Ask HN: How do I ask for a raise?
What do you think is the best approach?
-I'm a shy person regarding this question, I have a friend that his method is "I have another offer, can you matched? or I'll leave" and got a raise 3/4 times.
-I'm a shy person regarding this question, I have a friend that his method is "I have another offer, can you matched? or I'll leave" and got a raise 3/4 times.
153 comments
[ 1.7 ms ] story [ 202 ms ] threadhttps://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
https://www.kalzumeus.com/2015/05/01/talking-about-money/
https://haseebq.com/my-ten-rules-for-negotiating-a-job-offer...
Using a strategy like this can work but it also carries the risk that your employer will just say "Bye then." Everyone is replaceable. If you like your current role or you don't actually have another job to go to I wouldn't use this approach. Instead, try to overcome your shyness and just ask. It only requires a one line email to initiate the conversation (eg 'I would like to schedule a meeting to talk about my current salary.'). The simple fact is retaining a good employee is far cheaper than hiring a new one, so most managers are happy to chat about it.
Alternatively, find a job at a company like Basecamp, where everyone gets the same salary for doing the same job and raises are calculated by looking at whole market for the role and increasing everyone's salary to be in the top 10% of the going rate. Basecamp employees effectively get Bay Area wages regardless of where they live without needing to be good negotiators. It's an good model that I hope more companies adopt.
12mths down the line you get replaced because why pay two people.
Businesses care about continuity over people, they don't care who does foo as long as foo gets done.
"I'm frequently contacted by recruiters suggesting that I have enough experience for roles in this area paying 20% more, but I'd much rather stay here" is a much lower risk approach of conveying the fact you have good reason to suspect you're being paid below market rates for your current experience and skillset. Not least because it saves you actually needing to have a firm offer...
Of course, the employer is also less likely to say "bye then" if the focus of your meeting is demonstrating what you've done well that's saved/made the company money, how you've improved your productivity since the original pay package was determined and additional responsibilities you'd be willing to take on rather than you explaining why you might leave.
Managers are people too and can get really grumpy at your 'oneuppance'. They may give you a raise just to fire you a few months forward, making you lose your currently better offer (If you handed a notice, that was actually what you transmitted - "I want out").
Happens a lot more than one might expect.
Typically at a big corporation, you get raises at the designated annual review cycle. Those raises are adjusted inside of Human Resources' pre-defined "salary bands" for your title.
If you want to get a raise outside of the annual review, or get raises higher than your band's ceiling, you either...
- Get a promotion. This means you need to demonstrate to managers that you can take on more responsibility and want to be compensated higher for it.
- Get another job offer with a higher salary. The company may match or exceed it. Or they may not.
Either way, you have to convince your manager to go to bat for you so the company will approve your raise.
That's fine but that isn't what I wanted to emphasize.
My point is that if you're at a Big Corporation, both you and your manager are embedded in a bureaucracy. Your manager can't single-handedly wave a wand and get you a raise on his own. He/she has to convince his superiors and Human Resources to get you a raise.
You need to imagine what your manager's bullet points would be to argue on your behalf to convince the company to increase your salary. What are your leverage points?
E.g. your role in data science work is crucial to release a $200 million product on time in the next 6 months. If you leave, everything falls apart.
On the other hand, if you have no leverage and want a raise outside of the annual review cycle and while doing the same work with no promotion... that's a harder sell for your manager.
So, ask for the meeting that will decide if you are getting a rise or not, instead.
At various times I've had a lot of anxiety regarding my job, especially when I was feeling financially vulnerable.
Regardless of how you handle this particular situation, you might try to work on the anxiety issue. You might consider a few trial session with a professional counselor. The human psyche can be pretty non-intuitive, and a good counselor can teach you a lot about how yours works. It like discovering a (partial) owners manual for your own brain, if you find the right counselor.
You should also know why you are staying (do you actually want to continue? is it still exciting to you?), if yes, then it will be much easier to explain what you have to offer. Otherwise, even if you should get more when compared to others, you might feel teethless when asking for it.
Go discreetly, say "Hi, I need a raise, please consider this amount and tell me if this is acceptable." and pass a paper with the amount written on it.
Anything more or less will be unprofessional and will probably lead to more headaches than needed.
I’d say the most dangerous part of the approach you’re recommending is that it doesn’t provide any context for why the raise is justified to the company.
This is only an emotional subject for the person getting the paycheck; it’s not emotional for the business, and it’s only emotional for the employee because of years of ingrained stigma about salary.
Asking “I’d like $x, is this acceptable” invites a Boolean response. Either they think it’s acceptable or not, with neither you nor your comp lead discussing why.
If you want to know “how would you evaluate my performance / accomplishments / etc”, ask that. If you want to know about a raise, start by telling your comp lead why you feel it’s justified, rather than leaving it up to them to define.
The tips I learned helped me plan a negotiation strategy during a new job offer. it's not perfect, but it helped remove a lot of doubt from the process.
Otherwise it's a bluff and if they call it, you end up with the same salary and on a list of unreliable employees.
Obviously, you need to be very tactful and polite when asking for a raise, and generally blame it on financial/life circumstances beyond your control that force you to look at other companies despite of really liking it here and never wanting to leave otherwise... or some such.
One way to do this is to find out what others will offer you on the market, as others have suggested. Another is to identify how your work pushed company/team/individual metrics in the right direction. Being able to say "My work on [this project] led to a 25% decrease in churn" demonstrates your ability to provide monetary value to the company. If they want to keep making more money, they would be wise to keep you.
Worked for a company for a year and loved it but was in a bit of a rut. After talking to my superior I ended up taking on an additional role but making more.
You shouldn’t have to ask for a raise. Your company should know your value. If they don’t, go to a company who does. Don’t bother with a counter offer because you’ll have to do it again and again. The company has already demonstrated they don’t value your work appropriately. Asking for a raise isn’t going to change that situation.
Your only leverage is your willingness to leave, and you’ll only really have that if you have an offer in hand. And by the time you have that offer, you’ve already decided you’re leaving even if you don’t know it yet.
2. Gather evidence FOR paying you more. You need more. Someone is getting more doing the things you do. You're doing more than what is expected of you. Things hinge on you. Make some evidence if it doesn't yet exist.
3. Gather evidence AGAINST paying you more, and prepare to refute it. Make some, if it doesn't exist yet and prepare to give up some things or distance yourself from some things. Get into your manager's head for that. Talk to them: say, if I (you) needed help with what you're doing, what would they be prepared to offer? Prepare using that.
4. Spend at least two weeks doing the above. Then schedule a morning meeting with your manager, right after lunch is best. This will be hard, better have shuffle the world around you in your favor. Good luck.
0. Read some of this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19542087 if you get stuck.
Find a better job and leave. You wouldn't be the only developer for whom that's the primary method of advancement.
It does go one of two ways, not always "when it doesn't work". But many times your salary will indeed be capped in some manner you're not aware of.
Be prepared to lose this negotiation, but don't go in thinking that you will. That will set you up to fail.
I don't, fortunately. But it's a recurring topic, and the conclusion at the end is always the same: counter offers are "too little too late", and possibly even a trap: maybe they just want to retain you for long enough to train your replacement, after which you will be fired and the new job you found will have been taken by someone else.
In healthy places, what it takes to promote someone to the next level and his or her progress on that is a regular subject of discussion in his or her scheduled 1-1s with his or her manager.
So this whole tree which assumes that what the next level is, what that looks like for a specific employee, and that employees progress on attaining that level are entirely unknown seems just strange.
Obviously there are employers out there who are underpaying their employees, but just because you find out you aren't being paid as much as possible for your skill set doesn't mean your employer is trying to stiff you.
That said, you should have a pretty good idea of what you're worth, and if you don't then that's on you. There is basically zero risk in going out and interviewing even if you aren't looking for a change, and it's a great way to establish the market for yourself. That market can change rapidly (at least while you're in the lower/middle of it).
Or you're worth what the value of your work is. There are different ways to define this.
Are things that are free automatically worthless?
The idea that you become more valuable to your old employer only once there's another employer willing to hire you, is bizarre. Your work for your old employer doesn't change. How can your value suddenly change? Your old employer was clearly underpaying you because they could afford to. Only when you get other options, are they forced to pay you what you're worth.
I kind of wish that was true. What I do now is almost completely different from what I was hired to do at my current job. Other people leaving, me getting to inherit their projects and responsibilities on top of my own, and yet my boss (who is also brand new because my previous boss resigned recently) wants to get settled and get to know me before recommending a promotion.
Yeah, I'm not waiting that long. For him it might have only been a few weeks, but for me it's been over three years.
The problem is not realizing you’re in an antagonistic relationship with your employer, when thinking about wage. This wasn’t as much an issue when the general path was as a salaryman, staying in DEC for fifty years, following strictly defined promotional paths. But today’s tech expects job-hopping, and there’s no clear timeline for re-evaluation or promotion. It now just occurs somewhat randomly, when you bring it in, or when they do. Putting in your 5 years and expecting a natural re-evaluation is no longer sufficient.
If I realise I'm in an antagonistic relationship with my employer, I leave. I don't want to spend a significant chunk of my life dependent on someone I have an adversarial relationship with. That just doesn't sound healthy.
By only re-evaluating my value when I'm about to leave, and not when I ask for a raise, the employer reveals it's an antagonistic relationship, and that's a good sign it's time to leave.
Your employer is not your agent. He doesn’t work for you.
No, but I work for him. If an agent working for me would also be an antagonistic relationship, then what use is the agent?
A good employer cares about more than just what their employees cost. At the very least, happy employees are productive employees. Employees that don't feel appreciated are not happy employees.
An employer who will only give you a raise after you've found a better offer elsewhere is a bad employer.
More notably, if you’re happy, why would I initiate the re-evaluation process to even find out whether you could get paid better elsewhere?
Would you come and tell me that you’ve been overpaid after self re-evaluating? But you expect me to come and tell you that you’ve been underpaid?
What’s the incentive here? You’re happy not knowing, I’m happy not knowing, what’s the problem? That you might find out in the future that you could have made more money for the last year, but your employer didn’t do the research and offer it you out of his own goodwill? The onus is clearly on you; you’re the only one with anything to gain. If the employer does it for you, then you can be grateful, but it would be absurd to be irrated by his not checking into how he could possibly hurt himself to help you.
>If an agent working for me would also be an antagonistic relationship, then what use is the agent
It depends which part of the relationship is adverserial. There is really no relationship where all your goals are aligned — you position your payment system to align specific components, but you should still acknowledge there are misalignments. Your travel agent is paid to get you good flights; but at the same time, he might make additional money by favoring specific airlines (with perhaps some, but minor, cost to you). There’s nothing wrong with this scenario — you’re just not fully aligned, but both parties still see benefit, so its still worth striking the deal.
In the same fashion, you as an employee are looking to make money (and don’t expect an infinite amount of it) and your employer is looking for work to be done. You dont try to find/create work to do for your company (unless you’re in sales), and the company doesn’t try to find ways to make you more money.
And thats fine. Obviously there are caveats (you can look better / earn promotions by doing more than you were requested, and the company can hand you bonuses you weren’t expecting, increasing moral), but its not part of the core relationship. It’s something the other party can be grateful for, but it would be absurd to expect it, because, well, who told you it was someone else’s job to improve your situation at cost to themselves?
Its the same kind of thinking that leads to absurd situations like putting 30 hours extra per week for free in gamedev crunches, and then being offended that it didn’t really get you anything. It’s not EA’s job to tell you that you’re doing something stupid (not that I agree with the request in the first place, but the entire gamedev industry is so problematic because the employees keep doing stupid shit in the unfounded belief of their all-benevolent employer).
An enployee that doesn’t look out for his own needs is a foolish employee.
Aren't we discussing the situation where an employee asks for a raise and it's refused? So the employee is already aware that something is missing and is bringing it up. If the employer ignores it, that's a recipe for unhappiness.
But even more than that, some employees are bad at asking for a raise for a variety of reasons, and might be unhappy about their pay yet feel uncomfortable bringing it up. There's a risk that it's easier for them to look for another job instead of asking for a raise directly. The employer giving them a raise without being asked for it, can prevent that, and make the employee happier and more likely to stay.
If you wait until the employee is unhappy enough to start looking elsewhere, the employer is already too late.
I was only talking about the scenario before the query occurs, and that the onus is on the employee to research and bring it up; my opinion on if its refused (and the alternative option is worth the trouble of change; whatever that worth may be), then it would be absurd to stay (you have a better option.. the only reason not to switch is guilt, probably misplaced)
I don’t know how much this mistake has cost us. I get the feeling that most of our conversation can be invalidated, and we’re likely very much in agreement.
While I can understand what drives this statement, I believe it's fundamentally flawed (from both perspectives).
A business is attempting to minimize and maximize many things simultaneously. One of those should be maximizing employee "happiness" for the purposes of retention, productivity, etc. Similarly, they are attempting to mimimize costs. The employee is also working to minimize and maximize many things at once. And, similarly, one area they work to also maximize is their own personal "happiness".
So, at a fundamental level, the employee and a good employer should both have they employee's happiness as a stated goal of something they'd like to maximize.
Happiness (personal and professional) can mean many things. And, an employer has many levers they can pull to help improve an employee's happiness. Sadly, one of the fundamental problems that exists in a typical employer/employee relationship is that there are very few things that an employee feels they can discuss with an employer in an attempt to maximize their own happiness; salary is typically at the top of that list.
When an employee finds their happiness tanking, it could be for many reasons. And, salary could be a cause of the unhappiness. For example, maybe the employee has taken on considerably more work in the past year and doesn't feel fairly compensated for it. But, it's quite often been my experience that the issue is actually something else entirely, and the employee is just grasping at one of the only levers they see available to pull on in the hopes it will make them happier (spoiler: it rarely does).
An example (true story) would be the Day Care provider used by the employee is no longer an option, forcing them to look for new Day Care options (highly stressful), and they are either farther away and/or cost considerably more.
An employee wouldn't typically feel comfortable bringing this (personal) problem with their employer, and instead simply ask for a raise without stating that it's to cover the increased costs (after all, this is the employee's problem). But, because they did bring up the root problem, the employer was able to discover it was an issue for many of the employees. They then found it was more cost effective to team up with a local Day Care provider within a few blocks and help provide subsidized Day Care for all the employees within walking distance. It had the benefit of dramatically improving the employees' quality of life, retention, peoductivity, etc. Likewise, it was cheaper than giving everyone raises and not actually solving the root problem.
To the OP, my recommendation would be to think through the fundamental reason why you want a higher salary. There's nothing wrong with wanting more money, and if that's what it is, go for it. But, it means you will likely need to switch jobs. If the raise, however, is a means of trying to fix something else and make you happier, think through what that is and be open to working with your employer to come up with solution together (which might be a raise!).
You may be pleasantly surprised.
I agree about counter-offers being a lousy basis for a work relationship. It's like getting married because someone says "propose-or-we-break-up". But also don't just chase a minor raise at the cost of all else. Know what you're genuinely worth. Be almost as suspicious of someone who's offering you more money than you're worth as you are of someone who's offering you less money than you're worth. It could be a sign that they're struggling to retain people or attract people, and are throwing money at the problem (money's not always the problem). It could be that they have unsustainable growth, and aren't watching expenses and are just trying to increase headcount. It could be your current employer is an exploitative jerk, but just be aware.
THIS.. this part is very important.
Also remember to have a BATNA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiat...
another key point is don't settle for 'we will review this next quarter' or something along those lines which is just their strategy to play for time.
The only argument AGAINST this is that if they have a clear review process outlined when you joined the company.
Most companies want to batch up these operations so that they're not constantly reviewing salaries at unusual times.
My point is that if they ARE reviewing you don't let them punt on the decision.
IF they do then start looking for a new gig.
Even within the same organization - a raise would typically entail that you take on new or more responsibilities.
“Read, read, read. Read everything -- trash, classics, good and bad, and see how they do it. Just like a carpenter who works as an apprentice and studies the master. Read! You'll absorb it. Then write. If it's good, you'll find out. If it's not, throw it out of the window.”
― Robert C. Martin, Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/835238-indeed-the-ratio-of-...
That a person functioning as a software engineer expects:
a) Not to need to read or understand other persons code
b) Not to need to learn how new codebases work
Sounds completely unprofessional and misguided based on my experience.
I get the point about everything being 100% new at a new job being more uncomfortable than the incremental newness you should constantly be experiencing. But still - if you do have a hard time justifying a raise, remember that you're asking the company to bet more money on your. Bet on yourself first, step outside your comfort zone a little, and try lead in a way you haven't much before.
But the fact is that it's just much much easier to convert ideas to code than code to ideas. It's also much easier to convert ideas to English than English to ideas, so better documentation probably helps, but it still sucks. (E.g. consider reading any sizable IEEE standard. It's all there, carefully described, but it's still a lot of work to understand.)
So yeah, many people prefer writing code to reading code, me including.
And BTW this is one thing that my university didn't quite get right. They focused a whole lot on writing code, but not as much on reading. The latter of course proved to be much much more important in my daily job.
/diversion
It's enough time to get value from meeting new peers and make valuable contributions that they will remember but not short enough that they will view you as someone who's continually job shopping.
I've been jumping ship every 2-3 years, for the past 15 years, and it's been working out well for me.
There are two ways to make more money in software development. Either take on more responsibility and be a force multiplier or gain skills/experience where the demand outstrips the supply.
During the first part of your career. Gaining experience to make more money without taking more responsibility is pretty easy. After that, you really do have to take on more responsibility or go into consultancy.
I make more now and have more influence using relationship and expert power than I ever did with the role power I had before - the three levers of power in an organization.
As an addendum, I recommend you interview anyway. In this strong economy there is no risk. In a weak economy they might toss you since they know you are looking..
Advancement happens, but it's the exception not the rule. Strong organizational growth is a driver of the exceptions.
Changing workplace every so often will help with your shyness anwyay, plus a lot of folks find more varied work more stimulating.
Did this, got raise. I had an offer and other company offered me more, but I decided to stay anyway. It's been a year and I don't think I'll get another raise any time soon. I really regret about mine decision.
Saying you have a competing offer may work in a big company, but in lots of smaller places that would immediately mark you as unloyal if you tried it more than once.
As always leaving implies you live somewhere with lots of jobs on your doorstep, and that you have the flexibility to pack up. That might not be the case, or you might actually (shock horror) enjoy your job. Depending on your industry, jumping ship may require a lot of preparation. You know the drill: that means whiteboard practice, waiting for weeks to bounce around HR folks, all day technical interviews and so on.
The subtle method is to ask for more time off (or other perks) so your effective salary increases. I would rather have an extra 10% time off than 10% more pay. At a smaller company working from home may be an option too.
Right. Alternatively you can ask "what can I do on my side to make my salary higher". The management tends to get less defensive and now open with such approach.
Rather than stating that you have another offer, you can research what people in your field are making. When I asked for a raise, I put together charts and graphs of what people are making in the industry in order to justify the raise.
Instead of saying you would like 150k per year, ask for a very specific amount such as 152,400 so that it seems like you've really calculated this number.
Ask for a range rather than a single number, such as 152,400-161,100. They will likely offer something at the lower end of the range but next to the higher number, the lower number look a lot lower than it would alone.
Be prepared to ask for intangibles if you don't get the monetary compensation. You can ask for your own office, more vacation time, to work from home, etc. But don't ask for these until after they have respond to your request for more money or they may default to this instead of more money.
Understand the mindset. Even if you don't get a raise right now when you ask for it, you are doing yourself a great service by asking for more. You are showing that you feel you are worth it, which translates to a lot of respect from management. Even if you don't immediately get the raise, there is a good chance you'll get a lot more of a raise at your next review just because you indicated that you aren't afraid to ask for more and you have confidence in your own ability and value.
Management would rather have a good employee ask for a raise than just go out and find another job without giving them the opportunity to discuss it.
The employer has 365 opportunities a year to "discuss it", but most somehow only manage to have a one-sided discussion once per year. I have never been asked "are you happy with your current compensation?" by anyone other than recruiters for other companies. I have frequently volunteered "I am not happy with the apparent reduction in non-salary benefits in comparison to last year" (mostly due to the health insurance plan).
As long as I have to ask for more money in order to get more money, I might as well go ask someone else, too. Getting a new job is very much like asking for a raise from someone you haven't met yet. So if I am already at that point, there's no particular reason why I'd ask my current boss first. They could have given me a raise any time they feel it is appropriate, yet somehow did not.
"What That Idiot Hardcastle at International widgets is on 2 Million, I am worth more than that."
The other reason is that it might expose direct or indirect discrimination.
In academia, even while the salaries are rather meager, at least they are public and equal to everybody (depending only on your position and seniority, according to some public tables). We could very well do with a bit of wage inflation!
(IANAL)
If you want a raise, ask for a meeting with your manager and layout a few good reasons why you need a raise: you've worked there without a raise for a year+, you've tackled on more responsibilities and executed.
Generally, to get a raise you need to meet some sort of expectation or goal. Sometimes managers are bad at setting those goals - so do it for them. Don't tie those goals to money beforehand. Wait til the goal is reached then review your performance. Most managers will find it hard to turn you down.
I see it as: guys, I could have resigned, but I love working here so much that I'd rather stay.
And also, please, when discussing your goals with the manager, mention the salary raise. What you have to do for a pay increase may be different forum what you have to do for, say, a new title. The surprise at the next review may be quite unpleasant.
Also - I am not suggesting not to discuss a salary raise early on. I am suggesting not tying that raise to some performance goal. Keep it open...
Tell them that you like to work for this company and are willing to stay for the next time. This is valuable for the company.
This is not really / always true.
In the Bay Area people are always talking and you could easily just say you went to lunch with friends and they basically gave you a verbal offer and that you weren't directly shopping but it just fell in your lap.
1) Your responsibilities have increased 2) You have become an integral and important part of the team/project, so it would be costly for them to replace you 3) Your skills have improved
The second and the third point rely on the fact that you'd be probably able to get a better salary elsewhere. The first point is mostly about fairness. By assuring that you're treated fairly, they can be sure that you do your best. The second point is the least likeable reason for me, because in that scenario you're not making the judgment from your perspective but from theirs (by realizing your salary potential by not screwing them).
You should get a raise of around (at least?) 5% pa. 2% being general inflation, 3% for more experience.
The whole thing about pay being tabu is a mindgame played by your employer. Remember the person whom you are making the ask to has all the information, negotiates pay 10 times (maybe 100 times) pr. year.
You are really being a sucker if you don't ask. And you are not doing any favours to your fellow coworkers.
Once you have options you can have an honest conversation with your current manager to say that you're not satisfied with what you're currently earning and would like to earn 'x' based on the market rate for that role/your skills. Expect some potential push back / negotiation on that figure but have a minimum raise you want to get in order to consider it a success.
If they do not want to give you that minimum, then be prepared to take one of your alternative options and go elsewhere. Their loss. So shop around because at the end of the day, it's mostly just business.