumer markets they would do well to continually renew their certs. To do otherwise and act how they did seeds doubt: are we simply buying into a temporarily functioning product that can cease functioning at any time at the whim of the manufacturer? If so why are we buying from them at all if the product we get isn't truly ours?
> are we simply buying into a temporarily functioning product that can cease functioning at any time at the whim of the manufacturer?
This happens a lot. I own several software/hardware products that no longer function because the ecosystem moved on and the company stopped updating the software (either for business reasons or because they simply went out of business)..
The hardware itself is totally fine, I just can't use it anymore because the closed-sourced software is not available or not compatible with my operating system(s).
And it is a bad look for sure. I'm definitely not buying any products from any of those companies anymore.. The ones that still exist at least.
> Samsung removed that app for no reason that benefited me
I think it was Microsoft who decided to stop supporting Skype for TV, not Samsung [1]. Did you find a replacement? Perhaps a third-party device that could be connected to TV? I am in the marker for a living room Skype system and I can't find anything suitable.
Severe security vulnerability that they'd rather keep under wraps than admit to and patch? Hard to imagine what else would be worth the ill will from consumers, I'd characterize Harmony is one of Logitech's flagship consumer product lines. Is this a Galaxy Gear type situation, but with something that would be a poison pill for IoT and is maybe even effectively unfixable/compromised at the hardware level? March 2018 seems like a long time to wait in that case, though.
Edit: According to a user on Reddit, Logitech's had the Link products on "fire sale" a number of times over the last 6 months, with a 3 month warranty. So they've run the inventory out, with warranty terms that exclude the buyers from the replacement program. It seems like the most plausible reason is greed.
An old town I lived in had a massage parlor that did something similar (and no, this isnt an euphemism - they were a legit massage place).
They sold gift certificates at a sale: You would buy $50 certificate, and then get $25 to use next month. They got a load of people to buy them, cause it's a pretty good deal.
Then within 2 weeks, they closed up shop. The local county prosecutor said that "knowingly selling gift certificates they did not plan on intending to honor was fraud-like, and would be investigated." And, it was more than investigated. They hauled their asses in court, and came to a settlement that all funds were to be returned. Evidently, there was a fraud charge mentioned for each certificate... Make them come to their senses.
Too bad we can't do similar for bigger actors that violate the public trust, or engage in fraudulent behaviors. Cause I see a pretty straight-forward "Knowingly selling hardware that we will remotely kill just outside of the <cough> warranty period" sure seems to smell like fraud.
This is a fairly new problem which is caused by the device you buy having a subscription like link to some central server. Older and normal gadgets like a Bluetooth headphone simply don't check-in with a central server to see if they should turn on.
I received a similar email from Scanadu Scout this year (an Indiegogo product that allowed you to scan your body for heart rate, bp and a few other metrics).
However, in their corporate greed they decided that the Bluetooth device you bought should connect to your phone only as a router to their server. If they had stored their algorithms in the app there's no problem if they decide to shutdown analytics servers one day...
They branded it as 'end of beta test' or something like that. I can post the full email if someone wants. Too bad, very useful little device that could have worked for years to come.
My suspicion is they can't afford to or are no longer able to license some technology behind the scenes anymore. Probably the TV show feeds.
When a piece of software we used (local install) was bought out by a big company, they refused to renew our license and gave us a hard date after which we could no longer have it operational.
Our response was exactly this, "Sorry Customer, as of Date, Service will no longer be available." Customers were pissed, they just could not understand that just because the software could still run, we didn't have the rights to run it anymore.
Well if this isn't the most validating and ringing endorsement of privately-hosted, open source home automation stuff like Home Assistant [1], I don't know what is. I rigged it with $2 of infrared LED transmitters and receivers hooked to my raspberry pi and automated my TV, stereo, and air conditioner [2]. I am so glad I did this now. I think there is big business, on the order of a full-on electrician, in going around and setting up Home Assistant, some zwave stuff, some IR stuff, etc. in people's homes.
Every house should and likely will have a Home Assistant type appliance in their home that stays with it as homes become 'smarter', a Pi would suffice.
Getting home assistant setup is my xmas project. Kind of want to get rid of my Nest if I can.
Almost definitely. I immediately got one for my mom and she just loves it when the house warms up before she wakes up, when the birds chirp (over the stereo) over the stereo as she comes downstairs in the morning, as the northern loon calls exactly at sunset (over the stereo), and a bunch of other goofy stuff. Not to mention the full-on security system that sends email pictures of intruders when it's set off.
If you have a temperature sensor and a relay getting rid of Nest can be pretty easy and cheap with Home Assistant (for the DIY-inclined) as well [1].
That's great and I hope there's a fantastic open source community for home automation, especially as I'm getting into it myself this season. But I would wager 99% of home automation consumers won't, don't, or can't do DIY software solutions. So I'm not sure this bonehead move by Logitech really validates the DIY solution, as I don't see one covering the others' market.
I agree that DIY isn't a great solution for most people, especially if it involves writing your own software. But as the Home Assistant community grows there are more and more pre-built, highly capable open-source modules for Pi's and ESP8266's and whatever that entrepreneurs could start selling, installing, and servicing them at normal people's homes for megabucks. I think it's a big market.
> But I would wager 99% of home automation consumers won't, don't, or can't do DIY software solutions.
It's more about hardware. Good luck getting your fire insurance cover damages when your Alibaba sourced board that you operate on the mains (via Alibaba source AC/DC converter) fries your living room.
The issues with DIY here are not hard issues in themselves (grounding, heat protection/ventilation), but they require a custom casing solution which is kind of hard if you don't want to end up with weird looking industrial cases on your wall and ceiling.
You can build a system that simply controls commercially sourced, UL listed, mains equipment. That top level comment mentioned using IR but you can also control cheap 433Mhz outlets with simple transmitters and a library like rc-switch for arduino[0].
Home assistant also integrates well with openzwave so you can use most zwave devices including a variety of switches.
The first rule of AliExpress is you don't buy anything that comes into contact with >12V on AliExpress unless you want to start a fire. The logic board probably isn't going to set your living room ablaze.
HomeAssistant is getting close to being idiot proof.
Interface configuration still requires writing some YAML (unless the editor got better since I last looked at it), but installation and configuration is now extremely simple.
It'll still need someone to turn it into a product if "normies" are going to get into it. Literally any amount of DIY or even DIY-adjacent work is too much.
I think it's not so much that this Logitech issue validates DIY, as the fact that it validates not relying on external services. Using stuff that will still work if the company shuts down.
The problem with home automation is that it is so expensive just from a hardware standpoint (you’re talking $50 light switches instead of $2 light switches) that most folks willing to pay for it are already served by existing home automation vendors (most of whom are independent contractors).
You’re not going to convince your average homeowner to replace $100 of mechanical light switches that last forever with $3000 of IoT switches that have to be replaced every 10 years or so. You’re really not going to convince them to drop another $2000 on configuration.
By far the biggest use case is in home theaters, which is already a well-served market. Pro-level home theater installers have been putting in these systems for 20 years; they’ve just become cheaper. The pros definitely use this stuff too; open source is pure margin on an install versus a commercial solution.
Yes, most of the ready-to-use solutions like Philips Hue are very expensive. But there are cheaper options if you're willing to tinker a little bit (and wait a month for things to arrive from China), like $13 smart light switches (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Sonoff-Touch/32808809484.htm...) etc.
I'm still looking for a solution that's inexpensive and gets out of my way (i.e., is aware of what's going on) without phoning home to some server ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Reliability is a big question here. I don't want to deal with replacing failures, and the risk of fire can be high (a lot of these chinese electronics don't use adequate gague wires or have legible datasheets to even be able to plan current draw).
And even with all that, I'm just not sure that a fully-automated home provides enough benefit to be worth the headache for the majority of folks. I'm in the top 1% of income, I set up my own system and it's nice; but even I don't think it's worth what I paid for it.
Most likely it validates the success of Samsung's SmartThings platform. Coupled with Z-Wave and ZigBee devices, SmartThings seems to have 'conquered' the DYI part of the home automation market.
I was thinking of going with some out-of-the-box hardware to do it but like you said, there's no greater control over a system than building it yourself.
Looks like I'll be buying parts and building my own equipment soon.
I worked in the CEDIA industry for a number of years, and was in direct competition with Logitech-- at one point we were even going to buy their remote division. My company was allergic to sustaining engineering. We would toss a buggy 1.0 iOS / Android app onto their respective stores and then forget about them. It felt dirty. I hated it.
When Apple's 64-bit transition happened, I dutifully warned my managers, was given no resources to get out ahead of the problem, and a year later all of our apps were kicked out of the App Store. It was hilarious, but not for our customers. :-/
Has the company continued to make a healthy profit? I mean, I'd hope that customers would care but sometimes I wonder if it actually affects the bottom line?
Yes they do. Most of the income is derived from B2B sales such that you don't know you're buying the product. Just like LifeLock is really just reselling Equifax credit monitoring :)
I want to spend money, but just reaching for the CC starts giving me the hives. Buyer's Premorse, regret for things not yet occurred. Why does everything suck?
If you want deep insight into the remote control market-- I am your man-- humanity, doubly so.
Regarding humanity, the most important thing about any issue is what you're not considering. As humans we accumulate experience in proportion to our exposure to it. We are most vulnerable when life does not afford us an opportunity to accumulate that experience.
Things people get ripped of on? Home purchases, cars, funerals, weddings, etc. you won't have an opportunity to accumulate more than a few of these experiences in your lifetime. You cant extrapolate a larger pattern from your interactions.
As someone who has designed dozens of control surfaces-- let me you-- the problem is this: two dollar remote controls-- and believe me, tahts what we sold them to our OEMs for-- are "heads up" interfaces. Ipads, iphones, etc are "heads down" interfaces.
A single function, 2$ remote with no display at all is a tactile interface. You can in the complete dark control your TV more or less.
Our flagship, $1200 remote, wasn't as functional. People bought it anyways. I honestly don't know why.
> We are most vulnerable when life does not afford us an opportunity to accumulate that experience.
We fuck up the things we only do once.
Scammers will gravitate to those events as they don't get punished by bad behavior. Ahhh, and this is why people use the big business, been around awhile car dealerships, funeral homes, etc. They get a solid dependable level of shafting instead of total shafting.
I have yet to find a wireless bluetooth headset where I can reliably (more than 100 button pressed) operate the device when it is on my head.
How do we fix capacitive touch buttons? Vibrator motor? Injection molded textures? Moar beeping?
Anytime a smart home startup shuts down someone makes the ‘cloud is bad’ argument on HN. It shows that you have never actually talked to a paying smart home user. All industry surveys show a top 3 reason people buy smart home gadgets is ‘peace of mind’ ie being able to check in and control the home when they are away. Since few Americans have a static IP address, ‘peace of mind’ is only possible with a cloud service.
You can build an end simple end user system with DDNS and OpnenVPN on the home router without going with static IP or cloud based services (outside DDNS obviously)
Having done this, I can tell you many smart home users do not even know how to change the password on their WiFi router. Installing OpenVPN is a non-starter.
What if someone packaged openvpn on a $50 box with home assistant pre intalled and had gui wizards to set everything up? Seems pretty doable to me. Just needs a founder.
the harmony works with my firetv as well. So now I need to figure out how to get some bluetooth protocol to work. I need a good remote for the raspberry pi. I'd like alexa integration too.
If in Europe: please contact your local consumers organisation or legal assistance insurance and go get your rights! We need case law to go all the way up, even on the smaller losses usually involved in consument product conflicts.
Irregardless of small print, if it's not clear from the outset there is some part of 'lease' (of certificates) involved it seems pretty straightforward to annul your agreement of purchase once the product stops working within the period you could normally have expected it to function correctly. (Even if it is clear from the outset, the day my Philips Netflix-integrated TV With Netflix Button (R) stops showing Netflix, I'm going for it.)
The nice thing about annulment is 100% money back. The less nice thing about anulment is that it is the store that has to pay you back, not the companing producing the product. They need to sort out liability among themselves. It's producers thinking this is acceptable behaviour that starts it. The retailer is only the middle man.
Are there any alternative servers and Hub/Link firmware out there that we can run ourselves? A quick search isn't turning up anything. I'd rather not give up Harmony remotes; I use my Xbox One as my main media center and the Harmony Remotes are probably the easiest method for controlling it.
Brand loyalty is not rewarded. I will never buy into IoT exactly because of d*ck moves likes this. I also love how they inform the owners 'sorry we're killing your device, but you're entitled to a discount to buy a replacement from us'. Nicely absent is the reassurance they won't pull exactly this stunt again with the replacement hardware!
Also: short paragraph: bad news, device being killed. Longer paragraph: sales pitch...
I'll probably keep buying Logitech peripherals because they are very good quality, but the moment they make a cloud-dependent mouse, I'm out.
I found a review of the Harmony Link because I have no idea what, exactly, it is. From what I can tell it's basically an IR blaster that can be controlled via an iPad/iPhone/Android app. There are some value-add features, like access to local TV listings from the app. It sounds like there were limitations, such as not being able to actually schedule recordings from it - in fairness, the review I found was from 2011 and firmware/app updates may have changed this.
But at it's core, the device is an IR blaster accessible over some sort of network interface. It makes no sense that this would NEED some kind of cloud service for regular operation. I can, however, see two pieces that greatly benefit from a cloud service:
1) Initial setup. There are constantly new TVs, DVD players, cable boxes, etc with their different IR codes and quirks. The cloud service would be a good way to house this database so that it can be continuously updated without needing to push a firmware and/or app update. Each firmware/app update could include a base set of IR codes, or all codes as of the time the update was built, so that you can get base functionality without needing the service. Once you've picked a set of devices it can download the codes once and not require continuous access.
2) TV listings. This seems to be one of the value-added features with the Harmony and there's no realistic way to bake this into the app or firmware. This needs to be a cloud service.
Sure, maybe the TV listings will go away, I get that. I even get that they may want to discontinue the product and no longer support the app. But that's no reason to brick a bunch of devices - just say to people "This is no longer supported, the app may stop working with future OS updates, and the TV listings are going to go away."
Ideally they'd also say "Here's our internal API guide that the hardware guys gave to the software guys, enjoy". And in a perfect world, "Here's the github link to our firmware source code that we just released under a BSD license, enjoy."
This is exactly why I went with SimpleControl and an IR blaster. I saw the writing on the wall with the Harmony platform, and it really is a product that a small team can maintain. SimpleControl is far from the only app in this space, but their solution fit my use case best.
You don't buy a product which solely depends upon a free online hosted service and then bitch after 7 years of using it for free. Yes, it would be nice if Logitech released its server-side code so people could host the service themselves, but that would require a firmware update too as MyHarmony.com is almost certainly hard-coded in the device.
Personally, I learned this lesson in 2002 when the Dreamcast's online services were terminated after only a year. It's too bad other people didn't seem to notice the parallels in 2011. But the suggestions of "class action lawsuit" is just stupid. You can't sue a corporation into running a free service for you that it never guaranteed in the first place.
You can bet this will happen with all the early adopter smart home devices like Samsung Smart Things once Amazon's and Google's hubs become the standard.
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[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 304 ms ] threadh-v-smacker• 6h Here, have a treat:
сlаss асtiоn lаwsuit
Copy&Paste, half the letters are cyrillic, half are latin, so it won't be caught by a regular expression
They've abandoned the line of products and a class action lawsuit is in process.
Remember that Microsoft couldn't even keep up their DRM servers for their Zune. I would think out of any technology company, MS would be the last to drop support for infrastructure.
It's just safer to consider any "cloud required" device to be a rental. Now, its up to the user if that rental is a good deal or not. Sometimes it can be (chromecast). Other times, it isn't.
Maybe PWA's can become the default offline first configuration web interfaces of devices, and sync while the cloud is still available.
https://github.com/Logitech/slimserver
Because those are not things you buy to own. Those are things you rent and which only keep working as long the owner is willing to keep them running.
But in many other cases of smart devices where the core function relies on external services, they'll be entirely useless.
The manufacturer then sells the smart tv at a $25-50 premium over the dumb version and it's a decent profit for them.
FWIW - I was always skeptical of the onboard TV smart features, but the Samsung TV that I use a computer monitor actually is actually surprisingly decent.
https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Electronics-UN55MU6500-Curved...
As an aside, I absolutely love using it as a monitor hooked up to a MBP.
Aside from privacy, I like to think of it similar to musical keyboards. Back when synths were primitive, it made sense to buy a keyboard that had builtin speakers, synthesizer software/hardware - a smart keyboard if you will. Nowadays, the only thing you would want is a good set of keys. That means a midi controller with a baby grand/grand like keybed. [1] Best of all, it should be a lot cheaper than an all in one. And itll be just as good in 20 years as it is now - youll just run a different synth on your computer. All in ones dont make sense for many things. It may be a trend but its an overzealous and oversold one. Ill stick with my dumb midi instruments and my dumb projector. And hopefully theyll still be with me in 5 or more years.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatar
Anyhow, you are all wrong to disagree with me. There were just CVEs for radio chip exploits a couple of days ago! These have been coming out quite often lately. The layer at which these exploits can be done does not require the TV to be on any network. Not even ad-hoc. Just the fact that it has a listening radio chip that has old firmware is enough to make it extremely dangerous [digitally.] That TV can literally became a wifi enabled worm distribution center, infecting everything in your home. Not worth the risk IMO. I would stick with a dumb TV.
"targets didn't have to connect to the attacker's Wi-Fi network. Simply having Wi-Fi turned on was sufficient to being hacked."
[1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/information-tec...
Dumb TV's with sufficient quality are becoming harder and harder to find. I prefer to plug in my own smarts to TV's since they evolve quicker than the years I'll own a TV.
This type of behavior was the cause of new Apple Watches that couldn’t access the net over 3G (they were trapped on captive WiFi networks with no UI to disconnect). If this happened with one device, it could happen with others.
edit: split a run on sentence
It will forever try to login into that wifi network, even if you disabled the wifi in the tv ui.
Sure, all TVs will probably not do that, but before this one it wouldn't occur to me, that it could do that.
Lesson learned.
To go with the music world, the best parallel would be the increasingly annoying tendency for music software to move to "cloud" based offerings or other Internet authorization techniques. For instance Roland, with their "cloud plugins", apparently thinks all music venues have super spiffy wifi, as they require network authorization every time the plugin loads in the DAW. (https://www.rolandcloud.com/faq#FAQLink17) If Roland ever pulled this authorization scheme, poof, your plugins no longer work.
I have a 16 year old keyboard (Alesis Andromeda) and a synth that is a bit over a quarter of a century old (Roland D-50), and they both work fine more or less (a few issues here and there but nothing that stops me from using it). They don't need an Internet connection just to work. The companies can discontinue support (or even go bankrupt, in Alesis's case), and the synths still work.
Personally, I certainly do not have great confidence that the Roland Cloud authorization service will last a quarter century.
Hardware that requires the Internet to work is no different than software that requires the Internet to work, it honestly is a risky prospect for longevity. The Harmony Link from what I see was released in 2011. Maybe 7 years is a long time in this current disposable electronics world, but it doesn't feel like that to me.
I volunteered to set it up, and what do you know -- the "OS" was gated by a registration / sign in screen. So, no way to access core functionality (including external inputs, settings menu, etc.) without an internet connection. Even if there was some strange ritual that would let me get through (there wasn't), the average user is fucked.
The Chromecast could be discontinued tomorrow, but it only cost £30, so I'll just replace it with whatever. Relying on your expensive TV's probably terrible and badly supported software is madness, but it's what most people seem happy to do. It's getting harder and harder to buy TVs that are not smart, and I find it maddening.
I take the same approach with Speakers.
I think a dumb screen option will always be available because it's always going to be a value player in a world of Sony and Samsungs. The question is will the screen be a nice enough panel.
But I could have saved a lot of money by going with a conventional Smart TV, and it would have been easier to shop for it. Commercial displays aren't hanging on the wall at your local Best Buy, although they might be hanging on the wall at your local bar, restaurant, bank, etc.
As soon as you do you'll get nagged for software updates, you'll get told the privacy policy or the terms of service have changed (which you have to acknowledge) and apps for things like Youtube and Netflix tend to be inferior to those in boxes (eg Roku, AppleTV).
I buy my TV to be a dumb screen. Then I plug a Roku into it. If at some point I decide the Roku isn't working I throw it away and get something else. Worst case I'm out $120.
Non-smart TVs basically don't exist anymore (Sceptre is the only brand I can find). You can usually get a smart TV and keep it off the internet, but I've seen horror stories of some TVs not working at all until being "updated" after unboxing.
A similar pet peeve of mine is that the huge infotainment screens on modern cars cannot be turned off the majority of the time. Only in the VW Golf I rented did it actually have a way to shut the whole thing down.
If it's never connected to the network....
Of all the television sets I have owned since 1985, the native tuner included inside the device has been used maybe 2% of the time. The only advantage I have ever seen from buying a display screen as a television set is that it comes with speakers loud enough to hear from across a large room, and has as many as six different input ports. None of the screens I now own currently decode their own NTSC/ATSC/QAM signals.
My first "smart" TV was also my last, because LG made it obsolete within months of me buying it. Now it also functions only as a dumb screen, and is not allowed on my home network. Never again.
You don't need a smart television now. You don't even need a television. You need a monitor with HDMI inputs and speakers.
And if you want a DisplayPort input in lieu of one of the HDMI sockets, that seems to add at least $30 to an otherwise identical monitor, even though DisplayPort is royalty-free. There does seem to be an attempt to segment the market to charge more for displays connected to a computer than for displays connected to a home entertainment appliance.
At larger sizes, I think the assumption is that if you don't have a TV tuner, you're attaching it to a computer, and if you do, you're not. And that breaks down at smaller sizes, where resolution and pixel pitch become an issue for computing, but less so for consoles and DVD players.
I haven't done much digging on this, since 40" is plenty for the longest line-of-sight possible in my house.
I'm using an NEC E-series 55" commercial display as my TV and gaming monitor. It's not a great TV, but it is solid and it's way better than the one it replaced.
It is not possible to buy a high-end panel without it anymore.
AS long as you just use it as a dumb screen, physically disconnected from the network, it'll keep doing it's job for year and years.
My TV is a Smart TV. I've never use that part of it. In fact, it came with a second remote control for managing the Smart features and I've never even put batteries in it let alone given the panel network access.
It's been happily humming along in dumb mode for about 4 years I think. Just plug a cheap accessory of your choice in (Fire TV, Chromecast, Roku, self built HTPC etc) and enjoy!
Then there are the complications DRM adds, e.g. it's often not possible to get the best quality from Netflix on your PC in the browser, you only get that with the native Windows 10 app (and then not 4K unless you have some very specific GPU and drivers). The Apps on a smart TV or a FireTV/whatever don't have these restrictions.
With Netflix you at least get an app and the possibility to stream with highest quality (4K, HDR, multichannel sound), but the app is extremely basic and clearly only optimized for touch - it doesn't even offer basic keyboard shortcuts beyond start/stop.
You can get a somewhat near-HTPC using Chrome (at least shortcuts work there) and some customizing, but you're stuck with stereo (I'm not sure about 4K/HDR, but the latter is no-go enough for me to not have tried).
The same goes for Amazon Video, except that they don't even have an app outside Android/iOS, so you're stuck with stereo anyway. And so on. It would be downright embarassing, if it weren't so obvious this is intentional...
First, price. I think this is the biggest factor. You need a computer (for each TV). I don't think there are too many computers (if any) in the $35-$150 range that can handle smoothly playing HD video and pushing it to an external display. Assuming the machine isn't dedicated and you already own it, it breaks point 2 below.
Second, I haven't seen a good setup for controlling a computer connected to a TV. Granted, I stopped looking a few years ago. For me (and I'd assume most people), "good setup" means ability to turn system on and control it remotely, at a minimum. I'm sure one exists, but it would definitely require even more hardware (cuts into price) and more custom setup.
Third, some people might not have the technical know-how to set up something that meets the above two things. Sure, plenty of us technical people can do it, but it's not hard to understand that we are the minority.
tl;dr there's nothing "wrong" with using a computer and an HDMI cable, but there are plenty of compelling reasons these days to use one of the ultra cheap boxes. They are basically cheap purpose-specific computers, anyway. Ultimately, different people have different needs and priorities.
I have a mini-keyboard with touch pad, but it is still inferior to a roku remote or my harmony remote. My wife won't use it.
Does anyone know of a good smart thermostat with an api that can be used without a proprietary cloud?
https://partofthething.com/thoughts/enlighten-your-old-furna...
Company: http://www.radiothermostat.com/
API Doc: http://assistly-production.s3.amazonaws.com/91626/kb_article...
I'm not falling into this mate, unshortened link is:
http://assistly-production.s3.amazonaws.com/91626/kb_article...
https://linkunshorten.com/
The API would be provided by something like Mi Casa Verde running on some hardware in your house.
You can do everything the cloud services enable, locally, such as ‘scenes’ where you press a button and multiple things happen at once.
There are of course some trade-offs with Z-wave. It’s proprietary and expensive (compared to other things) to license. You’ll find a much more limited selection of Z-wave devices compared to BT or WiFi.
They make Z-wave controllers for raspberry pi and such. I’ve seen plenty of projects that used Mi Casa Verde to enable phone support and automation without going to someone else’s cloud.
For what it’s worth, I’ve got z-wave switches for nearly every switch in my house, a few electrical outlets, and a few corded adapters.
The adapters and outlets are great come holiday time. The outlets are paired with light switches in kids’ rooms so when we turn on the switch for their white noise machines some under bed night lights come on.
I used to use a Z-Wave thermostat and it worked just fine, I switched to an Ecobee 3 with room sensors to help better manage hot/cold spots.
I tie it all together with a Wink Hub, so it’s going to someone else’s cloud. I like their app on my phone better and it just works and has no monthly cost. They’ve got an API to integrate with, and have generally been nice to work with.
I specifically chose Z-wave though to give me options if they go under or I decide to cut ties and run my own stuff.
I've been working on moving my Vera controlled zwave network to home-assistant.io and an aeon labs zwave USB gateway, but haven't made much progress because zwave devices all rely on inputting rhythmic patterns of button presses locally to reprogram them.
What if service isn't discontinued, but merely suspended?
What if the company goes out of business? What if it's purchased, and becomes a different legal entity?
What if the service is discontinued as the result of a legal action?
What if the API depends on some proprietary technology?
"Just open source it!" is a knee-jerk reaction with little bearing on the practical realities.
"Why don't we just make bad things illegal?"
I agree but in some cases, you end up with such a restrictive product because it's part of a system package.
For example, I recently bought a new Trane air conditioner system and it comes with a fancy system controller.[1] It has wifi so Trane promotes the capability for you to control the temperature remotely from your smartphone. Well, the IoT rub is that it requires the cloud for that capability. When I first heard that explained to me by the installer, I had to have him repeat it twice because it didn't make any sense.
"You mean my iPhone that's on wifi doesn't communicate with this thermostat that's on the same wifi -- directly? You mean the thermostat app on my iPhone has to send the "increase temperature" command out of the house to the mothership cloud, and then round trip back to my thermostat?!? Yes, that's how it works." That's crazy -- If the internet is down, my iPhone can't control the thermostat that's 10 feet away!
Needless to say, I just forego the smartphone remote app and simply walk up to the thermostat and change the settings on the wall.
[1] https://www.trane.com/residential/en/products/thermostats-an...
smartphone at the office --> cloud --> thermostat home
The problem is that the engineers made the command flow with the cloud as the only method of communication instead of enabling a secondary communication that lets 2 wifi devices talk directly. Obviously, direct wifi communication is technically possible since people buy inkjet wifi printers and their wifi laptops print directly to them every day. People would be livid if they couldn't print their paper just because the internet down or the vendor's cloud server had an outage for "maintenance". The data sent from the computer to the printer does not roundtrip up to the cloud and back down to the printer.
[1] http://www.nexiahome.com/
Yes, you reminded me of a very good point about local wifi communications:
If 2 devices are on wifi, it's easier if both are configured as clients that talk to a 3rd server (such as cloud). When both act as clients, they don't need to know each other's ip address to communicate.
The other option of configuring one of the wifi devices as a server is more difficult especially for non-techies. Now, you have an extra complication of discovering the ip address of the printer/camera acting as a "server" to receive commands. This requires a weird dance where the server device has to "broadcast" itself and you have the client computers "find" it. For my Canon wifi printer, I had to press and hold down the power button a certain way so the computer could "discover" it. For my wifi camera, I had to go the DOS prompt and enter an obscure ARP command[1]. The difficulty is compounded when the "server" device has no builtin LCD display so you're basically "flying blind" as to what ip address it got from the wifi router's DHCP.
However, the HVAC wall controller has a large LCD display and touchpad so configuring it as a server on local wifi shouldn't be that difficult.
[1] https://www.axis.com/ro/en/support/faq/FAQ2551
Total bonkers. Silicon Valley only knows how to make web services apparently.
If your IoT device depends on the internet for functionality it really should be able to connect to cell networks, not just wifi. The only problem is the security risks with that, but it doesn't expand the attack surface that much more than having a cloud-connected device as it is.
Some proposals for future 'smart cities' is having CAT-6 LTE (which can be as fast as most home broadband connections) broadcasting everywhere and having all the devices connected to that, so you don't have to depend on your home wifi staying on or being in range.
I've been buying used/refurbished 880 remotes online for the last few years. I still think it's the best IR remote ever made.
Mine controls tv, Nvidia Shield, Logitech z5500 speakers, and a Blu-ray player. I believe the Shield is controlled by Bluetooth.
Because the Shield is a Google cast receiver, I can press the music button and it leaves the tv off but allows us to cast music (or just play something from the shield with sound only). Everything else is as straight forward as you'd expect, one litmus test is that visitors are able to figure it out easily. I used to have one of the remotes with an lcd screen and I'm not sure it was as straight forward, partly because the remote was so intimidating.
OTOH, maybe there's a few months to reverse engineer the link backend for those affected.
---
Dear [...],
This is an important update regarding your Harmony Link. On March 16, 2018, Logitech will discontinue service and support for Harmony Link. Your Harmony Link will no longer function after this date.
Although your Harmony Link is no longer under warranty, we are offering you a 35% discount on a new Harmony Hub. Harmony Hub offers app-based remote control features similar to Harmony Link, but with the added benefit of the ability to control many popular connected home devices. To receive your discounted Harmony Hub, go to logitech.com, add Harmony Hub to your cart, and use your personal one-time promotional code [...] during checkout.
Thank you for being a Logitech customer and we hope you will take advantage of this offer to upgrade to a new Harmony Hub.If you have any questions or concerns about Harmony Link, please email the Harmony customer care team.
Regards,
Logitech Harmony Team
---
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/7bg8gi/logitech...
That's a shitty way to do it. The better way would be to give them a two year notice, with the discount. By the end, most people would probably have upgraded.
Or switched to a different product. IoT products shouldn't depend on the cloud -- or they should explicitly indicate a certain number of years of support based on the purchase date (so the customer knows what they're signing up for)
Frankly that seems scummier than just EOL/EOS of the product.
My experience, historically, has been the exact opposite. While they do discontinue products I love, the few times I've had to call upon their tech support they've been as helpful as could be.
Be careful though: there are cheap knockoffs that flooded ebay a while ago. I ordered some and they are definitely not the same thing as the original. They work, but the feel isn't there, and that Logitech symbol is strangely bubbled up and protrudes above the surface of the mouse.
are you kidding me?
maybe it has kind of similar shape at best and looks quite alien design, looks uncomfortable and very "gamer", doesn't look like a normal mouse for office use
while MX500/MX518/G400 have the very same comfortable shape
The FTC are likely pretty powerless in this situation. Only negative PR and taking your business elsewhere may assist here but given the lack of competition in this space, good luck!
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/15/ftc_lets_nest_off_h...
I would also encourage you to look into the broad range of keyboards and pointing devices that exist out there. Mechanical keyboards are more than just Cherry MX switches. In terms of pointing devices, I use a CST Trackball for instance, and it's borderline industrial.
That means that with my receiver and TV, my Xfinity remote is able to control everything I need it to in my entertainment center.
I was getting kind of bummed about the sad state of Logitech Harmony remotes as my old one was failing on me - but it turns out that it no longer matters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Electronics_Control
Luckily you can disable the CEC stuff on the TV, which solved the problem.
...But then totally defeats the purpose.
Ongoing cloud costs for eol products will kill old products quicker.. That shouldn't be connected to, or rely on the cloud.
I own harmony hubs and will have to figure out how to leave.
EDIT: I'll look for products that are hybrid-cloud enabled - ones that offer locally stored and run backends (perhaps an offline-first progressive web apps as control panels that can sync to a cloud API if it exists).
That's just horrid, and a bad look (and bad consumer relations). I might he stating the obvious, but if a company is going to temporarily license a technology and then develop a product for consumer markets they would do well to continually renew their certs. To do otherwise and act how they did seeds doubt: are we simply buying into a temporarily functioning product that can cease functioning at any time at the whim of the manufacturer? If so why are we buying from them at all if the product we get isn't truly ours?
This happens a lot. I own several software/hardware products that no longer function because the ecosystem moved on and the company stopped updating the software (either for business reasons or because they simply went out of business)..
The hardware itself is totally fine, I just can't use it anymore because the closed-sourced software is not available or not compatible with my operating system(s).
And it is a bad look for sure. I'm definitely not buying any products from any of those companies anymore.. The ones that still exist at least.
And I have a perfectly functional Epson printer/scanner whose only drivers no longer work on Windows 10.
I could go on and on. That’s just what came to mind with 5 seconds thinking about it.
I think it was Microsoft who decided to stop supporting Skype for TV, not Samsung [1]. Did you find a replacement? Perhaps a third-party device that could be connected to TV? I am in the marker for a living room Skype system and I can't find anything suitable.
[1] https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/8/11178976/microsoft-skype-f...
Severe security vulnerability that they'd rather keep under wraps than admit to and patch? Hard to imagine what else would be worth the ill will from consumers, I'd characterize Harmony is one of Logitech's flagship consumer product lines. Is this a Galaxy Gear type situation, but with something that would be a poison pill for IoT and is maybe even effectively unfixable/compromised at the hardware level? March 2018 seems like a long time to wait in that case, though.
Edit: According to a user on Reddit, Logitech's had the Link products on "fire sale" a number of times over the last 6 months, with a 3 month warranty. So they've run the inventory out, with warranty terms that exclude the buyers from the replacement program. It seems like the most plausible reason is greed.
The fire-sale stuff is pure garbage though.. They had to know they were selling customers soon-to-be-dead products.
They sold gift certificates at a sale: You would buy $50 certificate, and then get $25 to use next month. They got a load of people to buy them, cause it's a pretty good deal.
Then within 2 weeks, they closed up shop. The local county prosecutor said that "knowingly selling gift certificates they did not plan on intending to honor was fraud-like, and would be investigated." And, it was more than investigated. They hauled their asses in court, and came to a settlement that all funds were to be returned. Evidently, there was a fraud charge mentioned for each certificate... Make them come to their senses.
Too bad we can't do similar for bigger actors that violate the public trust, or engage in fraudulent behaviors. Cause I see a pretty straight-forward "Knowingly selling hardware that we will remotely kill just outside of the <cough> warranty period" sure seems to smell like fraud.
I received a similar email from Scanadu Scout this year (an Indiegogo product that allowed you to scan your body for heart rate, bp and a few other metrics).
However, in their corporate greed they decided that the Bluetooth device you bought should connect to your phone only as a router to their server. If they had stored their algorithms in the app there's no problem if they decide to shutdown analytics servers one day...
They branded it as 'end of beta test' or something like that. I can post the full email if someone wants. Too bad, very useful little device that could have worked for years to come.
When a piece of software we used (local install) was bought out by a big company, they refused to renew our license and gave us a hard date after which we could no longer have it operational.
Our response was exactly this, "Sorry Customer, as of Date, Service will no longer be available." Customers were pissed, they just could not understand that just because the software could still run, we didn't have the rights to run it anymore.
[1] https://home-assistant.io/, very recently discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15521743
[2] https://partofthething.com/thoughts/adding-a-ir-send-and-rec...
Getting home assistant setup is my xmas project. Kind of want to get rid of my Nest if I can.
If you have a temperature sensor and a relay getting rid of Nest can be pretty easy and cheap with Home Assistant (for the DIY-inclined) as well [1].
[1] https://partofthething.com/thoughts/enlighten-your-old-furna...
It's more about hardware. Good luck getting your fire insurance cover damages when your Alibaba sourced board that you operate on the mains (via Alibaba source AC/DC converter) fries your living room.
The issues with DIY here are not hard issues in themselves (grounding, heat protection/ventilation), but they require a custom casing solution which is kind of hard if you don't want to end up with weird looking industrial cases on your wall and ceiling.
Home assistant also integrates well with openzwave so you can use most zwave devices including a variety of switches.
[0] https://github.com/sui77/rc-switch
A respectable 433MHz controlled plug, an arduino, 433MHz TX and a humidity sensor.
Interface configuration still requires writing some YAML (unless the editor got better since I last looked at it), but installation and configuration is now extremely simple.
You’re not going to convince your average homeowner to replace $100 of mechanical light switches that last forever with $3000 of IoT switches that have to be replaced every 10 years or so. You’re really not going to convince them to drop another $2000 on configuration.
By far the biggest use case is in home theaters, which is already a well-served market. Pro-level home theater installers have been putting in these systems for 20 years; they’ve just become cheaper. The pros definitely use this stuff too; open source is pure margin on an install versus a commercial solution.
I'm still looking for a solution that's inexpensive and gets out of my way (i.e., is aware of what's going on) without phoning home to some server ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And even with all that, I'm just not sure that a fully-automated home provides enough benefit to be worth the headache for the majority of folks. I'm in the top 1% of income, I set up my own system and it's nice; but even I don't think it's worth what I paid for it.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14069975
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14077614
I have some hue bulbs right now, but if I ever need more I'd definitely consider a Tradfri hub too to away from the Hue's internet connected stuff.
Looks like I'll be buying parts and building my own equipment soon.
I worked in the CEDIA industry for a number of years, and was in direct competition with Logitech-- at one point we were even going to buy their remote division. My company was allergic to sustaining engineering. We would toss a buggy 1.0 iOS / Android app onto their respective stores and then forget about them. It felt dirty. I hated it.
When Apple's 64-bit transition happened, I dutifully warned my managers, was given no resources to get out ahead of the problem, and a year later all of our apps were kicked out of the App Store. It was hilarious, but not for our customers. :-/
Regarding humanity, the most important thing about any issue is what you're not considering. As humans we accumulate experience in proportion to our exposure to it. We are most vulnerable when life does not afford us an opportunity to accumulate that experience.
Things people get ripped of on? Home purchases, cars, funerals, weddings, etc. you won't have an opportunity to accumulate more than a few of these experiences in your lifetime. You cant extrapolate a larger pattern from your interactions.
As someone who has designed dozens of control surfaces-- let me you-- the problem is this: two dollar remote controls-- and believe me, tahts what we sold them to our OEMs for-- are "heads up" interfaces. Ipads, iphones, etc are "heads down" interfaces.
A single function, 2$ remote with no display at all is a tactile interface. You can in the complete dark control your TV more or less.
Our flagship, $1200 remote, wasn't as functional. People bought it anyways. I honestly don't know why.
We fuck up the things we only do once.
Scammers will gravitate to those events as they don't get punished by bad behavior. Ahhh, and this is why people use the big business, been around awhile car dealerships, funeral homes, etc. They get a solid dependable level of shafting instead of total shafting.
I have yet to find a wireless bluetooth headset where I can reliably (more than 100 button pressed) operate the device when it is on my head.
How do we fix capacitive touch buttons? Vibrator motor? Injection molded textures? Moar beeping?
Now this just sounds like a project. sigh.
Irregardless of small print, if it's not clear from the outset there is some part of 'lease' (of certificates) involved it seems pretty straightforward to annul your agreement of purchase once the product stops working within the period you could normally have expected it to function correctly. (Even if it is clear from the outset, the day my Philips Netflix-integrated TV With Netflix Button (R) stops showing Netflix, I'm going for it.)
The nice thing about annulment is 100% money back. The less nice thing about anulment is that it is the store that has to pay you back, not the companing producing the product. They need to sort out liability among themselves. It's producers thinking this is acceptable behaviour that starts it. The retailer is only the middle man.
Also: short paragraph: bad news, device being killed. Longer paragraph: sales pitch...
I'll probably keep buying Logitech peripherals because they are very good quality, but the moment they make a cloud-dependent mouse, I'm out.
But at it's core, the device is an IR blaster accessible over some sort of network interface. It makes no sense that this would NEED some kind of cloud service for regular operation. I can, however, see two pieces that greatly benefit from a cloud service:
1) Initial setup. There are constantly new TVs, DVD players, cable boxes, etc with their different IR codes and quirks. The cloud service would be a good way to house this database so that it can be continuously updated without needing to push a firmware and/or app update. Each firmware/app update could include a base set of IR codes, or all codes as of the time the update was built, so that you can get base functionality without needing the service. Once you've picked a set of devices it can download the codes once and not require continuous access.
2) TV listings. This seems to be one of the value-added features with the Harmony and there's no realistic way to bake this into the app or firmware. This needs to be a cloud service.
Sure, maybe the TV listings will go away, I get that. I even get that they may want to discontinue the product and no longer support the app. But that's no reason to brick a bunch of devices - just say to people "This is no longer supported, the app may stop working with future OS updates, and the TV listings are going to go away."
Ideally they'd also say "Here's our internal API guide that the hardware guys gave to the software guys, enjoy". And in a perfect world, "Here's the github link to our firmware source code that we just released under a BSD license, enjoy."
You don't buy a product which solely depends upon a free online hosted service and then bitch after 7 years of using it for free. Yes, it would be nice if Logitech released its server-side code so people could host the service themselves, but that would require a firmware update too as MyHarmony.com is almost certainly hard-coded in the device.
Personally, I learned this lesson in 2002 when the Dreamcast's online services were terminated after only a year. It's too bad other people didn't seem to notice the parallels in 2011. But the suggestions of "class action lawsuit" is just stupid. You can't sue a corporation into running a free service for you that it never guaranteed in the first place.