Ask HN: Are you ok?
https://www.ruok.org.au/
My Australian friend just linked this to me and I thought it would be good question to ask HN. IME HN and perhaps software development in general contains a lot of at-risk personalities in stressful work environments that don't get asked this question enough. I think you are all interesting, intelligent, hard-working people and mental health is unfortunately still stigmatised in the tech community. Feel free to ask any coworkers today who have been struggling as well.
898 comments
[ 5.4 ms ] story [ 145 ms ] threadI’ve been leetcoding but have only passed 3/7 tech screens only to be ghosted for the on-site after a pass or passed up after the on-site.
Starting to question if I was ever creative or really good at this profession - but don’t think I’m skilled enough or have the energy to do my own startup.
I have 2yrs experience, but scared my prior work history will make it look like I jump jobs or can’t hold a job down.
Fortunately, my health and mental health are in check and I have a place to live in the US that’s relatively cheap.
> ghosted for the on-site after a pass
Not sure if I'm misreading, but are you saying interview was cut short / you had an interview lined up that just got pulled at the last minute? If that's the case -- don't worry about it. This is like organizational maturity level of 0, I had this happen exactly once in my early career and it screwed me up for a little bit. So if that's what happened and I didn't just misread -- don't spend any time taking it to heart.
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EDIT: The reason I ask, this is something I wouldn't mind doing but I've never really considered due to a lack of credentials.
I could swing a referral for you if it wasn't Amazon.
Thanks for the offer though, means a lot.
In my particular case, it was later determined that I am manic-depressive which I think contributed to my firings, but I haven't ever told an employer about this and don't plan to. Typically I find that a lot of people are pretty forgiving of younger people hopping around a lot early in their career.
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My point is, try to not get too upset over it; I'm sure you'll find something soon, and I wouldn't worry too much about a slightly spotty work history in your first couple years.
I've only been in this field for 5 years myself, but I've climbed this job-hunt mountain before if you want a good pep talk. I've taught people how to get their first job, which is a lot harder imo.
Totally up to you, wish you the best either way
What type of employers are you targeting? How many resumes have you sent out? Are you trying to target a single geographical area? Open to moving? All those can drastically effect your prospects. Have you tried more traditional enterprise or non-tech companies?
If you want some resume feedback, shoot it to me, my email is in my profile.
I'm tired of being on call 24/7/365.
I'm tired of having to explain why plaintext passwords are bad.
I'm tired of being taken advantage of for being a generalist.
I'm tired of ex-google asshole bosses with massive egos.
I'm tired of carrying a laptop with me "just in case".
I'm tired of the constantly shifting "popular" technologies.
I'm tired of spending weekends indoors studying for work, instead of work giving time to learn.
I'm tired of pretending to find conferences on monitoring systems exciting.
I'm tired of my coworkers and bosses being high at work.
I'm tired of JIRA.
I'm tired of consultants telling us how we're using JIRA wrong.
I'm tired of the politics behind technical decisions.
I'm tired of having to learn another DSL.
It all feels unreal. Can't wait to get out of this field.
I'm trying to get out of for-profit tech and into the non-profit space to do data/FOIA/investigative work. It's still "tech work" at the end of the day, but without the deep dread of making rich dudes richer.
You don't have to be on call. You can find a company where this is a choice (gives benefits / additional salary but not mandatory).
> I'm tired of spending weekends indoors studying for work, instead of work giving time to learn.
You shouldn't. Weekends are there for a reason, they are necessary to rest. You should try to change company if this is not the case.
I believe most of your points exist in all fields, in their own way. Good work-life balance is important to handle them.
anyway none of those things are gonna matter in 20 years, but you probably know that. Do you have friends in tech to vent to?
I say it because for me, it's true.
I've been in therapy for the last six months, figuring that it a more constructive way of coping with being a middle-aged man than getting a mistress or a motorcycle.
You know what I learned yesterday? I learned that I've been autistic my whole damn life, and never got properly diagnosed.
I got into tech because when everybody around me told I was a selfish, misanthropic asshole, I believed them. When the adults around me told me by getting into tech I wouldn't have to deal with people, I believed them, too.
My entire adult life is built on one half-truth and one outright lie.
The lie is that getting into tech would let me avoid dealing with people. I think everybody here knows that that is arrant bullshit.
The half-truth is that while I do often come across as selfish and misanthropic, it's possible that these qualities can be attributed in part to having grown up with an undiagnosed autistic spectrum disorder.
I've spent my entire life faking it, burning myself out to pass for neurotypical while also pretending to be passionate about building yet another government web application with ETL and batch processing. If you were me, you might wish for the Butlerian Jihad too.
Oh, and I work for Accenture. Work there long enough and you'll start thinking that maybe the Wobblies[1] have the right idea.
1: https://iww.org
For those that struggle, a support network is critical. Lean on & spend time with family, whether that’s blood family or the friends you’ve collected who are that close.
I'd been working hard to maintain the appearance of being OK for many years, not even letting my support network know I was struggling...finally came clean with them and they've been nothing but supportive. Towards the end there, a lot of the stress had been just in keeping up appearances, which was stupid!
Also, OP, feedback for your friend who built the site - site scrolling is sticky on Android. I can scroll normally for a couple seconds until some JS loads and pins the menu at the top, then I can't scroll anymore. Suggest you stop messing with the scroll bar.
On a scale of 1-5 (low good, high bad), what's your stress level since we last met?
If my teammate says 4 or 5, I ask what we can do to bring it down to a 3.
We also address this as part of the simple assessment we do in each sprint retrospective.
My company struggles to define meaningful KPIs and OKRs. This is the one that's most important to me.
Relatedly, I've heard that in Helsinki they have some mobile saunas which are parked in front of businesses which are available for stressed out employees... not sure how true it is.
It never feels like i have to plan my vacations around work, and my previous manager was very strictly insisting on no emails or comms while you were on vacation, and i loved how it actually worked out.
But the real problem comes when the stress is caused by the team lead!
Some of it could be "solvable" (better pay, better hours, ...), but some of it may not (family problems, health issues, ...).
Is it taken into account or addressed?
But job-related stress is there and is often solvable (e.g., a developer may be stressed if he committed to a a week's worth of work done in 2 days, etc.). My 2c.
Flexible work hours, remote work and a strictly never-over-40-hours work week has been absolutely essential to be able to cope and still be a good parent (hockey practice weekdays at 4 twice a week for example).
Trying to help with non-work-related things directly is a minefield, but ensuring that the employee has access to everything they need to succeed should be table stakes.
Solving stress out of work is not reasonable. But knowing about it and being flexible is. One key reason to understand this is that many people recommend vacations to people who are stressed. If stress is coming from outside then this has a negative effect and work may be an escape from whatever other issues.
As a manager I’d consider tools to use might include paid time off, temporary re-assignment to work that is more rewarding/less demanding.
Even simple things like showing concern by following up to find out how those life stresses are coming along and being an ear to listen can go a long way.
I don't know if there are inventories for depression, but every time someone tells me I'm a bit talkative I take the Young Mania Ratings Scale. It's a wonderful, wonderful tool:
https://psychology-tools.com/test/young-mania-rating-scale
Or if you work for a company that puts life insurance on you to profit from your death: "What can we do to take that to a 6?"
Welcome to impostor syndrome!
If I were in a situation where I felt like I needed to approach interactions with my manager this way lest they try to screw me, I don't think I'd be interested in staying in that kind of environment. I guess some folks have overriding priorities where they are willing to endure antagonism and gotchas like that, but sheesh.
Obviously this is filtered through (emotional) humans, and job roles have differing fungibility, but the corporation doesn't really care about you except perhaps where it benefits itself.
If someone is treated this way, a whole cadre of other >people< had to be the ones to enact it. My previous statement stands - maybe there are overriding reasons to do business with people like that for some, but to me that's a hard pass. If you can't trust somebody to even be a decent human being, what can you trust them with?
One way I could try to pre empt this is to say: "nobody was ever fired for answering 4 or 5 to this question"
But I'm not sure how effective that would be.
If they don't have much to complain about it will be low priority items, if they're in a 4-5 situation it will be a longer discussion. At least they might be more open to explain heavy stuff if they know you're there to solve them and not just analyse.
With rare exceptions, management wants to hear 'no problem' and that 'everything is fine'.
The next thing to do is a PowerPoint chart for the 2nd level managers showing names and stress levels over time with trends.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZTvMYQSl_w
Also you should leave when there is more middle management then people who do real work.
This makes me so sad. As a manager (formerly an engineer), I want to hear about problems as soon as possible! I can help! It's my job to clear roadblocks, to help find interesting projects, to keep the team working well together for the long term.
It doesn't do me, the engineer, the project, or the team any good to hide problems. Such a bummer when managers push for short term results over the long term health of the team.
OTOH, directors/VPs (and other intermediate levels in larger firms) are not only the people that senior technical staff will run to for various reasons, but also are the folks who love to hear 'no problem' and that 'everything is fine'. Bringing them things to worry about is best done cautiously. In the final analysis, the worker bees are ERUs.
YMMV (very much so) of course. I can speak only for about a dozen companies. The world is a big place.
I immediately begin to micro-analyze what the likely outcome would be for each scenario. Does these get recorded, and reflected upon to judge my ability? Will it spread? What will the 1on1 manager think of me? If I answer 4-5 am I not capable? If I answer 1-2, are they going to think I'm more capable than I am, and overwork me?
etc etc. Probably not a fault of the question / approach.. just how I operate. Every move in life is a chess move.. and it's stressful.
You'd think I'd be further along in life with that attitude. Yet, it's a fairly recent (~10years) adjustment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZTvMYQSl_w
I kept up with him until he felt at around a 3 and then I asked him to take bereavement then... he kept sending me pictures of his WoW Classic character doing quests during his vacation... love that guy.
If it's prefaced by this I would be even more scared. It's like a parent telling you "I won't get mad or punish you if you tell me the truth". Spoiler -- they always get mad.
So it would be zero effective. Employees cannot trust their employer to act ethically, at any level of management, ever. Full stop. Every measurement that could be used to influence management will be gamed. The employee can't know whether their manager is asking out of genuine concern, or due to a top-down directive to identify stressed workers, probably so they can be fired first.
If you want to know if the employees are stressed or unhappy, ask via an anonymizing third-party, such as their union rep.
The number doesn't matter as much as doing anything one can to help.
eg, imposter syndrome. It has a cure. But being okay bringing it up and asking for help is required steps. This doesn't have to be with a manager. It can be with a therapist. People care, and if they don't, is it worth working in an environment like that?
If I didn't trust my lead to not potentially think less of me (consciously or not), or even worse, to use my answer against me somehow (toxic environment) ... then I definitely would answer "2 or 3" even if I was a 5.
That said, I've managed people who have mental health problems that results in high anxiety from answering these types of questions. As a manager / lead you have to know your employees and work with each of them as an individual.
If it's a 1 or 2 I will assume you want to push it to 3 as well.
It's not great, of course, but there is huge potential downside to being honest.
Why not 1? Is the only way to work effectively to be moderately stressed?
https://www.google.com/search?q=stress+productivity+curve
Years ago, I noticed one of my reports had been performing uncharacteristically poorly, often late to work, making sloppy mistakes etc. I dug into it a bit in one of our one-on-one meetings and turns out he had a lot of things going on in his personal life, his girlfriend had been laid off from her job, there was an illness in the family etc.
All we did as a company was give him two weeks off work so he could focus on dealing with things, and he was back to normal, and went on to have a long and successful tenure at the company.
This worked only because we were a very small company, and he and I had a pretty good personal relationship and hung out socially outside of work, so he felt comfortable enough to confide in me given the opportunity.
It's not a meaningful KPI where I work, since everyone's basically bullshitting all the time to keep the number low.
1. I am often the source of unexpected stress.
Sometimes it's something I said (or didn't say). It may be something that gets interpreted in a way I didn't expect. Simply clarifying what I meant or discussing the matter further usually resolves the more serious aspects of the issue.
2. It's frequently a great way to address issues that improve performance or productivity.
This is not the point. But a lot of times I'll have a developer, especially a younger developer, say something like, "I'm really stressing out over this user story I'm working on." Then we have a higher level discussion on design or scope or something else that's blocking them.
I also learn important business-related stuff I might not have known otherwise. "Wait, you're working on that? Why are we working on that?" Or, "Oh, cool, I didn't realize we we're doing that." And then we discuss that with the goal of taking the stress out of things.
3. Personal issues do come up.
Occasionally my teammate will ask something like, "Are we talking about stuff here in the office or home, too?" I'll usually respond anything goes but note that my ability to help is largely constrained by things I can control here in the office. But that includes, as other have suggested, a more flexible schedule, days off, or referrals to others that may be better qualified to help. A manager's ability to assist is going to depend to a certain extent on the culture and policies of the organization. But as others have pointed out, sometimes the most important thing for the person you're talking to is just being heard out.
I'm a little surprised by the level of skepticism exhibited in the response to my original comment. I mean I understand it. But if your response to your manager asking this question in a 1-on-1 is to immediately question your manager's motives, I'd recommend looking for another job. I'm not saying it will be easy to find one, especially one with an organization or supervisor who is necessarily any better. But as this thread shows, they are out there. And if that is your reaction and you're not exploring your options, I think you're ignoring a huge signal regarding your wellbeing.
I'd also say if this is a question you think it would help to discuss with your manager and you're not sure how to bring it up, maybe ask them the question.
Finally, my point in mentioning this is to hopefully encourage more leads and managers to ask this question or some variant of it and pay attention to the issues raised in this thread. If your reports are unduly stressed out, you're not getting your best performance out of them. You're not really doing your job.
And to clarify this isn't an official metric in any sense. It's really just an icebreaker to get to underlying issues that may affect performance and wellbeing. 3 is a step on the way to 2. 2 is optimal in my view. But if someone is a 1 and they're getting their work done, all the better!
I'm hoping it's a corrective to a lot of the braindead KPIs and metrics and just generally toxic practices that are out there. But, yes, something like that IT Crowd clip is a potential unintended consequence of this question in the wrong organization. To the extent you can make things better for yourself and others, please do so.
If I can help anyone, you can probably guess my gmail address. Feel free to drop me an email.
I was in a high pressured project for about 3 years and saw many engineers leave the project due to it. My fear that for the engineers still in it after 2nd year, their stress level of 4-5 has become the new stress level of 3. It has essentially masked the problem.
I'm in substantial debt for me but at the rate in which I earn I can pull myself out of it within 6 months, but I've been working on launching new companies and it's been a struggle. My 2 cofounders are waiting for me to finish my part of the process so they can go sell, I'm almost there. The property I was renovating has taken way longer than it should have but it's almost done. My car got seized by the police because I wasn't aware it was uninsured, taken all day to sort that and I'm not done yet. Clients are not paying invoices, I'm having to manage a number of other things at the same time, and the charity I run with my other half might be getting sued.
I need to find some work soon and bring in some money. So if anyone wants a remote php/js dev let me know. I know I've got a lot of things I'm dealing with but basically all of them are 90% there so life will simplify soon.
My unsolicited advice is to say no more often - if an opportunity comes along but you're already overworked, you might need to pass on it.
First, I take comfort in knowing that the cumulative crappiness is sometimes just an unfortunately coincidental timing of multiple, crappy problems. And I know such coincidences will happen time to time. So that comforts me in knowing that it's not part of some long-term, downward trajectory in my life.
I'm almost too embarrassed to share this second one, but it really helps me so I will. When crappy times like you're having happen to me, sometimes the song "Mama Said" by The Shirelles [0] goes through my head. It always brings a little levity and perspective to my mood :)
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L842mz-tNBQ
I've just gotta keep going, stop anything new coming onto my plate (within my control anyway) and just deal with these things one at a time until the list gets shorter and shorter and i feel better. Its gunna take some time though.
Things could definitely be better, but I'm working on changing that. It may mean leaving tech almost entirely. It can be a lonely place, plus it's full of arrogance and anal retentiveness and I've never completely fit in with it. (not saying I don't have my own share of arrogance) But I don't feel too bad about it because I don't have a sense of being trapped. I think a lot of people aren't OK because they feel trapped in whatever it is they are doing. I wasn't always a happy person, but I've found that having a mindset of "I can get out of this trap" has helped me in being a more positive person.
I hope all y'all who aren't OK do get OK. :)
list of things that in my experience may help if you suspect someone's not right:
* not eating alone
* eating at all, but the above makes it likelier
* when people give feedback that can be difficult, and instead of expecting the person to have an answer or excuse ready, build in time "off" with no f2f
* during difficult meetings or occasions where outbursts are narrowly averted, ask the person their opinion after. feeling listened to helps.
* if the problem is someone is working "too hard", 100% they kind of hate their non-work lives. They may actually also hate work but work is something predictable. Send them to a conference somewhere.
* people who have no friends will usually tell you so in exactly those words in the right circumstances. Believe them, it's a huge (huge!) contributor.
I don't think this is a unique situation, I'm sure a lot of people on this site are in a similar boat. If you're reading this, I hope you find comfort in knowing it's not just you.
I also hate my job. Bad culture and unfulfilling. We will both find something better in due time, I can feel it.
About 6 weeks ago I've decided to start getting up at 5AM and work on them before work. I find that works much better. I work on my projects for a couple of hours and get to the office about 8AM. Then that way when I leave the office I'm done for the day.
OK
Except that guy. Fuck that guy.
Seriously why are you asking? What are you going to do about it if I say no? Oh, nothing? What a surprise! Fuck you. Fuck all of you.
Sorry guy, politically correct and socially acceptable expressions of misery only.
Fuck you. Fuck all of you.
Most young people in the world can't afford a house. They rent apartments or stay with parents until their jobs pay more and they accumulate savings in the meantime - or, alternatively, they shacked themselves with decades of debt and get a mortgage (not everyone is mentally built for that though). Also, many people never decide to buy a house, and just get a (cheaper) flat instead.
A mortgage is just renting a place from the bank at the market price of when you bought the house + some enforced savings. It's hardly a mill stone compared to renting for the same number of years.
A few things:
- You don't need to buy a house outright, get a loan. The only big cost is just the downpayment (5-20% of the price)
- There are no shortage of jobs out there for you as a new grad, but there are very few good jobs (at least where I live, YMMV). It's ok to work somewhere you don't like that pays the bills for a year and then find something better once you have more experience
- Another point on housing: rent as long as you can because mobility is a blessing. You may find a fantastic job across the country, and if you have a house it will make it that much harder to leave. Imo, stability is for older people who know they're going to work for a single company the rest of their careers.
A lot of this is opinion, so take it how you will.
Also closing costs can be large. I'd long thought the big up-front cost was the down payment plus maybe $3k of inspections and closing costs, so I was surprised when I bought my place and had nearly $30k in closing costs, transfer taxes, etc up front.
- Set up a budget, and get into the habit of sticking with it. I just do the bare minimum, writing down (or putting into a spreadsheet) everything I buy with very basic categories: need, want, food. Make sure you give yourself enough 'wants' money, or it'll be harder to stick to. Put the rest in savings/investments, and then don't worry about the next step of house or other big purchases, because you'll be on track to afford them. - Don't worry too much about the specifics of your commute/living space/job right now. Choose whichever one you feel is the best for now, and keep in mind you're not stuck there. You can always leave for a better situation after a year or two. - Caveat to the last point: most employers will work with you in the hiring process. Worried about the commute? Tell them that, ask for a bus pass or an extra day of from-home work. Feel like you should be making a bit more than the offer? Say that. Don't be afraid to negotiate a little bit because doing that will get you much farther ahead in the long run.
Just some unorganized thoughts, but you've got this!
If the thoughts are getting in the way of your life, for example causing you to stay curled up on the floor for more than five minutes, it's okay to redirect them. You're not going to "miss out" on your life's best decision by only allowing yourself five minutes to obsess on the future per 6-hour timebox. So, when they occur, accept the thoughts for a while, if something emerges that you think is a good plan write it down, and then after the five minutes are up get up and call a friend, do a physical activity, or put on a song you like.
If the same thoughts recur too often you can allow yourself to ditch them; tell yourself "I always think [that I can't afford a house] and it never leads to a good place!" and then make a conscious effort to think about how much you'd like to renovate a house or people in your life who have mortgages and still go on international vacations.
Above all, everyone I know who's over 25 has been there, and we're still alive. You'll be us someday.
Its perfectly reasonable to grab your degree, walk off the stage, and take a backpack and rummage the wilderness for a few months. The rest of the world can wait, you always have time at that age, and there is no race - you just have to look at those twenty years your elder to see where trying to run the predetermined path gets most people. And the answer is usually hard drug use, depression, and stress related illness for the rest of their lives, maybe with some investors profiting quite lavishly off of years taken from them during their inspired years.
And I feel like I'm missing expectations because of it, and attempts at fixing the situation just feel like it gets met with further isolation, which creates even more anxiety. I think it might just be a bad fit, but I also feel like I'm really struggling to keep up sometimes, because I want to do really good, well tested, solid work, but I feel like my deadlines aren't set with my input at all, they're simply dictated to me and I'm expected to just perform, on demand, no matter how much time it takes, and the workload doesn't feel right to me, or even similar to what other team members have to deal with. I sometimes get the feeling I'm the odd person out on the team, but its hard to say because there's little transparency. I even went as so far as to read past reviews from my previous job and they all remark about how well I am a team player, being open to feedback and new ideas I was, so I'm not sure why I'm failing so bad at this one.
It never feels like I'm satisfying my boss and my peers seemed to have iced me out.
My country is being ripped apart, everyone seems so hateful against the other, the government talks about record employment level and pay while people are using foodbanks and sleeping in the streets.
My own life is great by the standards that people usually use to measure success. But it feels so empty. I'd rather check out and go and live in a cave on a hill, but all the land and caves have been parcelled off and sold before I was even born.
So here I am, I continue to live, step over people on my way to work, where I sit and help contribute to climate change, feel the guilt of all of it and wanting to change it but without knowing how.
But yes, a lot of countries are like that at the moment.
It feels like we're sliding backwards in civil discourse and it's quite disappointing. We've lost all patience for our neighbor. It's all a black and white, right or wrong, "where do YOU stand?" environment.
Well, at least we get to know how people feel during major world changes.
Theres a reason there is a correlation between intelligence and suicide rates or why if you have someone in your family with down syndrome they always seem happy. The wider your perception the more you realize how little you can actually do to influence it. The narrower the easier it is the less there is to worry about.
Nobody has the perfect answer to this problem of course, but one option I like is to budget time for it. Spend a few hours a week "trying to fix the world" and then resign the other 164 hours to trying to fix and improve yourself. If you have explicitly allocated time for something and budget for it its less invasive in the rest of your life. Hopefully. Doesn't work for everyone.
How is it that the same dynamic could be happening in so many countries that are ostensibly so different from each other?
I am inclined think that this is because of technological disruption, but how, exactly? Is this because of automation, globalization, or perhaps technology breaking governance systems somehow?
Automation, for example, was supposed to lead to easier lives with more free time for our own activities, but as I look around I see everyone being so so busy. As a society we are able to produce more and at a greater pace, but all the proceeds of that go up to the top and all of the rest of the people lose out from it.
https://khanism.org/perspective/minimalism/
I attempted this a 2nd time in a car and it wasn't quite as good, but I'm still glad I did it:
https://khanism.org/perspective/a-tale-of-two-journeys/
If you're under 30, holiday work visas are great. Tons of countries have these agreements, they're cheap ($200 ~ $300) and let you live and work in another country for a year. The US has them with Australia, NZ, Ireland and a few non-English speaking countries too. IT work doesn't require certification like some professions (medical, legal) so it's easier for us to get work.
A lot of people are afraid to make these kinds of jumps. I will admit after that last 5 month drive and watching my bank account drain, I can understand the security of a job and I probably won't take off again (unless I can get into grad school to work on my PhD). It's much more difficult with family/kids, although two people I graduated with lived out of an RV for a while and even raised their kids for the first few years in RVs. One got off the road because he got cancer and needed to settle down to be close to a hospital for treatment. The other decided to home school in the RV.
> step over people on my way to work
This was one of the reasons for the 2nd journey, because that was life in Seattle.
I think overall this concept seems nice, the "R U OK?" but it fails to actually help people from the systemic problems of dissatisfaction with life. The best intentions cannot solve issues of loneliness or missing a life partner. They cannot correct a society which pushes young men and women to get STEM jobs and fancy careers instead of going into the fields they want (honestly I think men should be encouraged to go into art and education and more fulfilling work instead of women being encouraged into the same careers that leads men to be totally unhappy with our lives; but that's a whole different rabbit hole).
I'll end this rant by saying I've been lonely for quite some time, but still recently walked away from two potential relationships. One of them brought up really early she wanted a family and the other I had shared the fact that I didn't want kids. When I was younger I always assumed I'd have kids, because every girl I dated wanted them. Now that I'm almost 40; I just don't want to bring anyone else into this world to suffer and die.
I think these problems are big, really big, and this kind of website or concept isn't going to help people really get past the feeling of deep unsatisfactions with our lives. That takes a lot more work; and a way to build a better world.
To be able to even get to the point of having 20k in savings, you must have an incredible safety net in terms of both society and family that allows that to happen. You are incredibly privileged to have been able to even save that kind of money, let alone take a year and live with it.
I dated am American in Germany who lived off less than €400 a month (mostly from teaching English) for several years .. although that's kind a bad example because she lost her visa for not having enough work.
Sure my field makes it easier, but it's not necessary. I've met people who were not in high paying fields who could do the same (and honestly if I had been better with my money and lived like them, I could have made it 2 or 3 years on that much). It's really about your priorities.
Good luck doing this if you're in a committed relationship. Good luck doing this if you have kids, for example.
For anyone who's put down even basic roots, this is a difficult bit of advice, if not downright unhelpful.
If you read my other comment, I mentioned people who did the same thing that were low income too. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but if you can get it to work with your current skills and situation it's possible. You don't need a lot of money, but you do need to adjust your priorities.
And of course if you have family, commitments, etc, there are other ways you can break free. Let's list some other ideas for people. This is just one thing that I did.
1.) The general problems on this thread seem to be from professionals with good jobs, but feeling unfulfilled, depressed, lonely, ect. Thus it is a possibility for them.
2.) He opens with "this is why I did _____", and only talked about how it helped (and also hurt) HIM, not how EVERYONE should do this. Thanks for the post :)
Even considering the restrictions of relationship and kids: 30% of my office is still youg-ish, single with over $20k in savings (as far as I can guess).
Not all advice is for everyone, but I think a long, long vacation away from your current tech career, that has left you with some savings, might be a good fit for this forum.
Also, in terms of it being unhelpful, I think it's important to find a way to distill it to a scenario which isn't beyond your situation - get away for the week instead of a year, find joys in simple and cheap things, bushwalk with your kids, reduce to four days/week, etc. When someone gives their personal/general advice, it's your choice whether you find something of use there, right?
I really enjoyed the time I spent away, but I do have to acknowledge that the happiness wasn't through the things that bothered being solved, but only making it easier to ignore or distract myself from them. In the end I wasn't finding the meaning that I was looking for, and the draw of family ties and relationships brought me back home.
You and me both brother.
I often think about reconciliating tech with people. Going to help climate change related companies. Or solar powered (if that's of any help) ones.
Maybe even doing small apps for associations. At my last job, I saw how the used very limited tools and people have to work with paper listings the old way even though a simple bit of software logic could alleviate a good amount of stress. I think a lot of people are looking for that.
And just yesterday I ran into a german guy who made is own recruiting agency, his clients are helping optimizing energy consumption, plus they aim at open source too. Felt like a great idea to copy.
For the intersection of climate change and tech - check out Impact Makers [1] and their Slack community. Plenty of developers, designers, PMs, and data analysts working on various projects and companies across the spectrum of tackling climate change. I'd also recommend looking at and perhaps attending some effective altruism meetups in your city - it's a nice way to meet real people thinking about the same things with similar goals. Lastly I've found the 80,000 Hours website [2] to be a great resource for getting an idea of potential job paths, openings, and resources.
It hasn't been an instant fix but after setting some long-term goals in this space and starting to work towards them I've felt my mental health improve. I hope yours can too!
[1] - https://techimpactmakers.com/
[2] - https://80000hours.org/
Sorry for being harsh, but please grow up and stop letting other people manipulate you by making you feel guilty about climate, your relative wealth and other things. Focus on making your own life better, leave the current climate change craze (yes, craze) for politics to address.
It's almost like their own measure of success isn't the happiness and wellbeing of their citizens.
It's very liberating being out in a forest or desert, especially without phone signal. Fewer distractions, fewer possessions.
What's not 'OK' is that a snake-oil salesman/professional bullshitter who calls himself an 'Agile Consultant' has embedded himself in the organization. He's an all-talk arrogant blowhard with a savior complex centered around rescuing us from 'Waterfall'.
What's not 'OK' in my personal life: I've been having a difficult time attracting and maintaining the interest of intellectually/romantically compatible women in the brutally competitive SF Bay Area dating scene for late 20s/early 30s geeky dudes. That's my fault though... I really need to start working out, eating healthier, whiten teeth, dress better, get a life outside of work, buy a car, and learn how to _have fun_ again.
Waterfall is a shackle around your hands and feet keeping you from getting actual work done.
That being said, if you have an Agile consultant who is not able to convince you (because he doesn't sound like a nice person to work with) that sucks, and I hope you can find someone else.
I actually agree with the Scrum Guide [0], so my problem isn't with Agile; it's with this specific Agile Consultant who doesn't seem to "get" that process is often a proxy for talent/trust/respect and is just winging-it/BSing us all.
Imagine Bill Lumbergh from Office Space with a ton of two-day CS[a-Z]+ certifications who has never written a single line of code, designed a relational database, spec'ed out an API, etc. micromanaging every meeting while fundamentally misunderstanding the concepts of "collaboration" and "cross-functional teams." He knows what to talk about but has such a superficial understanding that he doesn't know why it's useful or when to apply concepts. Google 'Cargo Cult Agile'
[0] https://www.scrumguides.org/scrum-guide.html
My previous job (Waterfall) used such a heavy process that I was coding 10% of the time. Which is what I was hired to do. I'm a software engineer. Coding 10% of the time is unacceptable. But everyone working there had been doing that, some of them for 20+ years. It was like a prison sentence.
Luckily I was able to escape and got a fantastic job working at a small game studio that loosely uses Agile. The process is the last thing on my mind, and most days I don't even look at our Jira board. Maybe once or twice a week I look at it.
Though as I have said on here before no one can actually agree on what Aglie actually is, so maybe whatever you are doing is working for you, so that's good.
Anyway - keep working on yourself and what you have control over. With love, it all sucks and hurts until it doesn't.
The Bay Area is hell for straight men dating. If I ever ended up single again I would move.
My boss calls me stupid, incompetent, r*tarded, and "like you have part of your brain missing". He grills me on literally everything I do, like why I'm getting up from my desk or why I'm eating what I brought for lunch. He interrupts everything I say and puts me down in front of other people. He took away benefits he knew I enjoyed, like being able to take college courses for free in unrelated areas like music and ceramics, and he banned me alone from making conversation with my work friends, and moved my desk away from them to his office so he can watch everything I do. I'm underpaid ($40k/year) and therapy sessions are $150 each, so I don't have much saved up to just quit and search for new jobs full-time. He threatens to fire me almost every day. I'm not sure how I'll ever get out, this started about a year ago and I've been applying every day since but haven't found anything. It's hard for me to believe that another job won't be the same thing.
Sorry if that's oversharing, but working here is draining my soul.
edit: thanks for all the support everyone, it means a lot :)
Best of luck
You know you are being severely underpaid (I'm assuming you are from the US even though I'm not) so finding a place paying the same or a little better just to get away from this fucking horrible situation is worth every single second of effort.
I hope you find a job that isn't the same thing, they really do exist! Most of all, I hope it works out for you. Best of luck!
If they offer anything over 40k take it! You might even want to consider explaining you want to get out of your current job, and are willing to take less pay. The risk is that it could sound like you don't think you are a good fit.
I hope the interview goes well! Good luck!
In my country this sort of thing is illegal (work harassment).
I'm sure your HR department would also like to know they have a sadist working for them.
> It's hard for me to believe that another job won't be the same thing It won't be the same thing, because your current boss won't be there! Sounds like he's abusing you, and most likely your next boss won't behave the same.
Otherwise totally agree, especially the part about not giving up!
Maybe confused it with another post? I do that a lot around here... And there seems to be a lot of people today in similar situations.
Regardless, as others have mentioned, the environment they are dealing with is wrong and if HR isn't the solution perhaps legal action that others mentioned would be the way to go.
To the parent poster, I hope things get better soon for you. Stay strong and do your best to get out of there as soon as possible!
Most people also are too lazy for this level of sadism. Even if your next boss is a bigger asshole (which sounds completely unbelievable), it'd be more profitable for them to let you work rather than waste all that energy abusing you.
> I've been applying every day since but haven't found anything
That sounds godawful.
I was in a similar situation once. I got lucky because someone in our department, who was much stronger than I was, found a new job as a manager at a different company. Then a year later asked me to come work for him. That does not mean you have to wait to be lucky. Update your resume, don't try to wait until you have some new skill, just update it to wherever you are now, and start applying. Remember to ask for at least 80k.
Take a pay cut if you have to, just for a better work environment - even if you have to sell everything and move across the country. Ramen noodles and frozen vegetables are better than PTSD, and you'll find your way to a better paying job that better suits you.
And document these things that are happening. If your boss does any of this through email, save those emails.
Don't be afraid of a temporary career change. I've done it twice to save myself from burnout. We get overly attached to a narrative about ourselves as developers and become convinced that we need an unbroken ladder of the latest gee-wiz frameworks and libraries to stay in the game. Outside of FAANG its mostly not true.
But first, start telling that bully no in the most non-confrontational way you can. Take the most unreasonable demand and politely say in response "no I don't think I'm going to do that". You actually have nothing to lose.
If anything, wanting to adopt the latest and “greatest” is usually a sign of an inexperienced engineer.
If you’re at FAANG, especially at a team that is optimizing for throughput or scale, you’ll care more about design trade offs and performance, availability, and resiliency concerns as opposed to the latest framework. If anything, something tried and true that’s been out a long while and vetted out is a lesser risk than something released in the past year or two. In other words, maturity is an important factor (the weight may depend given your other considerations).
Also, remember that HR is there to protect the company, not you.
Anyway, I repeat, the abuse is what's stopping you from getting another job. The longer you stay (and a year is already an eternity in this kind of situation) the worse it will get. You are in a FUCKING EMERGENCY. It's not "save up money until I can afford to quit," it's "quit now[0] because I can't afford NOT to quit." Worry later about paying rent. People break leases all the time without repercussions. Again your state landlord-tenant law may vary. Do you have any supportive family or friends you can stay with? You should let them know what happened, move in with them and start healing from this, and returning to normal. And actively challenging and verifying everything you "learned" at this job.
What I'm advising might be extreme. There will be problems to overcome if you do it. But at least you won't have to overcome them with that monkey on your back. I'll monitor this thread in case you want to talk.
[0] Edit: Or make him fire you.
Make no mistake. The negative things that your boss is saying about you are almost certainly untrue.
Your boss has no right to say those things to you or to target you like that. In most situations, I would say talk to your boss's boss or HR, but it seems like the company you work for would really be of no help if they already let it get this bad.
Unfortunately, I don't know of any solid solutions. If I were you, I would look into unemployment compensation laws in your area and see if you could get unemployment benefits because you quit your job due to emotional distress.
If I were in your situation, I would quit the next time I walked into work.
To qualify for unemployment, you must be out of work through no fault of your own. If you quit your job voluntarily, without good cause, you won't be eligible for unemployment benefits. However, if you are forced out and/or have good cause to quit, you may still be eligible for benefits, depending on the circumstances.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/unemployment-benefit...
how is he behaving with others ? the same ?
is it a large company with possibility to change team so to avoid this dude ?
If I may, after long illness I thought I'd work simple min-wage jobs to get back into active life. Few things hit me: you get around the same amount of shit there. Bad bosses, bad colleagues. Imperfect working conditions. The difference is, even underpaid, you get more money.
Maybe that will help you swallow the bitter pill for a little while.
Best of luck
This is way more important than that paycheck.
You'll be fine, one way or another. This isn't really about your boss, it's about you and your self-respect and fear of change and stuff like that. (I'm not going to try to psychoanalyze you from across the internet but this much is clear from what you wrote.)
Also, fire your therapist, as you are clearly getting ripped off there.
Take your documentation to your therapist. Or to an employment lawyer that offers free or affordable initial consultations.
Do not stop applying for jobs with different companies.
I wouldn't go to HR. They work for the company, not for you. If they were doing their jobs effectively, you would not be suffering this abuse in the first place.
https://www.betterhelp.com/
yeah... that's not normal even a little bit. look for a new job. i have a hard time that any company that allows that kind of behavior is any better in any other department so get out ASAP!
You can get out of this and you will. Don't accept any mean thing your boss says about you. The opposite is true. If you feel like reaching out, you can find my contact details in my profile. No strings, and I'm not in a position to offer you a job, but if you feel like shooting the shit or having a banter.
Please take care of yourself.
I hope you find something soon. Look outside your area for jobs that pay for relocation if you have been having trouble finding jobs in your area, or look for remote jobs. There are tons of remote jobs right now, it's a huge industry that a lot of people don't consider.
P.S. - GO TO HR, THEY CAN HELP. Your boss should be fired tomorrow for that bullshit.
I moved to a new city for my current job with a referral from a friend. But I have struggled to make meaningful relationships here in the last year. This is also impacting my career as while there are a lot of jobs here, I have none of the networking.
Trying to work on a SaaS product I intend to launch, but I keep getting paralyzed by the scale of it all. I end up spending most of my time alone in my apartment.
You're not alone.
I have learned that single-person businesses often fail because we lack support and accountability. Consider finding someone to work with you. It might become a strong bond. Try meetup.com and "ProgrammingPals" on reddit.
Good luck.
I go to work every day When I'm home I hide into my digital life Work is 24/7/365 I have imposter syndrome, constantly, in everything. I was looking forward to "The book of mormon" for years when i finally got to see it the other night, i had to pretend to laugh. I'm an empty husk. I dont know that I feel anything much anymore.
As a greybeard, messing with computers has always been fun for me. Yet somehow, slowly the system has morphed it into a way to grind talented people into the ground with impossible deadlines and insane demands - to the point where we need websites like this.
But take one look at the traffic jams in LA and you'll see a much different story. All of those people had dreams, I'm sure a good amount of them never predicted they'd be stuck in a job they hate but there they are, wasting their lives away in a car that's sitting there polluting the environment on their way to a job that they hate.
My experience with computers has been the same. That and music. I make it a major point to watch for flags of that kind of environment with any company I speak to.
I'm a realist and not every day can be the most fun ever—sometimes there's a bit of a grind—but it shouldn't be the default status. I would lose too much if they stopped being fun. I've had it happen once before and it took several years to find that fun feeling again. Life's too short for that.
The impact of a product on its users is also important—does it have a positive or negative impact on their wellbeing?
A business that creates negative happiness should be viewed just like one that creates negative cashflow.
I'd also prefer less "product" worship—but that's probably more personal, and a different sub-topic.
Given the subject matter and I happened to be listening to Avicii at the time, there was a particular resonance.
From my perspective I'd say that programmers, in general, have it pretty good, as jobs go.
That doesn't mean a programmer is going to be happy. You just might not be happier doing anything else, either, and you might even dislike it more. Imagine punching a clock, which is practically unheard of in the western software industry...
Punching in and out isn't so bad (I've done it), it's probably gone out of fashion because then people would get paid for all the hours they work :)
What seems wrong nowadays is how exploited workers are (and not just programmers).
Probably, probably not. Maybe you know people who went on to became multibillionaires, whereas you're still tinkering and broke. I feel like I missed so, so many boats, and am in no position to catch the next one even if I could recognise it.
There is absolutely nothing about the incentives structure of for profit corporate business to care at all about the people actually doing the work, and in isolation they will do everything they can to eek every drop of productivity out of their employees they can.
Traditionally when switching jobs was less common employers would care more to maximize long term productivity over the short by not overworking people into mental illness but in todays regular turnover culture there is no long term incentives to bother with - put your employees to the grindstone and bleed them dry, then discard them for some new starry eyed ignorant youth.
Its the duty of society via collective bargaining (unions) or collective action (law) to reign in the predatory behavior of the profit motive but in the US (and thus most of the world due to US economic imperialism) that hasn't been happening or has been crippled for decades.
What is old is new again...
> Still more significant, authority over the freewheeling brotherhood of programmers is slipping into the paws of administrators and managers -- who try to make the work of the programmers planned, measurable, uniform, and faceless. [0]
[0]: http://www.softpanorama.org/Articles/Ershov/aesthetics_and_t...