Probably not. This is exactly how Apple Pay works - every physical card you add to apple pay is added to your phone/watch/laptop with a different number. If you delete card from your phone and add it again, its has yet another number.
All those unique numbers are handled by your bank and linked to single card account.
Probably a temporary CC number generator for internet purchases.
You would not be able to "choose" a vanity number of your own choosing besides being really insecure but also because CC numbers have to fit an algorithmic pattern to be valid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhn_algorithm
Wasn't expecting a vanity number but creating a different number for each service. Something like what capital one has [1]. There would be a number for Netflix and a different number for fios.
In the stream they seem to suggest that it’s “private” in the sense of
1. Apple doesn’t get any information (it’s all done on-device)
2. The data GS gets (and probably needs to keep, for auditing/paper trail) they “will never sell.” This probably means they have some kind of special agreement?
As it goes thru mastercard's network, they will get who your card bought from, the [hidden] card number at the time, and the name on the card. Unless Apple has gotten mastercard to not generate any of that data, there's a standard CC hidden in there. There's also a name attached to it. Merchants get bits of this data for fraud prevention. They get it from Mastercard.
> get a digital card that they can use anywhere Apple Pay
Apply Pay users: how broad is Apply Pay adoption? Is this a viable replacement for a VISA, Mastercard or AMEX?
I'm intrigued by the privacy angle to this, seeing as VISA and Mastercard apparently share and/or sell a lot of transaction data with/to third parties.
Edit: The article has been updated: As rumored, Apple is partnering with Goldman Sachs for Apple Card, with Mastercard handling payment processing. The mastercard network, plus the benefits Apples is offering (eg 2pct cashback), could make this really attractive.
I'm not going to get an Apple credit card heh. But where did you see this info? They said the number & ccv would be available via the apple wallet app for use online (although you only get 1% back).
This is why it's an 80% solution. Most of my online purchases are at specific places (Amazon, other sites using Paypal, directly through airlines, etc).
However, if Apple can isolate most Apple purchases to using their own card, things get interesting. 3% off Apple purchases is pretty decent. Kind of like Amazon wants all it's data for purchases through it's own card.
Overall I try and use Apple Pay where I can and find about 2/3 of the time I want to use it I can. My biggest struggles have essentially been at smaller stores that still just have basic square swipers and obviously the occasional cash only locations.
In Canada I pay for pretty much everything with Apple Pay. It is accepted wherever there is tap available. There is only one coffee shop out of 100+ stores in my town that I can think of that doesn't support Apple Pay
In Chicago, a lot of chain stores allow for Apple Pay, such as Aldis and Dunkin Donuts. But it’s hit or miss for independent shops. Some nice coffee shops and restaurants have tablets, but these often aren’t equipped to take Apple Pay.
> It should work anywhere that touchless mastercard is accepted, though I do think that vendors can turn off apple pay specifically to avoid the fee.
I don't think merchants have to pay anything extra to accept Apple Pay. It's the banks that have to pay a "marketing fee" to Apple to let their cards work with Apple Pay.
With the new Apple Card, somewhere in the presentation Apple had "Goldman Sachs will never sell your data to third parties" but what about the MasterCard backend? Surely, they'll see exact transactions and store information?
They explained this in the keynote. They are generating a per-transaction card number, so there is no reasonable way for Mastercard to track what a certain person is buying.
Thanks for the insight. So, now the question is whether GoldmanSachs can be trusted. Honestly, Apple is the only large company in existence that I can fully trust with my privacy. Given that this whole thing has been orchestrated by Apple, it wouldn't be too surprising for Apple to put preventative measures around GoldmanSachs based on their sleezy history.
What they described was card tokenization via the existing EMV standard for contactless payments.
* Tokenization is using a unique per-device credit card. These are generated by the payment network, so Mastercard knows who is making the payment.
* EMV includes per-transaction tokens.
At no point did Apple say anything the prevents MasterCard from tracking your purchases. MasterCard shares this data with the credit networks, and the credit networks sell this data to third parties.
yes, goldman sachs and mastercard will most certainly data mine the information to correlate transactions to each other and to certain people. it won't be perfect, but it's not truly anonymous either.
Re: Privacy: Cash is the most privacy friendly payment method. Followed by virtual credit cards, which aren't really that private but an improvement over the usual.
Here with Apple Card, even if Apple might not choose to centralise your payment data, the underlying network (MasterCard, in this case) most certainly can know where you spent it, and vendors at point of sale can keep track of it too.
AML laws are a thing. Someone in the chain definitely knows who it was. The payment network for sure, as well as any associated banks, and Apple, clearly. The merchant can see whatever their payment processor chooses to share with them.
I agree with this. Maybe it's because I still have trauma from broken power buttons (back in the iPhone 4 era), but I'd like to not have to press buttons as much as possible.
cash is the most convenient secure and private form of payment. applepay if i run out of cash or its a larger transaction. chip (in the US) is hobbled by stupid UX (insert card, tap random buttons, sign, etc.), so swipe is usually quicker and more reliable. i never use debit.
I don't use it, but I just read (can't remember where) that adoption in America is about 70% of stores and 99% in Australia. This corresponds to another comment's assessment that it was available in about 2/3 of stores.
NFC payments are virtually on par with chip card payments in Switzerland, and it seems better every day in the US. I wouldn't say it's a replacement, particularly if you travel to one of many other countries, but Samsung Pay is very universal in my daily life.
I like the value proposition; simple and more transparent credit management with increased privacy. This now has to complete with cards that have consumer purchase protection, customer service, and airline benefits.
I’ve found in the past Germans aren’t always keen on credit cards - they often push back when you try to use them in shops and restaurants and things like ticket machines at railways only seem to take regional debit cards. Trying to use an American Express gets a very bad reaction. Is that changing?
It’s probably changing, I think, but American Express is also one of the worst credit cards you could try to use in Germany. Mastercard and Visa are much more widely accepted.
If you can even find a merchant that accepts credit cards! While in Berlin, the only place I came across that accepted credit cards was my hotel and a Starbucks. Every lunch and dinner place I went to were cash-only.
Wait so I don't understand. You're saying almost nobody accepts credit cards, and someone else is saying almost everywhere accepts them. My experience is definitely that they don't accept them, outside of international places like airports and hotels.
In the UK everywhere has a payment terminal and that terminal accepts absolutely anything - credit, debit, Apple, AmEx, prepaid, cash-card, whatever. I don't know why Germany picks and chooses.
German here; MasterCard and Visa are accepted almost everywhere even the smallest shop usually offers contactless payments (tap).
Amex on the other hand is a rarity and you should expect that it doesn’t work.
I not sure how different Germany and Denmark is in this regard, but both the MasterCard and VISA branded cards in Denmark is nearly always debit cards, not credit cards.
For reading the comments it seems like people are exited about the Apple Card solving a set of problem I simply don't see most people having here in Denmark.
They could have a single bank in any EU country. For instance, Revolut used to provide cards issued by a British bank to all customers across the EU. It's the beauty of the Single Market.
Not sure what to think of this. Somehow I would prefer if Apple kept building technology platforms that then enable other parties to develop solutions but instead they seem to be moving into a totally integrated platform. The business success is there but from a technology point of view I find Apple has been pretty unexciting over the last years. They have turned into a well run big tech company like Microsoft under Ballmer. Good business but not very exciting.
I think all their announcements are going to be good for developers / their ecosystem. So it's probably positive they are getting some love, and hopefully some increased revenue too
I think his main talent was to recognize innovation and then having a good instinct for the right timing to get to market. Some people are too early, some too late, but Jobs often seemed to find the right time and also had the courage to pursue something risky.
Cook probably is more like a typical manager who is good at optimizing things. Nothing wrong about that but I wouldn't expect big leaps from Apple under him.
> instead they seem to be moving into a totally integrated platform
Apple has been traveling this path for what, decades now? It can't possibly be a surprise. I suppose we could all wish it to be different, but this is in line with what they've been doing for a long time now.
Wait. What? I use credit cards for the consumer protections they provide. A store claims to have some type of return policy -- if I buy with credit, and they don't follow that policy -- I get my money back no matter what. With cash, that's not guaranteed.
That is exactly what the parent was saying. They would not consider a financial product that bypasses the major payment processors (Visa/MC) unless it has similar customer protections built in.
And the post at the head of this thread contemplates the utility of Visa/MC in general. Not really a concern leveled at Apple's thing in specific, and I wouldn't want my concern about consumer protections to be construed as such.
I see. I guess it seems fundamental to me that a credit card would have these properties -- even though it's not necessary to actually fulfill the role of a credit card -- which is just to provide credit.
The two seem intertwined, even though they aren't. I just assumed Apple -- if they became a payment processor -- would still provide those protections.
If they didn't, which I see is maybe what the OP was alluding to, why would anyone use the card?
It's probably a different discussion, but I think the actual problem is that in the US consumer protection seems to be an optional feature of certain payment methods, like credit cards, rather than universal legislation applying to all consumers and sellers. I think consumers should benefit from a reasonable set of protections and rules regardless of which payment method they use to complete a transaction.
I don't live in a tech hub city but in all my shopping I have never seen anyone use one of the Apple/Samsung payment methods where I live. Even when I spent months in Silicon Valley I can count the number of times I saw it used on one hand.
Here in the Southeast of the US, the adoption of Apple Pay (and I presume Samsung Pay) has definitely been increasing.
Square/Clover/all the POS's used by coffeeshops and other small businesses have been taking Apple Pay for a few years now. But recently CVS started taking it, and CVS is everywhere (~6,200 stores in the US). Whole Foods is on Apple Pay. I understand Target will be following soon.
It's still not 100% penetration, but it definitely feels like the adoption expands every time a shop upgrades its POS.
It is not actually NFC, but if you use Target's App you can put your "Red Card" (target's in-house credit card) into your App and have a single scan for both their coupons system (Cartwheel) and payment at once.
You don’t just need technology penetration. You also neeed consistently working devices that inspire confidence to customers that they’ll work.
How often have you done this dance:
1. Notice the POS reader has an icon on it that vaguely indicates it supports some kind of NFC payment.
2. Pull out your phone and wave it around the reader.
3. No response from reader. Do I need to press something on my phone?
4. Still no response. The cashier and other customers in line are looking at you like you are wasting everyone’s time with your high tech crap.
5. Sheepishly put your phone in your pocket, pull out an actual card, and mutter something about “I guess it’s not working today...” to the cashier.
Have this awkward experience enough times and you’ll just abandon NFC payments entirely. Stores should not be allowed to indicate that their systems support NFC if their reader doesn’t work.
Anecdotally, this has never happened to me. I briefly mention I'm paying with Apple Pay almost always and if it's not available/doesn't work, they will let you know.
The retailer also has to press a button to enable the NFC payment type half the time too, it's not available at all stages of the transaction like in other countries.
So I live 1.75 hours from a major city, not in a tech hub of any sorts, pretty typical sleepy Northeast town and use my Apple pay at the local Cumberland Farms, Stop & Shop and about a half dozen less regular shops. Once you start looking for it, you'd be surprised at how many places offer. I've never "seen" anyone else using it, but I'm in the position to "see" only a few minutes each week as I'm waiting in line.
> Once you start looking for it, you'd be surprised at how many places offer. I've never "seen" anyone else using it, but I'm in the position to "see" only a few minutes each week as I'm waiting in line.
Isn't this because Apple Pay is essentially built on top of the Visa/Mastercard/Amex contactless solutions?
Yes, but only "newer" ones. So larger chains you see them, but mom and pops will take a bit longer. Depends on when they got their merchant account/hardware. My point was that it's more common than you think, and it's used outside of tech circles.
Contactless MasterCard was deployed sporadically in the US 15 years ago. Few stores had the readers and few banks issued the cards so it died due to lack of demand. It is questionable that Apple will carry enough influence to better that track record.
Barcelona, Spain - all merchants already got used to Apple/Samsung mobile devices payments. Phones, bracelets, watches. I know just few stores where Apple Pay doesn't work.
We are pretty much at 100% here in the UK. I was in a little village deep in a national park over the weekend (North Wales) and used Apple Pay most of the time.
I would say contactless card payments in general are very popular in the UK, but seeing people use Apple Pay (much less Android Pay) is something of a novelty.
Apple Pay (and Google Pay) penetration in the U.K. is nearly universal.
We have had very good support for contactless payments for a long time, something that Apple/Google Pay will both fall back to if necessary. No one blocks them. Charges are capped in the EU, and low, so retailers are onboard. Add to that the fact that cash usage is declining fast and some places are going card only (London public transport being most notable), it’s everywhere.
Samsung Pay works at most (all?) readers that let you swipe your card. The only tricky ones are gas pumps since they don't read the mag stripe until they detect that a card is physically inserted. With a bit of finesse you can fake this by putting your drivers license or a library card in the gas pump while holding your phone up to the reader.
You might not be aware that the terminal doesn't have to be branded as Samsung/Apple to be usable. Keep an eye out for the "contactless payment" logo[0]; that's generally the indicator you need.
In the UK basically every shop that allows paying with card allows contactless payment and also apple and Android pay. I can't remember the last time I used my actual physical card. It's really commonplace.
I've never owned a credit card but I've used my debit card directly twice since Christmas because GPay is available everywhere. It's only the ceiling on contactless transactions (£30) that requires me to use it
The cool thing about the latest iteration of PoS terminals is that they enable contactless transactions over £30 if paying by Apple Pay (and possibly GPay too, unsure). I've paid >£30 Tesco shopping sprees using Apple Pay without any issue.
Yes, I don't care for running any of these blobs or other DRM garbage on my phone. And what's the selling point ? I don't see the difference between pulling out my card v/s pulling out my phone. Decent security (chip & pin for eg. or other 2nd factor) is perfectly possible with cards. US is just backwards in matters like these. We don't need to beat the security strawman.
Samsung Pay, Android Pay and Apple Pay all are primarily just a different way to use a credit card. They're competing against the physical way cards are processed, not the cards.
In a lot of places all around the world credit cards always played a minor role. Usually the lack of credit cards in Germany is attributed to being a cash-only country, but I guess it has more to do with wire transfers and direct debit being basically for free. For shopping physically there's also additionally a national direct debit system (called girocard), organized directly by the banks with much lower fees than credit cards.
The underlying network that's processing those payments still largely involves Visa, Mastercard, Discover, and Amex. For Apple Pay to entirely replace them, they'd need to convince millions of merchants to get credit card terminals that use them.
Last fall I found myself in a remote part of the country and realized I'd forgotten the check card I planned to use while there.
Fortunately, most retail on the Navajo Nation takes Apple Pay, so I just drove over there every couple of days for supplies and paid with my Apple Watch.
Saved my bacon. But I'd still rather have plastic as a backup considering battery issues in places with extreme weather.
Because at the end of the day, credit cards are loans and more than just transactions. Way more bank related integration work than just charging money.
Costco's card is 4% on gas and 3% on restaurants and travel.
Depending on your spending habits, you are probably better off having 1 general purpose card, and then a card or two from the businesses you spend the most money at (target, amazon, walmart, costco etc) or one that fits your spending profile.
The Apple Card might make a good general spending card, but you should still have one that gets you 4-5% somewhere.
Chase Freedom gives you 5% on rotating categories. That combined with the Uber or Amazon card, you're getting pretty high percentages. Apple's 2% is just not competitive, and they don't even give you a signup bonus. It's basically a privacy card.
I don’t know about the OP’s reasoning, but for me, it’s much easier to track spending with only a debit card than with a credit card that I periodically pay off from my checking account. A single stream of transactions is much easier to budget than one that cascades into the other.
That makes sense. Some banks offer the ability to track all accounts in one place, but my bank’s implementation is not that good and I haven’t found a good app I can trust to do it.
There was a big emphasis on privacy. Apple does all the categorization and geolocation on device. There was a slide dedicated to the point that Goldman Sachs will never share the data with advertisers.
But no word on MasterCard. Will they share the data, is that their business?
The thing is, even if MasterCard excluded Apple Card from the data they sell, very few merchants send transactions directly to MasterCard. There's usually a merchant acquirer involved, and that acquirer might proxy transactions through Visa rather than integrating with the other networks directly. In that case the merchant, the acquirer, Visa, MasterCard and Goldman Sachs would all see the transaction data.
Plus there are normally other companies involved when a transaction is settled later, like First Data.
It goes
Customer -> Merchant -> payment processor (eg PayPal) -> acquirer (eg First Data in the US) -> Visa or MC -> bank the CC comes from (issuing bank)
I am impressed, however this any some of the other products announced are just a pinata for anti trust advocates.
however this product to me is the premier product of the event. finally someone is taking credit card use to the next level in both usability, features, and security. Most important is the level of privacy they are offering.
Now if the three percent discount holds true it will be the defacto means of purchasing from apple.com, similar to how for prime users you pretty much have to use the amazon/chase card for five percent on all purchases.
How does something like this work in Europe with no signature on the card? When I tried to use a US card without a PIN that I hadn't yet signed, a German checker made a fuss about the missing signature. This isn't a problem in the US where no one bothers checking the signature.
What about a brewery I went to this weekend where neither swipe or chip was available for their POS and the card number was manually entered?
As they said, it only works where Apple Pay works already. And already Apple Pay works almost everywhere there is contactless terminal.
Some people say you will be able to see the card number in your Wallet app, but somehow I doubt it. There is already a unique card number for every physical card you added to your walled, but you cannot see it. You can verify it on proof of purchase where last 4 digits are shown - they will differ from your physical card.
As for signed/unsigned, it gets vague these days. In the past you were required by your bank agreement to sign your card. If you tried to pay with spouse card the merchant was allowed to call police and destroy the card right away.
Today probably are still required to do all that with physical card, but with contactless payments its usually ignored all the time.
For Apple Pay you must agree to different set of rules, those don't require you to physically sign anything as its fully digital. Same thing here.
I remember reading an article a few years ago that said Apple has so much money overseas, the most logical thing they can do is to start a bank. Can't find it atm (I'm on mobile). But maybe that has changed after the GOP's tax law changes.
Partnering with a bank to learn the ins and outs could be the first step towards starting a bank. Apple in/famously partnered with Motorola on the ROKR to get a feel of the industry.
I'm sure it does. They need to verify that you're qualified for credit.
I don't believe Apple itself would be the party pulling your credit history though. They've partnered with Goldman Sachs as the issuing bank, so it would probably be Goldman that runs your credit.
tbf, they milked that phone gravy train for a good decade. the only new "features" left to talk about these days are the size and location of a "notch".
Very true, they did a good job. Time to go the way of ol' yeller now? I can only imagine the kind of derivatives GS is looking to write on this in the future…
The 2% cashback is especially interesting (in the US, for purchases done with ApplePay). I guess they can get away with a different risk model when they control more of the payment process & security.
all of those have pretty big caveats. Citi seems the closest to straight 2% assuming you pay off your balance all the time, I didn't notice any limits on how you get your 2%. But they do have late payment fees.
PenFed you have to be active duty military to qualify for 2%... Fidelity you have to put your 2% (not going to call it "cash") into a Fidelity product, no balance credits.
I use Citi and there are no limits. I pay my balance in full every month and it's actually better IMO because it incentives payments. PenFed you don't have to be military, you can be a member as well and it's a pretty good bank anyways. Fidelity you can use their checking account, so it's as good as cash.
Apple requires you to use Apply Pay to earn 2%, so it comes with it's own caveats.
Citi has late fees (but yeah, it looks pretty good)
Looks like non-active duty PenFed members get 1.5%
Fidelity Checking account sounds alright, but why not just balance credit?
Until apple pay is much more widely accepted that's a caveat for them. Probably stick around with Capital One 1.5% for now.
That's fair, but with caveats you can also get more than 2% back on every purchase and 4-5% on many purchases. For many people, that's easily worth it and I wouldn't settle for a 2% back card.
- Amazon Prime Visa (5% Amazon, 2% Dining, Grocery, Pharmacy, 1% everything else)
These are just the cards I use right now. There are no annual fees, although some require membership like Costco and Amazon. Pay your balance in full every month and it's a much better option than debit. There's a bunch of different ways to maximize rewards. See /r/churning [1] for more info.
That American Express one looks nice, though reading about the points feels like a shell game. I think I could use it simply enough just for gas and groceries. The site was really trying to push me towards one of the $95/yr upgrades though.
If you spend roughly $3000 annually on groceries and gas the preferred ($95/yr) card is good. If you're interested in grocery and gas rewards then you may like the Pen Fed Platinum Rewards Visa Signature more.
- Amazon Prime Visa (5% Amazon, 2% Dining, Grocery, Pharmacy, 1% everything else)
These are just the cards I use right now. There are no annual fees, although some require membership like Costco and Amazon. Pay your balance in full every month and it's a much better option than debit. There's a bunch of different ways to maximize rewards. See /r/churning [1] for more info.
Most interesting claim is that there are no late fees. If you don't pay it on time, I presume they're going to stop letting you continue making charges to the card until you do? But that it never gets you locked into the debt cycle of so many other cards?
If true, this is the true real innovation.
Or is there interest, but just no fee for not making your payment on time?
Once debit cards came out charge cards lost a lot of their appeal. Charge cards also tend to have a higher yearly fee (an Amex Platinum is $550 a year) because they aren't making money off of interest (although it should be noted they are making money off of the merchants who accept them).
Not allowing you to carry a balance makes the card less flexible, since it takes away the ability to use the card to finance items you can't afford to pay in full right now.
At least in the US, charge cards also (historically) charged higher fees to retailers, so a lot of stores wouldn't accept them.
So much this. I've never carried a balance on a card that charges interest. but I would be more open to the idea if they charged interest more inline with market loan rates. 15-35% is insane.
35% seems pretty high, but I think you'd find that, far from being insane, the bottom portion of that range is right in line with what's typical for unsecured debt.
You can't really compare it to mortgages or car loans, because those are both secured by a collateral. You can't really compare it to student loans because it's impossible to get out from under a student loan. Either way, the debt is less risky for the lender, so they're willing to offer it for a lower rate.
Never for truly big ticket items, but sometimes the $5 or whatever in interest to carry a small balance for a month isn't worth the extra effort it would take to free up the cash I'd need to pay it off in full without dipping below the minimum balance I like to keep in my checking account, and it's also not worth $5 to me to wait another month before replacing that busted transmission.
It depends on the matter of scale. Some folks either don't understand how things work, or are just bad at math. That's where the problems start for people.
American Express offers both credit cards and charge cards. The "black card" might be the most well known of all cards and its only real limit is AMEX's judgement of your ability to repay the charges.
The same applies to the Platinum Card- it defaults to being a charge card but they offer people a built in credit card as well. The interest rate on it is insane though, so even though I have it as an option I've literally never used it as a credit card.
Charge cards are not what's being described here. If you have an Amex "charge card" (not one of their credit cards) you do have to pay late fees if you miss a payment.
Charge cards generally force you to pay them off each month (again, an Amex charge card expects you to clear out the balance for each cycle). This is a credit card, which means you can carry a balance.
So a doubling time of about 5 to 3 years, for those who don't understand compound interest (which is most humans, hence credit cards being insanely profitable).
AT least in the video, they do charge you late fee. If you pay balance in full, there's no fee. But if you don't, then the minimum interest they charge is around $20.
I guess this means there's no minimum monthly payment?
E.g. generally a credit card will have a minimum of, say, $29/mo., if you have a balance of maybe $500... if you have a balance of $10K the minimum might go up to $129 or something. And if you don't pay the minimum, you're hit with the late fee.
I never really understood the purpose of minimum monthly payment, except maybe it's useful in proving you're not a complete deadbeat, and also probably not dead? Getting rid of it does seem like a consumer-friendly innovation maybe?
In the US at least, banks are strongly encouraged (by law) to have a minimum fee that prevents the borrower from increasing the principal owed through cumulative interest (negative amortization). If the minimum payment might do this, the bank is required to disclose it to the borrower.
Basically it means that borrowers should at least be paying off the interest incurred on the principal owed at the beginning of the billing period.
Does Apple Pay and Google Pay work anywhere I see the tap symbol (looks like a rotated wifi symbol)? Or they must also display the Apple or Google Pay symbol? I've seen places that just have the tap symbol and wondered if I could've used my phone.
Yes Apple pay and Google pay do work with all contactless payment terminals, however your card may not. If the business does not accept Amex for example, using Apple Pay or Google Pay will not work unless you pick a different card.
Generally, yes, at least in the US. There are exceptions; some chains have decided not to support Apple Pay, for example. But the contactless symbol generally means any kind of contactless payment system is accepted, including Apple Pay.
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 361 ms ] thread- 2% on all Apple Pay purchases
- 3% on Apple purchases.
- Zero fees
- Virtual card numbers
- Privacy
can you create your own?
All those unique numbers are handled by your bank and linked to single card account.
You would not be able to "choose" a vanity number of your own choosing besides being really insecure but also because CC numbers have to fit an algorithmic pattern to be valid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhn_algorithm
[1]https://www.capitalone.com/applications/eno/virtualnumbers/
Apple doesn’t know what you purchased, Goldman Sachs is not allowed to sell the data.
1. Apple doesn’t get any information (it’s all done on-device) 2. The data GS gets (and probably needs to keep, for auditing/paper trail) they “will never sell.” This probably means they have some kind of special agreement?
Not sure what MasterCard would get though.
Apply Pay users: how broad is Apply Pay adoption? Is this a viable replacement for a VISA, Mastercard or AMEX?
I'm intrigued by the privacy angle to this, seeing as VISA and Mastercard apparently share and/or sell a lot of transaction data with/to third parties.
Edit: The article has been updated: As rumored, Apple is partnering with Goldman Sachs for Apple Card, with Mastercard handling payment processing. The mastercard network, plus the benefits Apples is offering (eg 2pct cashback), could make this really attractive.
Edit: Apparently not.
However, if Apple can isolate most Apple purchases to using their own card, things get interesting. 3% off Apple purchases is pretty decent. Kind of like Amazon wants all it's data for purchases through it's own card.
Overall I try and use Apple Pay where I can and find about 2/3 of the time I want to use it I can. My biggest struggles have essentially been at smaller stores that still just have basic square swipers and obviously the occasional cash only locations.
It should work anywhere that touchless mastercard is accepted, though I do think that vendors can turn off apple pay specifically to avoid the fee.
I don't think merchants have to pay anything extra to accept Apple Pay. It's the banks that have to pay a "marketing fee" to Apple to let their cards work with Apple Pay.
Besides convenience, security and privacy are the backstop for my usage. I just trust Apple more to not be sleezy with my transaction history.
Here with Apple Card, even if Apple might not choose to centralise your payment data, the underlying network (MasterCard, in this case) most certainly can know where you spent it, and vendors at point of sale can keep track of it too.
Hooray for FaceID!!!
I agree with this. Maybe it's because I still have trauma from broken power buttons (back in the iPhone 4 era), but I'd like to not have to press buttons as much as possible.
For now. They are all still collecting and storing all the data. The only solution is lack of data collection to begin with.
cash is the most convenient secure and private form of payment. applepay if i run out of cash or its a larger transaction. chip (in the US) is hobbled by stupid UX (insert card, tap random buttons, sign, etc.), so swipe is usually quicker and more reliable. i never use debit.
In the UK everywhere has a payment terminal and that terminal accepts absolutely anything - credit, debit, Apple, AmEx, prepaid, cash-card, whatever. I don't know why Germany picks and chooses.
For reading the comments it seems like people are exited about the Apple Card solving a set of problem I simply don't see most people having here in Denmark.
Jobs had an unparalleled way of steering that innovation into productive avenues. He always had his Wozzes, though.
Cook probably is more like a typical manager who is good at optimizing things. Nothing wrong about that but I wouldn't expect big leaps from Apple under him.
Who?
Apple has been traveling this path for what, decades now? It can't possibly be a surprise. I suppose we could all wish it to be different, but this is in line with what they've been doing for a long time now.
How long until these companies start skipping payment processors like Visa and Mastercard and take the whole pie?
What do you mean?
How long until these companies start skipping payment processors like Visa and Mastercard?
Should that come to pass, the Apple card becomes...an Apple card.
The two seem intertwined, even though they aren't. I just assumed Apple -- if they became a payment processor -- would still provide those protections.
If they didn't, which I see is maybe what the OP was alluding to, why would anyone use the card?
There are other direct to bank account systems like Interac that skirt around the traditional “pay later” idea, without fees or benefits to the user.
All in all you could just do a direct to bank account NFC transaction but why would any company do that when they can build up an ecosystem?
Square/Clover/all the POS's used by coffeeshops and other small businesses have been taking Apple Pay for a few years now. But recently CVS started taking it, and CVS is everywhere (~6,200 stores in the US). Whole Foods is on Apple Pay. I understand Target will be following soon.
It's still not 100% penetration, but it definitely feels like the adoption expands every time a shop upgrades its POS.
Target has already deployed Apple Pay in NC at least.
I only recently bought an iPhone, but I was pleasantly surprised by the number of merchants that accepted Apple Pay.
https://corporate.target.com/article/2019/01/store-payment-o...
How often have you done this dance:
1. Notice the POS reader has an icon on it that vaguely indicates it supports some kind of NFC payment.
2. Pull out your phone and wave it around the reader.
3. No response from reader. Do I need to press something on my phone?
4. Still no response. The cashier and other customers in line are looking at you like you are wasting everyone’s time with your high tech crap.
5. Sheepishly put your phone in your pocket, pull out an actual card, and mutter something about “I guess it’s not working today...” to the cashier.
Have this awkward experience enough times and you’ll just abandon NFC payments entirely. Stores should not be allowed to indicate that their systems support NFC if their reader doesn’t work.
Supposed to have increased privacy, why I try it first.
Isn't this because Apple Pay is essentially built on top of the Visa/Mastercard/Amex contactless solutions?
We have had very good support for contactless payments for a long time, something that Apple/Google Pay will both fall back to if necessary. No one blocks them. Charges are capped in the EU, and low, so retailers are onboard. Add to that the fact that cash usage is declining fast and some places are going card only (London public transport being most notable), it’s everywhere.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactless_payment#/media/Fil...
Credit cards give better consumer protection, less hassle if your card gets cloned, and (if used sensibly) help your credit rating.
If you ever travelled to Asia and don't wanted to install WeChat then yes, cards are good unless you're ok with going cash only.
Yes, I don't care for running any of these blobs or other DRM garbage on my phone. And what's the selling point ? I don't see the difference between pulling out my card v/s pulling out my phone. Decent security (chip & pin for eg. or other 2nd factor) is perfectly possible with cards. US is just backwards in matters like these. We don't need to beat the security strawman.
Fortunately, most retail on the Navajo Nation takes Apple Pay, so I just drove over there every couple of days for supplies and paid with my Apple Watch.
Saved my bacon. But I'd still rather have plastic as a backup considering battery issues in places with extreme weather.
I’d wager this is much better than what the majority of Americans currently have.
Not to mention cards like the Chase Freedom Unlimited where 1.5% is closer to 3% when redeemed through their travel portal.
The downside is that their physical card rate (1%) is not as competitive, but they're trying to nudge people/businesses towards digital payments.
Depending on your spending habits, you are probably better off having 1 general purpose card, and then a card or two from the businesses you spend the most money at (target, amazon, walmart, costco etc) or one that fits your spending profile.
The Apple Card might make a good general spending card, but you should still have one that gets you 4-5% somewhere.
But no word on MasterCard. Will they share the data, is that their business?
Plus there are normally other companies involved when a transaction is settled later, like First Data.
CC transactions are all settled later.
however this product to me is the premier product of the event. finally someone is taking credit card use to the next level in both usability, features, and security. Most important is the level of privacy they are offering.
Now if the three percent discount holds true it will be the defacto means of purchasing from apple.com, similar to how for prime users you pretty much have to use the amazon/chase card for five percent on all purchases.
I imagined Elizabeth Warren in a fit of rage sitting in her office watching the livestream.
What about a brewery I went to this weekend where neither swipe or chip was available for their POS and the card number was manually entered?
Some people say you will be able to see the card number in your Wallet app, but somehow I doubt it. There is already a unique card number for every physical card you added to your walled, but you cannot see it. You can verify it on proof of purchase where last 4 digits are shown - they will differ from your physical card.
As for signed/unsigned, it gets vague these days. In the past you were required by your bank agreement to sign your card. If you tried to pay with spouse card the merchant was allowed to call police and destroy the card right away.
Today probably are still required to do all that with physical card, but with contactless payments its usually ignored all the time.
For Apple Pay you must agree to different set of rules, those don't require you to physically sign anything as its fully digital. Same thing here.
No, they showed a physical card as well.
I don't believe Apple itself would be the party pulling your credit history though. They've partnered with Goldman Sachs as the issuing bank, so it would probably be Goldman that runs your credit.
Yes we will give you a card... your credit limit is $0.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK9owf0PSZU
PenFed you have to be active duty military to qualify for 2%... Fidelity you have to put your 2% (not going to call it "cash") into a Fidelity product, no balance credits.
Apple requires you to use Apply Pay to earn 2%, so it comes with it's own caveats.
Until apple pay is much more widely accepted that's a caveat for them. Probably stick around with Capital One 1.5% for now.
- Chase Freedom / Discover It (Quarterly 5% categories (examples: Wholesale, Gas, Grocery, Department Stores, Mobile Pay, Home Improvement, etc.))
- Uber Visa (4% Dining, 3% Travel, 2% Online Purchases, 1% everything else)
- American Express Blue Cash Everyday (3% Grocery, 2% Gas/Department Stores, 1% everything else)
- Citi Doublecash (2% everything)
- Costco Visa (4% Gas, 3% Travel/Dining, 2% Costco, 1% everything else)
- Amazon Prime Visa (5% Amazon, 2% Dining, Grocery, Pharmacy, 1% everything else)
These are just the cards I use right now. There are no annual fees, although some require membership like Costco and Amazon. Pay your balance in full every month and it's a much better option than debit. There's a bunch of different ways to maximize rewards. See /r/churning [1] for more info.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/churning
- Chase Freedom / Discover It (Quarterly 5% categories (examples: Wholesale, Gas, Grocery, Department Stores, Mobile Pay, Home Improvement, etc.))
- Uber Visa (4% Dining, 3% Travel, 2% Online Purchases, 1% everything else)
- American Express Blue Cash Everyday (3% Grocery, 2% Gas/Department Stores, 1% everything else)
- Citi Doublecash (2% everything)
- Costco Visa (4% Gas, 3% Travel/Dining, 2% Costco, 1% everything else)
- Amazon Prime Visa (5% Amazon, 2% Dining, Grocery, Pharmacy, 1% everything else)
These are just the cards I use right now. There are no annual fees, although some require membership like Costco and Amazon. Pay your balance in full every month and it's a much better option than debit. There's a bunch of different ways to maximize rewards. See /r/churning [1] for more info.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/churning
If true, this is the true real innovation.
Or is there interest, but just no fee for not making your payment on time?
At least in the US, charge cards also (historically) charged higher fees to retailers, so a lot of stores wouldn't accept them.
Given the rates charged by many cards, I'm not sure you'd want to do that. The US has an average of 15%:
* https://www.creditkarma.com/credit-cards/i/average-apr-on-cr... * https://www.valuepenguin.com/average-credit-card-interest-ra...
You can't really compare it to mortgages or car loans, because those are both secured by a collateral. You can't really compare it to student loans because it's impossible to get out from under a student loan. Either way, the debt is less risky for the lender, so they're willing to offer it for a lower rate.
Never for truly big ticket items, but sometimes the $5 or whatever in interest to carry a small balance for a month isn't worth the extra effort it would take to free up the cash I'd need to pay it off in full without dipping below the minimum balance I like to keep in my checking account, and it's also not worth $5 to me to wait another month before replacing that busted transmission.
It depends on the matter of scale. Some folks either don't understand how things work, or are just bad at math. That's where the problems start for people.
Charge cards generally force you to pay them off each month (again, an Amex charge card expects you to clear out the balance for each cycle). This is a credit card, which means you can carry a balance.
But it appears they are much more forward on telling you how much interest you will be paying if you don't pay off the card.
FWIW late fees are a big revenue source for existing card issuers.
E.g. generally a credit card will have a minimum of, say, $29/mo., if you have a balance of maybe $500... if you have a balance of $10K the minimum might go up to $129 or something. And if you don't pay the minimum, you're hit with the late fee.
I never really understood the purpose of minimum monthly payment, except maybe it's useful in proving you're not a complete deadbeat, and also probably not dead? Getting rid of it does seem like a consumer-friendly innovation maybe?
Basically it means that borrowers should at least be paying off the interest incurred on the principal owed at the beginning of the billing period.