I'm 55 but so far they haven't noticed! I guess HR can be as disfunctional with mandatory executions as they are when they present us with coding puzzles during the hiring process.
My first mentor was about the same age I am now, and still one of the best I ever had.
Staying sharp and engaged is tricky. It's easy for a person to become apathetic upon realizing how much churn and mis-spent energy there is in the industry, and when you're old and apathetic they assume that means it's time for the glue factory.
yep same. Golden handcuffs. I am working on my ski instructor certifications though, because you know being ski instruction is where are all the big money is ;)
I haven't left, but I'm thinking about it (despite still being early in my career lol). For me, it's the frustration of "nothing really matters." I value helping people, and building software actual people will use is one of the ways of doing that. Unfortunately, I have not had that opportunity. I've had to work on multiple projects that served no real purpose. It's extremely annoying.
I feel exactly the same. I’ve had a great career within web development and UX design, in pretty significant ways, but it’s still not fulfilling and I’ve lost purpose in it.
I’ve turned my UX interest towards city planning, and I focus more on nature, farming, exercising. Whatever energy I have left I spend on a few startups.
Also, I’ve gone through all the medical and psychological steps to be a helicopter pilot (old dream) and I’m applying to schools at this very moment.
Looking to make the switch more permanent soon, I still have a day job as frontend developer.
Careful with that, its one of "those jobs" that people flock to, but very hard to make a living in. A relative of mine did that, started rich, got his own helicopter, isn't rich anymore.
I have found myself with a similar issue. Haven't been in the industry for too long (been working for over 3 years), but the constant shitshow that is FE development is really taking a toll on me. No matter what you do, people keep changing things, sometimes for the better, other times for no particular reason other than to work on new shiny things. If what I am writing right now will be thrown out soon or rewritten anyway, then why bother? Same goes for some BE stuff, Go language seems to be the new hip thing to do stuff in, repeating the cycle once more.
I have begun trying to find things I truly care about as a countermeasure to this fatigue, so far it seems to be moving in the direction of just helping with repairing and refurbishing used computer hardware. I know how to do it for my own purposes, it's less mentally taxing, you get to save useful stuff from going to the landfill and you will also help cut down on consumption. It probably helps that the results are immediate (broken device -> working device), but going this route will have a minuscule impact also on a larger scale.
> but going this route will have a minuscule impact also on a larger scale.
I think people trick themselves into thinking that "changing the world" is their ticket to happiness. I think looking more locally is the key to happiness. Make your community better in some way and the results are immediate, and you get to be a part of something meaningful and present. If you become the local guy that fixes people's old computer hardware, then you'll be genuinely impacting people's lives for the better.
Same here. I start feeling anxious any time I think about it. I think we spend a lot of energy to serve commercial purposes. I am on a huge project, that uses a lot of modern technologies like AWS, Angular, etc... just to sell products.
It is boring. So like you said, I just try to find an opportunity that could help, but it's hard to find.
A reason why I could not leave my job right now, is that it's well payed. That's a high risk when you have a family with kids.
There is tons of help needed in Medical software, I made the jump to work in Radiation Oncology in 2014 after working at a large travel website and I do not regret it at all. The key is to find a company that maintains high security while still being "agile". That way the work is meaningful, and still similar in pace to working other programming jobs.
I find my work far more impactful, knowing millions of patients are being treated by my software in some way.
Look into working at a university, "research programmer" is the title to search for. It won't pay well, but the benefits are usually world-class, the environment is incredibly fulfilling, and you can take courses for free.
I haven't left but I'm trying to figure out something else to do with my life.
I've been doing customer projects for the last 8 years and it has been horrible experience. 99% of the things you're building are the same thing all over again (CRUD apps and various integrations) and pretty much 100% of the problems are caused by people acting stupid in different ways. It all just feels so pointless.
I wish I could come up with something else, but currently this is all I know. At least it all pays well. So golden handcuffs of sort I guess.
I've been on a pilot track in my former life, but got out due to bad eyesight, which made it risky to invest more. Now I've been a software developer for 20 years, but it doesn't make me happy. It's an ok job and provides food and shelter for my familiy, but I wish I could get back into aviation...
I know a family that did that. We're not really in touch any more but he was a tech worker in London in the mid 00s and she was in corporate purchasing or something.
A few years ago they upped and moved to Wales and operate a cattle farm, they also home-school their kids. Mostly now I see their ads for pasture-fed beef on facebook. They seem happy.
People romanticize all sorts of things, welding, nursing...
My grandfather was a farmer and died after an accident cleaning something with gasoline. Sounds dumb (I don't know the details) but farmers tend to have accidents like that because the whole job is working with dangerous machinery, chemicals, and animals, and a "family farmer" has an incentive to take risks someone working for a corporation doesn't.
I remember a news story about a farmer who passed out from breathing something toxic, so his oldest son goes to get him, he passes out too, his wife goes...the whole family died like that one after the other.
Well, most of them love the flying part itself. Problem is everything else. With software development it's just the opposite. The perks are great, but the actual work can be very boring...
> 100% of the problems are caused by people acting stupid in different ways
I moved from being employed to being a contractor/consultant (somewhere between the two). In the last 8 years I've worked with 8 or 9 clients and each one had serious issues (all bar one * , I would say). There were either individuals with power or small groups who were holding everyone else back by making consistently poor decisions, and there were upper managers too blind to see it or remove the offending parties, despite being informed by their staff what was going on.
It grinds you down, but I feel very similarly to you - it pays damn well and I can't see another way to achieve the lifestyle I want.
(* that one was a huuuuge corporate, and a department with incredibly low productivity and systemic issues with working practices. However they produced quality software to a schedule that was clearly OK with them, so .... that's OK I guess)
A mix of the fact that most companies I've worked for don't value their workers (they say they do, but their idea of valuing workers is buying fizzy drinks in the office and giving you "unlimited vacation" which just means they pressure you to come back after a few days and don't have to pay out accrued vacation time when you leave), and because they don't care about what they're building or how much it hurts the customer as long as they can increase their bottom line a few percentage points.
That being said, I haven't left but have been wanting to for ages. I'd be more interested in staying if I could find a unionized work place (when Delta cut salaries by 20%, the pilots union was able to negotiate for profit sharing after the hard times were over, when my company did that, they refuse to even discuss whether we'll ever be bumped back up to normal… even if we get paid well already it doesn't mean we shouldn't work together for better working conditions and more of a stake at the table) or a worker owned co-op to work for, but so far that hasn't materialized.
I got into facilities management. I get to create / manage construction projects for my "company" from planning all the way to final acceptance. In my area, the whole industry is quite behind technologically. Using tech has helped me excel.
I'm now ~7 years removed from active development and am finding it increasingly more difficult to find time to make a side project to show off while trying to raise a family. I miss development and keeping up with all the new stuff. It'd be hard for me to take the pay cut to return as a junior dev- so now I feel stuck.
My father-in-law retired from facilities management and he absolutely loved it. Worked for a major manufacturer and built factories and clean rooms around the world. Somehow lived in Vietnam for a year and didn't know what banh mi is but we all have blind spots.
I worked as a web developer for a couple of years after teaching myself ruby and javascript. I got into programming because I found it intellectually interesting, but unfortunately commercial programming is mostly mindnumbing. I got bored of creating CRUD apps over and over again for boring business applications. I considered upping my CS and maths skills to get more interesting jobs, but decided to pursue more of a nonprofit strategy/research path instead.
I now work for a small consultancy company doing research and designing funding programmes for charitable foundations. It's great because I get to do lots of research, writing, and thinking and have a positive impact on the world. No regrets, I'm very glad to have made the transition.
Still follow HN out of mild addiction and because there are interesting articles.
Can I ask what your job title is? This sounds like an area i'd be interested in but having only experience with tech i'm not sure of any tips or tricks to finding these hybrid jobs.
My route in was pretty idiosyncratic, and I think that's true of many people in these kinds of jobs. A more standard way to transition into this kind of research/consulting/policy work from tech might be go for jobs in technology or innovation policy. If you're in the UK I can point out some orgs that do that kind of work but in any country there will be various think tanks, policy consultancies, etc.
I'd be interested in hearing about tech and innovation policy orgs in the UK. Currently I think I either want to work in the civil service or in such an org. As you say, it would be nice to have a positive impact on the world.
I was tired, stressed and bored of tech so I learned how to sail, sold my stuff, bought a boat and sailed around in the Caribbean on a budget.
I didn't work for a year and now I'm working on contract 6 months a year and try to maintain my boat/sail the other 6 months
It gives me time to refuel and enjoy working in tech again.
Programming off and on for over 40 years. Left several times. Because nothing is as fucked up as I.T.
Did sales, consulting, several small businesses, and writing. Kept getting sucked back in. Because no one else digs as deep into things as us programmers. Became frustrated because we were always "skimming on the surface" of everything instead of deep diving into the cause instead of the effect. Besides, nothing turns me on more than watching something I built from nothing working for the first time. I haven't found that feeling anywhere else.
What do you do now?
Back into enterprise programming. Should be having a ball, but I'm more miserable than ever because of the total fuckedupness of management. Planning my next one-person business now.
Any regrets?
No. I had choices but picked programming. I often wonder how my life would have been different if I had become a mathematician, teacher, writer, artist, musician, or something else. But every time I talk to friends who went in those directions, I realized they had their own shit to deal with and I followed exactly the right path meant for me.
And how come you still follow HN?
Because my "Delete Programming from my DNA" button returns a stack overflow.
In all different companies that I have worked with, the finance department seemed to be consistently the most stressful, fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants part of the company. I am curious for people to tell the horror stories that they had to go thru.
My employer has no finance department, just an accounting department. The staff in the accounting department have their quirks at time, but in general are very easy to deal with, and grateful for help.
I left it before I really got started, and looking back at it now, I don't regret it. In my mid-twenties I decided I'd rather be an electrician. I don't sit on my ass all day. I get to meet new people, and see new places all the time. Some places that few ever get to see. Power plants, clock towers, police stations, homeless shelters, church attics. All sorts of stuff. Not all of it equally exciting, but a lot of it interesting. I get to build physical things that people will use for many many years into the future.
I get to play with lots of tech still, except it's more of the layer 1 stuff. Doing fiberoptical backhaul work, or installing DSL in peoples homes.
I'm still interested in both hardware and software. I run Gentoo Linux on my machines at home, and I have a DO VPS for "cloud things", but I'm glad it's not my job, because software issues can piss me off like no other thing is capable of.
In a parellell universe, this would've been me. Electrician seem to be the perfect "manual" labor - not a lot of heavy lifts, work with your head a lot, good mix of in- and outdoors.
This is anecdotal, but when I was younger and still figuring out what I wanted to do, I joined a 1 year course that was supposed to prepare people with HS diplomas and other people with practical jobs like electricians and such to study engineering in college. Surprisingly, the vast majority of the men in my class were electricians that had regretted their choice because it was such a dull job with a lot of menial labor, like crawling through very tight areas and otherwise being on your knees a lot and in awkward positions.
I always laugh whenever TechCrunch or someone runs a story about some hot shot university winning a programming competition because they implemented an algorithm the fastest or created yet another new app.
When in the real world, most programming jobs are making changes to a really large code base trying your hardest not to break other things. Not nearly as glamorous.
"That's great, kid. Now figure out why this build works on everyone else's machine but not yours. And then once the build works why the test suite throws a series of errors, one at a time, each new one appearing as you fix the last, when everyone else tells you it's green (though at some point you'll figure out they're all passing flags to disable parts of it, but forgot they're doing that). Oh we have some other things for you to do that are actual programming but you can't do those until you fix that. Oh and when you're halfway done Fred over there's gonna tell you you need to pull master because he just updated all the dependencies. Oh hey what do you know about code signing and app store distribution?"
You might be surprised by how strenuous electric work can be: pulling a cable bundle through a long conduit run, nailing staples at arm's length overhead, and finishing outlets at knee height.
Find your way into Industrial Electrical work if you can. You get a strong mix of tech and electrical, moreso than Residential, can't really say the comparison to Commercial work though...
My company (Automation & controls) is partnered with electricians for all the jobs we bid on. Having electricians that know wiring for specialized bus networks, how to do basic troubleshooting on control circuits and all that is amazing to have.
Alternatively, for those reading this in the tech side, the job is super engaging. I get to work on programming machines the size of my bedroom. I get to travel and see equally interesting locations (Dam spillways, Agricultural facilities inland and at port, underground mines, etc.). The fact that I get to get out of my office a few days a month is a big reason I've stuck with my job for as long as I have (7+ years now)
EDIT TO INCLUDE SOME PICTURES (Both the Cool and the Ugly):
I recently became kinda intrigued by PLCs and even consider buying one just to play with it (idk maybe it's the novelty of it) and the various programming languages for them and how they can be so different. What kind of education do you need to work on this kind of stuff?
I commented to another user, my background is a Software Systems Engineering degree but the majority of my coworkers are Electrical Engineers or some style of Electrical Technician.
As long as you understand digital logic well enough you'll be able to grasp the concepts. Having more formal education helps but is one of those fields that isn't strictly necessary unless you're working in a specialized sector. My personal take is that Software is still playing catch-up in this domain to the rest of the world but its coming. Up until the last 5 or 10 years the software was mostly just running the facilities but now integration to the business environments is becoming a bigger and bigger requirements of my clients.
I've mostly become hands off on the PLC/SCADA systems at my company now because the requirement for software utilities to function within the control system for data collection, trending, reporting, etc. has become so so much bigger. I have clients that want to use OCR to track shipping containers throughout their yard, clients who want me to integrate their invoicing systems to the operations so staff can see the scheduled daily loads coming, designing unmanned kiosks for customers to key through when coming to site and a whole lot more things.
Could you get started with Arduino? (Disclaimer: I don't know a lot about what PLCs actually do -- maybe that's too basic for you.)
Right now I'm trying to hack my treadmill with an Arduino unit so I can control it with software, and I'm learning a ton. Plus it's not a huge investment.
I had come across Building Arduino PLCs: The essential techniques you need to develop Arduino-based PLCs when i was looking for something similar a while ago. You might find it a good starting point.
I don't have a ton of PLC experience, but you really don't need much of an education to create basic PLC programs. I wouldn't personally recommend PLCs to anyone who enjoys programming, but I understand the appeal of trying one out.
The programming languages are all defined in IEC 61131-3, and you can more or less use them interchangeably. You can use structured text for (clunky) text-based programming, ladder logic if you want to feel like an electrician in the 70s, or functional block diagrams if you like flowcharts. They each have pros and cons, and being able to use the different languages (with different paradigms) in a single application is one of the more interesting things about PLC programming. There are probably good textbooks for this, but I don't know of any.
PLC programs execute in a constant loop (scan inputs, execute program, set outputs), so basic programming problems (e.g. delaying execution of some function) often require some re-thinking on PLCs. Having a basic understanding of how a PLC actually executes your code is pretty critical. Again, there are probably textbooks for this, but if you buy a physical PLC, its datasheet might also explain this.
You'll need to connect the PLC to some hardware for it to do anything meaningful, so having a basic knowledge of electronics would be useful. If it's just a hobby, you probably wouldn't need to know any more than you would if you were working with an Arduino.
There aren't that many major PLC vendors, so to get started, you could by an entry-level PLC from one of the big players (e.g. Allen-Bradley Micro800 series). Admittedly, I haven't looked at PLC options in 5+ years so there might be better options these days. Unfortunately, PLCs are pretty pricey, and even a small one will probably set you back a few hundred bucks. There are probably simulators available if you're just curious about PLC programming languages, but I don't have any experience there.
Heh, speaking of mouse traps, while working at an inland grain terminal I met a guy who was using arduinos hooked up to what's essentially a highly pressurized central vac system as a pest control system. Against the walls were small little "tunnels" the mice would run through, trigger an optical sensor then get sucked into the vac system at something like 500psi and their goop put into a holding tank for them to clean-out on routine checkups.
Incidentally, I am a Software Engineer that owns an Electrical Contracting business too and I would love to learn more about your company and your requirements for electrcians, what is the best way to contact someone to learn more?
Hmm, I apologize for not wanting to give away my explicit employer. We have like... 13 engineers/techs, rest of our staff are admin or panel builders so I'd pretty much be doxing myself to give it away.
I'll just say that my business was started by the owner in his farm's shop rebuilding/selling motors. When he expanded to doing controls they were like 3 employees and his friend was the electrician who they hired on. Since then the Electrician partnered with his Son-in-law and they train the majority of their guys right from their apprenticeship.
As much as I keep using "My company" throughout these posts I'm still just a guy in a programming/integrator role.
Likely just find a system integrator in your area and apply.
The guy who got me my job was a MS CS, my employer sought him out because they needed a guy for internal software projects. I did a hackathon with him and he hired me as his replacement when he moved to the gaming industry.
My degree is Software Systems Engineering, most of my coworkers are Electrical Engineers or some form of Electrical Diploma.
As long as you have a decent foundation in Networking and Digital Logic you'll be perfectly suited to program PLC/SCADA...
Can you explain what to expect from a "system integrator" company or job? I did a quick google for those in my areas and they seem all over the place, not one mentions "PLC/SCADA"?
So, "systems integration" job involves making systems interoperate as seamlessly as possible, by doing so adding new features, or reducing weaknesses, like for example vendor lock-in (sadly this is not always possible in industrial automation, see below). So the concept applies also to other sectors - and there are indeed non-industrial automation SIs - you might want to add terms like "PLC", "SCADA", "ICS" (industrial control systems), "industrial automation", "controls" to your search.
As for my own experiences in the (industrial automation) system integration industry, in Italy:
As I said before, and said elsewhere by TheCapn, vendor lock-in (in the form of employing equipment by one company, and their tooling, and their services, etc.) is a thing. But at the same time, your job is to make heterogenous systems interoperate! So most certainly you'll have to work not with your usual tools. Personally I have found that the most successful companies rely on some vendor (and their support, and their expertise), but are very open with working with, and know, the others. Obviously the more you can develop autonomously the better; it is a trade-off between freedom of action and access to more credible (branded, battle-tested, supported by big company etc.) solutions.
Knowing when to add one part to the system, or where you can just expand one of the already existing parts in order to accomplish the task is fundamental. Too often I have seen superflous parts added where it would have been enough to extend one of the existing parts a little (This is often due to vendor lock-in, you cannot work on some equipment, so you put another device by your vendor of choice).
Another thing I love about my job is the "Jack-of-all-trades" mindset required. Also human skills are important, especially here where the industry is mostly composed of little shops: sometimes you just have to understand enough to call the right specialist and contract that part of the job to them. I started as more of a computer person than a engineering one, but I managed to gain some expertise over time thanks to this knowledge transfer.
Now that more IT is entering the shop floor, many places are adopting some solutions (for diagnostics, data collection etc.) with more "computer" content than the past; for example all the predictive maintenance platforms big vendors are developing. Or you can concentrate on the "upper" levels, like SCADA, MES; of course working with these tools is not super CS rocket science, most of the time. You can start from positions more akin to programming, then work your way into process sensors technology, electrotechnics, etc. That's what I did.
Edit: System integrators as sibling says, I second that!
Controls aren't much different than other industries who rely on vendor product solutions either imo. You can talk to your SCADA vendor to see what their Historian / MES solution is and look at integrating that or develop a custom solution. Each obviously have pros/cons. What you might gain in rapid development using the Vendor provided solution your client will probably lose in steep licensing fees. Vendor solutions are typically set up in a way that anyone could configure them using only the manual and a few tutorials but giving any joe the ability to set up a system always has the drawback of the system being very "one size fits all" and customizing it to work in certain scenarios is difficult.
True! Hence my, "most of the time". I recently had to heavily customize a SCADA event engine with my plugins due to the particular requirements of the system; come to think of it, I might have as well rewritten the whole thing, but I had some "non-technological" limitations. :)
> Find your way into Industrial Electrical work if you can. You get a strong mix of tech and electrical, moreso than Residential, can't really say the comparison to Commercial work though...
Avoid residential electrical work if you are technology oriented! Yes, yes, home automation and all that, but that pales in comparison with industrial work. Commercial in theory has the same potential, but (at least here in Italy) the jobs are ..hm.. dodgy (very poor project management, tasks scattered across sub-sub-sub-contractors so nobody has really a clue of the global picture ..stuff like that)
I'm very interested in pivoting toward electrical engineering from computer engineering (for all the reasons mentioned above). Do you have any advice on how to do this? I don't even know where to begin, but I imagine there's a lot of certification and/or educational requirements.
"because software issues can piss me off like no other thing is capable of."
This in reverse is part of why I am a programmer; it can take two or three days before I'm really pissed at a software problem, but physical stuff really annoys me in mere minutes.
Why? Don't really know. I know a bit of it is that I know how to get myself into trouble in software and then usually get back out much better than I do in the real world, but even so, I had the patience in software to develop that and I really don't for real things.
Yes, it's much easier to hit Undo than it is to remove that bolt that you just snapped the head off, but you can't see because it's elbow deep in the engine bay.
On the other hand, a screw-up can have bigger consequences when your buggy code is used by thousands of users a day.
Also, with code, you generally don't lose the pieces when you disassemble something, and if you take a break, you can pick up right where you left off...
I got into software mostly for the money so I can fund some extended travel, and when I get back from that extended travel I don't plan to go back into software.
My BF's dad owns an electrical company, and I know BF will most likely end up working there - I've considered in the past joining him. This post is encouraging because it seems like I could get all the movement and outdoor time that I'm missing with coding, and also be building stuff that's useful to people.
Do you see many female electricians? I suspect there are few - any ideas as to why? Is there a lot of heavy/difficult physical labor that I would be unable to do?
I was working as a SWE for a large defense contractor on some pretty neat projects, and I felt like I was good at what I did. It was 40 hour weeks, good benefits, good pay, but I was bored and miserable. I lived in a town with no friends, and was so desperate for a change and some adventure, that I left the industry to join the military.
I took what I call a 12 year sabbatical from tech. I became an officer, went to pilot training, learned lots of new and useful skills, met lots of very good and interesting people, some of whom are my best friends.
Taking off from a short airfield in a blizzard, at night, wearing NVGs is an experience I don't care to re-live, but I'm glad I have something to talk about at parties.
A quote that affected me greatly during the time I was thinking about leaving: "if somebody wrote a book about your life, would anybody want to read it?"
After getting married (to somebody I met during one of my training courses), settling down, and having kids, a quieter, 40-hour-a-week lifestyle started to sound pretty good again. I had always been a hacker at heart, and realized that I was getting to the age where it was probably now-or-never if I wanted to re-enter the industry. So I went back into tech! It's better the 2nd time around.
I think the warning here is that most people will drop out of the pilot program and/or aren't qualified for it in the first place (eyesight, blood pressure, age, fitness to a lesser degree since it's "fixable" within 6 months). There's always army rotary, I guess.
True - but a lot of people self-disqualify because of rumors and urban legends. Make them tell you "no" if it's something you want. There are waivers for many medical issues, but if you don't ask you'll never get one.
Right. Don't you have to have a letter of recommendation from a Congressman or something? It always felt completely inaccessible to me, much more so than SOF, where you might get by on being fit alone.
It's probably a lot more accessible than you think.
The congressional recommendation is for entrance into the US Air Force Academy, which is a 4-year university.
If you already have your degree, you can apply for OTS (which is your initial officer training - I think it's 3 months long now) and a pilot slot directly.
Another option a lot of people overlook too is getting to pilot training via the Reserves or ANG. Those units can interview and hire you directly, and you'll go through the same training and do the same job with a lot less red tape.
I suspect someone joining the military after being in college and private industry has a higher chance of completing the pilot program than someone 18-20 years old which make up the bulk of the military recruits. (Assuming they both meet all physical requirements.)
I haven't left myself yet, but at almost-55 I know a fair number who have. Here's what I know of what their answers would be.
The first simply had another passion - travel. Work was just a way to pay for that. Eventually went to work for an agency, been there a long time and AFAICT couldn't be happier (despite being less well off materially). I've known a couple of others who fit this pattern. One left the industry to raise goats and make cheese instead.
Multiple have left to become full time parents. I hope they don't regret it, since this group includes my wife. ;)
Several others have left the industry but have not necessarily left tech. Some do light consulting. One's writing a book. Most are working on long-deferred personal tech projects.
I just about joined this third group before my savings took a 15% hit, so I might as well say why. I'm tired. I'm tired of the artificial deadlines, and processes that slow people down more than they improve quality, and the omnipresence of coworkers who exhibit every kind of bad engineering or interpersonal behavior (even though others are awesome). I want to enjoy making things again, and the moments when I can do that within the industry seem all too fleeting. Even the best of my dozen jobs stopped being fun, or just stopped. The thought of going through a modern tech interview process yet again so that I can do all the rest again just fills me with dread.
What is a full time parent? I remember as a kid that I was always encouraging my mom to take up hobbies so that she's leave me alone so I could get on with my own stuff. I can't imagine putting all your identity into being a parent. Kids grow up extremely fast.
I presume GP doesn't mean someone with no other identity, just someone who is doing it instead of a FT paid role. I could be a full-time plumber and still have an identity outside of plumbing
All the more reason to be a full-time parent. You get a return on your investment extremely fast. When you're old, you have adult kids that care about you, and hopefully grandchildren which are basically just children but free because you're not the primary caretaker anymore. All the fun with much less fuss.
> I'm tired. I'm tired of the artificial deadlines
I think the ephemeral nature of software really plays poorly with the artificial deadlines, and the artificial importance of some projects in general.
Eventually you recognize the pattern, and there's no logical way to justify it, so it's harder to motivate yourself. You know the deadline isn't real, and you know the software will be rewritten next year with some new technology. You may even be rewriting last years right now.
Tooling churn hurts here as well, because eventually after enough iterations, new tools are just in the way of getting real work done. You know it's not gaining you anything by putting in the effort to learn Toolchain X, because arbitrarily different Toolchain Y is about to become the new industry fad, and will make all that prior arbitrary knowledge pointless.
Some of my favourite years in software were when I worked at an eCommerce agency that served only one framework. Learning I invested directly impacted my work for the coming years. I began to master the tools, which feels amazing. I could also see the real world effect the software had. Sure, it was simple, selling products to people. But commerce is an interesting problem space, and a fundamental part of society, so it was neat to be a part of it and see real companies I worked with grow because of my software.
> the ephemeral nature of software [...] it's harder to motivate yourself
It's been a few years since I left the industry, and I'd be surprised if any of the code I wrote professionally hasn't been superseded by now. Even worse, plenty of it was scrapped before it was even released.
Of course, I knew this would be the case when I was writing it - that does indeed affect one's motivation.
I doubt if more than 25% of my work-hours as a developer have gone toward any kind of program or product that went on to provide enough benefit to have been worth the effort and expense. It feels like being one of the monkeys in some kind of million-monkeys Shakespeare project. Like the system just tries random shit and sometimes something works but mostly it just wastes everyone's time (lives).
> code I wrote professionally hasn't been superseded
Well, the state of New Jersey is looking for programmers to update COBOL programs that were written 50 years ago, so you might be underestimating the sheer power of inertia in software development...
The code I wrote in my first job out of college is still running in thousands of locations 25 years later. But then, it was Windows software for a particular industry, not a website. Most stuff I've written since then has been replaced or will be soon.
I can tell you that working with legacy turd (that will probably run for another decade or more) isn't necessarily much better.
Again the deadlines and lack of planning ahead bites. Look we just need this little feature now, it can't take long? And again, and again. You never get enough time to take a step back and re-evaluate design decisions (or, God forbid, plan ahead and do it right in the first place) and fix what wasn't done right. No, it's always this little feature that needs to be quickly hacked in, another branch, another special case, how it interacts with other past or future special cases is anyone's guess, and the code base that was already full of hastily hacked together barely-functional crap grows more and more poorly thought out crap. Tests? What tests? No tests, so if you dare go back and try quickly fix some poor design.. well, someone is eventually hopefully going to find out what you broke and give you a completely uninformative bug report. Updates? Well there's no ticket for that. And besides, something might break, because there are no tests. There's no ticket for tests.
Sometimes you might even wish that the whole thing would be discarded and done from scratch..
I prefer working with legacy turds over steaming hot new shit, but I have a hard time finding companies who will pay me for that work. Everybody wants the steaming hot new stuff.
This is why open source software at least is good -- it tends to have much longer lifetimes, so chances are decent that your code will still be running decades down the line (so long as you picked the right project).
For example, one of the open source projects that I contributed to most heavily, PyWikiBot, has been around for almost two decades now, and most of my contributions were made ~13-15 years ago, plus some minor maintenance since then, and most of those features I wrote are still in continuous use to this very day by me and many others. And that's just some random tooling library for Wikipedia stuff; imagine how much long-term impact your work would have if you were editing MediaWiki itself, or the Linux kernel, or gcc, or any number of other incredibly widely-used things.
I am in the same shoes and would add the reason of no pride or sometimes shame. Not only in the many marginal products I am forced to squeeze out rapidly and in parade but of belonging to this group of profession. Basically both stems in the pretentious design of incomplete products making people more miserable than successful or satisfied. Phones, 'smart' appliances, revolutionary technology, software and OSes promise the world and beyond (twice!) bringing tons of 'dream' (sometimes nightmare) functionality but f*k up even the most elementary function (repeatedly!) while being unreliable to the extent that it needs to be updated in the frequency of watering your plants, to no avail.
Despite the mounting problems the industry takes itself very seriously with infant obscure practices considered rock solid fundamentals and with robotic approach to human resources and processes. Talking to recruiters feels like they expect not thinking humans but custom programmed organic mechanisms able to type and can be judged by ticking checklists in a couple of minutes.
In seeking satisfaction in self and results I left several places for something assumedly better, sometimes leaping into unknown, but my bitterness just mounts with each position. Financial limits forces me to seek engagement in something I am experienced in but I am afraid my lethargy shines though of my smiley and optimistic face I wear for interviews. I have little trust in those sitting in front of me.
I hope I can figure out something better, meanwhile trying to make money for living.
You know, people worry about age discrimination a lot because there aren't a ton of older programmers around. But when the discussion comes up, people don't talk much about the reasons you describe.
Sure, bad programmers age out because they were never great at programming in the first place. But I would assume the HN crowd falls in the top half of competence because there are so many people here who seem smarter about programming than me. If you're good, you don't have to worry.
Maybe good programers age out because the technical side gets too repetitive, their jobs become more about politics, and they have enough money to change tracks later in life.
The changing nature of the job is definitely part of it. When you're on the steepest part of the learning curve, that makes up for a lot. I still learn plenty, but less than I used to. Instead, I spend a good deal of my time correcting mistakes made by those who hadn't learned yet. Mistakes happen, that's OK, but it's still less fun than learning new things myself. At my age/experience there's also an expectation that I'll do more "force multiplier" work - for me it's often fixing broken infrastructure - so that others can stay more productive with straight coding. Again, nothing wrong with it, but still less fun.
When it gets downright tiresome is when being the project janitor puts me in conflict with young "tech leads" who denigrate those contributions because they've only ever worked on that one project where other people took care of those things for them. It's like the difference between living in a college dorm where everything's taken care of for you, vs. having a house and kids and bills of your own. Being a strict individual contributor with no cares beyond the one piece of code in front of me is just a fond memory.
Unfortunately, few companies will hire someone with 30+ years' experience just to write code, even for a salary appropriate to that role. Companies want to pay those lower salaries not only for direct work product but also for growth potential. The worst part is, I know they're not wrong. The only way to do the kind of work I really enjoy, and only that work, is as a hobby.
You don't have to worry about keeping your current job, but getting a different one becomes a lot harder. Your 27 year-old interviewer might be thinking "You're my dads age, and my dad is crusty. No way you can wrap your head around lib-of-the-week.js"
> You don't have to worry about keeping your current job
Depends on the job. There are employers who recognize the value of somebody who has broad experience, and who can/will do things that are necessary but not fun. There are also employers who only measure hands-on-coding skills, and/or who insist that everyone should be on a "growth path" even if they're already at a higher level than most will reach. Good people don't have to worry at the first kind, and very much have to worry at the second.
I thought engineering enabled travel. I met countless "digital nomads" traveling the world, doing 20 hours of work a week at cafes. Making bank and getting to travel all they want.
In this particular case, it was adventure travel - savannahs in Africa, mountains in South America, icebergs in Antarctica. It was also 25 years ago. The "digital nomad" thing wasn't an option for this person.
I had a coworker at BigCo who would disappear for a month every summer. I wasn't paying attention to other PTO days through the year so I assumed that extra PTO for work anniversaries added up faster than I thought.
Turns out they were just taking a leave of absence, every year, to travel, and just eating the pay cut.
Perhaps very few make that year after year, but that's a totally achievable total compensation anywhere in the top half of the individual-contributor range if they get two good evals in one year. I work at one of those companies, and I'm sure I talk every day with people who have hit that level at least once.
> The thought of going through a modern tech interview process yet again so that I can do all the rest again just fills me with dread.
A couple years older than you. I was working a nice gig at a startup until November. Nice because the owners were nice, the coworkers were nice and it was an interesting embedded application involving renewable energy - so not the run-of-the-mill web app. They ran out of funding in November but there was the possibility (prior to covid-19) that they would get more funding so I didn't look around much hoping I could just go back to work for them when they get more funding and avoid having to interview again.
Of course, that's not likely to happen at this point given where the economy is at. And I still can't bear the thought of interviewing again. So I'm effectively out of tech at this point. If someone comes along and offers me a gig without the arduous interview process I'd take it, but otherwise, I think I'm done.
I keep getting laid off after criticizing upper management. I don't see any reason to regret my choices; they made their choices, too. I'm only here to share links, to show people how they are wrong, and to follow the Prime Directive.
Meetings took forever, goals and budgets limited my creativity, have been getting fat on business lunches and life is simply too short to spend it in the office. Couldn't breathe with recycled air.
I got cancer and when I got better I have never wanted to go back to the office.
I have spent last 10 years travelling the world, reading, learning to live on very little. Never looked back. Life is not a bliss but I am happier in general and satified with tradeoffs I have made.
I still do some projects for my own satisfaction. Still enjoy programming and learning new skills.
Well I am learning the old way - take a laptop and try something new, starting with small and then the project grows. Always enjoyed bottom up learning and discovery. I mostly do that in winter as in summer I prefer outdoors.
Edit: I have been blessed that despite two engineering degrees (financial math and electronic engineering) I have never worked as a programmer for living.
Since I have learned by trial and error 6502 assembler to hack strategy games on C-64 programming have always been unspoiled free time, pure fun activity for me. And 19 programming languages later it is still so.
I live in small summerhouse, eat simple food, cook, own old, small car that I use only when necessary. I prefer biking whenever possible. Buy most clothes and stuff used or heavily discounted. Buying used stuff is also good for the planet. Learnt a lot of DIY which is both cool and satifying.
I despise urban enviroment but have to visit the city cause I take care of older parents. So the summerhouse and living in the forrest is both a choice and a way to spend less on rent..
In a way I always wanted this but given the opportunity I had been chasing money, opportunities, new experiences, following the rat race etc. Now as this is over I feel less conflicted which makes me happier.
No, I haven't been working in the last ten years. For seven years I have been mostly traveling and drifting, mostly in SE Asia. Long story.
You need way, way less money then you think you do but the expectations adjustment process on the mental level is very slow. But of course it is good to have some savings.
In case anyone is curious, I've been able to live well on about $6000-8000 a year. I certainly eat like a king, since fruits and vegetables are amazingly cheap here. Otherwise my hobbies are inexpensive, e.g. exercise and sports, writing software for personal projects, making digital art, etc.
It's not for everyone, but I would have really struggled on a more conventional path. It's been my experience that working for someone else is really degrading, although I'm sure some companies are better than others.
I consider myself extremely lucky, as most of my neighbors here lead very difficult lives. In the poorer half of the world, life is extremely brutal and arduous for most people. It's very sad and I've seen things here that are shocking and appalling (and I am not faint of heart, after spending many years "hustling" in the US). The behavior of other expats here also leaves something to be desired, although at least it's not as bad as Thailand...
Are you worried the cost of living will increase over time and price you out? Singapore and Korea were once cheaper too though I suppose most countries aren't on that trajectory.
Fortunately now I'm able to make enough as a freelancer that I'll be able to increase my income if necessary, but that's almost entirely due to having a lot of time to spend on learning web and software development while I've been here so far.
Cambodia is developing rapidly, but somehow I doubt that the kleptocratic government here will manage to turn this place into the next Singapore or Korea :)
Just can't get any respect for it, I was trying to quit smoking, a friend who I did some projects with asked if I could do this boring thing in a language I don't know, 3 times I politely declined the job, got angry and lit a sigaret in my living room, so I took his make shift astray and threw it the garbage, he left after that saying I wasn't a team player, all the other contract I helped to secure he took with him saying he'll find some other autist.
I'm currently on month 18 of a sabbatical. I tried to bootstrap a small lifestyle business with my own money and that didn't pan out.
I really don't want to return to tech, because it simply is not my passion. I'm going to try to start an aerospace startup instead, which is my passion. Perfect timing right?
Yes the timing is good, the Artemis program is heating up and needs to disperse grants for the 2024 moon missions. You will have a much better supply of labor to choose from than our previous unemployment rate. Capital is cheap right now and banks are still lending. Aerospace is a long-term investment and you'll deliver a product when the economy is back.
I realized that I was only a so-so programmer. the real ninjas were so passionate and knowledgeable; I was only successful because of brute force and overworking. I moved on to a career in the law - which is a much more natural fit for me.
> realized that I was only a so-so programmer. the real ninjas were so passionate and knowledgeable; I was only successful because of brute force and overworking.
I think I'm starting to feel this. I'm neither talented nor educated enough to work on things I truly find interesting and my ability to learn feels like its completely flatlined these days. Unfortunately, I feel trapped in what I do rn, because it's really one of the only decently paying careers I can get.
As I age I feel the opposite. I can't work out whats going on as quickly as I used to but when I do I am far more inclined to refactor stuff so that its easy for the next person.
As you age, you just can't bring the same focus and stamina to bear on a project - which is ok, because experience, wisdom, and efficiency can actually make things easier.
I'm a lawyer, but talented paralegals (typically just a college degree) can do very well. Especially ones who can master ediscovery - the production of documents stored electronically.
There's not the 24H grind with programming to a deadline. There can be long days, especially when preparing for a court appearance or a trial, and law firms notoriously work their associates very long hours to cover their significant pay checks. Attorneys at firms bill by the hour, so there's an incentive to work lots and lots of hours to be at the top law firms - but there are lots of more human jobs at companies as in-house counsel, or with the government or with a non profit or NGO.
I left (mostly) when tech became a tool for greed and scummery. Was asked too many times to participate in completely legal yet morally abhorrent actions.
Also saw that programmers were starting to be treated like factory workers where attendance and metrics like keystrokes per minute were more important than good well written and documented code.
The final straw however was "move fast and break things". Basically pump out change for the sake of change and let the end user do quality control.
One could argue that app stores have also played a significant role, basically taking thirty percent gross while depriving the developer of direct contact with the end user.
Oh, exactly this! First I get lectured about how delivering a solution fast is more important than getting the technical details right... and then I get assigned for on-call duty. Because "move fast" means someone else gets a bonus, and "break things" means I have to fix the bugs over the weekend.
> Also saw that programmers were starting to be treated like factory workers where attendance and metrics like keystrokes per minute were more important than good well written and documented code.
This is why I quit being a software engineer as well (I didn't leave the tech industry altogether tho, just switched career trajectories a bit).
I spent years trying to talk some sense into the people pushing that and trying to explain (it's as much art as science) but in the end the Scrum people won. So, I moved over to devops and consulting where most of the time I'm helping people with stuff, and the long death-march sprints to satisfy an arbitrarily deadline that nobody cared about until it got put on paper two weeks ago, and still doesn't matter except it will turn some spreadsheet field red that draws the Eye of Sauron from higher ups, are mostly over now. I get my coding fix by working on open source projects, and it's way more fulfilling.
I left after over 25 years. I love programming and love working with Linux, but the jobs always came down to "help us steal peoples personal information so we can slam them with spam for products the neither want or need." It was unfulfilling. I went back to school and got an MA in history. I teach humanities though I still teach a couple of programming classes. I miss it a little. I would go back in a heartbeat for the right position, but I am through getting mauled in tech interviews which turned into combat trivial pursuit. I love technology and I still create applications mostly for myself or to help automate my school. I get new ideas from HN.
> I am through getting mauled in tech interviews which turned into combat trivial pursuit. I love technology and I still create applications mostly for myself or to help automate my school.
This. Something has definitely changed in the last ~10 to 20 years since the end of the dotcom era of interviewing in the tech industry. Before it was as simple as reading the AUTHORS file in an open-source project like Linux to vouch for a programmer applying to somewhere like Red Hat or Mozilla. But now we are expecting them to write a proof of quicksort's worst-case runtime complexity or to explain the Diffie-Helman public key exchange mathematically on a whiteboard to "see how you think" and "prove programmer ability" which is unnecessarily academic and they either don't use it directly or search on Google for it anyway.
That's just the onsite interviews, pre-interviews are riddled with Leetcode, Hackerrank and Codility tests which can be cheated or the solution can be found on Google. What a shame that these flawed tests still exist.
Interviewing is going to drive me from the industry. I'm skilled - I've consistently provided high value at my jobs - but I'm not formally trained (don't have a CS degree) and I don't have the time anymore to sit around grinding leetcode just so I can land my next gig.
That or waste a day or two of your weekend on some trivial app to be nitpicked on some nonsense not in the spec.
I had a go at our manager recently after letting two people do our tech test then say they were too inexperienced. We could have worked that out before wasting their time.
the #1 reason i think about leaving is due to the interviews as well (also not formally trained). im about 6 years in and its just getting worse and worse. the thought of spending my free time studying for interviews is so miserable. on top of that, i realized recently i have a lot of childhood trauma and interviews are very triggering due to the often combative, critical nature.
it's kinda depressing in a way, because coding was at first, something that pulled me out of the slump i was in due to a shitty upbringing. i really like writing code, but the industry sure does know how to suck all the fun out of it.
I've been thinking of leaving for the past several years. But as the primary income for my house hold, I need the higher pay of tech.
I've gone to a number of career counselors. Trying to find something else to do. I have a number of other passions/interests. Just not sure how to turn them into a career? How did other people determine an alternate career to get into?
Ive not left yet but have all but resigned myself to a different field, likely EMS or nursing. Eight years in (health and ed tech) and its become project management with little actual engineering work. Im only 27 but I regret waiting this long. I started to see signs that my interest was waning a few years ago and figured I just needed a change of scenery...three changes later and I think the message is clear.
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[ 2.3 ms ] story [ 423 ms ] threadStaying sharp and engaged is tricky. It's easy for a person to become apathetic upon realizing how much churn and mis-spent energy there is in the industry, and when you're old and apathetic they assume that means it's time for the glue factory.
I feel exactly the same. I’ve had a great career within web development and UX design, in pretty significant ways, but it’s still not fulfilling and I’ve lost purpose in it.
I’ve turned my UX interest towards city planning, and I focus more on nature, farming, exercising. Whatever energy I have left I spend on a few startups.
Also, I’ve gone through all the medical and psychological steps to be a helicopter pilot (old dream) and I’m applying to schools at this very moment.
Looking to make the switch more permanent soon, I still have a day job as frontend developer.
Purpose and intention is all.
Careful with that, its one of "those jobs" that people flock to, but very hard to make a living in. A relative of mine did that, started rich, got his own helicopter, isn't rich anymore.
I have begun trying to find things I truly care about as a countermeasure to this fatigue, so far it seems to be moving in the direction of just helping with repairing and refurbishing used computer hardware. I know how to do it for my own purposes, it's less mentally taxing, you get to save useful stuff from going to the landfill and you will also help cut down on consumption. It probably helps that the results are immediate (broken device -> working device), but going this route will have a minuscule impact also on a larger scale.
I think people trick themselves into thinking that "changing the world" is their ticket to happiness. I think looking more locally is the key to happiness. Make your community better in some way and the results are immediate, and you get to be a part of something meaningful and present. If you become the local guy that fixes people's old computer hardware, then you'll be genuinely impacting people's lives for the better.
It is boring. So like you said, I just try to find an opportunity that could help, but it's hard to find.
A reason why I could not leave my job right now, is that it's well payed. That's a high risk when you have a family with kids.
I find my work far more impactful, knowing millions of patients are being treated by my software in some way.
At a startup, you get to have a large impact on the company so it definitely can feel like you're making a difference.
I've been doing customer projects for the last 8 years and it has been horrible experience. 99% of the things you're building are the same thing all over again (CRUD apps and various integrations) and pretty much 100% of the problems are caused by people acting stupid in different ways. It all just feels so pointless.
I wish I could come up with something else, but currently this is all I know. At least it all pays well. So golden handcuffs of sort I guess.
It's the same with how a lot of tech folks idolize farming. In reality it's a tough job with long hours and cold weather.
A few years ago they upped and moved to Wales and operate a cattle farm, they also home-school their kids. Mostly now I see their ads for pasture-fed beef on facebook. They seem happy.
My grandfather was a farmer and died after an accident cleaning something with gasoline. Sounds dumb (I don't know the details) but farmers tend to have accidents like that because the whole job is working with dangerous machinery, chemicals, and animals, and a "family farmer" has an incentive to take risks someone working for a corporation doesn't.
I remember a news story about a farmer who passed out from breathing something toxic, so his oldest son goes to get him, he passes out too, his wife goes...the whole family died like that one after the other.
Software Development can be mundane and repetitive. Stupid users cause most of my headaches but I use my hobbies as an outlet.
Might need to tailor your resume a bit but if you like coding it doesn't sound like you're at the point where it's time to leave everything.
I moved from being employed to being a contractor/consultant (somewhere between the two). In the last 8 years I've worked with 8 or 9 clients and each one had serious issues (all bar one * , I would say). There were either individuals with power or small groups who were holding everyone else back by making consistently poor decisions, and there were upper managers too blind to see it or remove the offending parties, despite being informed by their staff what was going on.
It grinds you down, but I feel very similarly to you - it pays damn well and I can't see another way to achieve the lifestyle I want.
(* that one was a huuuuge corporate, and a department with incredibly low productivity and systemic issues with working practices. However they produced quality software to a schedule that was clearly OK with them, so .... that's OK I guess)
That being said, I haven't left but have been wanting to for ages. I'd be more interested in staying if I could find a unionized work place (when Delta cut salaries by 20%, the pilots union was able to negotiate for profit sharing after the hard times were over, when my company did that, they refuse to even discuss whether we'll ever be bumped back up to normal… even if we get paid well already it doesn't mean we shouldn't work together for better working conditions and more of a stake at the table) or a worker owned co-op to work for, but so far that hasn't materialized.
I'm now ~7 years removed from active development and am finding it increasingly more difficult to find time to make a side project to show off while trying to raise a family. I miss development and keeping up with all the new stuff. It'd be hard for me to take the pay cut to return as a junior dev- so now I feel stuck.
I now work for a small consultancy company doing research and designing funding programmes for charitable foundations. It's great because I get to do lots of research, writing, and thinking and have a positive impact on the world. No regrets, I'm very glad to have made the transition.
Still follow HN out of mild addiction and because there are interesting articles.
My route in was pretty idiosyncratic, and I think that's true of many people in these kinds of jobs. A more standard way to transition into this kind of research/consulting/policy work from tech might be go for jobs in technology or innovation policy. If you're in the UK I can point out some orgs that do that kind of work but in any country there will be various think tanks, policy consultancies, etc.
I didn't work for a year and now I'm working on contract 6 months a year and try to maintain my boat/sail the other 6 months It gives me time to refuel and enjoy working in tech again.
Programming off and on for over 40 years. Left several times. Because nothing is as fucked up as I.T.
Did sales, consulting, several small businesses, and writing. Kept getting sucked back in. Because no one else digs as deep into things as us programmers. Became frustrated because we were always "skimming on the surface" of everything instead of deep diving into the cause instead of the effect. Besides, nothing turns me on more than watching something I built from nothing working for the first time. I haven't found that feeling anywhere else.
What do you do now?
Back into enterprise programming. Should be having a ball, but I'm more miserable than ever because of the total fuckedupness of management. Planning my next one-person business now.
Any regrets?
No. I had choices but picked programming. I often wonder how my life would have been different if I had become a mathematician, teacher, writer, artist, musician, or something else. But every time I talk to friends who went in those directions, I realized they had their own shit to deal with and I followed exactly the right path meant for me.
And how come you still follow HN?
Because my "Delete Programming from my DNA" button returns a stack overflow.
In all different companies that I have worked with, the finance department seemed to be consistently the most stressful, fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants part of the company. I am curious for people to tell the horror stories that they had to go thru.
Should I do an Ask HN on the finance dept?
(edited formatting)
I get to play with lots of tech still, except it's more of the layer 1 stuff. Doing fiberoptical backhaul work, or installing DSL in peoples homes.
I'm still interested in both hardware and software. I run Gentoo Linux on my machines at home, and I have a DO VPS for "cloud things", but I'm glad it's not my job, because software issues can piss me off like no other thing is capable of.
Ps. Love the username/post combo.
I always laugh whenever TechCrunch or someone runs a story about some hot shot university winning a programming competition because they implemented an algorithm the fastest or created yet another new app.
When in the real world, most programming jobs are making changes to a really large code base trying your hardest not to break other things. Not nearly as glamorous.
"That's great, kid. Now figure out why this build works on everyone else's machine but not yours. And then once the build works why the test suite throws a series of errors, one at a time, each new one appearing as you fix the last, when everyone else tells you it's green (though at some point you'll figure out they're all passing flags to disable parts of it, but forgot they're doing that). Oh we have some other things for you to do that are actual programming but you can't do those until you fix that. Oh and when you're halfway done Fred over there's gonna tell you you need to pull master because he just updated all the dependencies. Oh hey what do you know about code signing and app store distribution?"
My company (Automation & controls) is partnered with electricians for all the jobs we bid on. Having electricians that know wiring for specialized bus networks, how to do basic troubleshooting on control circuits and all that is amazing to have.
Alternatively, for those reading this in the tech side, the job is super engaging. I get to work on programming machines the size of my bedroom. I get to travel and see equally interesting locations (Dam spillways, Agricultural facilities inland and at port, underground mines, etc.). The fact that I get to get out of my office a few days a month is a big reason I've stuck with my job for as long as I have (7+ years now)
EDIT TO INCLUDE SOME PICTURES (Both the Cool and the Ugly):
https://imgur.com/5uOWDGB https://imgur.com/oJozMBr https://imgur.com/95HSxlx https://imgur.com/yhrPUC3
As long as you understand digital logic well enough you'll be able to grasp the concepts. Having more formal education helps but is one of those fields that isn't strictly necessary unless you're working in a specialized sector. My personal take is that Software is still playing catch-up in this domain to the rest of the world but its coming. Up until the last 5 or 10 years the software was mostly just running the facilities but now integration to the business environments is becoming a bigger and bigger requirements of my clients.
I've mostly become hands off on the PLC/SCADA systems at my company now because the requirement for software utilities to function within the control system for data collection, trending, reporting, etc. has become so so much bigger. I have clients that want to use OCR to track shipping containers throughout their yard, clients who want me to integrate their invoicing systems to the operations so staff can see the scheduled daily loads coming, designing unmanned kiosks for customers to key through when coming to site and a whole lot more things.
Right now I'm trying to hack my treadmill with an Arduino unit so I can control it with software, and I'm learning a ton. Plus it's not a huge investment.
The programming languages are all defined in IEC 61131-3, and you can more or less use them interchangeably. You can use structured text for (clunky) text-based programming, ladder logic if you want to feel like an electrician in the 70s, or functional block diagrams if you like flowcharts. They each have pros and cons, and being able to use the different languages (with different paradigms) in a single application is one of the more interesting things about PLC programming. There are probably good textbooks for this, but I don't know of any.
PLC programs execute in a constant loop (scan inputs, execute program, set outputs), so basic programming problems (e.g. delaying execution of some function) often require some re-thinking on PLCs. Having a basic understanding of how a PLC actually executes your code is pretty critical. Again, there are probably textbooks for this, but if you buy a physical PLC, its datasheet might also explain this.
You'll need to connect the PLC to some hardware for it to do anything meaningful, so having a basic knowledge of electronics would be useful. If it's just a hobby, you probably wouldn't need to know any more than you would if you were working with an Arduino.
There aren't that many major PLC vendors, so to get started, you could by an entry-level PLC from one of the big players (e.g. Allen-Bradley Micro800 series). Admittedly, I haven't looked at PLC options in 5+ years so there might be better options these days. Unfortunately, PLCs are pretty pricey, and even a small one will probably set you back a few hundred bucks. There are probably simulators available if you're just curious about PLC programming languages, but I don't have any experience there.
I'll just say that my business was started by the owner in his farm's shop rebuilding/selling motors. When he expanded to doing controls they were like 3 employees and his friend was the electrician who they hired on. Since then the Electrician partnered with his Son-in-law and they train the majority of their guys right from their apprenticeship.
As much as I keep using "My company" throughout these posts I'm still just a guy in a programming/integrator role.
The guy who got me my job was a MS CS, my employer sought him out because they needed a guy for internal software projects. I did a hackathon with him and he hired me as his replacement when he moved to the gaming industry.
My degree is Software Systems Engineering, most of my coworkers are Electrical Engineers or some form of Electrical Diploma.
As long as you have a decent foundation in Networking and Digital Logic you'll be perfectly suited to program PLC/SCADA...
So, "systems integration" job involves making systems interoperate as seamlessly as possible, by doing so adding new features, or reducing weaknesses, like for example vendor lock-in (sadly this is not always possible in industrial automation, see below). So the concept applies also to other sectors - and there are indeed non-industrial automation SIs - you might want to add terms like "PLC", "SCADA", "ICS" (industrial control systems), "industrial automation", "controls" to your search.
As for my own experiences in the (industrial automation) system integration industry, in Italy:
As I said before, and said elsewhere by TheCapn, vendor lock-in (in the form of employing equipment by one company, and their tooling, and their services, etc.) is a thing. But at the same time, your job is to make heterogenous systems interoperate! So most certainly you'll have to work not with your usual tools. Personally I have found that the most successful companies rely on some vendor (and their support, and their expertise), but are very open with working with, and know, the others. Obviously the more you can develop autonomously the better; it is a trade-off between freedom of action and access to more credible (branded, battle-tested, supported by big company etc.) solutions.
Knowing when to add one part to the system, or where you can just expand one of the already existing parts in order to accomplish the task is fundamental. Too often I have seen superflous parts added where it would have been enough to extend one of the existing parts a little (This is often due to vendor lock-in, you cannot work on some equipment, so you put another device by your vendor of choice).
Another thing I love about my job is the "Jack-of-all-trades" mindset required. Also human skills are important, especially here where the industry is mostly composed of little shops: sometimes you just have to understand enough to call the right specialist and contract that part of the job to them. I started as more of a computer person than a engineering one, but I managed to gain some expertise over time thanks to this knowledge transfer.
Edit: System integrators as sibling says, I second that!
Especially
> Find your way into Industrial Electrical work if you can. You get a strong mix of tech and electrical, moreso than Residential, can't really say the comparison to Commercial work though...
Avoid residential electrical work if you are technology oriented! Yes, yes, home automation and all that, but that pales in comparison with industrial work. Commercial in theory has the same potential, but (at least here in Italy) the jobs are ..hm.. dodgy (very poor project management, tasks scattered across sub-sub-sub-contractors so nobody has really a clue of the global picture ..stuff like that)
This in reverse is part of why I am a programmer; it can take two or three days before I'm really pissed at a software problem, but physical stuff really annoys me in mere minutes.
Why? Don't really know. I know a bit of it is that I know how to get myself into trouble in software and then usually get back out much better than I do in the real world, but even so, I had the patience in software to develop that and I really don't for real things.
On the other hand, a screw-up can have bigger consequences when your buggy code is used by thousands of users a day.
My BF's dad owns an electrical company, and I know BF will most likely end up working there - I've considered in the past joining him. This post is encouraging because it seems like I could get all the movement and outdoor time that I'm missing with coding, and also be building stuff that's useful to people.
Do you see many female electricians? I suspect there are few - any ideas as to why? Is there a lot of heavy/difficult physical labor that I would be unable to do?
I took what I call a 12 year sabbatical from tech. I became an officer, went to pilot training, learned lots of new and useful skills, met lots of very good and interesting people, some of whom are my best friends.
Taking off from a short airfield in a blizzard, at night, wearing NVGs is an experience I don't care to re-live, but I'm glad I have something to talk about at parties.
A quote that affected me greatly during the time I was thinking about leaving: "if somebody wrote a book about your life, would anybody want to read it?"
After getting married (to somebody I met during one of my training courses), settling down, and having kids, a quieter, 40-hour-a-week lifestyle started to sound pretty good again. I had always been a hacker at heart, and realized that I was getting to the age where it was probably now-or-never if I wanted to re-enter the industry. So I went back into tech! It's better the 2nd time around.
Zero regrets.
The congressional recommendation is for entrance into the US Air Force Academy, which is a 4-year university.
If you already have your degree, you can apply for OTS (which is your initial officer training - I think it's 3 months long now) and a pilot slot directly.
Another option a lot of people overlook too is getting to pilot training via the Reserves or ANG. Those units can interview and hire you directly, and you'll go through the same training and do the same job with a lot less red tape.
If you don't let yourself explore, you're not going to be happy long term. (Eventually, you will hit that fabled mid-life identity crisis.)
Perhaps it's less that any one situation is preferable, but more that you need variety.
The first simply had another passion - travel. Work was just a way to pay for that. Eventually went to work for an agency, been there a long time and AFAICT couldn't be happier (despite being less well off materially). I've known a couple of others who fit this pattern. One left the industry to raise goats and make cheese instead.
Multiple have left to become full time parents. I hope they don't regret it, since this group includes my wife. ;)
Several others have left the industry but have not necessarily left tech. Some do light consulting. One's writing a book. Most are working on long-deferred personal tech projects.
I just about joined this third group before my savings took a 15% hit, so I might as well say why. I'm tired. I'm tired of the artificial deadlines, and processes that slow people down more than they improve quality, and the omnipresence of coworkers who exhibit every kind of bad engineering or interpersonal behavior (even though others are awesome). I want to enjoy making things again, and the moments when I can do that within the industry seem all too fleeting. Even the best of my dozen jobs stopped being fun, or just stopped. The thought of going through a modern tech interview process yet again so that I can do all the rest again just fills me with dread.
If a couple decides they want four kids, the numbers can work out, for 10 years or so - especially if childcare is expensive.
I think the ephemeral nature of software really plays poorly with the artificial deadlines, and the artificial importance of some projects in general.
Eventually you recognize the pattern, and there's no logical way to justify it, so it's harder to motivate yourself. You know the deadline isn't real, and you know the software will be rewritten next year with some new technology. You may even be rewriting last years right now.
Tooling churn hurts here as well, because eventually after enough iterations, new tools are just in the way of getting real work done. You know it's not gaining you anything by putting in the effort to learn Toolchain X, because arbitrarily different Toolchain Y is about to become the new industry fad, and will make all that prior arbitrary knowledge pointless.
Some of my favourite years in software were when I worked at an eCommerce agency that served only one framework. Learning I invested directly impacted my work for the coming years. I began to master the tools, which feels amazing. I could also see the real world effect the software had. Sure, it was simple, selling products to people. But commerce is an interesting problem space, and a fundamental part of society, so it was neat to be a part of it and see real companies I worked with grow because of my software.
It's been a few years since I left the industry, and I'd be surprised if any of the code I wrote professionally hasn't been superseded by now. Even worse, plenty of it was scrapped before it was even released.
Of course, I knew this would be the case when I was writing it - that does indeed affect one's motivation.
Well, the state of New Jersey is looking for programmers to update COBOL programs that were written 50 years ago, so you might be underestimating the sheer power of inertia in software development...
Again the deadlines and lack of planning ahead bites. Look we just need this little feature now, it can't take long? And again, and again. You never get enough time to take a step back and re-evaluate design decisions (or, God forbid, plan ahead and do it right in the first place) and fix what wasn't done right. No, it's always this little feature that needs to be quickly hacked in, another branch, another special case, how it interacts with other past or future special cases is anyone's guess, and the code base that was already full of hastily hacked together barely-functional crap grows more and more poorly thought out crap. Tests? What tests? No tests, so if you dare go back and try quickly fix some poor design.. well, someone is eventually hopefully going to find out what you broke and give you a completely uninformative bug report. Updates? Well there's no ticket for that. And besides, something might break, because there are no tests. There's no ticket for tests.
Sometimes you might even wish that the whole thing would be discarded and done from scratch..
For example, one of the open source projects that I contributed to most heavily, PyWikiBot, has been around for almost two decades now, and most of my contributions were made ~13-15 years ago, plus some minor maintenance since then, and most of those features I wrote are still in continuous use to this very day by me and many others. And that's just some random tooling library for Wikipedia stuff; imagine how much long-term impact your work would have if you were editing MediaWiki itself, or the Linux kernel, or gcc, or any number of other incredibly widely-used things.
Sure, bad programmers age out because they were never great at programming in the first place. But I would assume the HN crowd falls in the top half of competence because there are so many people here who seem smarter about programming than me. If you're good, you don't have to worry.
Maybe good programers age out because the technical side gets too repetitive, their jobs become more about politics, and they have enough money to change tracks later in life.
Which people you're talking about? The survivors who are still working in the field? Or those who had heart attacks at their desks at 50?
When it gets downright tiresome is when being the project janitor puts me in conflict with young "tech leads" who denigrate those contributions because they've only ever worked on that one project where other people took care of those things for them. It's like the difference between living in a college dorm where everything's taken care of for you, vs. having a house and kids and bills of your own. Being a strict individual contributor with no cares beyond the one piece of code in front of me is just a fond memory.
Unfortunately, few companies will hire someone with 30+ years' experience just to write code, even for a salary appropriate to that role. Companies want to pay those lower salaries not only for direct work product but also for growth potential. The worst part is, I know they're not wrong. The only way to do the kind of work I really enjoy, and only that work, is as a hobby.
You don't have to worry about keeping your current job, but getting a different one becomes a lot harder. Your 27 year-old interviewer might be thinking "You're my dads age, and my dad is crusty. No way you can wrap your head around lib-of-the-week.js"
Depends on the job. There are employers who recognize the value of somebody who has broad experience, and who can/will do things that are necessary but not fun. There are also employers who only measure hands-on-coding skills, and/or who insist that everyone should be on a "growth path" even if they're already at a higher level than most will reach. Good people don't have to worry at the first kind, and very much have to worry at the second.
I thought engineering enabled travel. I met countless "digital nomads" traveling the world, doing 20 hours of work a week at cafes. Making bank and getting to travel all they want.
Turns out they were just taking a leave of absence, every year, to travel, and just eating the pay cut.
A couple years older than you. I was working a nice gig at a startup until November. Nice because the owners were nice, the coworkers were nice and it was an interesting embedded application involving renewable energy - so not the run-of-the-mill web app. They ran out of funding in November but there was the possibility (prior to covid-19) that they would get more funding so I didn't look around much hoping I could just go back to work for them when they get more funding and avoid having to interview again.
Of course, that's not likely to happen at this point given where the economy is at. And I still can't bear the thought of interviewing again. So I'm effectively out of tech at this point. If someone comes along and offers me a gig without the arduous interview process I'd take it, but otherwise, I think I'm done.
OK nice it's not just me!
I got cancer and when I got better I have never wanted to go back to the office.
I have spent last 10 years travelling the world, reading, learning to live on very little. Never looked back. Life is not a bliss but I am happier in general and satified with tradeoffs I have made.
I still do some projects for my own satisfaction. Still enjoy programming and learning new skills.
Edit: I have been blessed that despite two engineering degrees (financial math and electronic engineering) I have never worked as a programmer for living.
Since I have learned by trial and error 6502 assembler to hack strategy games on C-64 programming have always been unspoiled free time, pure fun activity for me. And 19 programming languages later it is still so.
I live in small summerhouse, eat simple food, cook, own old, small car that I use only when necessary. I prefer biking whenever possible. Buy most clothes and stuff used or heavily discounted. Buying used stuff is also good for the planet. Learnt a lot of DIY which is both cool and satifying.
I despise urban enviroment but have to visit the city cause I take care of older parents. So the summerhouse and living in the forrest is both a choice and a way to spend less on rent..
In a way I always wanted this but given the opportunity I had been chasing money, opportunities, new experiences, following the rat race etc. Now as this is over I feel less conflicted which makes me happier.
You need way, way less money then you think you do but the expectations adjustment process on the mental level is very slow. But of course it is good to have some savings.
In case anyone is curious, I've been able to live well on about $6000-8000 a year. I certainly eat like a king, since fruits and vegetables are amazingly cheap here. Otherwise my hobbies are inexpensive, e.g. exercise and sports, writing software for personal projects, making digital art, etc.
It's not for everyone, but I would have really struggled on a more conventional path. It's been my experience that working for someone else is really degrading, although I'm sure some companies are better than others.
I consider myself extremely lucky, as most of my neighbors here lead very difficult lives. In the poorer half of the world, life is extremely brutal and arduous for most people. It's very sad and I've seen things here that are shocking and appalling (and I am not faint of heart, after spending many years "hustling" in the US). The behavior of other expats here also leaves something to be desired, although at least it's not as bad as Thailand...
Cambodia is developing rapidly, but somehow I doubt that the kleptocratic government here will manage to turn this place into the next Singapore or Korea :)
I really don't want to return to tech, because it simply is not my passion. I'm going to try to start an aerospace startup instead, which is my passion. Perfect timing right?
I think I'm starting to feel this. I'm neither talented nor educated enough to work on things I truly find interesting and my ability to learn feels like its completely flatlined these days. Unfortunately, I feel trapped in what I do rn, because it's really one of the only decently paying careers I can get.
Also saw that programmers were starting to be treated like factory workers where attendance and metrics like keystrokes per minute were more important than good well written and documented code.
The final straw however was "move fast and break things". Basically pump out change for the sake of change and let the end user do quality control.
One could argue that app stores have also played a significant role, basically taking thirty percent gross while depriving the developer of direct contact with the end user.
Bottom line, I’d rather be sailing.
So true! Saying both as developer and user!
The worst part is how this leads to more on-call and an increase in working off-hours.
This is a great quote, I'm going to steal this from you!
This is why I quit being a software engineer as well (I didn't leave the tech industry altogether tho, just switched career trajectories a bit).
I spent years trying to talk some sense into the people pushing that and trying to explain (it's as much art as science) but in the end the Scrum people won. So, I moved over to devops and consulting where most of the time I'm helping people with stuff, and the long death-march sprints to satisfy an arbitrarily deadline that nobody cared about until it got put on paper two weeks ago, and still doesn't matter except it will turn some spreadsheet field red that draws the Eye of Sauron from higher ups, are mostly over now. I get my coding fix by working on open source projects, and it's way more fulfilling.
Excellent phrase. Thank you.
This. Something has definitely changed in the last ~10 to 20 years since the end of the dotcom era of interviewing in the tech industry. Before it was as simple as reading the AUTHORS file in an open-source project like Linux to vouch for a programmer applying to somewhere like Red Hat or Mozilla. But now we are expecting them to write a proof of quicksort's worst-case runtime complexity or to explain the Diffie-Helman public key exchange mathematically on a whiteboard to "see how you think" and "prove programmer ability" which is unnecessarily academic and they either don't use it directly or search on Google for it anyway.
That's just the onsite interviews, pre-interviews are riddled with Leetcode, Hackerrank and Codility tests which can be cheated or the solution can be found on Google. What a shame that these flawed tests still exist.
I had a go at our manager recently after letting two people do our tech test then say they were too inexperienced. We could have worked that out before wasting their time.
it's kinda depressing in a way, because coding was at first, something that pulled me out of the slump i was in due to a shitty upbringing. i really like writing code, but the industry sure does know how to suck all the fun out of it.
I've gone to a number of career counselors. Trying to find something else to do. I have a number of other passions/interests. Just not sure how to turn them into a career? How did other people determine an alternate career to get into?