This is a really wonderful idea to see. I think it suffers some from the styling and branding of “unwoke” because this is not unwoke, it’s very, very woke - it’s called being a professional.
Ironic, as that is exactly what the unwoke people think about the woke people. They see it as an ideology that you have to "take the knee" to, a ka "follow orders", to be accepted into the community.
I think at either extreme its probably true. I don't spend my time signaling on linked in, but I do like to have a "diverse" team. Things just feel more even when you aren't surrounded by the same types, and there is space in that for white people with right wing views
If you believe you must use your workplace itself as a sounding board for your ideology, you’re doing a lot more to help evil triumph than the people treating a job as a job.
For example, your coworkers are not obligated to share your moral beliefs, convictions, or political opinions of current events. Making a workplace inherently confrontational in regards to these subjective, private opinions is seriously harmful.
I am 100% for your participation in activism, protests, and social reform. Just don’t bring it to work.
If you think such an attitude is somehow tacitly entrenching the status quo, you need to step back and consider that you, not the other person keeping politics out of work, are being bigoted and narrow-minded towards them, not the other way around.
There are people in my current workplace demanding that we stop using the term Healthcheck as they perceive it as an affront to disabled people. There is clearly more nuance and ambivalence about the woke crowd than you are admitting.
As dumb as that is, that's an extremely un-dramatic thing to point to as some kind of counterexample to the parent's point, which seems to stand in spite of the people at your workplace.
People get into acrimonious fights over this nonsense and end up fired (usually the person defending sane reasonableness, not the person demanding crazy, meaningless concessions over everything).
It’s not undramatic at all, it’s exactly the kind of counter example to be most worried about.
I know it's tired to invoke the nazis, but think about this: would you work for a company that would offer your dream job, in your dream area of work, with a dream salary, and so on? The only catch would be that you would have to say "hail Hitler" whenever you met one of your coworkers.
It's a small thing. Just two words.
The problem is, they mark you as bowing to nazi ideology.
In the same sense, even seemingly little "wokeness demands" actually are the demand to bow before woke ideology. It's simply unbearable to many people, just as (hopefully) having to say "Hail Hitler" would be unbearable to you.
But I don't think it has much to do with being woke or not. We always had and will always have people that challenge the status quo of society and those that oppose a change.
Change is neither inherently good or bad and not every single initiative, argument and action within an movement is well tough out or helpful.
Event tough better political discourse and less shouting would help, I think in the end it is pretty much unavoidable that at times "the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater"
The difference between caring and being woke is shameless self promotion and groupthink denigration of those who do not self promote. There simply are no humble "woke" people, all "woke" are bullies.
Please do not take HN threads further into ideological flamewar. This level of discussion is below the minimum bar here, even when arguing about a topic like this.
I think they removed that before going on their woke crusade, because they figured it is actually too vague. Different people consider different things evil.
But for individuals, I think it is still an OK choice to make to not work for companies they personally consider evil.
The woke openly embrace evil and fascist tactics like censorship and book burning. Woke means to be an uninformed idiot while pretending to be a do-gooder.
If your post was not intended to be an example of the harm of "woke" it accidentally is serving as one. Blind accusations of racism is one of the main things people are done with.
and here are the downvotes, further nailing in the example. Downvote people out of the community for making rational statements and then argue that woke does no harm.
Why on earth should it not be OK for black people to use the service? And what is so "white" about it? Because black people are supposed to be activists and believe in identity politics? I follow plenty of black people on Twitter who don't belong to that crowd.
Have you ever wondered if is ok black people to use Hacker News? After all, it was created by white people? (I don't even know the skin color of the creators of "Unwoke.hr" - why do you assume they have to be white?).
I’ve wondered if it’s ok for black people to use HN, I’ve also wondered if it’s even ok for black people to be in tech. The term “woke” was coined by black people for the purpose of empowerment and self-liberation, co-opted by white liberals to feel like they’re doing something, and then I see this site, which is supposed to be the antithesis of “woke” corporate culture.
Black people have no choice to interpret this as “we want to keep ignoring a soft genocide”.
No black person would want to be “unwoke” because to us that means enslavement, that’s how I know OP is nonblack.
Ridiculous. The HN crowd is mostly woke. To be honest I don't even feel like convincing you to be in tech or on HN. If you feel like that, maybe just let it be.
And sorry, there definitely is no genocide going on. Have you even looked at population statistics lately?
Edit: why don't you ponder what other people mean by "woke", and try t understand what they are talking about? Personally I don't care about your black history of "woke", I only care abut the present days culture wars.
Addendum: link for the population numbers of Blacks in the USA. Between 2010 and 2018 the percentage of the population that is Black has risen (as in most other years since early last century). No sign of ongoing genocide.
Edit: actually, it looks like you've been banned repeatedly for doing this on HN. That's not cool, so I've banned this account as well. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.
Yeah sorry I am not creating accounts to break the rules.
I simply don't understand you. In my opinion what I wrote was neither a personal attack (I called his argument ridiculous, not him - and I was referring to his notion that it might not be OK for black people to use HN), nor an ideological battle. While the topic is an ideological battleground, which has a real effect on the tech industry, my stance in this particular discussion would be that people simply should be allowed to work without having to be involved in such culture wars (I also did not create that website unwoke.hr, I only posted it to HN). If he wants to be "woke" and do activism and so on, I have nothing against it, at least not in the context of this discussion. I just don't want to be affected by it. I don't want to talk him out of it or anything - so where exactly is your problem?
I don't see the point of you banning my account for a discussion in a thread that has already been flagged. Obviously only people who want it would see the further discussion.
I'm really not sure what you would consider an appropriate discussion of the topic? Obviously it is ideologically charged, but it IS a job board for the tech industry, and it is a subject that affects many who work in tech.
Ironic that you banned me, because I had just been wondering that for all its flaws, at least HN is open to access for everybody. You can create an account in minutes, and there are no profile pics (so less danger of racism, for example). Except apparently not. (Also while it is quick to create accounts, I suppose you have automatic filters in place, so in effect it is not free for everyone. But still - it could have been a refuge from the totalitarian social networks).
"Ridiculous. To be honest I don't even feel like convincing you. If you feel like that maybe just let it be. And sorry, there definitely is no. Have you even? Why don't you? Try to understand? Personally I don't care about your."
That is dripping with internet snark and hostility and certainly crosses into personal attack. Also, the racebaiting aspect of what you posted is unwelcome here.
I banned your account for a repeated pattern, not one thread - as I explained.
Racebaiting? I did not bring up race. Woke ideology also tries to exploit race, but that is just incidental, and irrelevant to the concept of not turning ones job into a platform for activism. I don't care about anybody's race, it's not my fault if others do. To be honest I tried to hold back, because I actually think the person wondering if HN is OK for Black people is racist. But I didn't accuse them of that. I tried to avoid turning it into a discussion about "woke ideology" - the point is should people be allowed to do their job without having to subscribe to a specific ideology and being forced to engage in activism.
If I don't feel like convincing somebody, it is hostile? But I guess if I kept trying to convince somebody, it would be "ideological battles"? And personal feelings - I don't think you "personally care" about everything anybody else wrecks their brain about?
As I said, sorry, I simply don't understand you and I evaluate things differently than you. As such, I don't think I can adhere to your rules in the way you want, as I don't know how.
I also don't agree with your diagnosis of a repeat pattern. Your guessing of my motives, for which you tend to ban me, is completely off base. The only repeat pattern is of you (apparently) misinterpreting what I write.
Even if I think woke culture is BS, why would I want to apply for a job on a site that brands itself with an equally obnoxious rebuttal? What does it say about the demeanor of my potential bosses that this would appeal to them?
"The modern workplace has become a hotpot for unchallenged radical thinking and left wing ideology. Our mission is to advance society based on a culture of enlightenment, beauty, truth and freedom through free market initiatives. First up – unwoking work."
My son works on a job where he says he almost-daily hears people talking negatively about Clinton and Obama (years later!) and praising whatever Trump has recently done, decrying "PC culture" and generally talking like stereotypes. He'd go to HR to ask for relief, but the HR person like making borderline racist jokes about Obama, so no help there.
It seems to me that company would love this site.
To balance things out, this company has treated him very well during the pandemic, taking the mask-wearing and distancing directives seriously and ensuring everybody kept their jobs. It's just a few very-vocal employees politicizing everything, not the company as a whole.
I like this idea, and wonder if something similar exists to oppose other fads like open offices. I would like to think COVID would be enough motivation to oppose open office floor plans, but religious beliefs generally cannot be rationalized away, similar to the woke thing. Really I just want separation of holy church and work.
“unwoke" — rejects a particular viewpoint associated with the left.
“Free-thinking and freedom loving” — while most people probably self-identity that way, currently these are actively used mostly by the right as distinguishing descriptions.
“Not...further a radical agenda” — again, negative on a description used mostly for the left (“reactionary” would be for the right)
Sounds like, despite claiming to be about avoiding ideologues, it is all about a particular side of the left/right ideological conflict.
They literally define themselves as "The job board for conservatives, libertarians and free thinkers." It's just a job board for conservative companies to hire conservative workers; if they're trying to hide it, they're doing a pretty half-assed job.
You might be too young to know this.
But there was a time, not long ago, when bringing politics into the workplace was considered to be a really bad idea because it divides and thus weakens the team and hinders our ability to work together to achieve the common mission of contribution that we presumably all signed up for.
This healthy culture has been largely destroyed by a toxic culture of conflict coming from the indoctrination camps that we used to call universities.
I’m uncertain why we allowed this to happen but I know for sure that most people were happier when we were united as one team seeking to use our creative energy to contribute rather than looking for enemies to attack and destroy.
I hate to break it to them... but this is activism.
I mean, if they wanted to be apolitical they could have, you know, not framed themselves as a job board for "conservatives, libertarians and free thinkers" and named themselves as the antithesis of a political statement.
Instead, they want job-seekers to mass-boycott "woke" companies and "bankrupt the woke."
Anyone participating in this is by definition participating in political activism. Which is fine, and anyone's right, but they shouldn't pretend they "just want to work" and not "be an activist."
BLM and other activists already flagged the post. Wnder how long will it survive to be on the visible list.
One of the best ideas I have seen here on HN lately. Good job who came up with it. I wish you success, but don't get your hopes up in today's political climate.
What I find amusing is that y'all are assuming all employers on this site are conservative owned and as such, they don't want to hire liberal employees.
But I don't think that's the case. I think what they want is to hire people of any political persuasion who want to work. You can be an activist on your own time.
We honestly don't seem to have people who understand how working for an income works.
70 comments
[ 2.5 ms ] story [ 142 ms ] threadSaying you are "unwoke" is simply turning a blind eye to the treatment of people around you.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke
For example, your coworkers are not obligated to share your moral beliefs, convictions, or political opinions of current events. Making a workplace inherently confrontational in regards to these subjective, private opinions is seriously harmful.
I am 100% for your participation in activism, protests, and social reform. Just don’t bring it to work.
If you think such an attitude is somehow tacitly entrenching the status quo, you need to step back and consider that you, not the other person keeping politics out of work, are being bigoted and narrow-minded towards them, not the other way around.
It’s not undramatic at all, it’s exactly the kind of counter example to be most worried about.
It's a small thing. Just two words.
The problem is, they mark you as bowing to nazi ideology.
In the same sense, even seemingly little "wokeness demands" actually are the demand to bow before woke ideology. It's simply unbearable to many people, just as (hopefully) having to say "Hail Hitler" would be unbearable to you.
But I don't think it has much to do with being woke or not. We always had and will always have people that challenge the status quo of society and those that oppose a change.
Change is neither inherently good or bad and not every single initiative, argument and action within an movement is well tough out or helpful.
Event tough better political discourse and less shouting would help, I think in the end it is pretty much unavoidable that at times "the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater"
Careful there Mr. Sith Lord
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
The same quote could be used in reverse. Some of us think this whole woke crap is evil. So yeah, #ImOut.
But for individuals, I think it is still an OK choice to make to not work for companies they personally consider evil.
Have the word 'service' banned and I'll take you a little more seriously [0]. Go ahead, do some evil-triumphing. Don't be shy.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23801493
Or perhaps they do care, but don't think that social or political issues intersect with workplace issues.
Many companies engage in woke politics and activism. How would you go about filtering them out on all the other job boards?
and here are the downvotes, further nailing in the example. Downvote people out of the community for making rational statements and then argue that woke does no harm.
Have you ever wondered if is ok black people to use Hacker News? After all, it was created by white people? (I don't even know the skin color of the creators of "Unwoke.hr" - why do you assume they have to be white?).
Black people have no choice to interpret this as “we want to keep ignoring a soft genocide”.
No black person would want to be “unwoke” because to us that means enslavement, that’s how I know OP is nonblack.
And sorry, there definitely is no genocide going on. Have you even looked at population statistics lately?
Edit: why don't you ponder what other people mean by "woke", and try t understand what they are talking about? Personally I don't care about your black history of "woke", I only care abut the present days culture wars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_d...
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: actually, it looks like you've been banned repeatedly for doing this on HN. That's not cool, so I've banned this account as well. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.
I simply don't understand you. In my opinion what I wrote was neither a personal attack (I called his argument ridiculous, not him - and I was referring to his notion that it might not be OK for black people to use HN), nor an ideological battle. While the topic is an ideological battleground, which has a real effect on the tech industry, my stance in this particular discussion would be that people simply should be allowed to work without having to be involved in such culture wars (I also did not create that website unwoke.hr, I only posted it to HN). If he wants to be "woke" and do activism and so on, I have nothing against it, at least not in the context of this discussion. I just don't want to be affected by it. I don't want to talk him out of it or anything - so where exactly is your problem?
I don't see the point of you banning my account for a discussion in a thread that has already been flagged. Obviously only people who want it would see the further discussion.
I'm really not sure what you would consider an appropriate discussion of the topic? Obviously it is ideologically charged, but it IS a job board for the tech industry, and it is a subject that affects many who work in tech.
Ironic that you banned me, because I had just been wondering that for all its flaws, at least HN is open to access for everybody. You can create an account in minutes, and there are no profile pics (so less danger of racism, for example). Except apparently not. (Also while it is quick to create accounts, I suppose you have automatic filters in place, so in effect it is not free for everyone. But still - it could have been a refuge from the totalitarian social networks).
That is dripping with internet snark and hostility and certainly crosses into personal attack. Also, the racebaiting aspect of what you posted is unwelcome here.
I banned your account for a repeated pattern, not one thread - as I explained.
If I don't feel like convincing somebody, it is hostile? But I guess if I kept trying to convince somebody, it would be "ideological battles"? And personal feelings - I don't think you "personally care" about everything anybody else wrecks their brain about?
As I said, sorry, I simply don't understand you and I evaluate things differently than you. As such, I don't think I can adhere to your rules in the way you want, as I don't know how.
I also don't agree with your diagnosis of a repeat pattern. Your guessing of my motives, for which you tend to ban me, is completely off base. The only repeat pattern is of you (apparently) misinterpreting what I write.
The ultimate irony of conservative thought is that even when they hold all levers of government ultimately they are just mad nobody likes them.
Respect is the result of your actions, not a given
"The modern workplace has become a hotpot for unchallenged radical thinking and left wing ideology. Our mission is to advance society based on a culture of enlightenment, beauty, truth and freedom through free market initiatives. First up – unwoking work."
So ... it is for activists then?
It seems to me that company would love this site.
To balance things out, this company has treated him very well during the pandemic, taking the mask-wearing and distancing directives seriously and ensuring everybody kept their jobs. It's just a few very-vocal employees politicizing everything, not the company as a whole.
For example since they fired James Damore, I would never consider a job with Google.
I don't like the activists, but I would tolerate them, if it weren't there nature to meddle and try to make other people bow to their will.
“unwoke" — rejects a particular viewpoint associated with the left.
“Free-thinking and freedom loving” — while most people probably self-identity that way, currently these are actively used mostly by the right as distinguishing descriptions.
“Not...further a radical agenda” — again, negative on a description used mostly for the left (“reactionary” would be for the right)
Sounds like, despite claiming to be about avoiding ideologues, it is all about a particular side of the left/right ideological conflict.
Looks to be about the right level of competency for the market segment...
I mean, if they wanted to be apolitical they could have, you know, not framed themselves as a job board for "conservatives, libertarians and free thinkers" and named themselves as the antithesis of a political statement.
Instead, they want job-seekers to mass-boycott "woke" companies and "bankrupt the woke."
Anyone participating in this is by definition participating in political activism. Which is fine, and anyone's right, but they shouldn't pretend they "just want to work" and not "be an activist."
> It stands to reason that the direct consequences of AA (Affirmative Action) is a culture of mediocrity, incompetence and decadence.
Culture? You're putting the blame on the wrong people.
One of the best ideas I have seen here on HN lately. Good job who came up with it. I wish you success, but don't get your hopes up in today's political climate.
Why must one identify with one of these groups to flag this post? It sounds like you're trying to group your enemies into camps.