An upgraded iPhone 8 with a starting storage of 64 Gb at only $399. Seems like a great deal. Makes me seriously consider this model for my next phone instead of spending $1200 on an iPhone 11 Max.
Right. They seem to seriously be undermining their higher price point phone products. Although, this may be the time to do it given current market conditions.
This phone is for those of us clinging bitterly to our SEs and 6-8's because we actually like the form factor and/or are the kind of tightwads who will buy a second-hand iOS device and run it another 3 years.
That’s how a smart company does it. Cover the whole range even if it may hurt sales in one segment. Better to cannibalize yourself than have the competition do it.
If you want the smallest iPhone available, and prioritize that in your purchasing, you no longer have to compromise on a wide array of features to do so.
That will spur a great deal of people who are refusing to buy iPhones to buy iPhones (+$$$) and convert a certain percentage of bigphone users to smallphone users at a lower pricepoint at the next upgrade cycle (-$$).
It is possible that Apple's usage statistics for old iPhones indicate that the + will be greater than the - while getting a bunch of users off of older lower-performing phones.
I have an iPhone 7 and I was reluctant to change because of FaceID, which I don’t like, and screen size of new models. This SE makes me think the opposite: I look forward changing. So it is a real game changer.
(I don’t buy Android because I’ve been bitten by the non-encrypted memory before, and Google isn’t serious about privacy).
The whole point of the programme is to have the latest device if you're the kind of person who likes tech and wants the latest, not someone who will keep an SE for several years.
at this price point it makes pairing with an Apple Watch more enticing. I would have gifted watches to my parents long before but it requires an iPhone to pair too and previously the price wise option was used.
It's not entirely unwarranted begging. Personal electronics are the few status items kids/teens own, and while I'm sure every marketing department on the planet loves it, it's still a bad idea to make them visibly outcast by withholding a decent phone.
This is no different from how things have always been. When I was growing up the kids who got hand-me-down clothes got picked on. Now it will be the kids with hand-me-down phones.
Yep, exactly. $400 is not unreasonable for the most important communication device, which should be amortized over 2-3 years (and explained to the kid)
And/or give them chores and pay them an allowance. Offer a free phone of your choice, or they can save money for whichever one they want.
May or may not work though. I have a friend that does this, and one of his kids simply cannot save money. So when there's something he knows that they all want, he buys it for all of them rather than make them save for it.
Maybe, but please keep in mind $400 is a different price for the silicon valley developer earning $300k/year vs the equivalent developer in e.g. Berlin earning $80k.
> it's still a bad idea to make them visibly outcast by withholding a decent phone.
Where does it end though? A phone in one thing; what about a video game console, or pricey sneakers or brand name clothing from the top streetwear brands?
Rvery day I'm feeling a little more grateful that we had school uniforms where I went. The materialist one-upsmanship was insane even then, but at least for 8 hours/day people weren't walking billboards for "look at how much my parents have spent on me".
> Where does it end though? A phone in one thing; what about a video game console, or pricey sneakers or brand name clothing from the top streetwear brands?
They don’t use those things to talk to their friends. Think of how many things are digital-first or digital-only these days. Their phone is how they literally exist among their peers in society. It is non-optional.
> You can buy cheap Android but if you go much below $399 you’ll be replacing it a lot more often.
Not true - I've been using using a $100 Motorola G6 for the past 8 months with no issue. I bought it as a "temporary" replacement when I cracked the screen on my $399 X4 which I had used for 2 years with no issue (silly me, with a price that low I decided to self-insure). I ended up using the G6 as my primary phone because it's pretty good phone and does everything a modern flagship can but with expandable storage via microSD - the only downside is that the camera doesn't take amazing pictures
I’m wondering if I have an unfair bias against android. I think perhaps the ecosystem has evolved in the last few years and it sounds like even the more affordable devices are offering good performance now?
I bought my son a Moto G in 2016. It was dreadfully slow. Not just for games, even simple apps. He was glad when he got upgraded to my hand me down 2014 iPhone 6s, in 2018. I had already replaced the battery.
If high end Android phones are usually two years behind iOS in performance, can you imagine how bad a low end or midrange Android phone is?
Motorola's G-series is midrange at best - so not only was you assertion wrong; but you don't have to imagine what you experienced. Moto's high-end is the X-series, and frankly I saw no speed difference when I switched between the two (I don't play games, so it's possible my G6 has weaker GPU perf & I wouldn't have noticed).
The mid-range Samsung Axx range (A50, A70) etc. are in that range and have received very good reviews re: battery life and camera, the two key factors people care about. Samsung's about as reliable as it gets when it comes to Android OEMs.
Android version updates for 2 years, Android/Samsung security updates for 4 years. As an Android user, I can live with that.
My S7 is on Android 8.1. I have a newer Nokia on Android 10. I don't see any meaningful differences. The Nokia has something called "Digital Wellbeing" which I don't use. Everything else, like Fingerprint unlock and stuff like that has been around a few years now.
The hardware makes most of the difference IMO. The Galaxy S7 camera handily beats the cheap lens of the Nokia.
I've had a lot of smartphones & especially with kids they wear out/break before their CPUs become obsolete.
My last iPhone was the old SE and I had to replace it after it got so bent/broken after 2 years that it could no longer be reasonably repaired.
These phones (android or iOS) tend to last ~2-3 years at our household (2 adults & 2 kids, kids don't have their own phones).
I now have a Google pixel 3a I bought at a sale for €300 & it doesn't feel any less quality-wise than my old iPhone did. And unlike the old SE I don't have to suffer the too small screen (I got the SE cuz it was the cheapest iPhone at the time but 4" was really too small for comfort).
Due to Apple's intentional design choices and the psychology of in-groups & out-groups; having a non-Apple phone as an American teenager appears to be a grueling experience, even for the most well-adjusted kids. Group texts mark you out with green bubbles when everyone has blue, and sometimes you wont receive the messages on time. I remember reading how one teen had been assigned a group for schoolwork, and their colleague created a secondary iPhone-only group chat without him.
I don't know how much Apple has to do with it, I think most of the problem is that SMS is hot trash and nobody seems too concerned with getting a replacement out network-wide (if AT&T said that they were getting rid of SMS for RCS, Apple would build it into the phone. But due to the fragmentation of the current implementation(s), nobody seems too concerned).
Most people don't think about that, they just think green bubble bad, blue bubble good, but this is one of those rare instances where it's actual technical issues causing the hangup.
That's interesting, here we use SMS so nobody is left out. You don't have to download an app for it and just about every plan for the last decade has had unlimited texting (or a ridiculously high limit).
Yeah, but you can't easily create and manage groups with SMS or share photos and videos conveniently and absolutely everyone owns a smartphone now from the wealthy to homeless people so downloading a cross platform app is not a barrier
Yes, whatsapp was the first nice and easy to use free Multimedia Messaging Service worldwide. It was so refreshing to be able to send messages to anywhere In the world and not worry about international charges.
Also it was mostly spam free due to being tied to a phone number.
WhatsApp ran quite well on Nokia's S40 for many years - so even those with 3-day battery, $20 featurephones could use it. Unfortunately, after the Facebook acquisition they deprecated support in favor of feature-bloat based on smartphone capabilities (IMO)
Teenagers in Japan mainly use iPhones because of airdrop, letting easily share photos and videos. Few can afford to pay for data caps.
The price of the phone is split into 24 payments across the standard 2 year contracts from carriers. Failing that, Apple also offers a 1 year interest free loan. So the price of the phone is already taken out of the equation.
In the US, Apple themselves offer an interest free loan for 2 years. The price of an iPhone plus AppleCare is the same whether or not you pay at time of purchase or over the next 24 months.
Same here. I'd got an iPhone 7 with 128GB for only $100 used, on Craigslist. I only buy used phones now, and I never spend more than $200. The market is always saturated with used phones, and they work fine.
I bought two Sony a7ii cameras and a flash for only $1400, because they were used. Full price new, it would've been 3600. They work great, and I can use my money on other things. I see very few reasons to buy new electronics, especially given the security of an iPhone and how easily they are reset.
A while ago I quit buying new models and switched to refurbished ones. The 7 I had did more or less what its predecessor did (car services, chat, remote camera control) and the one I have now (X or Xs?) does more or less what the 7 did.
I can afford the newer ones, but I don't see the value relative to the four-figure cost.
Ssh, don't tell me that! I've used my 128GB iPhone 7 since buying it used when the iPhone 8 was released, and I still think it has an excellent camera compared to my previous Galaxy Note 4.
There is also a difference between phones. My 7 only makes decent pictures under the best of conditions. In other conditions it yields grainy and water painting style pictures. My wife’s 7, ordered at the same time yields way sharper and higher resolution pictures in the same situations.
Mine took this photo yesterday, and I can definitely see room for improvement both in overall sharpness and in detail clarity like the signs and foliage: https://i.imgur.com/U1mmscV.jpg
It sits above my personal line of "good enough", though, and every photo will be mangled by $social_network JPEG compression before anybody else sees it anyway.
See that's funny because despite switching to Oneplus I still miss the camera from my Note 4 every day. Even the "standard angle" cameras these days have such wide fields of view there's never enough detail on my subject to make my pictures worth having.
I was running an AOSP-based build of Android with significantly worse camera results than Samsung's Android, presumably due to some missing proprietary driver. My fault :)
I still use a 7. I don't even notice it, which is exactly what I want in a phone - it does what I need and doesn't annoy me or have many annoying quirks.
iOS's new text interface may still push me to Android. The affordances for text on iOS have historically been simple, dependable, and understandable. Now, I find myself struggling to select, copy, and edit text fields. Gesture-based cursor management doesn't work well on small screens.
Doesn’t really seem worth it to me, you get multiple years less of updates, slower hardware, and worse battery life for what, like $200 saved over the XR?
When I got my XS ($1000) it was because I planned to keep it for a long time. It's been a year and a half and I have zero complaints of degradation in speed, battery life, etc. Still feels like new. I plan on keeping it for four years at least. Compare that to the $500 phones of the past that would limp across the two-year mark and it's really not unreasonable.
I don't think this is the comparison that you're drawing, but I'd like to point out that my current iPhone SE has been doing well for three years (other than a battery replacement), and I think it has at least one more year left in it. So it's not just the top-end phones that have staying power.
That depends a lot on what's meant by "refurb". I've had some that had had a screen and battery replacement, and they work and last like new, as they should. I've also had some that were sold as "refurbished" despite having had, at most, a wipe down with Windex to get the fingerprints off. Those don't do so well, but if you're handy, you can do your own refurbs with $80 in parts and an hour or so of work, and get the same like-new result modulo whatever damage exists to the case.
Another dedicated (first-get) iPhone SE reporting in. It did desperately need a battery replacement but it was only $50. I have noticed that increasingly apps and websites aren't designed for such a small screen, even Apple's first-party ones.
I'm also still holding on to my 6S+. We upgraded my wife to an 11 and I just don't see anything that I have to have. Eventually, I'll upgrade for a better camera but I'll probably keep using the 6S+ until the battery can't hold a charge
And even then, they replace batteries now on the cheap ($50 I think). I would say the biggest limiting factor would be OS updates; they guarantee updates for 4 years, which is the longest in the industry, but may be shorter than the lifetime of the device would otherwise be
Same here. Recently the camera has started shaking really badly so I'm thinking of finally getting a replacement. I have other cameras though, so the phone camera is just for convenience. It's hard to bite the bullet on a new phone when the one I have is (aside from the camera) in great shape.
I looked into it a bit, and found that this happens when a piece of dust gets into the lens, which steals the focusing of the camera, so it shakes because it oscillates focus from the field of view and the piece of dust. Sadly the camera module needs to be replaced, which can be purchased cheaply but medium tedious difficulty to replace - or pay to have it done not as cheaply.
I'd still be using my 6S+ if this hadn't happened to me. Apparently there's a software problem with the optical stabilization, and it goes haywire. A fix is to override the stabilization solenoids with a magnet next to the lens. Not happy that Apple never fixed this bug they introduced.
The other thing that went wrong, also apparently in an OS update, is that TouchID won't work anymore. The hardware isn't recognized.
Agreed, I upgraded from 7 to XS for the camera upgrade, and I can't really see myself wanting to upgrade again soon. I just paid the XS off and now I just pay for an unlimited plan at $60 a month, it's pretty nice.
Current iPhones still struggle in low light photography but I can't see myself caring enough to upgrade to a new flagship anytime soon just to maybe take better pics at night.
Yeah. I'm not saying there will never be a new feature that inspires me to upgrade early, but there isn't one on the horizon right now. The only things I can think of right now are a foldable version (maybe) or a significantly smaller screen size (SE-size). 5G certainly won't do it.
I agree with the low light photography situation. I have an XR and the only thing that i feel short off is low light photography. I had pixel 2 before this, so low light situation was bit downer. Recently I compared my phone with iPhone 11 from my co-worker, we tried shooting this dark storage location and iPhone 11 definitely is big improvement. But i am planning to keep my phone for at least next 4 years. The rest of the phone is fantastic.
I thought that too with my XS, but it’s been nothing but trouble since day 1. The LTE and WiFi modems (not antennas) just don’t work right, and require a hard reboot occasionally to work correctly.
For the future, Apple has a short-term return policy (14 days I think) where they'll take a device back for any reason, no questions asked, full refund. So even if it's an intermittent problem that's hard to demonstrate, if you feel like there's something wrong with your device, you can just take it in and get a new one in that time period no matter what.
Looks like I'm hardly original, but I'm also still using an original SE that I bought 4 years ago. Unlike the other posters here, I'm even rocking my original battery! (it is admittedly on its last legs, though). Spending < $100/yr on fully-supported phones is a pretty tough benchmark to beat. Looks like this new SE will accomplish that task like its predecessor.
Every industrial engineer and electrical engineer I know said that it was a doomed project, and when I repeated their arguments to me (huge inefficiency in battery life, very heavy, poor performance) nobody wanted to listen. (And I was heavily downvoted).
my friends ended up being right, those issues could never be worked out because it’s a fundamental problem. Integrated circuits are more efficient than others and having high performance data and power contacts is wasteful at best, and heavy at worst.
It’s the same as building a computer on a breadboard vs having everything built in like a raspberry pi.
My iPhone 8 was maxed out with storage and is going strong. But even as a tech person who loves phones, I don't see the value proposition... it feels like a fully loaded Honda Civic.
I'd love the fancy camera, but the cost of the flagship seems to be way out of line with the value. I'd rather have a phone + macbook. (I keep computers for 4-5 years and phones for 2-2.5 depending on the battery), so the annualized cost of a fancy iphone is basically the same as a $500 phone + macbook.
Yeah, I priced out the 256GB model and saw that it was $299, if I were to trade in my 8+. I reflexively assumed the store had an error and reloaded the page. Can't remember the last time I've seen a new Apple device priced at <$300 (iPod nano?)
On a different note, Isn't it weird to see companies launching new phones when the whole world is fighting a pandemic?
It's not like an essential that we can't live without. OnePlus just did a few days back. Do these companies expect people to buy new phones when they're are being laid off or is it just an annual ritual or a desparate move to be the first to capture the market when things become normal?
As Apple moves to be more of a service-based company, they are likely factoring in the increase in service value for newly acquired/retained customers.
From Apple’s perspective, this is a good time to have a more affordable phone available for people who need to upgrade (broken, damaged, or lost phone) or are getting their first phone (kids).
Most of this was developed way before the pandemic started. Not launching would be wasted effort and you might end up looking like you are lagging behind phonemakers that announced/launched before the pandemic.
Gadgets are seen as a status symbol in some groups, having the newest thing could be more desirable than paying rent to some. There is also still a large group of people that were not laid off, they still want that money.
I do not know about the logistics of manufacture and shipping, there might be a shortage after they sell though the initial launch stock.
> It's not like an essential that we can't live without
For $399, you can buy a device with the computing power of a networked workstation within a lifetime of memory. That lets you dial into e.g. VoIP calls, answer e-mail, manage your calendar and interact with workflow apps.
Put another way, this could be seen as a substitute for a laptop for some users. That's absolutely essential.
The rumor mill suggests the next generation of flagship phones are going to have flat sides. So I'm guessing it's a way to differentiate and present flat edges as denoting "premium." The iPad Pro has flat sides too.
It will come back with the iPhone 12 Pro as the "Pro" form factor, inspired from the iPad Pro. No one will remember the 1st generation SE by then, and everyone will be blown away.
I can see people not liking phones like > 6" screens because they are too hard to hold but it seems like 4" screens are too far in the opposite direction.
I have an iPhone 6 that I keep around (I normally use an iPhone SE, of course) and I don't really like it much; I find it uncomfortable to hold for long periods of time and I constantly have to use Reachability to get at stuff :(
Hard disagree. 4-inches screens were a thing because that’s the perfect size for a human hand. Phones became huge when content consumption got prioritized over ergonomics.
Me too. iMessage is the one and only reason why I switched to an iPhone. My family demanded it, because the picture/video quality in our group chats was degraded for everyone because one group chat member (me) had an Android.
I got an SE. And now I'm seriously glancing at this new SE. Size is fine for me.
And be out of support after 2 years? No thank you. Xperia is overpriced and Sony dropping its expensive phones from support left and right. After 10+ years with Android vendors should've put in the work to support their handsets in a streamlined fashion at least with security/OS core level updates relatively effortlessly. They didn't, Sony sure didn't. Apple is the only vendor with decent support, sadly.
Now why can't we convince Android OEMs that decent specs in a small design is a worthwhile endeavor? The Sony Xperia XZ1 Compact is the last one that comes to mind.
It's a pretty objective fact at this point that Android has more lag, is less secure, and has a worse app store than iOS. Practically the only reason anyone uses it is price.
No, there really aren't. Trust me, I spent days researching this and ended up with the Pixel 3A phablet that I hate. There are exactly zero decent Android phones <= 4.7".
And in the past year, there were precisely 2 Android phones with <= 4.7" screens. Lava Z40 and BLU Advance L5. There were zero that were as narrow as the original SE.
This is what I was about to say, because I remember the first SE. Then I went checking the specifications and I was a little disappointed
Width: 2.65 inches (67.3 mm)
Height: 5.45 inches (138.4 mm)
Depth: 0.29 inch (7.3 mm)
Weight: 5.22 ounces (148 grams)
This is only a little smaller than my Samsung A40, which is 2.72 x 5.69 x 0.31 in (69.2 x 144.4 x 7.9 mm) and weights less than the SE (4.94 oz - 140 g).
Furthermore the A40 has almost no bezel and this iPhone has a lot of it at the top and bottom of the screen. The screen of the A40 is so large that I wish I could cut a couple of cm off it. It would be large enough, fit better in pockets and weight less.
Seems like the only performant and small (sub 5.5") Android phones are usually Japanese and hard to come by, at least in Europe. I have seen a couple of them which looked great (Kyocera and Sharp, I think) but I don't feel brave enough to order them.
I'm on a three year old iPhone SE that I recently had the battery replaced in (An incredible use of $50 if anyone is fining their phone dying all the time)
I am really tempted to get this. I love the small form factor of my SE but I have large hands and the bigger screen might be a bit nice, and I really wish the camera was bit nicer on my current SE
The SE is great but my battery is quite bad now and as soon as it gets below room temperature, the battery drops from 50% to 10% and then starts turning off.
Probably will be changing the battery and keeping my current SE, the new one is not the same form factor. Agreed on the camera.
Yep thats what happened with mine.
i sent it back to Apple and had the battery replaced. I tried to make an appointment at the apple store but it said it wasn't available, maybe they don't have the parts for them in store.
Truly a night and day difference. When I leave for the day I don't have to think about bringing my charger (although I still do sometimes in case of an emergency)
The glass back really helps grip it compared to the metal backs on the 6, 6s, and 7. Of course, any case with some rubber (like the Speck ones) are very grippy.
The new iPhone 12 Pro is supposed to have a smaller screen than the 11 Pro and have squared sides, which basically means it will be shaped like the original SE, have a full screen, and the best cameras. Except for the price, the exact phone you want will probably be out later this year.
Yes, but it will be smaller than the 6/7/8 line. The overall dimensions haven’t been leaked, but a 5.4” screen is 93% the size of the 5.8” on the 11 Pro. If we scale the outer dimensions by the same amount, the 12 Pro should be 133.8x66.4 mm, which is in between the original SE and the 6/7/8 lineup.
Edit: after re-reading the leaks, it seems like the vanilla 12 is getting the smaller screen and not the Pro. So maybe we won’t have a smaller phone with square sides.
Yeah I love my old se. The square sides give me a more secure feeling when holding it. I love that it is smaller and fits nicely into my pocket. I really don’t want a phablet.
Sadly, it doesn't seem to be uncommon for a company (even Apple) to hit a home run and not understand why it was so successful. And then they're unable to follow up on it.
HyperCard still appears in top-10 lists of "greatest software ever" -- and it's usually the only one which is no longer maintained and doesn't have a modern equivalent.
Steve Jobs was strongly adamant about the size of the iphone.
Likewise, Steve Jobs saw hypercard as the future, wanting it to sync up online between people, being like the future newspaper. It's no longer maintained because it's modern equivalent is a web browser. When Steve came back to Apple he pushed hard for advancing web tech instead.
> Likewise, Steve Jobs saw hypercard as the future, wanting it to sync up online between people
Everything I've ever read about Hypercard indicates that the opposite is true: neither Jobs nor the company could "see" that Hypercard needed a true network component, nor could they even see the business case for it as time progressed.
"Popular design"? On the contrary. As an iPhone SE owner, this is exactly the form factor that fans of the iPhone 4/5 series (like me) rejected as being too large.
4/4S/5 and the old SE are still my favourite designs / form factors (saying this despite owning 6/7/11Pro). I hope 12 will do away with rounded edges (similar to the latest iPad Pro).
If it’s any consolation, consistent rumors have been pointing to a new, smaller size added to the flagship lineup this fall. It will supposedly have a similar footprint to the 5 series, but with the bezel-less screen like the modern models.
Were that rumor to be true, it would be the first time in ten years I'd line up at a physical store on launch day just to make sure I got one as rapidly as possible.
The 8 had a 4.7" screen and 6" (diagonal) footprint.
The 5 had a 4" screen and 5.4" footprint.
An "all-screen" phone with a 5.4" display would be have the footprint of an iPhone 5, like I said. (and that's an 8 Plus — not just an 8 — sized screen)
((still too big, imho, I want something in the iPhone 4 footprint, but I'll take what I can get))
The most perplexing part has always been the positioning of the SE as the low-price iPhone.
As an SE fan, I would happily, HAPPILY pay $1000 every two years to keep getting upgraded internals in the current form factor.
Yes Apple, I'm sure it's harder to fit those parts in a smaller case. That's why you should charge me more!
It's not a matter of Ludditry. That form factor is ergonomically ideal for a certain kind of phone use. That's precisely why it was so successful for so long.
I have a conspiracy theory that Apple redesigns the form factor every few years so that the "gotta have it" people are forced to upgrade to the latest and greatest device, and those with last gen's model feel that they need to keep up with the Joneses.
edit: I think this is a very real, but subconscious aspect of Apple culture and it exists across all of the product lines. Phones just happen to be one of their biggest products.
Cars were like this when they were the conspicious consumption item of choice. Every year, new designs. Not always better, but forever permutation so old parts don't fit and so that the 2 year old models already looked 'dated'. Now we have phones as our way to show our buying power.
I don't think it's subconscious. It shows up obviously in bezel thickness and radius of corners. When they release a new product the bezel is thick and the corners are very round. As they are able to reduce the bezel size, they also reduce the rounding of the corners. This has the effect of making the last generation look toy-like and the new generation look more serious. They have used this pattern for like 20 years across many product lines.
Absolutely, but there's more than one reason to buy a product, and people buying the cheapest and smallest model with last year's technology aren't generally the novelty-seeking "gotta have it" people. Especially people using an iPhone SE in 2020 and raving about how much they love the design. They're not going to win these people over with "new!"
Because this is Apple's bargain device, they probably don't want to keep tooling machinery around that's specifically geared toward creating that older shape and size of iPhone.
I'd assume the iPhone SE is always going to follow the look and feel of the higher-end iPhones, maybe lagging behind a generation or so.
The SE is the previous iPhone design. Before that happened to be the iPhone 5/S, now it's the iPhone 6/7/8 design. There are likely a lot of people with iPhone 6, 6S, and 7 that might upgrade but don't want to spend $700+ and lose the home button.
I don't think the SE was targeted at small phone lovers, it just happened to be that since that's the manufacturing and design they had already created for the 5 and 5S.
Rumor is that the iPhone 12 this fall will include a smaller 5.4" model. This would actually be smaller than the 4.7" SE given that the screen goes to the edges. That's likely the "premium small phone" replacement, not this new 4.7" SE.
Thanks. That is really helpful. I've been seeing the rumors of the 5.4" iPhone 12, but I had trouble understanding how the overall size would compare with the two SEs. I'll be really curious to see the price point of the 5.4". ~$1,000, or somewhere in between the 2020 SE and that?
One could also ask the question "how many people would prefer to have a phone that didn't --need-- a case"?
Given the choice between a thin phone that needs a case and a phone that is as thick as a thin phone with a case that is more durable, possibly has a headphone jack and a slightly larger battery, I would personally go for the latter.
If a phone is designed so the screen always breaks when it hits the ground unless it's protected by a case, it would make more sense to manufacture the phone inside a case already, no? I.e. make a raised rubber bezel around the screen's edge part of the standard design.
I've never had a phone come with a case? Strange. But these days I just use the 10$ minimal rubber cases. It's enough to protect were the screen and case meet which is the source of all my breaks.
I’d never used a case until I got the iPhone 8 and had to buy one because of how slippery it is! Unless you put it on a perfectly flat surface it will just slide off on to the floor.
Mid- and high-end Android phones (e.g. Google-owned Motorola era) used to have a soft-touch plastic casing which was incredibly grippy, and felt and looked great. Then some phone reviewers decided that in order to be "premium", a phone must be made of slipperiest materials known to man. And so here we are, with everyone covering up their "premium" phones with cases, so they're both uglier and thicker than they used to be when they had soft-touch casing and headphone jacks. Progress.
Yes! I didn't need a case with my iphone 7 since it had a metal back that created friction in my pocket. My iphone x is glass and slips out of my pocket constantly so i had to start casing it.
IIRC the iPhone is the most profitable consumer product ever. If anything, it should be able to support a greater diversity of models than it does. Because even the "small minority" slices are still large in absolute terms. For instance, I'd suppose a niche iPhone could still be more profitable than, say, the new Mac Pro, which is expensive and looks cool but doesn't sell that many units.
Which is perhaps why the iPhone 12 rumors point to four new models, one of which is smaller than the iPhone 8 and one of which is larger than the current Max phones.
If that's true there will be 5 distinct iPhone models released in one year, which I think is a new record for iPhone model diversity.
It feels like the automotive industry's product lines. Gradually increase the size and shift it more towards luxury, then introduce a new economy product line. Maybe in 2022 we'll get the iPhone XSE.
Apple is referring to the 6/6S/7/8 case. It is indeed extremely popular.
Check out these stats from a year ago. On this app (which has a broad appeal), the 6/6S/7/8 had a 47% share. iPhone 5s/SE had 11%
The old SE form factor is great! And those who like it, like it a lot. But you're clearly wrong if you take that to mean that the new SE form factor is an unpopular one.
By calling this model "iPhone SE", they're plainly hoping to appeal to people who already own the earlier "iPhone SE" (and probably have not upgraded in several years). Among those people, the larger form factor is unpopular. Obviously, people who like big phones already have plenty of choice.
When they released the last SE, it was the previous generation phone design with updated internals at a lower price point.
When they released this SE, it is the previous generation phone design with updated internals at a lower price point.
I don't think Apple's intention was to get all of the "I like tiny phones" people to upgrade and they somehow just missed the mark. They know who they want to buy this phone, it just doesn't happen to be one group of people who liked the old SE.
Of course 4/5 fans wouldn't like it. They are a hilariously small and vocal minority.
This is the most popular selling smartphone design in history. It's no secret that the market back in 2013 was begging for a larger screened phone and this design delivered it in a big way. It's also much smaller than current flagships.
I kept my iPhone SE and was waiting for this announcement for literal years. I only just replaced it for an XS _2 weeks ago_ (refurbished off Woot!), and I knew at the time that as soon as I caved, the new SE would come out. And here we are. If only my Wall Street bets went so well.
The small form factor is really nice to have. Some people don't want a gigantic phone, it's true. Maybe we are in the minority, but a huge phone is inconvenient at the times where you don't need a big screen. I still can't even unlock the thing without having my big dumb face directly in front of it.
The screen is gorgeous OLED and it's terrific to watch Youtube/Netflix on in bed. The camera is incredible. A foldable phone would clearly be the most practical, but I know Apple won't ever do that, and I won't switch to Android. At this point, I just have this stupid thing attached to me at all times, and I'll have to accept it. You ever try running with a damn X/XS/XR or god forbid one of the Max phones strapped to your arm?
But my point is that just because people have gotten used to bigger and bigger phones, doesn't mean that they wouldn't appreciate it being smaller 99% of the time. Like I just mentioned, running or even going for a walk wearing gym shorts with one of these devices in your pocket is pretty much impossible. They are too large and weigh too much, flailing around and whacking you in the knees. I have a battery charging case which admittedly adds more weight, but it literally pulls my shorts down when I go for a brisk walk with my dog.
So to call those who desire a small phone a "hilariously small and vocal minority" sounds to me like "people are in denial that a bigger phone is always better" when that most certainly is not true. It has benefits but I still think they should have kept the SE2 the same size (4") as the SE. The ideal solution would be a phone that can be big OR small depending on situation.
Much like the concept of a touch screen as pitched by Jobs himself during the initial iPhone reveal (context-sensitive buttons/keyboards depending on what you currently need vs. a static keyboard), you can't tell me that the vast majority wants a huge phone every hour of the day.
This is why they will gladly sell you a cellular Apple watch. I actually laughed at the comparison of strapping the phone to your arm because it was so obvious.
I'm just saying that the SE would have sold better or people would have been more upset about the discontinuation, or the Xperia compact line would have sold well...but people want a big screen. It's proven by the market. I'm not saying there isn't a market for a small phone, I'm just saying that there is a much bigger market for a larger phone. (and the original comment claimed the design wasn't popular because it wasnt 4/5 sized) The companies are not idiots out there, all of them went to larger phones because the majority of people prefer them. (Notably the older crowd with worse vision that came onboard to smartphones in the early 2010s and the crowd that got addicted to apps.) I loved my 5S back in the day but the larger screen is much better when you actually use it in depth.
I have a cellular Apple Watch! But Apple doesn't let Spotify sync music to it (or stream via the CELLULAR), so I can't listen to anything unless I'm near my phone.
Imagine my surprise when I got an Apple Watch with cellular specifically to avoid having to take my phone with me. Absolutely absurd - and it's obvious why - they want you to use Apple Music. I refuse to be forced into using a piece of software. And before someone comes back with the inevitable "well you should have researched it":
1) I never thought such a simple and obvious concept would be absent from the Apple Watch, and
2) I use the Watch for the utility of fitness tracking, and that far outweighed the inconvenience of having to continue bringing my phone with me everywhere. I'm not a big runner anyway, usually mountain biking, and my phone is in my backpack or mounted to my handlebars.
Bottom line is it's ridiculous.
EDIT: I did some research on this again and it appears that Apple actually does allow developers to stream and store data from the watch, and that it's Spotify who have yet to release an update for their WatchOS app that provides that functionality. Interesting turn of events; at least I know it's theoretically possible and not gated by Apple.
$399 iPhone? Weird! I always thought Apple stayed out of that pricerange to keep the iPhone line a "prestige" purchase (especially given how little time the "c" lasted for). I suppose that's why this model has such an iPod-esque visual design, so that outside observers don't misconstrue the people using these with their "luxury" users.
It's good to see more downward pressure coming from flagship phones lately, imo. It's a great analog to the Pixel "a" models and an overall smartphone trend that I'm very positive about!
Apple is shifting to a service revenue model with things like Apple TV+. I suspect they're realizing that to reproduce their iTunes monopoly they're going to need iPhones to be as ubiquitous as iPods.
If GOOG designs Pixels w/Exynos chips (per recent rumors), they'll likely be cheaper than the Snapdragon ones. That will put even more downward pressure on these prices.
The iPhone 5C, my guess, was Apple's experiment with having a cheaper end phone and seeing how the market would react to that. With the original SE, they probably had a ton of left over iPhone 5 shells so they chose that because it just made sense to use them. My guess is this is the same reason why the new SE has the shell from the 7/8. This also helps Apple cut down on price since they don't have to create new molds or re-engineer the interior much, which is probably how Apple is convincing themselves that they can still make their expected margins with a $399 price tag.
I've been repairing an old iPhone SE for quite a while now, holding out for Apple to listen to customers like me saying "I want a decent phone that fits in my pocket." This makes me so happy, just like when I held onto a 2015 macbook pro until they went back to a "regular" keyboard.
It's not too bad. I'm a huge proponent of the one-handed phone after using a Nexus 5 for 6.5 years. I think there are two main contributors to one-handed usability: (1) volume of the chasis, with a particular focus on width and (2) screen size, with a particular focus on screen height.
In terms of (1), the SE is in line with the Nexus 5 (and actually less wide), whilst the Pixel 4 is slightly bigger in all dimensions:
N5: 137.9 x 69.2 x 8.6 mm (5.43 x 2.72 x 0.34 in)
SE: 138.4 x 67.3 x 7.3 mm (5.45 x 2.65 x 0.29 in)
In terms of (2), a 4.7" screen with a 16:9 ratio is far easier to reach the top corners of than on a 5.7" that's 19:9. Yes, there is a bit less bezel on the Pixel 4 but it'll still be very difficult to reach the top one-handed with the taller screen.
but iOS still needs profiles. i'm really surprised they haven't done this yet. i wonder if google has patents that make this too expensive (or impossible) to do on iOS.
As a current iPhone SE user, here's my assessment:
Pros:
* Feature set in terms of processor, camera, etc., is exactly what I want
* Continued presence of Touch ID is a huge plus, I don't like Face ID
* Price point is, admittedly, fantastic
Cons:
* Lack of headphone jack is still unacceptable
* Form factor is, candidly, still too big for my tiny hands
* Color schemes aren't as nice as the SE's (can I contribute to COVID-19 research without getting a bright red phone?)
I will be considering this phone, but skeptically. Would be ideal for me to be able to physically hold one before buying, but not sure that'll be possible (maybe I can borrow somebody's iPhone 8).
And give up on the screen size. The number of people who want a phone to fit in their hands and pockets is effectively zero compared to people who want huge screens to scale up content size or watch videos on their commute.
Not only that, but as an SE owner I can attest that many apps and web pages have more or less broken UIs on its screen. And I can't blame creators for not wanting to spend effort on a form factor with small and diminishing user share.
I'm the opposite type of (amateur) developer - I designed an app with an SE as my testing device. I was months into the development process before I said, "hey maybe I should look at the app on an XR." But it was pretty simple to scale the design up. I mostly just adjusted some left/right margins for the larger devices.
And frankly this is part of Apple's premium positioning. If your primary concern is comfort of the form factor, then you're not willing to sacrifice your comfort to signal that you're using Apple's [attainable-]luxury product, and if you're not willing to sacrifice for luxury you're probably not likely to pay for it in the first place. For now, they're happy to let those people go to the Android world. We'll see if that persists into this economic recession, or if they start to move more aggressively downmarket to boost their numbers. But it's a very valid strategy.
There's a difference between wanting something and having an expectation that you'll get it. For instance, I have an expectation that my phones will have a jack, which is one of the reasons my phone isn't Apple.
> People who don't want to buy an iPhone because of it should just not buy them and stop hammering away at this dead horse.
That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm already not buying iPhones. The only reason I'd ever mention it anymore is when I see comments like this.
> You might as well give up on the headphone jack bud.
There's no reason to give up on headphone jacks.
> Finally, it has to be pointed out that people who complain about this omission underestimate how much internal space a headphone jack wastes in a phone.
I can't be underestimating it if I'm not estimating it. Some phones have jacks. Some don't. I buy the ones with jacks. I don't notice a difference in size.
I don't think the headphone jack will make much of a difference to size (specifically thinness) until they can completely eliminate all ports and move completely to wireless charging. I think that's their endgame here, as ports are the biggest hurdle to the thinness which their industrial designers (and marketers) fetishize.
If anyone ever manages to produce a phone with zero ports on it, then I'll evaluate that phone on its own merits. I'm not going spend hundreds (thousands?) of dollars on a phone that's worse just because it might encourage the manufacturer to design one that might be better in the future.
It's not really about "encouragement". This is clearly Apple's plan, and this is merely an incremental step that they must take to normalize certain things before they can achieve what they actually want to.
Framing the headphone jack as a "premium" feature may not match the views of others, and should not be considered an assumption to be taken for granted.
Headphone jacks are not necessarily considered a premium feature by all phone users.
They are by some, as is evident, but that view cannot be taken for granted — even here at HN.
> Headphone jacks are not necessarily considered a premium feature by all phone users.
Neither is a large screen, indeed I consider large portable electronics to be decidedly non-premium.
A premium feature is something I'm willing to spend money on - a phone the physical dimentions of a traditional SE, with a 3.5mm jack, dual sim cards, a modern processor, and a decent amount of storage.
My opinion continues to be as follows: As of January 2020, there is nothing any phone manufacturer has added that I would be willing to exchange my headphone jack for. Until that changes, I will either stick with my iPhone 6S, or upgrade to the best Android phone with a headphone jack available at my time of purchase.
I'd like to have a phone with a better screen and a nicer camera, and I'd even be willing to pay a lot of money for one, but those features just aren't worth the loss of my headphone jack.
The one thing I could see being worth my headphone jack is a folding screen, but it seems like we're still a ways away from those being durable enough. (And if some company does ever decide to put a headphone jack in a folding phone, that's the one I'll buy.)
You can get a Lightning adapter for iPhones. The problem is, I know myself—I will lose the adapter, likely right before a long trip.
I can't keep the adapter plugged into my headphones indefinitely, because then I wouldn't be able to connect them to my other devices (multiple computers, etc).
The iPhone comes (came?) with a pair of headphones that have a Lightning jack on the end of them, in place of a headphone jack. Just use those with the iPhone and use your regular headphones with everything else.
Or, if you want good headphones, then just let in the missionaries who've been telling you to accept Bluetooth as your Lord and Savior. (There are some really good Bluetooth headphones nowadays—studio-monitor quality audio, enough battery life to get through a working day, and <$200. I refused Bluetooth until headphones surpassed this bar, but they eventually did, about two years ago.)
Sure, and I could also get two sets of headphone-jack headphones and keep the adapter plugged into one of them.
I just don't want to carry two sets of headphones around with me. Currently, I keep my single pair in my back pocket, so I have them with me everywhere and I can use them with everything.
To be sure, the world would not end if I had to carry around two sets of headphones instead of one. But then, I don't need a faster phone either! New phones today are only adding marginal improvements, and the absence of a headphone jack is a bigger inconvenience by comparison.
Re: Bluetooth, the problem is that switching devices is still finicky. If you only use Apple products the Airpods do a good job at switching devices, but I sometimes use PCs. Also, I lose headphones frequently, and Bluetooth headphones are still expensive.
I mean, how about doing the opposite: leaving a pair of headphones plugged into whatever they "go with", and then putting in your ears the headphones of whatever device you're interacting with? How many devices do you have that need headphones plugged into them?
Many people just leave the Lightning earbuds plugged into their iPhone and wind them around the phone, putting the whole assembly into their pocket. (I've damaged enough cables of expensive devices that I've developed a tic against doing that, but in the case of the iPhone earbuds, it seems to be exactly what they're designed to do, judging by the extra plasticizer in the cable shielding that's not necessary for comfortable wearing and makes them degrade faster under UV.)
> and Bluetooth headphones are still expensive.
Have you checked Amazon lately? There are (high-quality!) $30 wireless earbuds from reputable brands.
> Leaving a pair of headphones plugged into whatever they "go with", and then putting in your ears the headphones of whatever device you're interacting with?
So my MacBook Air for instance (the 11 inch model, small enough to comfortably carry under my arm and use on the subway) doesn't really have a place to store headphones. And permanently wrapping headphones around my phone would get annoying quickly.
Again, these are nitpicks and there are ways I could adapt. But it would be inconvenient. I have a headphone jack, and it works.
> Have you checked Amazon lately?
I have not. The main problem really is switching between devices. And to a lesser extent, the Nintendo Switch's lack of Bluetooth audio support.
> That, and the Nintendo Switch's lack of Bluetooth audio support.
IIRC, they make a slimline adapter that you can stick to your Switch that gives it Bluetooth support. If you've got it jailbroken, you can also just enable it in software.
Huh, I hadn't seen that! That's really neat, and a possible real solution. Any product links? Doesn't need to be an endorsement, just as an example.
Edit: Oh, but then I totally forgot in this whole discussion—if it's Bluetooth I'll also have to remember to charge my damn things! Bleh. Still would like to see an example though!
Off-topic, but I use the HomeSpot adapter [1] to add Bluetooth to my Switch. It's a big battery drain so I try to use wired where I can, but if I need wireless (watching something while doing dishes, etc) it works pretty well with some minor caveats on initial pairing.
Headphones aren't the only devices that use headphone jacks. They can also be plugged in directly to non-portable speakers. And you can use them for high (enough) quality recording.
Plus, it's still much easier to plug in the cable than go through the pairing dance.
And the comment you replied to was talking about the usefulness of non-headphone devices that also use headphone jacks. I just don't see the relevance.
I can hang out on outdated iOS for a while (I'm actually on iOS 12 right now), but yeah, eventually I'll likely hop over to Android. Headphone jacks are getting rarer in the Android world, but they're still around, and I'll get something slightly older if need be.
other phones never got rid of it, such as the lg v-series, and other phones have brought it back, such as the sony xperia 1 ii. these phones are just as thin or thinner than the iPhones with the same ip rating.
why is this downvoted? these are facts. i just presented some examples from other manufacturers.
I'm not surprised because it's the differentiating camera feature between the SE/XR and the 11. My friends and family that have Night Mode love it, but most don't care that much about multiple lenses. I too believe the SE is up to the task. Hopefully someday Apple will issue a software update that enables it.
Either way, I'm going to upgrade as the 1st gen SE camera is showing its age. Everything else about the 1st gen is still good enough for me.
FWIW I've got some wired headphones I really love and I bought a dongle for them when I got my iPhone XS in 2018. I really don't notice it; it just feels like an extension of the cord.
When was the last time you plugged your phone into anything except to charge? And when was the last time you needed to charge it and listen to music at the same time?
All I'm saying is, lots of people who are going on and on about the headphone jack are upset out of principle, even though it won't actually degrade their user experience to a meaningful degree. I'm not saying it was the right decision, necessarily, but I'm saying you'll have a better time if you just accept it and move forward. It really isn't that bad.
Edit: Personally I only ever charge at night, and only ever use headphones when I'm walking around/driving somewhere. I guess battery life varies, but I also suspect that a lot of people are eagerly charging at every opportunity, even if they'd last the day without doing so. My XS lasts two days on a charge, usually.
I have often wanted to charge my phone and listen to it at the same time. Wireless charging helped, but I really missed being able to plug my iPhone 8 into a power bank and my headphones at the same time.
Playing Pokemon GO beat this into me hard. It used to be such a battery drain that you pretty much had to constantly be plugged in to a power bank with everything non-essential turned off (wifi, bluetooth, brightness, etc). But when you're out walking around, it was also way more enjoyable to have some kind of music or at least in-game sounds.
Plugged in, with music. For as many hours each day as the power banks would allow.
> When was the last time you plugged your phone into anything except to charge?
Aside from headphones? March 15th, the last time I took a train (been at home due to covid since then)
> And when was the last time you needed to charge it and listen to music at the same time?
Last night, when I was watching futurama in bed
Now when it comes to both cases, the answer would again be March 15th, when I had my phone plugged into my laptop providing limited connectivity, my headphones plugged into my phone listening to (offline) spotify. I then unplugged my headphones from the phone and plugged into my laptop to listen to a short video, then back into my phone to continue to listening to music.
This is possible with a lightning+3.5mm jack dongle, but it's not as nice an experience as with the superior iphone of yesteryear.
Bluetooth is a pretty ropey experience for multi sources - which device am I paired with, how do I change from one to the other, all of that goes away with 3.5mm.
I don't deny there are benefits of bluetooth, but there are benefits from a 3.5mm jack too.
I'm fortunate that I have my own office so don't need to worry about headphones during the working day - just have multiple speakers. How do these extraordinary headphones cope with sources from a TV, computer, laptop, phone, and test kit, which I want at different levels and outputs?
A £50 mixer takes these inputs (almost all from 3.5mm sources) and brings them all together via a reliable tactile interface.
On the road of course I only tend to have to choose between 2 sources, so perhaps beats can approach the utility of a 3.5mm audio cable.
> The certainty and simplicity of an audio jack is not valueless though
Nobody is saying that audio jacks are valueless in general, just that it's reasonable for a mass market device where it has value for a small % of people to not have it.
So get AirPod Pros and be done with it. Watching a show in bed, you won’t have cables tangling up. You won’t be frustrated with trying to listen to music while charging your phone on a train. You’ll have a much better experience overall. Futurama isn’t streaming at some audiophile deluxe level of audio quality, so whatever wired headphones you are using aren’t going to beat AirPods Pro for the purposes you’ve mentioned.
I am not willing to spend $250 to solve a problem that Apple willfully introduced. I am also not willing to spend $250 on a product with a usable lifetime of 18 months max.
I hear a lot about the inconvenience of wired headphones, but as a daily user of wired headphones, that's not something I experience. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the costs (financial and environmental) of switching to Apple's disposable wireless headphones.
Use any other pair of bluetooth headphones on get lightning wired headphones or use the headphone dongle.
I was annoyed when Apple initially got rid of the headphone jack but I've been without it for quite some time now and it's not really a bother. Even if you have to charge while having the wired headphones in, there is a dongle for that. I suppose if that's a very frequent use case, I can see the annoyance.
My last iPhone that had the headphone jack required frequent cleaning of the jack or else it would get clogged with accumulated dust and make the speaker very quiet.
I use hook earphones at night [0], haven't found any wireless ones, but even if I did I'd have to keep them charged which seems like a retrograde step.
The downsides of "AirPods Pro"
1) They go in my ear, which is uncomfortable
2) They need charging
3) They presumably are trivial to lose
4) They cost about 50 times as much as hook earphones.
> Watching a show in bed, you won’t have cables tangling up
I don't have cables tangling up.
> You won’t be frustrated with trying to listen to music while charging your phone on a train
I'm not, because I have a jack on my phone and I don't use bluetooth and thus suffer from deciding which host they should be connected to at any given time
They're not quite as easy to lose as you would think. Since they're so easy to cary around (rounded, small case), you don't end up putting them in strange places and it's not a problem to just keep them in your pocket.
Sorry, but I think that's nonsense. I have an iPhone 11 and charge it completely wirelessly and even you're admitting that you haven't needed to plug something in for over a month. Your complaint requires you to willingly ignore the other options you have for accomplishing this, some of which may actually be easier/smoother if switching from device to device.
> And when was the last time you needed to charge it and listen to music at the same time?
Not music, but phone calls. Working remotely means I spend a lot more time on the phone, and only recently I was frustrated by the fact that I could not charge my phone and use headphones on a call at the same time.
When was the last time you needed an airbag? I wouldn't be upset on _principle_ if it turns out my car doesn't have a working one; I don't even expect to use it frequently. However, when I do _need_ it, I'll need it badly.
"And when was the last time you needed to charge it and listen to music at the same time?"
Well, I listen to audiobooks while walking in the Scottish mountains and 10+ hour days are possible and when running multiple apps (OS maps, Endomondo, Audible) I do need to charge and use my phone at the same time (I have a dual lightning/headphone adapter that supports charging and listening at the same time).
Over the last 8 weeks? Every single day. My regular bluetooth headset with built in mic picks up too much ambient noise, so I use a wired Jabra headset with a boom microphone, and I'm on this every day since I'm now remote from the people I need to speak to regularly.
Prior to the last 8 weeks? Not very often.
Over the next 8 weeks? I expect every day still.
Over the next year or two? 40% chance that it'll still be happening regularly.
> When was the last time you plugged your phone into anything except to charge? And when was the last time you needed to charge it and listen to music at the same time?
It's been a while, because I dropped my adapter down somewhere in the center console of my car, past the hand brake, so it's gone. I've been burning CDs instead. A CD burner only costs about as much as 3 of those adapters and the media's dirt cheap.
Well, my son also has a car without Bluetooth and he had an aux cord that he left in his car with a lightning adapter attached. He even found it much more convenient to just turn on his car and it paired to the Bluetooth adapter above. A $10 adapter that just stays attached to the cord you would need for your car anyway if you don’t have Bluetooth doesn’t seem that inconvenient.
However, a wireless cigarette lighter adapter that supports Bluetooth is much more convenient either way.
For me personally, Bluetooth headphones in general and AirPods Pro in particular are much more convenient - especially going back and forth between my cellular watch when I am jogging or in the gym (pre-Covid),my phone, my iPad, my laptop, and my AppleTV. Besides cords get tangled, yanked out, caught on things, etc.
>For me personally, Bluetooth headphones in general and AirPods Pro in particular are much more convenient
You're free to use Bluetooth headphones even if you have a headphone jack; being able to use them doesn't seem like a "benefit" of not having the jack.
So did you also complain when computer manufacturers stopped including PS/2 and VGA ports?
People have been complaining about Apple getting rid of things since the original iMac got rid of the 3-1/2 drive. High end android phones from Google and Samsung got rid of the headphone jack also.
I didn't complain about PS/2 and VGA ports because the replacements were decidedly better.
I've yet to see anything that makes the removal of a 3.5mm jack seem comparable. You couldn't use DVI or HDMI without replacing the port, which isn't the case with Bluetooth (which you can use regardless of having a 3.5mm jack or not).
A more apt comparison in my eyes seems like wireless mice/keyboards. They don't have cords so they're significantly nicer for cable management, look better on your desk, have longer reach, and probably have other benefits (as well as their own set of tradeoffs like latency, battery, etc). You can use them now or you can use wired versions... but just imagine if a company started selling computers where you could _only_ use wireless keyboard/mice unless you bought USB dongles. Sure, you could just buy the dongles and deal with the loss of choice/convenience, but... why would you want to?
but just imagine if a company started selling computers where you could _only_ use wireless keyboard/mice unless you bought USB dongles.
You mean like the one port MacBook that once you plugged it in for power you had to use wireless accessories, the current MacBook Air and 13” MacBook Pro that only has two ports - but once you plug in power and a monitor you don’t have any ports left?
Yeah, kind of like that (except laptops have a built-in keyboard/mouse, so it's not as much of a problem as, say, a desktop where people rely on their own existing hardware would be). I'd wager most people buy those devices because the rest of the machine is so compelling, despite the lack of ports.
Anecdotally, it seems like each HN thread about new macbooks also has plenty of comments from people complaining about the lack of ports and/or wishing for more. I don't see a lot of people saying the equivalent of, "Apple's never gonna bring those ports back, get over it and get used to it."
When I wake up for an early meeting and find that I forgot to put the phone on the charger, so I need to charge ASAP and also get on the call with headphones.
No, that's illegal where I live (at least for the driver, I'll sometime wear headphones on a long trip when I'm not driving but in that case I won't be navigating so battery drain isn't as bad). I was responding to the above poster's question: "And when was the last time you needed to charge it and listen to music at the same time?" I don't have wireless Android Auto or whatever new cars have nowadays, so I use an analog connection to my car's stereo. The cable uses the same 3.5mm jack as headphones, but is legal as long as I don't fiddle with my phone while driving.
This sure seems like a niche case that rightfully Apple wouldn’t see in their actual-use statistics when making decisions like “should we remove the analog 3.5mm?”
I'm not sure "driving an older car" is a very niche case. 3.5mm jacks on car stereos go back literal decades, and my 2019 Jetta still has one (even though it also has Android Auto + CarPlay). Even as far back as cars with cassette players saw people buying cassette tape adapters so people could route 3.5mm audio through the tape deck.
Even in newer cars, it's the same kind of choice reduction you see on phones, though. With a jack you can choose whether you want wired or wireless audio; without a jack you're still with wireless all the time, even when wired would be more convenient.
It's definitely a niche, most people buying $1000 phones are probably driving newer cars.
However I think use cases like air travel or just hanging out at home with a low battery are less rare. These can be partially mitigated w/ wireless charging, but when I use a wireless battery pack on a flight my phone and tablet don't do a great job actually staying in place, and necessities lowering the tray which is annoying
Connecting a portable music player to car radios tended to go
* 3.5mm cassttee input
* FM transmitter input (for cars with CD, not cassette)
* 3.5mm aux input
Power was a 12V cigarette lighter.
During all of this the output from the mp3 lpayer was a 3.5mm device.
It was only relatively recently (say in the last 7 years) that most cars started getting USB and bluetooth sockets that took audio connections. Even then there are issues - my 2016 skoda's airplay doesn't play music properly - it frequently skips, I have to use bluetooth to get skipless sound, which means not using maps.
Having USB audio input as standard was even more recently than that - I hired a newish car about 3 years ago which had nothing by a 3.5mm input and 12V jack.
Presumably plugged into the AUX jack in the car. Usually with power plugged into an cigarette lighter adapter. This use case is covered with the correct kind of dongle, but they're a bit hard to find. You'll probably have to order it off of the internet, not pick it up from the checkout aisle at the 7/11.
>> lots of people who are going on and on about the headphone jack are upset out of principle, even though it won't actually degrade their user experience to a meaningful degree
But that is patently untrue.
1. I used to have a bunch of cheap, working headsets everywhere - laptop backpack, car, office, home. That whole use case and convenience is GONE.
2. If I was somewhere and needed to take a concall, I could just borrow anybody's headset. No longer the case.
3. Instead of having a good pair of headphones for 2 decades, I now have to buy new bluetooth headphones with unreplaceable battery and aging standards every few years, and worry about charging them etc.
My life has been so much worse since my employer switched to iPhone, that I wrote to my boss, project manager, practice lead, and in the end CFO. And not because "I'm one of those people" - I spend 3-6hrs a day on calls, and life just sucks now.
(for those who think Airpods are "fine for calls" - yes. For YOU. Not for other 20 people on the call who have to hear everything happening in 5 miles radius of you. And heaven help us if multiple Airpods join the call!)
So even if we say life got worse for - whatever: 10%, 5%, 1% of population - how has it gotten BETTER for you guys that don't happen to have a need for a jack? The phone is not smaller, it doesn't have a better battery life, etc.
I just don't see the argument here other than "I don't need it, so nobody should have it".
I've now spent several hundred dollars on the best-reviewed, bluetooth headset for my conference calls, and it's nowhere near as good, or convenient, as my $29.99 wired headsets.
It now becomes either something I have to carry around with me always; or buy one for each 3.5mm headset I've stashed.
Add the poor reliability and performance, and we come back to your point:
"Yes we shouldn't have to, yes it's a step backwards, yes it's not as good"
Exactly. So I will absolutely do whatever I can to make my life easier - but I also refuse to pretend this does not make my life needlessly harder - once again, for no obvious gain for those who defend the decision.
Phone jack is inherently different than all the Firewire/Zip drive items. There are literally thousands of technologies, interfaces and standards that live and die like fireflies. But the phone jack is a century old and still works perfectly well, and we have replaced it WITH the technology of the day - who thinks their $300 Bluetooth Bose will work 20 years from now? Or seemlessly plug in to each device they use?
Life is full of situations where you have to adapt to an inferior world, it's important to avoid stressing over situations you can't control.
"I've now spent several hundred dollars on the best-reviewed, bluetooth headset for my conference calls, and it's nowhere near as good, or convenient, as my $29.99 wired headsets"
You could buy 50 3.5mm+lightning dongles for several hundred dollars, and stick them on the end of each headset, which sounds more convenient than messing around with bluetooth.
I was thinking of the terrible headsets that some collegues use -- they have USB-A plugs on the end, for laptops. Not sure what they do if they want to join a call from their phone (say out walking). My 3.5mm tip+ring+ring+sheild headphones works on laptops and phones, seems far superior to their single-use devices. But western economy is built around selling you something new every 2-4 years, so needs obsoleting.
Every single moment of "oh, I'll just plug my phone into the AUX... oh. right." is not "out of principle". It's made especially stark when contrasted with other devices: right now I'm 3.5mm'd into a 2019 MacBook for Zoom; I can trivially replug into the iPad next to me, but if I want to do the same with the equivalent era iPhone, I have to walk out of the room, root through a bag for the adapter, or go find the AirPods (hoping they're charged), probably re-select them as the output, while accepting the loss in quality from the old-school cans.
It's not some hypothetical: it's literally decades of habit and muscle memory, throwing away a simple and universal technology that worked insanely well. I can forgive this sort of short-term sacrifice for a transition to a better world: floppy for USB, HDMI for USB-C. One can debate whether the loss is necessary, but usually once we're on the other side, the new standard is inherently superior across every metric.
This is not the case for wired to wireless audio. Though I love the AirPods, they still have batteries, which still run down (short term, and long term). It's always more of a hassle to swap bluetooth connections than just replugging cables. If I want to not share my audio with the world, I can be 1000% sure of that by plugging in a cable, as opposed to the ephemeral "is my computer paired right now, and if so to what?", which could change at any moment when signal is lost or a battery dies. Sure, there's dongles, which is yet another piece of tech junk to juggle and find and lose, and which never seem to be around when you actually need it.
Imagine you went to your bookshelf to grab something to read, only to discover that your curated and beloved collection has all been pulped, and a Kindle with their contents is now in its place. Bezos enthusiastically tells you how much better the Kindle is, and how brave he is for "upgrading" you. That is how we feel. It's one thing to decide to make this sort of transition yourself; when a massive corporation does it on your behalf, "for your own good", yeah, we're gonna get peeved.
As a non-iPhone user, the standout feature to me is the 16:9 display. I'm so sick of phones with absurdly tall screens and dearly wish I could get an android with flagship internals and a 16:9 screen.
It was flagged obviously because you put an unrelated flamebait phrase in the middle of your comment. That's not cool, and we already asked you to stop this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22824585.
What flame bait phrase? You linked me to a comment where I told a guy off for making excuses for china. In this one I said I’m wearing a mask because of the Wuhan flu. How is what I said flame bait?
There's disagreement around whether "Wuhan Flu" is a good way to name the disease. There are arguments for and against it, but which argument people prefer is strongly (entirely?) correlated with their political commitment, so tossing a phrase like that into an HN comment is political flamebait.
Edit: here is an example of the sort of low-rent, repetitive thread that such things lead to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22886052. Would you please stop feeding this here? It's the sort of thing this site is explicitly not for.
You have to add $75 a year to the operating cost of these phones, for AirPods, which appear to have a design life of about 18 months, max.
I am very frustrated as the SE is really getting to end of life. I have bought 3 of them in the past month from various eBay sellers with good feedback. One fake, one had a badly degraded battery, and the other went into a reset loop after a couple weeks. There's not much out there. Apple's privacy is second to none, usability is very good (though if they introduce one more type of swiping I'm going to go mad. What's next, Force Swiping?), but the hardware is getting extremely inconvenient. Even my buddy who has large hands complains that the phone is too big and heavy.
When I got an iPhone 8, it came with that adapter in the box. I do keep a spare we had lying around in my cross-body bag too, for times like using someone's aux cord in a car.
Yes, it's another thing you can lose, but in practice I don't think it's really a problem -- certainly not the issue that would decide a phone for me, since rarely are all other specs equal.
There are many bluetooth headphone choices, plus an adapter for plugging in headphones. I'm just as sour about the death of the headphone jack, but I think it's hyperbole to say that $75/yr for airpods is required.
Some bluetooth headphones have outstanding battery life. Beats Solo 3 for example. Personally I have no reason to go back to wired headphones, just switching them between devices with a click of a button is so convenient.
For me, I prefer the 4" screen but I can handle a slightly bigger screen. Touch ID is a must and I'm glad they kept it. But the loss of the headphone jack will be bad, so I'll stick with my current SE as long as it's supported.
The original SE is about 4 years old now, which is close to retirement age in Smartphone years. It should be noted that the SE uses the same class hardware as the 6s, which is at the very bottom of Apple's currently supported list.
If that were the only reason then Apple wouldn't associate it with Product Red.
The Red iPhone is signaling and that's the whole premise of Product Red. The charity appeals to vane people who feel the need to show off and exploits them for good.
A bright red phone is attention grabbing, like a loud motorcycle or crazy hair. You can claim that because one person might just like having a red phone, that everyone who has it just likes red phones but the association with and marketing around Product Red all point to the red colored phone being a form of signaling.
That's nonsense. The marketing around Product Red are that you can buy the same product you want in a color that you want and donate to charity without changing your behavior at all. That's the only association being made.
My comment was in the context of Apple's Product Red offerings, not the charity itself. You can't buy an Apple product and have proceeds from the purchase go to the Product Red charity unless you purchase a bright red device.
But I appreciate that you're willing to read through an entire thread and then take my last comment completely out of context for your "witty" response.
My comment was in the context of Apple's Product Red offerings, you can't buy an Apple product and have proceeds from the purchase go to the Product Red charity unless you purchase a bright red device.
Yes you can purchase any Apple device you want AND donate to the charity. You can also forgo the device and just donate to the charity, but we weren't talking about either of those scenarios.
What's with the US and Checks? Can your financial institution not get on with the time and offer internet/mobile banking? Not to be an arse but it seems very backward in many ways.
That's only because the cheques are allowed in the first place. Rest of the civilised world can make online transfer that will reach the recipient the minute you pressed the form button, granted no unusual infrastructure issues.
FWIW I thought I would miss TouchID for a long time until I finally bought a new iPhone and realised that FaceID actually worked much better than I expected.
Yes there are some occasions where it doesn't work well (when you're trying to unlock the phone without looking at it properly) but there are also many occasions where it works much better. Most of the time my phone now unlocks so smoothly that I don't even realise it was locked. So on balance I think FaceID would actually be a plus.
I'm sure that's a huge help for people who like to check their notifications or other things on their phone while it's sitting on the desk without picking it up. There are tons of situation where your face is not in front of the phone yet you would still like to unlock it without contorting you or it, and how well face I'd work or not has nothing to do with it.
Yes, that's one of the occasions where I have noticed it not working well. I guess it just depends on how often you do that and how annoying you find it to have to lift the phone up a bit. Not a big deal for me.
Or having to remove your sunglasses, or when you have a face mask on, or when the ambient sunlight/IR is too high for the sensor to read the tracking dots it projects on your face.
FaceID introduced a huge swath of new failure modes while simultaneously reducing security. Not acceptable.
Yes, I will admit that it's not great with a face mask. But then that wasn't really an issue until a few weeks ago. Never had problems with glasses or too much sunlight but that might just be a perk of living in a country that's not particularly sunny.
FaceID works totally fine with your sunglasses on and in bright light...
It does fail if you have a mask on, if you have goggles covering half your face, or if you have a helmet that covers your face... but to me that is all completely understandable.
And also something that you can partially alleviate with alternative appearances in the FaceID settings, depending on how much of your face you're covering.
To me FaceID makes zero sense. The majority of times I unlock my phone when it’s laying flat on the tabel and away from me. I typically don’t pick up my phone to read a message, so FaceID will require me to move my entire face and upper body to unlock the phone. This is also why I don’t get the point of having the fingerprint reader on the back like many Android phones.
I wouldn’t argue that Apple drop FaceID, but at least put the fingerprint censor back, so we can choose between ToucID or FaceID. I believe that many would choose TouchID.
Surely this depends on the situation. In many lying flat situations, Face ID does work. If you want to read a notification (eg a message) while you have gloves on (eg if you’re skiing) then Face ID plus raise to wake are a massive improvement, though of course you have to take your goggles off.
Sure, there are situations where Face ID is preferable, but I have to agree with the parent commenter here. The situations where my phone lies flat on the table but can’t be unlocked without me picking it up or moving in position for the camera to recognize me significantly outnumber the occasions where gloves or wet hands prevent me from unlocking my device. It’s not close at all.
Touch ID is much more convenient and reliable in my opinion.
Still boggles my mind that the Apple device you always use sitting directly in front of has a fingerprint sensor and the Apple device that I use at arms length, laying on my side, glancing down to at an angle, on its side, upside down etc now needs to be directly in front of me and one specific orientation to unlock.
I don't agree, I've had a phone with Face ID for years now and I still often encounter situations where Touch ID would work better. It is easier/less awkward to unlock your phone with Touch ID in a wider variety of situations, because it does not require the phone to be both aimed at your face and close enough to your face.
Touch ID also doesn't have to use heuristics to "guess" if your face might be in front of the phone so that it should look for your face to unlock. The presence of the thumb/finger is the signal.
I also prefer the phone to have a home button than not to have one. Missing the home button made other buttons' functions overloaded, so now I often inadvertently trigger Apple Pay by double-clicking the side button when I didn't mean to.
Basically, I think there are a number of subtle UX regressions that they introduced when they made this change, and it wasn't really worth it. It's not a disaster, just a series of minor annoyances that I'd prefer to do without.
FaceID does work quite well, but what if wearing masks becomes normalized because of Covid-19? I don't know how well FaceID would work with a mask on. (Of course the same thing happens with gloves and TouchID, so maybe there's no good solution)
>until I finally bought a new iPhone and realised that FaceID actually worked much better than I expected
Found the opposite, it actually worked far worse than I expected. I can no longer use my phone in bed without having to hold it right up to my face because the tech only works one way up.
Found the rest of the innovations it brought underwhelming, like it can tell when I look away for 10 seconds to dim the screen but it doesn't undim it when I look back or the utterly confusing logic for showing me full notifications or not. The amount of times I've had to unlock my phone just to check through notifications is crazy.
My iPhone 11 consistently feels like a downgrade in user experience from my 7, even the camera everyone raves so much about doesn't seem that much better to justify how much of the case it now takes up.
Yes, I'd be leaning towards trading my SE in for this except for the headphone jack which I use a lot. Now I'll have to wait and see if iOS 14 supports my phone.
Otherwise this looks like a solid improvement. $400 is the north end of what I'm willing to pay before I look at refurbs and last year's model.
I would happily make do with the dongle, but the Apple dongle's built-in DAC is noticeably poor. And, the iPhone having a lightning connector instead of a USB one, there really aren't a lot of alternatives on the market, especially if you're looking for a reasonable price point.
It's really frustrating. I use my phone to listen to music at work, and while I'm far from being an audiophile, things like a tinny high end are still annoying. Where Apple has spent so much time marketing to creatives, you'd think they would pay more attention to something like this. My impression, though, is that they're so caught up with the cash cow that is AirPods and wireless Beats headphones that they just don't care anymore.
Or perhaps there's a manufacturing error or some cable damage in the one I listened to? Or, for that matter, I have no idea what the impedance was on the headphones I was using; it was a pair of cans that could well have been more than 100ohm.
In any case, thanks for sharing. These test results are definitely reassuring.
Well he tests at 35Ω and 200kΩ so probably not resistance, and the output impedance is very low.
It may be that you’re used to hearing certain artefacts from other sources (eg you get totally different harmonics near the upper limit of a valve amp compared to a solid state one), or that the headphones could not be driven at a sufficiently high voltage. But the dac in the dongle is either the same as or better than all the dacs in iPhones with 3.5mm jacks so having a headphone jack wouldn’t help there.
Yes, I agree. I personally find the dac in the lightning connector to be pretty solid. Not as good as the interior one with headphone jack, but pretty solid overall.
I guess you must be frequently switching your headphones between the phone and some other device and so it is not sufficient to keep the $10 dongle attached to your headphone cable
No, I really just use the standard 3.5 mm EarPods to talk on the phone with family. But the conversations are long and it's much more comfortable to listen with the EarPods than to 'use the phone'. The conversations always begin with 'lemme rig up.'
But if you got a new phone it would come with EarPods with a lightning cable so it’s only different if your phone conversations last long enough that battery life is a concern
I'm just going to buy 2 old SEs on Ebay and swap units when my current SE finally dies. No way am I paying $400 for a bunch of features I don't need (better camera) plus a bunch of anti-features I want to avoid (no audio jack, still too big).
My old SE is about as perfect a size for me as there can be: with an Otterbox it fits in a vest pocket. That's what I need. This new one is too big and that is such a disappointment.
I wouldn't buy it at this price right now unless you had bought a iPhone 6S or 5S (They are actually the same, except for the screen size) in the last 2 years.
The removal of the headphone jack was something seen as treasonous for Apple to do at first, but then they will then tell you to purchase wireless earphones instead. Making it impossible to listen to music without being discovered via bluetooth trackers / scanners.
If those aren't problems for you, then it seems to be a reasonable buy for other customers who bought older phones. But if it were me, I would buy one in a year and a half when the price eventually drops further.
Still changes the form factor, but without the fidgeting problem. The case makes it easy to pop the phone in and out if you need the original form factor.
I was thinking the same till I bought an iPhone 11. The tiny adapter for 10 bucks is not that much of a hassle. I have one in my backpack and one at my workplace. I also bought a wireless charger. All that is not expensive compared to the phone itself.
Have you checked the battery health/cycles? Mine was like that, even iOS at once unexpectedly shutdown...
The battery page in settings, under Battery Health should tell your capacity and other info. for me a new battery fixed everything... and batteries aren't usually covered under warranty as far as I know in general but Apple replaced it for me. FedEx Overnighted it to their repair center in California, and then back. So only without a phone for a few days. Kinda like a brand new phone just by changing the battery.
That's the thing. The battery is still healthy and it looks like it retains 90% of its capacity on the Battery Health setting page. I bought my SE very late into its lifecycle (June 2018), so I'm not sure why it's acting this way. I have had a problem with the phone rapidly losing charge in cold weather though. Did you also have severe battery drain on your SE on iOS 13 before replacing the battery?
Yeah, at the point before I got it replaced seemed like sometimes you could watch the percent going down in real time. But then at times I’d be at a few percent and it’d run lot longer then I expected.
I know the OS itself prompted me to get a repair. Got a popup when restarting about a unexpected shutdown. So maybe that helped with the replacement process.
Sorry, you can't have IP67 water resistance with that 3.5mm headphone jack.
Edit: a lot of folks proved me wrong. I feel that I need to clarify: Apple's design goal is to make it thiner, more integrated, less components more battery space and unified input/output interface, all that combined with water resistance, is not practical. All the 3.5mm examples I am seeing doesn't attempt to make it thin and light albeit water resistant.
My Galaxy S8 has IP68 water resistance and a 3.5mm jack. I guess if you need the extra .5 meters that's non-negotiable, but still feels like a niche use case.
That's not true, although I assume it may be harder to water-proof devices with each possible opening in the chassis.
There are some water-resistant phones with a headphone jack and an IP68 rating even. The LG V30 for example is a beast. Semi-regular usage on rainy days works without any issues. Even using it as a flashlight it survived 30min of pouring rain. I had to wait for the USB-C port to dry up to charge it after getting home, but it still survived without any damage whatsoever.
Other phones that are both water-resistant and have a jack [1]:
* Pixel 3a
* Galaxy S10
* Huawei P30
* and a lot more
If I remember correctly, Apple tried to justify its removal due to its size and water-resistance. I wonder when (not if) Apple will remove the power plug due to "water-resistance" and insist on using Qi charging (even though it has worse efficiency[2]) and cloud services instead of transferring data via cable.
I hung on to my 5S for the longest time before finally getting an 8. I'm happy with the 8's form factor, but it's definitely at the upper limit of what I'm willing to carry around in my pocket all day. I can operate it with one hand, though sometimes a little awkwardly.
I hated not having the headphone jack for a long time. But AirPods (which I do love) have taken care of that problem.
Headphone jack is overrated. Keep the DAC as close to your ears as possible if you are an audiophile. For the rest of us casual listeners, the adapter is fairly cheap and just keep one connected to your headphones (or in the headphone bag if you got one).
I am willing to accept no headphone jack only if the device supports USB-C, like my new iPad Pro and every other product I have purchased in the last 4 years.
Personally not too important to me, but I fully agree that it is time to change the port to USB-C. I am not sure why Apple is lagging behind on this, as I don't think it would have any negative effect.
I think I'm in the minority, but I haven't really missed the headphone jack in my iPhone 11. I have the Echo earbuds, and those have been good to great for my use cases.
This continues to feel a bit like the 3.5 floppy and CD-ROM removals from the Mac: a lot of people hated it, until it was a nonissue.
> a lot of people hated it, until it was a nonissue
While I got the Airpods Pro when they launched and loved them at first, the battery degradation and seemingly worse ANC performance has really irked me given their price. I've also tried using cheaper wireless earbuds, but their connectivity can be spotty. I know it's not the worst issue, but I do miss being able to take a pair of wired earbuds and use them freely between my laptop and phone and not have to worry about their battery lives.
how long did it take for the battery to start degrading? its odd how people never seem to mention that problem when they are taking about how great their bt headphones are
I think bluetooth receivers are the way to go. you get the wireless aspect for the most part and can change track/volume without having to take out your phone.
you can use it any headphones or earbuds you have
with the fiio one I own, you can charge it while using it so you are never caught if you are near a power source or have an external battery chargers. and if not then at least you can quickly switch to being directly plugged in
there's also a much better chance that I will be able to replace the battery at some point in the future. with bt headphones, they are so small that it would be almost impossible to take it apart successfully
I've only really noticed the degradation in the last month or so, and it's taken maybe ~1 hour off of their initial battery life which doesn't bode well for their longevity :/ I'll look into bluetooth receivers for next time, thank you for the rec!
You aren’t in the minority. You are in the silent majority though. Most people -and really emphasizing most in terms of what people actually buy not what they complain about online- don’t care about a 3.5mm jack.
It’s gone, it’s never coming back. To that end, once iPhone goes USB-C it’ll accelerate this majority non-issue.
Yeah, I hated the concept but then I picked up an iPhone 8 as the most reasonably-sized flagship I could find and willing to make sacrifices for the size.
It was basically a forced upgrade to bluetooth headphones. I bought some bluetooth over-ear ANC headphones like two weeks later and it really hasn't annoyed me at all since.
Ugh, this is not at all a valid comparison. It's extremely tired, too.
The phone MUST create analog audio signals, to drive its own speaker. Denying customers a connector to access it is petty and offensive. Compounding that offense is requiring every listening device to now incorporate redundant D/A converters. Contrary to apologists saying that this enables better quality, it in fact results in wholly unpredictable quality.
Not to mention that your ears will ALWAYS require analog audio. So do billions of amplification devices around the world.
I don't think it's a good comparison for several reasons. 1) Those technologies were already not as heavily used when they were dropped. There are still tons of traditional headphones being manufactured and sold, even years after phones have started dropping them. 2) It's easy to leave an external drive at a desk for occasional use, it's much less convenient to carry a dongle everywhere since you likely want to use headphones on-the-go. 3) This is subjective, but floppy to cd-rom is clearly an upgrade, wireless to wired headphones is not. It adds syncing and battery life problems to an otherwise simple technology.
If you're carrying headphones on the go, how much less convenient is it to carry those same headphones with the adapter on them? I would argue it's exactly the same level of convenience.
> Those technologies were already not as heavily used when they were dropped.
I'll give you it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, but having lived through all there events professionally, I can tell you that's not how it was perceived at the time. At least, not around my offices :-)
I realized I was not going to miss my headphone jack when I plugged in headphones and they didn’t work. Realized I hadn’t plugged in headphones for several months.
> I think I'm in the minority, but I haven't really missed the headphone jack in my iPhone 11
You don't miss it until you do. When you are trying to join a meeting and your bluetooth headset absolutely refuses to work (and yes, even the fancy Airpods Pro do that occasionally), you wish you had the ability to just plug in an old-fashioned, analog headset. Which you can pull easily, with no fuss, from many devices, including computers and gaming consoles. Quick, no pairing required. No battery issues.
Analog headphones are also very cheap(good if you are not in a rich country), and will always be cheaper than bluetooth headphones, as there is minimal hardware required. You can quickly pick one up even from a shady street seller and you know it will work(longevity might suffer, but again, cheap).
The only problem with the headphone jack is that it is a very old standard. It's big connector, and takes significant real state inside a phone.
Might be that some people still remember the Bluetooth from 2010 or so.
These days, I charge my wireless headphones once a week. When I turn them on, they are connected before I have opened the music app. The connection is stable. When I stop playing sound on my phone and start sound on my laptop, they automatically switch to that. Their microphone is perfectly fine for calling people.
I'm sorry, but I don't think this is the case, at least not for me. I actually own a pair of Bluetooth earphones, which I use at the gym. They do well, I don't have to worry about the cable or accidentally hitting the phone in my pocket when picking up weights. They have a reliable connection, sound is decent.
But I have hundreds of dollars invested in good-quality wired headphones, plus wired earbuds, and I want to be able to use those with my phone without needing to re-spend that money. Plus, regardless of quality of the product, I'm occasionally a forgetful human. I've actually run out of juice mid-workout with my wireless set. Instead of not having music for the rest of my workout (I like music!), I simply walked over to my bag, pulled out my wired earbuds, and finished up.
Not having the ability to do that is a deal-breaker for me on a phone, and it's not something that can be fixed by improving the Bluetooth tech. While this is obviously anecdotal, I don't imagine I'm the only person who feels this way.
> But I have hundreds of dollars invested in good-quality wired headphones, plus wired earbuds, and I want to be able to use those with my phone without needing to re-spend that money.
> Not having the ability to do that is a deal-breaker for me
The dongle is small enough to leave attached to your headphones and costs $9. It would be wasteful to include one with the phone, as most would be unused. Clearly you'd prefer a built-in jack, but you have a cheapish option to add this ability.
Saying you can leave a 3.5-to-lightning adapter attached to your headphones assumes that all of your other devices can do audio over lightning also. Realistically, it seems like you'd add or remove the dongle based on what devices you're attaching to, so you probably wouldn't want to actually leave it attached to your headphones.
That was my thinking as well. I honestly hated the lack of headphone jack.
After getting an iPhone XS from work - replacing my iPhone 5 - I found that I would actually just leave the adapter on my headset. If I ever used the headset for anything else I would take it off but immediately replug it after being done.
My conclusion is that it's been waaaaay less of an issue that I honestly expected it to be.
In my experience with a fairly recent and expensive set of bluetooth headphones (Sennheiser Momentum 3), it works well most of the time, but in 5% of cases it does not. If you use your headphones a lot, those 5% get annoying very quickly.
Some issues I've noticed:
- My tv (flagship LG OLED) always has trouble connecting to the headphones. I usually have to turn them off and then back on again at least once. Macbook and iPhone rarely have trouble connecting. Connecting on Windows has always worked so far.
- When I'm connected to both my Windows laptop and my phone, in a skype conference on the laptop and get a call on my phone, the skype conference is automatically terminated. FOR ALL PARTICIPANTS. That's insane.
- To make the previous point even worse: except for the ringtone, the audio from incoming calls never even goes to the bluetooth headphones. The audio from outgoing calls does, however. This is all on an iPhone SE.
- Sometimes when I listen to music, or watch a video on a Windows machine, my bluetooth headphones will just pause the playback every couple of seconds. This only happens on Windows.
- If your headphones are connected to multiple devices, you have absolutely zero control over what is happening. You might be listening to music on your phone, but some notification from your computer will interrupt your playback even though the computer is set to silent.
I could go on and on and I've only been using bluetooth headphones for a month. There is a LOT of polish missing here. That being said, this could be a great technology and it's not too far off at the moment. There certainly are some advantages over wired headphones as well.
I still have a 6s with a headphone jack. I don't use headphones much, but do plug it into our cars (admittedly not as much of an issue lately). One has no bluetooth, one has incompatible bluetooth. Neither have USB input. Both are likely to last at least ten more years. One adapter per car is not going to be the end of the world, but it is an annoyance.
3.5 floppy and CD-ROM are replaced by something that does everything its predecessor does and better. Whereas bluetooth headphones are not 1:1 replacement of analog headphones. e.g. they have a battery, their audio quality is worse.
If this came out six months ago I would have considered buying this vs the iPhone 11 Pro.
The one thing about small phones is that you can operate the phone one handed. The iPhone 6-8 and the SE's design is pretty much at the limit that you could operate the phone one handed.
The batteries on original SE's are seeming to reach end-of-life now so I think I'll still have to jump to this. I've bought 2 used ones and had 2 new ones and they've all got dead/dying batteries.
If thats the only issue with your phone, aftermarket battery replacement service is pretty reasonable. 50 dollar ballpark and takes like 5 minutes. Just have a search in your area for phone repair shops.
I got my first iphone when they were around this price. Nowadays I have a hard time spending ~1k on a new phone, so I end up shopping used.
Granted it’s my personal preference to buy the handset outright, I’m happy to see a hardware refresh on a more budget friendly option for a new iphone.
You say "As a current iPhone SE user... Lack of headphone jack is still unacceptable"
But you're a current user... so clearly you accepted it. And as long as you do (accept it, keep buying phones without headphone jacks) why would anyone change? The message you are sending (in the only way they care about $$$) is that you do in fact accept phones without headphone jacks.
I think you're confused: the original iPhone SE, the one the parent comment is mentioning, has a headphone jack. The new iPhone SE, the one that hasn't been released yet, doesn't.
>>but not sure that'll be possible (maybe I can borrow somebody's iPhone 8).
My SE broke recently and I had to switch to iPhone 8 (They stopped selling SE by then in India). I am able to manage but the form factor is no where as comfortable as the old SE.
>> Price point is, admittedly, fantastic
True for the developed nations but still on the higher side for India and South East Asia. If they could price it at 299 in India it will sell like hot cakes here but iPhone always misses the bus here in India.
My impression of India was that up could either easily afford the iphone or you were in the market for a budget phone. Not much middle market. Is that a correct assumption?
That used to be correct in the past but things have changed here a lot. There is a growing population of the middle class. Nothing compared to what is there in the developed countries but nonetheless with some significant purchasing power.
The mean income of the 90th percentile in India in 2004 was about 113 USD a month.[1] In the next 4 years the GDP has increased ~4x. [2]
Now even if we assume (I don't have data from a study on this) the 90th percentile income doubled, it leaves them with 226 USD a month.
I can say from personal experience that is a modest assumption. My own salary has increased 40x in this time period. If you consider my friends (a sample space of 30) whose salary I keep track, the average increase is around 20x.
Now it is very reasonable (as the phone has become a very personal "being") to assume that someone in this income will spend a month of their salary on their phone.
Now that is a market size of 120 million people and increasing.
On a personal note, I run a operations company of ~40 people and their average salary is ~300 USD a month and everyone has a phone that costs more than 200USD.
So I think it's reasonable to assume Apple is still missing the bus.
1 month of salary for a phone!? Wow, that sounds really expensive. I would think people would prefer to buy used phones from US/Europe instead at a discount.
I had an iPhone 8 and Pixel 2 for a while. Both fit well for average-sized hands and I can barely type on my wife's iPhone SE. I'd consider this one for her but the lack of headphone jack is a problem.
Complete BS 'cons', this product is great, admit it.
1. airpods you peasant
2. my hands are f*king huge anyways this phone is still probably too small
3. already donated to Covid research without going through a corporation, I'll take white.
Why would anyone accept the worst sound quality the market has to offer?
For the price of the AirPods you can get wired ear-buds or over-ears which literally provides you with 10x the sound fidelity and listening experience.
And they all require that good ole’ standards-compliant jack.
When it comes to audio, I’ll only take the best. And the AirPods aren’t even in that competition. Peasant indeed, eh?
Regarding the price point being fantastic - that may be true for an iPhone but not for smartphones in general. For 480€ i can get a pretty high end Xiaomi phone for example. Or three very decent Xiaomi A3 phones with multiple cameras and an OLED screen.
I have come to realize that headphone jack advocates in phones really do seem to be a minority.
* If you use wired headphones on your phone, a dongle is just a few inches of cable
* Most who use wired headphones accept the quality and comfort of apple earpods that plug into the lightning port
* Most people in general who use their phones for audio use bluetooth.
Note: I am using the metric of average American consumer, not other countries.
Those are observations. My personal opinion is that you cannot get much smaller in display size than the 2020 SE without reducing UI functionality or having a pen. I am not sure 2020 apps would function well for any significant number of users with an iPhone SE 2016 form factor.
Also remember, this may be a good market for them to get into, but Apple is doing this so they can use existing parts and processes. This is not a top down design of a compact phone.
---
PS: My personal "Why did you do that" is removing fingerprint. They should have moved it to the back, if they cared about borderless display. Face recognition depends on lighting, and me looking at my phone.
I wasn't following the leaks (if any) but I was excited for this announcement. Looking for a new phone to replace the 6S and this one looked like it might encroach on "small" territory. It's about an inch past the ideal but probably doable (even though it's as big as the 6S) and it's at a great price point but the lack of headphone jack is a single nail in the coffin that does it in for me.
Not a clue yet. The Pixel 4a looks promising, but is once again huge. It's for my wife, so it might come down to whether she prefers that jack or something that fits in her hand, but I'm in this thread to google the other phones here and hopefully find something that checks both boxes.
My significant other got some bluetooth for xmas. (A nice bose since she is wildly anti apple, im not totally clear on why) She was into them for about a month.
With cabled audio it is sort of unavoidable to miss that never having to charge, pair, unpair, removing phone pairing history (example rental car retaining contact info), just plugging in is so clean, reliable. Honestly in the case of BT vs 3.5 jack i believe we invented in reverse order.
She has since stopped using the >$100 Bose and prefers a 20 sony earbud where one of the two ear buds is actually totally smashed (i drove over it, sadly. Shes a total catch.
So the missing audio jack is my only barrier to new iphone SE entry. I wonder whether anyone has considered some pcb+3d printing a slim fitting adapter which might extend the length of a phone but then provide the existing port and add a 3.5. In other words Is there any attempt at integrating the usb c Or lightning to 3.5 adapter into a clean little clip on / case thing.
As an everyday user of FaceID IMO it is superior in every way to TouchID.
However, that’s just an opinion. What’s indisputable is that FaceID enables removal of the Home button, which is also a massive positive in and of itself.
Every iPhone I’ve ever owned that had a Home button ultimately had the first thing to fail be the Home button. Not always a complete failure, but at least a partial failure that would make the phone highly annoying to operate.
Besides the Home button wearing out, it also limits the screen size. A full screen is better in every way. In particular by giving significantly more space for the keyboard to be shown without taking up most of the available vertical space.
And so having a biometric unlock which is (arguably) better is really just 1/3rd of the benefit of FaceID. You get a more durable phone, a phone easier to waterproof, and a more usable phone with a better aspect ratio.
That said, the lack of FaceID on the new SE is extremely disappointing to me. I gather they just couldn’t make the margins work at $399.
Agree with all these points (also an iPhone SE 2016 user). One more point to consider is whether or not the iPhone SE 2016 will continue to get OS updates.
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[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 673 ms ] threadI think this competes better with people considering Android. You could do a lot with $400USD in that market.
That will spur a great deal of people who are refusing to buy iPhones to buy iPhones (+$$$) and convert a certain percentage of bigphone users to smallphone users at a lower pricepoint at the next upgrade cycle (-$$).
It is possible that Apple's usage statistics for old iPhones indicate that the + will be greater than the - while getting a bunch of users off of older lower-performing phones.
(I don’t buy Android because I’ve been bitten by the non-encrypted memory before, and Google isn’t serious about privacy).
I just continually finance the latest phone at 0% interest for ~$40/mo. Trade in every year.
The SE is budget. $40/mo is not budget by any yardstick.
May or may not work though. I have a friend that does this, and one of his kids simply cannot save money. So when there's something he knows that they all want, he buys it for all of them rather than make them save for it.
Where does it end though? A phone in one thing; what about a video game console, or pricey sneakers or brand name clothing from the top streetwear brands?
Rvery day I'm feeling a little more grateful that we had school uniforms where I went. The materialist one-upsmanship was insane even then, but at least for 8 hours/day people weren't walking billboards for "look at how much my parents have spent on me".
They don’t use those things to talk to their friends. Think of how many things are digital-first or digital-only these days. Their phone is how they literally exist among their peers in society. It is non-optional.
iPhones have been shipping with processors a few years ahead of android performance for a while now, and that gives them serious staying power.
TCO is very likely lower for even premium iPhone, and this new model is a steal for the specs.
Not true - I've been using using a $100 Motorola G6 for the past 8 months with no issue. I bought it as a "temporary" replacement when I cracked the screen on my $399 X4 which I had used for 2 years with no issue (silly me, with a price that low I decided to self-insure). I ended up using the G6 as my primary phone because it's pretty good phone and does everything a modern flagship can but with expandable storage via microSD - the only downside is that the camera doesn't take amazing pictures
I’m going to pick up a G6 and see how it goes.
If high end Android phones are usually two years behind iOS in performance, can you imagine how bad a low end or midrange Android phone is?
“You can buy cheap Android but if you go much below $399 you’ll be replacing it a lot more often.”
The Moto G is a cheap phone below $399. It was horribly slow. I was referring to that sentence.
As far as high end phones Benchmarks comparing GPU and web performance for high end Android phones compared to iPhones are readily available.
The iPhone 8 is now two and a half years old and is still faster than any Android phone.
Also, compare the performance of the $329 iPad 6th generation to most Android devices.
https://browser.geekbench.com/mobile-benchmarks
My S7 is on Android 8.1. I have a newer Nokia on Android 10. I don't see any meaningful differences. The Nokia has something called "Digital Wellbeing" which I don't use. Everything else, like Fingerprint unlock and stuff like that has been around a few years now.
The hardware makes most of the difference IMO. The Galaxy S7 camera handily beats the cheap lens of the Nokia.
My last iPhone was the old SE and I had to replace it after it got so bent/broken after 2 years that it could no longer be reasonably repaired.
These phones (android or iOS) tend to last ~2-3 years at our household (2 adults & 2 kids, kids don't have their own phones).
I now have a Google pixel 3a I bought at a sale for €300 & it doesn't feel any less quality-wise than my old iPhone did. And unlike the old SE I don't have to suffer the too small screen (I got the SE cuz it was the cheapest iPhone at the time but 4" was really too small for comfort).
Most people don't think about that, they just think green bubble bad, blue bubble good, but this is one of those rare instances where it's actual technical issues causing the hangup.
In Europe everyone texts on WhatsApp so nobody is left out.
Also it was mostly spam free due to being tied to a phone number.
The price of the phone is split into 24 payments across the standard 2 year contracts from carriers. Failing that, Apple also offers a 1 year interest free loan. So the price of the phone is already taken out of the equation.
I bought two Sony a7ii cameras and a flash for only $1400, because they were used. Full price new, it would've been 3600. They work great, and I can use my money on other things. I see very few reasons to buy new electronics, especially given the security of an iPhone and how easily they are reset.
I find them hard to believe, but I’ve seen various sources saying 80%+ of teens in the US have iPhones.
https://www.sammobile.com/news/samsung-irrelevant-among-u-s-...
I can afford the newer ones, but I don't see the value relative to the four-figure cost.
I loved - LOVED - that phone.
It sits above my personal line of "good enough", though, and every photo will be mangled by $social_network JPEG compression before anybody else sees it anyway.
iOS's new text interface may still push me to Android. The affordances for text on iOS have historically been simple, dependable, and understandable. Now, I find myself struggling to select, copy, and edit text fields. Gesture-based cursor management doesn't work well on small screens.
Best iphone i have ever needed.
I looked into it a bit, and found that this happens when a piece of dust gets into the lens, which steals the focusing of the camera, so it shakes because it oscillates focus from the field of view and the piece of dust. Sadly the camera module needs to be replaced, which can be purchased cheaply but medium tedious difficulty to replace - or pay to have it done not as cheaply.
The other thing that went wrong, also apparently in an OS update, is that TouchID won't work anymore. The hardware isn't recognized.
Current iPhones still struggle in low light photography but I can't see myself caring enough to upgrade to a new flagship anytime soon just to maybe take better pics at night.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Ara
my friends ended up being right, those issues could never be worked out because it’s a fundamental problem. Integrated circuits are more efficient than others and having high performance data and power contacts is wasteful at best, and heavy at worst.
It’s the same as building a computer on a breadboard vs having everything built in like a raspberry pi.
I'd love the fancy camera, but the cost of the flagship seems to be way out of line with the value. I'd rather have a phone + macbook. (I keep computers for 4-5 years and phones for 2-2.5 depending on the battery), so the annualized cost of a fancy iphone is basically the same as a $500 phone + macbook.
It's not like an essential that we can't live without. OnePlus just did a few days back. Do these companies expect people to buy new phones when they're are being laid off or is it just an annual ritual or a desparate move to be the first to capture the market when things become normal?
Any insights please!
I noticed that if you scroll down to the bottom of the press release, they are also accepting orders for the magic iPad keyboard as of today...
What are they going to do? Not sell them and let them just sit in a warehouse?
A ton of people are looking to upgrade their original SE and a lot of people who can work remotely and haven't been laid off are likely doing fine.
I think that's all the insight needed.
Gadgets are seen as a status symbol in some groups, having the newest thing could be more desirable than paying rent to some. There is also still a large group of people that were not laid off, they still want that money.
I do not know about the logistics of manufacture and shipping, there might be a shortage after they sell though the initial launch stock.
For $399, you can buy a device with the computing power of a networked workstation within a lifetime of memory. That lets you dial into e.g. VoIP calls, answer e-mail, manage your calendar and interact with workflow apps.
Put another way, this could be seen as a substitute for a laptop for some users. That's absolutely essential.
it's not? sure seems like it is to me. And if you have to get a new one, maybe it's nice that there's a cheaper one newly on the market?
[0]: https://9to5mac.com/2020/04/13/bloomberg-iphone-12-to-featur...
Don’t take my word for it. Just see this Apple’s iPhone 5 commercial: https://youtu.be/16GkG_uDj_k
Clear as day. “Common sense”.
I'm only halfway joking since looking at their newest handset is still fairly reminiscent with the flat edges: https://www.sony.com/electronics/smartphones/xperia-1m2?cpin...
I got an SE. And now I'm seriously glancing at this new SE. Size is fine for me.
What about ";blue?
Neither does the iPhone 11/Pro they have a very chunky bezel. I was shocked how clunky it actually looks when mine arrived.
Edit : typo
Width: 2.65 inches (67.3 mm)
Height: 5.45 inches (138.4 mm)
Depth: 0.29 inch (7.3 mm)
Weight: 5.22 ounces (148 grams)
This is only a little smaller than my Samsung A40, which is 2.72 x 5.69 x 0.31 in (69.2 x 144.4 x 7.9 mm) and weights less than the SE (4.94 oz - 140 g).
Furthermore the A40 has almost no bezel and this iPhone has a lot of it at the top and bottom of the screen. The screen of the A40 is so large that I wish I could cut a couple of cm off it. It would be large enough, fit better in pockets and weight less.
I am really tempted to get this. I love the small form factor of my SE but I have large hands and the bigger screen might be a bit nice, and I really wish the camera was bit nicer on my current SE
Probably will be changing the battery and keeping my current SE, the new one is not the same form factor. Agreed on the camera.
Truly a night and day difference. When I leave for the day I don't have to think about bringing my charger (although I still do sometimes in case of an emergency)
I get the feeling that I'm part of a large niche with whom the old iPhoneSE saw success by accident.
If anyone knows of a case for the soap-phones that restores more of a hard edge so I can grip it with more confidence....
But bigger, right?
Edit: after re-reading the leaks, it seems like the vanilla 12 is getting the smaller screen and not the Pro. So maybe we won’t have a smaller phone with square sides.
Sadly, it doesn't seem to be uncommon for a company (even Apple) to hit a home run and not understand why it was so successful. And then they're unable to follow up on it.
HyperCard still appears in top-10 lists of "greatest software ever" -- and it's usually the only one which is no longer maintained and doesn't have a modern equivalent.
Likewise, Steve Jobs saw hypercard as the future, wanting it to sync up online between people, being like the future newspaper. It's no longer maintained because it's modern equivalent is a web browser. When Steve came back to Apple he pushed hard for advancing web tech instead.
Everything I've ever read about Hypercard indicates that the opposite is true: neither Jobs nor the company could "see" that Hypercard needed a true network component, nor could they even see the business case for it as time progressed.
123.8 mm (4.87 in) H
58.6 mm (2.31 in) W
7.6 mm (0.30 in) D
Mass 113 g (4.0 oz)
New iPhone SE:
Height: 5.45 inches (138.4 mm)
Width: 2.65 inches (67.3 mm)
Depth: 0.29 inch (7.3 mm)
Weight: 5.22 ounces (148 grams)
(Copy-pasted from various places on iPad, sorry about inconsistencies)
Percent — Height +11.8%, Width +14.9%, Depth -4.0%, Mass +31.0%
Metric — Height +14.6mm, Width +8.7mm, Depth -0.3mm, Mass +35g
Imperial — Height +0.58in, Width +0.34in, Depth -0.01in, Mass +1.22oz
If it’s any consolation, consistent rumors have been pointing to a new, smaller size added to the flagship lineup this fall. It will supposedly have a similar footprint to the 5 series, but with the bezel-less screen like the modern models.
https://www.macrumors.com/roundup/iphone-12/
I went from an iPhone 6 to an iPhone SE instead of the 8 over the size.
The 5 had a 4" screen and 5.4" footprint.
An "all-screen" phone with a 5.4" display would be have the footprint of an iPhone 5, like I said. (and that's an 8 Plus — not just an 8 — sized screen)
((still too big, imho, I want something in the iPhone 4 footprint, but I'll take what I can get))
https://imgix.bustle.com/inverse/17/df/7b/88/27fe/4afe/aff4/...
As an SE fan, I would happily, HAPPILY pay $1000 every two years to keep getting upgraded internals in the current form factor.
Yes Apple, I'm sure it's harder to fit those parts in a smaller case. That's why you should charge me more!
It's not a matter of Ludditry. That form factor is ergonomically ideal for a certain kind of phone use. That's precisely why it was so successful for so long.
edit: I think this is a very real, but subconscious aspect of Apple culture and it exists across all of the product lines. Phones just happen to be one of their biggest products.
The original SE was the first iphone that made me think of switching, because of that form factor...
I'd assume the iPhone SE is always going to follow the look and feel of the higher-end iPhones, maybe lagging behind a generation or so.
The SE is the previous iPhone design. Before that happened to be the iPhone 5/S, now it's the iPhone 6/7/8 design. There are likely a lot of people with iPhone 6, 6S, and 7 that might upgrade but don't want to spend $700+ and lose the home button.
I don't think the SE was targeted at small phone lovers, it just happened to be that since that's the manufacturing and design they had already created for the 5 and 5S.
Rumor is that the iPhone 12 this fall will include a smaller 5.4" model. This would actually be smaller than the 4.7" SE given that the screen goes to the edges. That's likely the "premium small phone" replacement, not this new 4.7" SE.
https://imgix.bustle.com/inverse/17/df/7b/88/27fe/4afe/aff4/...
5.4" iPhone 12
6.1" iPhone 12
6.1" iPhone 12 Pro
6.7" iPhone 12 Pro
Given that the 5.4" phone will probably be in the $600-700 range like the current iPhone 11.
https://twitter.com/jon_prosser/status/1247161866603958273/p...
I've had my iPhone 8 for almost 2 years and now I'm working from home I've taken it out of it's case to fully enjoy the design.
Honestly, probably easier to hold a live fish than this bloody phone.
At least wit rounded edges the after-case size can be smaller.
Given the choice between a thin phone that needs a case and a phone that is as thick as a thin phone with a case that is more durable, possibly has a headphone jack and a slightly larger battery, I would personally go for the latter.
When I had an iPhone 3G and iPhone 4, I did not use a case. All I used was a vinyl decal to protect the back, and I was fine.
IIRC, my Moto G and Moto X Play were fine without an add-on case. All I used on those was a tempered glass screen protector.
I agree the look and feel is WAY better without a case, but after breaking multiple screens, it's a case-life for me :(
Maybe this group that you described is a small minority now?
If that's true there will be 5 distinct iPhone models released in one year, which I think is a new record for iPhone model diversity.
Check out these stats from a year ago. On this app (which has a broad appeal), the 6/6S/7/8 had a 47% share. iPhone 5s/SE had 11%
The old SE form factor is great! And those who like it, like it a lot. But you're clearly wrong if you take that to mean that the new SE form factor is an unpopular one.
https://david-smith.org/blog/2019/06/24/the-popularity-of-th...
When they released this SE, it is the previous generation phone design with updated internals at a lower price point.
I don't think Apple's intention was to get all of the "I like tiny phones" people to upgrade and they somehow just missed the mark. They know who they want to buy this phone, it just doesn't happen to be one group of people who liked the old SE.
The small form factor is really nice to have. Some people don't want a gigantic phone, it's true. Maybe we are in the minority, but a huge phone is inconvenient at the times where you don't need a big screen. I still can't even unlock the thing without having my big dumb face directly in front of it.
The screen is gorgeous OLED and it's terrific to watch Youtube/Netflix on in bed. The camera is incredible. A foldable phone would clearly be the most practical, but I know Apple won't ever do that, and I won't switch to Android. At this point, I just have this stupid thing attached to me at all times, and I'll have to accept it. You ever try running with a damn X/XS/XR or god forbid one of the Max phones strapped to your arm?
But my point is that just because people have gotten used to bigger and bigger phones, doesn't mean that they wouldn't appreciate it being smaller 99% of the time. Like I just mentioned, running or even going for a walk wearing gym shorts with one of these devices in your pocket is pretty much impossible. They are too large and weigh too much, flailing around and whacking you in the knees. I have a battery charging case which admittedly adds more weight, but it literally pulls my shorts down when I go for a brisk walk with my dog.
So to call those who desire a small phone a "hilariously small and vocal minority" sounds to me like "people are in denial that a bigger phone is always better" when that most certainly is not true. It has benefits but I still think they should have kept the SE2 the same size (4") as the SE. The ideal solution would be a phone that can be big OR small depending on situation.
Much like the concept of a touch screen as pitched by Jobs himself during the initial iPhone reveal (context-sensitive buttons/keyboards depending on what you currently need vs. a static keyboard), you can't tell me that the vast majority wants a huge phone every hour of the day.
I'm just saying that the SE would have sold better or people would have been more upset about the discontinuation, or the Xperia compact line would have sold well...but people want a big screen. It's proven by the market. I'm not saying there isn't a market for a small phone, I'm just saying that there is a much bigger market for a larger phone. (and the original comment claimed the design wasn't popular because it wasnt 4/5 sized) The companies are not idiots out there, all of them went to larger phones because the majority of people prefer them. (Notably the older crowd with worse vision that came onboard to smartphones in the early 2010s and the crowd that got addicted to apps.) I loved my 5S back in the day but the larger screen is much better when you actually use it in depth.
Imagine my surprise when I got an Apple Watch with cellular specifically to avoid having to take my phone with me. Absolutely absurd - and it's obvious why - they want you to use Apple Music. I refuse to be forced into using a piece of software. And before someone comes back with the inevitable "well you should have researched it":
1) I never thought such a simple and obvious concept would be absent from the Apple Watch, and 2) I use the Watch for the utility of fitness tracking, and that far outweighed the inconvenience of having to continue bringing my phone with me everywhere. I'm not a big runner anyway, usually mountain biking, and my phone is in my backpack or mounted to my handlebars.
Bottom line is it's ridiculous.
EDIT: I did some research on this again and it appears that Apple actually does allow developers to stream and store data from the watch, and that it's Spotify who have yet to release an update for their WatchOS app that provides that functionality. Interesting turn of events; at least I know it's theoretically possible and not gated by Apple.
It's good to see more downward pressure coming from flagship phones lately, imo. It's a great analog to the Pixel "a" models and an overall smartphone trend that I'm very positive about!
I think it's a direct response to that pressure.
If GOOG designs Pixels w/Exynos chips (per recent rumors), they'll likely be cheaper than the Snapdragon ones. That will put even more downward pressure on these prices.
This new one is exactly the same size as the 6, 7, and 8 that have been available for years...what about it has changed the situation for you?
Original SE:
123.8 mm (4.87 in) H
58.6 mm (2.31 in) W
7.6 mm (0.30 in) D
New 2020 SE:
138.4 mm (5.45 in) H
67.3 mm (2.65 in) W
7.3 mm (0.29 in) D
Camera is sticking out.
Edges are over-bevelled.
But at least they kept Touch ID.
SE: 5.45" x 2.65" Pixel: 5.79" x 2.71"
In terms of (1), the SE is in line with the Nexus 5 (and actually less wide), whilst the Pixel 4 is slightly bigger in all dimensions:
In terms of (2), a 4.7" screen with a 16:9 ratio is far easier to reach the top corners of than on a 5.7" that's 19:9. Yes, there is a bit less bezel on the Pixel 4 but it'll still be very difficult to reach the top one-handed with the taller screen.Specs source:
[N5] https://www.gsmarena.com/lg_nexus_5-5705.php
[SE] https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_se_(2020)-10170.php
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209044
but iOS still needs profiles. i'm really surprised they haven't done this yet. i wonder if google has patents that make this too expensive (or impossible) to do on iOS.
Well, found my new iOS test phone.
Pros:
* Feature set in terms of processor, camera, etc., is exactly what I want
* Continued presence of Touch ID is a huge plus, I don't like Face ID
* Price point is, admittedly, fantastic
Cons:
* Lack of headphone jack is still unacceptable
* Form factor is, candidly, still too big for my tiny hands
* Color schemes aren't as nice as the SE's (can I contribute to COVID-19 research without getting a bright red phone?)
I will be considering this phone, but skeptically. Would be ideal for me to be able to physically hold one before buying, but not sure that'll be possible (maybe I can borrow somebody's iPhone 8).
You're not wrong, but seriously, what is wrong with the world?
That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm already not buying iPhones. The only reason I'd ever mention it anymore is when I see comments like this.
> You might as well give up on the headphone jack bud.
There's no reason to give up on headphone jacks.
> Finally, it has to be pointed out that people who complain about this omission underestimate how much internal space a headphone jack wastes in a phone.
I can't be underestimating it if I'm not estimating it. Some phones have jacks. Some don't. I buy the ones with jacks. I don't notice a difference in size.
Headphone jacks are not necessarily considered a premium feature by all phone users.
They are by some, as is evident, but that view cannot be taken for granted — even here at HN.
Neither is a large screen, indeed I consider large portable electronics to be decidedly non-premium.
A premium feature is something I'm willing to spend money on - a phone the physical dimentions of a traditional SE, with a 3.5mm jack, dual sim cards, a modern processor, and a decent amount of storage.
Others may have other views on what premium is.
I'd like to have a phone with a better screen and a nicer camera, and I'd even be willing to pay a lot of money for one, but those features just aren't worth the loss of my headphone jack.
The one thing I could see being worth my headphone jack is a folding screen, but it seems like we're still a ways away from those being durable enough. (And if some company does ever decide to put a headphone jack in a folding phone, that's the one I'll buy.)
If I need to power the phone at the same time, I have a USB-C -> headphone and USB-C dongle. I keep that one in the car. It cost about 5 bucks.
Can you not do this with Apple kit?
I can't keep the adapter plugged into my headphones indefinitely, because then I wouldn't be able to connect them to my other devices (multiple computers, etc).
Or, if you want good headphones, then just let in the missionaries who've been telling you to accept Bluetooth as your Lord and Savior. (There are some really good Bluetooth headphones nowadays—studio-monitor quality audio, enough battery life to get through a working day, and <$200. I refused Bluetooth until headphones surpassed this bar, but they eventually did, about two years ago.)
I just don't want to carry two sets of headphones around with me. Currently, I keep my single pair in my back pocket, so I have them with me everywhere and I can use them with everything.
To be sure, the world would not end if I had to carry around two sets of headphones instead of one. But then, I don't need a faster phone either! New phones today are only adding marginal improvements, and the absence of a headphone jack is a bigger inconvenience by comparison.
Re: Bluetooth, the problem is that switching devices is still finicky. If you only use Apple products the Airpods do a good job at switching devices, but I sometimes use PCs. Also, I lose headphones frequently, and Bluetooth headphones are still expensive.
Many people just leave the Lightning earbuds plugged into their iPhone and wind them around the phone, putting the whole assembly into their pocket. (I've damaged enough cables of expensive devices that I've developed a tic against doing that, but in the case of the iPhone earbuds, it seems to be exactly what they're designed to do, judging by the extra plasticizer in the cable shielding that's not necessary for comfortable wearing and makes them degrade faster under UV.)
> and Bluetooth headphones are still expensive.
Have you checked Amazon lately? There are (high-quality!) $30 wireless earbuds from reputable brands.
So my MacBook Air for instance (the 11 inch model, small enough to comfortably carry under my arm and use on the subway) doesn't really have a place to store headphones. And permanently wrapping headphones around my phone would get annoying quickly.
Again, these are nitpicks and there are ways I could adapt. But it would be inconvenient. I have a headphone jack, and it works.
> Have you checked Amazon lately?
I have not. The main problem really is switching between devices. And to a lesser extent, the Nintendo Switch's lack of Bluetooth audio support.
IIRC, they make a slimline adapter that you can stick to your Switch that gives it Bluetooth support. If you've got it jailbroken, you can also just enable it in software.
IIRC Nintendo gave their reason for not enabling it by default as not wanting to interfere with the controllers.
FWIW, most bluetooth headphones also offer 3.5mm corded options. Just use the bluetooth when necessary/convenient, and the cord the rest of the time.
Edit: Oh, but then I totally forgot in this whole discussion—if it's Bluetooth I'll also have to remember to charge my damn things! Bleh. Still would like to see an example though!
Typically on sale for $250. 30-hour battery life.
You won't find this (that I know of) with earbud types.
> You won't find this (that I know of) with earbud types.
Ah, yeah, that's why I hadn't seen this. Can't really put headphones like these in my back pocket!
[1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07L9SL7ZT
Plus, it's still much easier to plug in the cable than go through the pairing dance.
why is this downvoted? these are facts. i just presented some examples from other manufacturers.
Just market segmentation? I'm not an Apple expert, but it does not seem like something they do.
Either way, I'm going to upgrade as the 1st gen SE camera is showing its age. Everything else about the 1st gen is still good enough for me.
The lightning+3.5mm bodge jacks retain the functionality at a reduction in usability, but just about work for a non-premium product.
An SE case with an upgraded processor would have been perfectly good.
All I'm saying is, lots of people who are going on and on about the headphone jack are upset out of principle, even though it won't actually degrade their user experience to a meaningful degree. I'm not saying it was the right decision, necessarily, but I'm saying you'll have a better time if you just accept it and move forward. It really isn't that bad.
Edit: Personally I only ever charge at night, and only ever use headphones when I'm walking around/driving somewhere. I guess battery life varies, but I also suspect that a lot of people are eagerly charging at every opportunity, even if they'd last the day without doing so. My XS lasts two days on a charge, usually.
Plugged in, with music. For as many hours each day as the power banks would allow.
Aside from headphones? March 15th, the last time I took a train (been at home due to covid since then)
> And when was the last time you needed to charge it and listen to music at the same time?
Last night, when I was watching futurama in bed
Now when it comes to both cases, the answer would again be March 15th, when I had my phone plugged into my laptop providing limited connectivity, my headphones plugged into my phone listening to (offline) spotify. I then unplugged my headphones from the phone and plugged into my laptop to listen to a short video, then back into my phone to continue to listening to music.
This is possible with a lightning+3.5mm jack dongle, but it's not as nice an experience as with the superior iphone of yesteryear.
With some Bluetooth headphones you could just listen to both devices at the same time without plugging / switching anything. It also has upsides.
I don't deny there are benefits of bluetooth, but there are benefits from a 3.5mm jack too.
A £50 mixer takes these inputs (almost all from 3.5mm sources) and brings them all together via a reliable tactile interface.
On the road of course I only tend to have to choose between 2 sources, so perhaps beats can approach the utility of a 3.5mm audio cable.
If a phone would have to cater to all these edge cases we'd still have serial ports on them.
As I say, I can live with a dongle for 3.5mm or serial (despite it being a regression), it's just another straw.
The certainty and simplicity of an audio jack is not valueless though, no matter how many people on HN say it is.
Nobody is saying that audio jacks are valueless in general, just that it's reasonable for a mass market device where it has value for a small % of people to not have it.
I hear a lot about the inconvenience of wired headphones, but as a daily user of wired headphones, that's not something I experience. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the costs (financial and environmental) of switching to Apple's disposable wireless headphones.
I was annoyed when Apple initially got rid of the headphone jack but I've been without it for quite some time now and it's not really a bother. Even if you have to charge while having the wired headphones in, there is a dongle for that. I suppose if that's a very frequent use case, I can see the annoyance.
My last iPhone that had the headphone jack required frequent cleaning of the jack or else it would get clogged with accumulated dust and make the speaker very quiet.
The downsides of "AirPods Pro"
1) They go in my ear, which is uncomfortable
2) They need charging
3) They presumably are trivial to lose
4) They cost about 50 times as much as hook earphones.
> Watching a show in bed, you won’t have cables tangling up
I don't have cables tangling up.
> You won’t be frustrated with trying to listen to music while charging your phone on a train
I'm not, because I have a jack on my phone and I don't use bluetooth and thus suffer from deciding which host they should be connected to at any given time
[0] https://www.teknistore.com/en/on-ear-and-over-ear-headphones...
That doesn't happen to my £5 ear phone because it's connected to my phone, which itself is connected to the mains.
Your comment is such a first-world response.
Not music, but phone calls. Working remotely means I spend a lot more time on the phone, and only recently I was frustrated by the fact that I could not charge my phone and use headphones on a call at the same time.
Well, I listen to audiobooks while walking in the Scottish mountains and 10+ hour days are possible and when running multiple apps (OS maps, Endomondo, Audible) I do need to charge and use my phone at the same time (I have a dual lightning/headphone adapter that supports charging and listening at the same time).
https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/
And I've been watching these videos to stay (relatively) sane these last few weeks:
https://www.youtube.com/user/wilkiemurray
Prior to the last 8 weeks? Not very often.
Over the next 8 weeks? I expect every day still.
Over the next year or two? 40% chance that it'll still be happening regularly.
It's been a while, because I dropped my adapter down somewhere in the center console of my car, past the hand brake, so it's gone. I've been burning CDs instead. A CD burner only costs about as much as 3 of those adapters and the media's dirt cheap.
[EDIT] before that, daily.
What exactly is the benefit to not having a 3.5mm jack?
However, a wireless cigarette lighter adapter that supports Bluetooth is much more convenient either way.
For me personally, Bluetooth headphones in general and AirPods Pro in particular are much more convenient - especially going back and forth between my cellular watch when I am jogging or in the gym (pre-Covid),my phone, my iPad, my laptop, and my AppleTV. Besides cords get tangled, yanked out, caught on things, etc.
You're free to use Bluetooth headphones even if you have a headphone jack; being able to use them doesn't seem like a "benefit" of not having the jack.
People have been complaining about Apple getting rid of things since the original iMac got rid of the 3-1/2 drive. High end android phones from Google and Samsung got rid of the headphone jack also.
I've yet to see anything that makes the removal of a 3.5mm jack seem comparable. You couldn't use DVI or HDMI without replacing the port, which isn't the case with Bluetooth (which you can use regardless of having a 3.5mm jack or not).
A more apt comparison in my eyes seems like wireless mice/keyboards. They don't have cords so they're significantly nicer for cable management, look better on your desk, have longer reach, and probably have other benefits (as well as their own set of tradeoffs like latency, battery, etc). You can use them now or you can use wired versions... but just imagine if a company started selling computers where you could _only_ use wireless keyboard/mice unless you bought USB dongles. Sure, you could just buy the dongles and deal with the loss of choice/convenience, but... why would you want to?
You mean like the one port MacBook that once you plugged it in for power you had to use wireless accessories, the current MacBook Air and 13” MacBook Pro that only has two ports - but once you plug in power and a monitor you don’t have any ports left?
Anecdotally, it seems like each HN thread about new macbooks also has plenty of comments from people complaining about the lack of ports and/or wishing for more. I don't see a lot of people saying the equivalent of, "Apple's never gonna bring those ports back, get over it and get used to it."
Any time I get on a flight longer than 3 hours or so
When I've been using my phone a lot during the day but want to listen to music while I do dishes before bed
Even in newer cars, it's the same kind of choice reduction you see on phones, though. With a jack you can choose whether you want wired or wireless audio; without a jack you're still with wireless all the time, even when wired would be more convenient.
However I think use cases like air travel or just hanging out at home with a low battery are less rare. These can be partially mitigated w/ wireless charging, but when I use a wireless battery pack on a flight my phone and tablet don't do a great job actually staying in place, and necessities lowering the tray which is annoying
Connecting a portable music player to car radios tended to go
* 3.5mm cassttee input
* FM transmitter input (for cars with CD, not cassette)
* 3.5mm aux input
Power was a 12V cigarette lighter.
During all of this the output from the mp3 lpayer was a 3.5mm device.
It was only relatively recently (say in the last 7 years) that most cars started getting USB and bluetooth sockets that took audio connections. Even then there are issues - my 2016 skoda's airplay doesn't play music properly - it frequently skips, I have to use bluetooth to get skipless sound, which means not using maps.
Having USB audio input as standard was even more recently than that - I hired a newish car about 3 years ago which had nothing by a 3.5mm input and 12V jack.
More importantly, though, removing the headphone jack is just plain stupid. Why should I support stupidity with my hard-earned money?
I'm doing it right now... I do it multiple times every day... And if I wasn't at home due to Covid I'd be doing so even more often.
On planes - although I guess it will be a while before I go on a flight again.
But that is patently untrue.
1. I used to have a bunch of cheap, working headsets everywhere - laptop backpack, car, office, home. That whole use case and convenience is GONE.
2. If I was somewhere and needed to take a concall, I could just borrow anybody's headset. No longer the case.
3. Instead of having a good pair of headphones for 2 decades, I now have to buy new bluetooth headphones with unreplaceable battery and aging standards every few years, and worry about charging them etc.
My life has been so much worse since my employer switched to iPhone, that I wrote to my boss, project manager, practice lead, and in the end CFO. And not because "I'm one of those people" - I spend 3-6hrs a day on calls, and life just sucks now. (for those who think Airpods are "fine for calls" - yes. For YOU. Not for other 20 people on the call who have to hear everything happening in 5 miles radius of you. And heaven help us if multiple Airpods join the call!)
So even if we say life got worse for - whatever: 10%, 5%, 1% of population - how has it gotten BETTER for you guys that don't happen to have a need for a jack? The phone is not smaller, it doesn't have a better battery life, etc.
I just don't see the argument here other than "I don't need it, so nobody should have it".
I've now spent several hundred dollars on the best-reviewed, bluetooth headset for my conference calls, and it's nowhere near as good, or convenient, as my $29.99 wired headsets.
Yes we shouldn't have to, yes it's a step backwards, yes it's not as good, but I suspect it would save you a lot of problems.
Don't let perfect (a phone company making a phone with a standard cabled audio interface) be the enemy of good (a solution for your problem).
It now becomes either something I have to carry around with me always; or buy one for each 3.5mm headset I've stashed.
Add the poor reliability and performance, and we come back to your point:
"Yes we shouldn't have to, yes it's a step backwards, yes it's not as good"
Exactly. So I will absolutely do whatever I can to make my life easier - but I also refuse to pretend this does not make my life needlessly harder - once again, for no obvious gain for those who defend the decision.
Phone jack is inherently different than all the Firewire/Zip drive items. There are literally thousands of technologies, interfaces and standards that live and die like fireflies. But the phone jack is a century old and still works perfectly well, and we have replaced it WITH the technology of the day - who thinks their $300 Bluetooth Bose will work 20 years from now? Or seemlessly plug in to each device they use?
"I've now spent several hundred dollars on the best-reviewed, bluetooth headset for my conference calls, and it's nowhere near as good, or convenient, as my $29.99 wired headsets"
You could buy 50 3.5mm+lightning dongles for several hundred dollars, and stick them on the end of each headset, which sounds more convenient than messing around with bluetooth.
I was thinking of the terrible headsets that some collegues use -- they have USB-A plugs on the end, for laptops. Not sure what they do if they want to join a call from their phone (say out walking). My 3.5mm tip+ring+ring+sheild headphones works on laptops and phones, seems far superior to their single-use devices. But western economy is built around selling you something new every 2-4 years, so needs obsoleting.
Every single moment of "oh, I'll just plug my phone into the AUX... oh. right." is not "out of principle". It's made especially stark when contrasted with other devices: right now I'm 3.5mm'd into a 2019 MacBook for Zoom; I can trivially replug into the iPad next to me, but if I want to do the same with the equivalent era iPhone, I have to walk out of the room, root through a bag for the adapter, or go find the AirPods (hoping they're charged), probably re-select them as the output, while accepting the loss in quality from the old-school cans.
It's not some hypothetical: it's literally decades of habit and muscle memory, throwing away a simple and universal technology that worked insanely well. I can forgive this sort of short-term sacrifice for a transition to a better world: floppy for USB, HDMI for USB-C. One can debate whether the loss is necessary, but usually once we're on the other side, the new standard is inherently superior across every metric.
This is not the case for wired to wireless audio. Though I love the AirPods, they still have batteries, which still run down (short term, and long term). It's always more of a hassle to swap bluetooth connections than just replugging cables. If I want to not share my audio with the world, I can be 1000% sure of that by plugging in a cable, as opposed to the ephemeral "is my computer paired right now, and if so to what?", which could change at any moment when signal is lost or a battery dies. Sure, there's dongles, which is yet another piece of tech junk to juggle and find and lose, and which never seem to be around when you actually need it.
Imagine you went to your bookshelf to grab something to read, only to discover that your curated and beloved collection has all been pulped, and a Kindle with their contents is now in its place. Bezos enthusiastically tells you how much better the Kindle is, and how brave he is for "upgrading" you. That is how we feel. It's one thing to decide to make this sort of transition yourself; when a massive corporation does it on your behalf, "for your own good", yeah, we're gonna get peeved.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07YFMNZ6T
You just can't charge and listen to music at the same time...
It's why I avoided the 10.
But damn it's one of my favourite features! Until Wuhan Flu happened because I wear a mask outside so I have to type my pass code in :(
Other than the mask issue. I'm convinced Face ID > Touch ID.
Edit: Wow people super upset over me liking Face ID.
Edit: here is an example of the sort of low-rent, repetitive thread that such things lead to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22886052. Would you please stop feeding this here? It's the sort of thing this site is explicitly not for.
I am very frustrated as the SE is really getting to end of life. I have bought 3 of them in the past month from various eBay sellers with good feedback. One fake, one had a badly degraded battery, and the other went into a reset loop after a couple weeks. There's not much out there. Apple's privacy is second to none, usability is very good (though if they introduce one more type of swiping I'm going to go mad. What's next, Force Swiping?), but the hardware is getting extremely inconvenient. Even my buddy who has large hands complains that the phone is too big and heavy.
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMX62AM/A/lightning-to-35...
And they come with free lightning headphones in the box.
Yes, it's another thing you can lose, but in practice I don't think it's really a problem -- certainly not the issue that would decide a phone for me, since rarely are all other specs equal.
Seems to me you can assume that’s about to end.
[0]: https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/26/ios-14-devices-rumor/
Yes. Write a check. Mail the check. Done.
Apple doesn't offer low key signaling. You're either a brow beater or a stealth support of charity.
The Red iPhone is signaling and that's the whole premise of Product Red. The charity appeals to vane people who feel the need to show off and exploits them for good.
You're projecting right now. So hard.
So you can buy a space grey iPhone from Apple and support Product Red? This I was not aware of.
But I appreciate that you're willing to read through an entire thread and then take my last comment completely out of context for your "witty" response.
Yes you can purchase any Apple device you want AND donate to the charity. You can also forgo the device and just donate to the charity, but we weren't talking about either of those scenarios.
The online payments feature I've seen in mobile banking is just a website front-end on printing a physical check and putting it in the mail.
I don't know how to get it. I use proprietary apps for that.
Too late.
but it seems very backward in many ways.
In America we have both checks and online banking. It seems very backwards to have only one method of doing things.
A single point of failure is a hallmark of a bad system.
I can live with all that cons... EXCEPT for size! It's too big...
[0] https://palm.com/pages/product
Yes there are some occasions where it doesn't work well (when you're trying to unlock the phone without looking at it properly) but there are also many occasions where it works much better. Most of the time my phone now unlocks so smoothly that I don't even realise it was locked. So on balance I think FaceID would actually be a plus.
FaceID introduced a huge swath of new failure modes while simultaneously reducing security. Not acceptable.
- not working with gloves on
- not working when too hot (sweat) or too cold (?)
- changing your grip to get a good print placement
But why would gloves cause trouble with FaceID? Apart from the fact that you probably shouldn't touch your phone with your gloved hand to begin with.
They cause trouble with TouchID. That's the comparison.
I wouldn’t argue that Apple drop FaceID, but at least put the fingerprint censor back, so we can choose between ToucID or FaceID. I believe that many would choose TouchID.
Touch ID is much more convenient and reliable in my opinion.
Touch ID also doesn't have to use heuristics to "guess" if your face might be in front of the phone so that it should look for your face to unlock. The presence of the thumb/finger is the signal.
I also prefer the phone to have a home button than not to have one. Missing the home button made other buttons' functions overloaded, so now I often inadvertently trigger Apple Pay by double-clicking the side button when I didn't mean to.
Basically, I think there are a number of subtle UX regressions that they introduced when they made this change, and it wasn't really worth it. It's not a disaster, just a series of minor annoyances that I'd prefer to do without.
TouchID is still almost always better than FaceID. Unless you don't have a thumb, I suppose.
Found the opposite, it actually worked far worse than I expected. I can no longer use my phone in bed without having to hold it right up to my face because the tech only works one way up.
Found the rest of the innovations it brought underwhelming, like it can tell when I look away for 10 seconds to dim the screen but it doesn't undim it when I look back or the utterly confusing logic for showing me full notifications or not. The amount of times I've had to unlock my phone just to check through notifications is crazy.
My iPhone 11 consistently feels like a downgrade in user experience from my 7, even the camera everyone raves so much about doesn't seem that much better to justify how much of the case it now takes up.
Yes, I'd be leaning towards trading my SE in for this except for the headphone jack which I use a lot. Now I'll have to wait and see if iOS 14 supports my phone.
Otherwise this looks like a solid improvement. $400 is the north end of what I'm willing to pay before I look at refurbs and last year's model.
It's really frustrating. I use my phone to listen to music at work, and while I'm far from being an audiophile, things like a tinny high end are still annoying. Where Apple has spent so much time marketing to creatives, you'd think they would pay more attention to something like this. My impression, though, is that they're so caught up with the cash cow that is AirPods and wireless Beats headphones that they just don't care anymore.
In any case, thanks for sharing. These test results are definitely reassuring.
It may be that you’re used to hearing certain artefacts from other sources (eg you get totally different harmonics near the upper limit of a valve amp compared to a solid state one), or that the headphones could not be driven at a sufficiently high voltage. But the dac in the dongle is either the same as or better than all the dacs in iPhones with 3.5mm jacks so having a headphone jack wouldn’t help there.
The removal of the headphone jack was something seen as treasonous for Apple to do at first, but then they will then tell you to purchase wireless earphones instead. Making it impossible to listen to music without being discovered via bluetooth trackers / scanners.
If those aren't problems for you, then it seems to be a reasonable buy for other customers who bought older phones. But if it were me, I would buy one in a year and a half when the price eventually drops further.
+1
This is critical for me.
As someone frequently getting pinky finger injuries from holding my phone, I feel you.
Popsockets are a solution, but an annoying one that changes the form factor my phone and doubles as a potent trigger for fidgeting.
Still changes the form factor, but without the fidgeting problem. The case makes it easy to pop the phone in and out if you need the original form factor.
I was thinking the same till I bought an iPhone 11. The tiny adapter for 10 bucks is not that much of a hassle. I have one in my backpack and one at my workplace. I also bought a wireless charger. All that is not expensive compared to the phone itself.
The battery page in settings, under Battery Health should tell your capacity and other info. for me a new battery fixed everything... and batteries aren't usually covered under warranty as far as I know in general but Apple replaced it for me. FedEx Overnighted it to their repair center in California, and then back. So only without a phone for a few days. Kinda like a brand new phone just by changing the battery.
I know the OS itself prompted me to get a repair. Got a popup when restarting about a unexpected shutdown. So maybe that helped with the replacement process.
Another option is to get a battery replacement kit from iFixit.[1] I did that and it doubled my SE's battery life.
1. https://www.ifixit.com/Store/iPhone/iPhone-SE-Replacement-Ba...
While you think it's unacceptable the rest of the world has moved on a long time ago.
This whining over the headphone jack is getting old. Inconvenient? For some. Unacceptable? Only to a tiny fringe faction. Get over yourself.
Sorry, you can't have IP67 water resistance with that 3.5mm headphone jack.
Edit: a lot of folks proved me wrong. I feel that I need to clarify: Apple's design goal is to make it thiner, more integrated, less components more battery space and unified input/output interface, all that combined with water resistance, is not practical. All the 3.5mm examples I am seeing doesn't attempt to make it thin and light albeit water resistant.
There are some water-resistant phones with a headphone jack and an IP68 rating even. The LG V30 for example is a beast. Semi-regular usage on rainy days works without any issues. Even using it as a flashlight it survived 30min of pouring rain. I had to wait for the USB-C port to dry up to charge it after getting home, but it still survived without any damage whatsoever.
Other phones that are both water-resistant and have a jack [1]:
* Pixel 3a
* Galaxy S10
* Huawei P30
* and a lot more
If I remember correctly, Apple tried to justify its removal due to its size and water-resistance. I wonder when (not if) Apple will remove the power plug due to "water-resistance" and insist on using Qi charging (even though it has worse efficiency[2]) and cloud services instead of transferring data via cable.
[1]: https://www.androidauthority.com/phones-with-headphone-jack-...
[2]: https://www.wirelesspowerconsortium.com/data/downloadables/1...
I hated not having the headphone jack for a long time. But AirPods (which I do love) have taken care of that problem.
Not going to lose sleep over the color schemes because I will be buying a case for it anyway. That's how my current SE has lasted so long!
I think I'm in the minority, but I haven't really missed the headphone jack in my iPhone 11. I have the Echo earbuds, and those have been good to great for my use cases.
This continues to feel a bit like the 3.5 floppy and CD-ROM removals from the Mac: a lot of people hated it, until it was a nonissue.
While I got the Airpods Pro when they launched and loved them at first, the battery degradation and seemingly worse ANC performance has really irked me given their price. I've also tried using cheaper wireless earbuds, but their connectivity can be spotty. I know it's not the worst issue, but I do miss being able to take a pair of wired earbuds and use them freely between my laptop and phone and not have to worry about their battery lives.
I think bluetooth receivers are the way to go. you get the wireless aspect for the most part and can change track/volume without having to take out your phone.
you can use it any headphones or earbuds you have
with the fiio one I own, you can charge it while using it so you are never caught if you are near a power source or have an external battery chargers. and if not then at least you can quickly switch to being directly plugged in
there's also a much better chance that I will be able to replace the battery at some point in the future. with bt headphones, they are so small that it would be almost impossible to take it apart successfully
It’s gone, it’s never coming back. To that end, once iPhone goes USB-C it’ll accelerate this majority non-issue.
It was basically a forced upgrade to bluetooth headphones. I bought some bluetooth over-ear ANC headphones like two weeks later and it really hasn't annoyed me at all since.
The larger problem with modern phones is the form factor.
The phone MUST create analog audio signals, to drive its own speaker. Denying customers a connector to access it is petty and offensive. Compounding that offense is requiring every listening device to now incorporate redundant D/A converters. Contrary to apologists saying that this enables better quality, it in fact results in wholly unpredictable quality.
Not to mention that your ears will ALWAYS require analog audio. So do billions of amplification devices around the world.
There's no excuse.
How, in any way, is that "much less convenient"?
I'll give you it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, but having lived through all there events professionally, I can tell you that's not how it was perceived at the time. At least, not around my offices :-)
You don't miss it until you do. When you are trying to join a meeting and your bluetooth headset absolutely refuses to work (and yes, even the fancy Airpods Pro do that occasionally), you wish you had the ability to just plug in an old-fashioned, analog headset. Which you can pull easily, with no fuss, from many devices, including computers and gaming consoles. Quick, no pairing required. No battery issues.
Analog headphones are also very cheap(good if you are not in a rich country), and will always be cheaper than bluetooth headphones, as there is minimal hardware required. You can quickly pick one up even from a shady street seller and you know it will work(longevity might suffer, but again, cheap).
The only problem with the headphone jack is that it is a very old standard. It's big connector, and takes significant real state inside a phone.
The 2020 iPhone SE is much bigger than the 2016 iPhone SE and almost 50 % heavier. This argument seems invalid to me.
These days, I charge my wireless headphones once a week. When I turn them on, they are connected before I have opened the music app. The connection is stable. When I stop playing sound on my phone and start sound on my laptop, they automatically switch to that. Their microphone is perfectly fine for calling people.
But I have hundreds of dollars invested in good-quality wired headphones, plus wired earbuds, and I want to be able to use those with my phone without needing to re-spend that money. Plus, regardless of quality of the product, I'm occasionally a forgetful human. I've actually run out of juice mid-workout with my wireless set. Instead of not having music for the rest of my workout (I like music!), I simply walked over to my bag, pulled out my wired earbuds, and finished up.
Not having the ability to do that is a deal-breaker for me on a phone, and it's not something that can be fixed by improving the Bluetooth tech. While this is obviously anecdotal, I don't imagine I'm the only person who feels this way.
Why not just swap in a wireless cable?
The dongle is small enough to leave attached to your headphones and costs $9. It would be wasteful to include one with the phone, as most would be unused. Clearly you'd prefer a built-in jack, but you have a cheapish option to add this ability.
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMX62AM/A/lightning-to-35...
After getting an iPhone XS from work - replacing my iPhone 5 - I found that I would actually just leave the adapter on my headset. If I ever used the headset for anything else I would take it off but immediately replug it after being done.
My conclusion is that it's been waaaaay less of an issue that I honestly expected it to be.
Some issues I've noticed:
- My tv (flagship LG OLED) always has trouble connecting to the headphones. I usually have to turn them off and then back on again at least once. Macbook and iPhone rarely have trouble connecting. Connecting on Windows has always worked so far.
- When I'm connected to both my Windows laptop and my phone, in a skype conference on the laptop and get a call on my phone, the skype conference is automatically terminated. FOR ALL PARTICIPANTS. That's insane.
- To make the previous point even worse: except for the ringtone, the audio from incoming calls never even goes to the bluetooth headphones. The audio from outgoing calls does, however. This is all on an iPhone SE.
- Sometimes when I listen to music, or watch a video on a Windows machine, my bluetooth headphones will just pause the playback every couple of seconds. This only happens on Windows.
- If your headphones are connected to multiple devices, you have absolutely zero control over what is happening. You might be listening to music on your phone, but some notification from your computer will interrupt your playback even though the computer is set to silent.
I could go on and on and I've only been using bluetooth headphones for a month. There is a LOT of polish missing here. That being said, this could be a great technology and it's not too far off at the moment. There certainly are some advantages over wired headphones as well.
The one thing about small phones is that you can operate the phone one handed. The iPhone 6-8 and the SE's design is pretty much at the limit that you could operate the phone one handed.
Thats the biggest thing for me.
I got my first iphone when they were around this price. Nowadays I have a hard time spending ~1k on a new phone, so I end up shopping used.
Granted it’s my personal preference to buy the handset outright, I’m happy to see a hardware refresh on a more budget friendly option for a new iphone.
But you're a current user... so clearly you accepted it. And as long as you do (accept it, keep buying phones without headphone jacks) why would anyone change? The message you are sending (in the only way they care about $$$) is that you do in fact accept phones without headphone jacks.
Just reading what you're writing...
There is still no replacement.
My SE broke recently and I had to switch to iPhone 8 (They stopped selling SE by then in India). I am able to manage but the form factor is no where as comfortable as the old SE.
>> Price point is, admittedly, fantastic
True for the developed nations but still on the higher side for India and South East Asia. If they could price it at 299 in India it will sell like hot cakes here but iPhone always misses the bus here in India.
The mean income of the 90th percentile in India in 2004 was about 113 USD a month.[1] In the next 4 years the GDP has increased ~4x. [2]
Now even if we assume (I don't have data from a study on this) the 90th percentile income doubled, it leaves them with 226 USD a month.
I can say from personal experience that is a modest assumption. My own salary has increased 40x in this time period. If you consider my friends (a sample space of 30) whose salary I keep track, the average increase is around 20x.
Now it is very reasonable (as the phone has become a very personal "being") to assume that someone in this income will spend a month of their salary on their phone.
Now that is a market size of 120 million people and increasing.
On a personal note, I run a operations company of ~40 people and their average salary is ~300 USD a month and everyone has a phone that costs more than 200USD.
So I think it's reasonable to assume Apple is still missing the bus.
[1] https://ihds.umd.edu/sites/default/files/publications/pdf-fi...
[2] https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&...
I do, however, agree whole-heartedly about the form factor. The iPhone 5 was the perfect form-factor to me and I miss it terribly.
Why would anyone accept the worst sound quality the market has to offer?
For the price of the AirPods you can get wired ear-buds or over-ears which literally provides you with 10x the sound fidelity and listening experience.
And they all require that good ole’ standards-compliant jack.
When it comes to audio, I’ll only take the best. And the AirPods aren’t even in that competition. Peasant indeed, eh?
Don't forget you can still use the lighting to 3.5mm adapter. It's no longer included free but at least it's available. Cost around $9.
* If you use wired headphones on your phone, a dongle is just a few inches of cable
* Most who use wired headphones accept the quality and comfort of apple earpods that plug into the lightning port
* Most people in general who use their phones for audio use bluetooth.
Note: I am using the metric of average American consumer, not other countries.
Those are observations. My personal opinion is that you cannot get much smaller in display size than the 2020 SE without reducing UI functionality or having a pen. I am not sure 2020 apps would function well for any significant number of users with an iPhone SE 2016 form factor.
Also remember, this may be a good market for them to get into, but Apple is doing this so they can use existing parts and processes. This is not a top down design of a compact phone.
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PS: My personal "Why did you do that" is removing fingerprint. They should have moved it to the back, if they cared about borderless display. Face recognition depends on lighting, and me looking at my phone.
My significant other got some bluetooth for xmas. (A nice bose since she is wildly anti apple, im not totally clear on why) She was into them for about a month.
With cabled audio it is sort of unavoidable to miss that never having to charge, pair, unpair, removing phone pairing history (example rental car retaining contact info), just plugging in is so clean, reliable. Honestly in the case of BT vs 3.5 jack i believe we invented in reverse order.
She has since stopped using the >$100 Bose and prefers a 20 sony earbud where one of the two ear buds is actually totally smashed (i drove over it, sadly. Shes a total catch.
So the missing audio jack is my only barrier to new iphone SE entry. I wonder whether anyone has considered some pcb+3d printing a slim fitting adapter which might extend the length of a phone but then provide the existing port and add a 3.5. In other words Is there any attempt at integrating the usb c Or lightning to 3.5 adapter into a clean little clip on / case thing.
Re rental car Bluetooth cleanup issues https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/blog/2016/08/what-your-phone-te...
And to be clear im not anti bluetooth at all. It just seems to be a not yet rightly set up system for security and convenience, naturally.
Surprised there are people out there feeling this way. Join us here in the year 2020.
Sorry, friend, but this ship has sailed. No point calling unacceptable what is now unavoidable.
However, that’s just an opinion. What’s indisputable is that FaceID enables removal of the Home button, which is also a massive positive in and of itself.
Every iPhone I’ve ever owned that had a Home button ultimately had the first thing to fail be the Home button. Not always a complete failure, but at least a partial failure that would make the phone highly annoying to operate.
Besides the Home button wearing out, it also limits the screen size. A full screen is better in every way. In particular by giving significantly more space for the keyboard to be shown without taking up most of the available vertical space.
And so having a biometric unlock which is (arguably) better is really just 1/3rd of the benefit of FaceID. You get a more durable phone, a phone easier to waterproof, and a more usable phone with a better aspect ratio.
That said, the lack of FaceID on the new SE is extremely disappointing to me. I gather they just couldn’t make the margins work at $399.