They do to some extent, albeit not really in a measurable way. They could improve the battery usage of their apps, optimize power on Android, and make their services less addictive.
Well if they wouldn't be constantly trying to phone home data and use more static technologies they would reduce users footprint. Although you are right they can't really prevent their users to (ab)use its services (especially if they want to preserve privacy).
Network traffic makes sense if you consider that network traffic is active usage - and the routers, switches, infra all need power. Whereas a typical user's CPU sits idle most of the time.
You should get your money back if your sleeping laptop uses 2W. At that rate, a MacBook Pro would drain its battery in only one day. Correctly-working laptops should draw about 100-200mW and their batteries should last for a week or more.
6-10W kinda sucks for an active desktop, much less a sleeping one. My development system while in S0 currently measures 3.04W (of course, ~30W when running hard).
How about the carbon footprint of [insert arbitrary company]'s users while using their services?
It is totally nonsense and doesn't help at all.
Forgiving my own displeasure at google-everything, I think I can at least appreciate that they might not be all evil all the time – perhaps they could even influence people in a positive way?
Also excuse the related tangent and cherry picking, I am not condoning most of China's behaviour, but being big and bad doesn't necessarily mean that they cannot produce positive effects. [0]
I am not talking about Google specifically. It is true for any company, you are right, but I don't think you can claim to be have offset your carbon footprint completely until you account for the global impact of your business on this planet.
To give an extreme example, how would you react if Exxon Mobil were to claim to be carbon-neutral because they offset the footprint of all their datacenters, offices, drilling facilities, and supply chain? I am sure you would call bullshit, as their whole business is about extracting carbon from the earth to put it back in the atmosphere.
I just think it is unfair to claim that you have zero impact on this planet until you really offset it for real.
That would be a fair argument against, say, an oil company claiming its operations (ie distribution) are carbon neutral while ignoring the use to which people put its products. But most tech firms' products encourage users to stay at home on the couch and produce less carbon, if anything. Probably the only Google product that encourages users to produce CO2 is Maps.
Company that doesn’t use fossil fuels claims it doesn’t use fossil fuels.
More nuanced. They purchased carbon credits without providing how much carbon they claim to have produced. I highly doubt the credits they purchased will actually come close to their emissions.
Pretty sure the data centers and offices are counted in the all-time carbon footprint of zero. Your second quote is talking about switching to carbon-free energy, which is different from the carbon offsets referred to by your first quote.
I'm always suspicious about carbon offsets. From what I've seen buying flights for example, the price seems surprisingly low. Either being carbon neutral is not as economy-killing as some say, or the true price is much higher. Does anyone have more expertise on this?
Pricing carbon emissions is tricky, obviously. A recent analysis put the cost of achieving net-zero emissions by 2050 at between $34 and $124/tn[1], depending on when you start the pricing. I was surprised how low these prices are.
Assuming only a small proportion of polluters are offsetting I would expect to pay towards the bottom end of the range. The more expensive offsets need only be considered once we approach net zero.
I always think the carbon offset offering for flights are only for peace of mind. I still have this mental note to look into it. I suspect prices include Value added Tax (around 20% in Europe) and a margin for the airline company. So not much left for a third party. And then I wonder how that is invested as well...
I looked into it a while ago after having my chosen airline tell me it'd cost $2 to offset, which sounds suspiciously cheap, and while I can't remember the exact third-party site I went to a remember their offset calculation being at least 10x greater.
I bet this is something that isn't regulated properly so we have Airlines straight up misleading customers about how much offsetting does cost.
Because so few people are interested in offsets right now, there's a huge amount of "low-hanging fruit" options for cheap things humanity can do to offset carbon emissions. For example, look at some of the projects here: https://www.goldstandard.org/take-action/offset-your-emissio...
Many of them just involve getting very poor people access to clean water (so they don't have to burn hydrocarbons to boil the water) or cleaner-burning cooking gases. Prices are as low as 10-15 USD per tonne of CO2.
If we ever make a serious attempt to decarbonize the entire economy, we will run out of cheap/easy options and be forced to make harder, more expensive tradeoffs.
Yeah, but there is an "initial surge" of lots of additional people before the mortality-rate signal lowers it (maybe 2-3 generations?) And then you're stuck with a lot of people that are now consumers and generating more carbon than if you just told them "No" in the first place and gave them a good quality of life improvement. We're watching that happen right now, we're many generations in and most of the 3rd world is not slowing down their population growth fast enough despite lowered mortality rates.
Way I see it, any help or financial aid to 3rd world countries (with high birth rates) needs to be coupled with comprehensive and mandatory contraceptive, health-information and birth control drives that is overseen by independent 1st world entities such as the WHO with the intent on lowering mortality rates and birth rates. And if these countries' birth rates don't start following a downward trajectory after a short period, then stop giving fancy aid and switch to bare-bones humanitarian aid. Seems way better than "lending" them the money they need and then making them dependent on the 1st world in perpetuity.
All the evidence suggests that if you raise standards of living and give women control of their own fertility, then birth rates drop naturally (and fairly rapidly). Turns out, when given the choice, most women prefer to have one or two children. This trend has been replicated across (all?) developed countries with very different cultures.
There's no reason to believe the kind of coercion you're proposing is necessary, if you could even justify it ethically.
I didn't say mandatory contraceptives, there was a whole sentence you missed the ending of.
"comprehensive and mandatory contraceptive, health-information and birth control drives"
You make it sound like like I'm saying people need to be forced to use contraceptives. Guess the phrasing is not great. Maybe 'program' would have been better? But the mandatory modifier was on the drive/program, not the usage of contraceptives.
It still seems very ethically dubious to me to have a bunch of rich people (with absolutely massive carbon footprints) telling a bunch of poor people they need to get their birth rate down.
If you were serious about a programme like this, you should at least phrase it in terms of carrots, not sticks: if you embrace feminism, educate and empower your female citizens, we'll reward that with increased foreign direct investment.
It's pretty well established that lower mortality leads to less reproduction and lower overall population. When mortar is high, proof reliability over correct with extra "cushion" children.
Wealth is a far larger source of pollution than life.
> Wealth is a far larger source of pollution than life.
It's both. Wealth drives down the birth rate (as does empowerment and higher education of women [1]), but it also drives up the rate of pollution [2]. You need "Clean Wealth" (high quality of life with low or zero CO2 emissions, pollution, etc) if you want lower birth rates (which we do, we're on track to hit 10 billion people by the end of the century) and less pollution.
> Because so few people are interested in offsets right now, there's a huge amount of "low-hanging fruit" options for cheap things humanity can do to offset carbon emissions.
Yeah, that the trick. To put it boldly: What they offer is not sustainable. This means that these green initiatives hide the real price of CO2 or at least give a very wrong impression.
That statement is too bold -- the price of a CO2 offset is not a constant. As the easy methods become exhausted, we'll have to move to more expensive methods, yes. But currently there's still an absolute glut of fairly-cheap CO2 reduction methods that just aren't being done, or wouldn't be done without the offset pricing, so it's still a net benefit to do them.
Well asymptocially it is. And then the real intersting stuff happens, because economy becomes aligned.
> But currently there's still an absolute glut of fairly-cheap CO2 reduction methods that just aren't being done, or wouldn't be done without the offset pricing, so it's still a net benefit to do them.
There also is a net harm if people get the wrong impression of what the real cost of CO2 is.
What is the "real cost" of a loaf of bread? It doesn't make sense to talk of things as if they have an absolute inherent dollar value, as both the cost to produce these things and the relative utility of dollars both change. The asymptotic bound assumes current technology and current dollar values, which are both going to change in the tens of years involved.
Like you can fund an already-built wind turbine plant - the capital is already built, so even without your funding this is going to stay open...
But even if we forget that, the people buying energy from these plants will be buying a 'green megawatt' - so surely that means each megawatt will have been both offset and sold as 'green energy'?
And then to add to that - these power plants are also claimed against national emission reduction targets (at least the one in Indonesia is) and were actually built as part of a government fund - so then it's kind of triple-counting too!
(i.e. well for every green megawatt we sell, the company we sell it to gets to say they have a green megawatt, the offset company gets to say that they offset a megawatt, and the government gets to say it's generated 1 megawatt of green energy! In reality no actual carbon was saved other than the government intervention)
I once thought the same as you, so I did a quick estimation calculation. This is very back-of-the-envelope, so take it with a pinch of salt.
The flight in question was a roughly 1500 km + 1500 km = 3000 km roundtrip. I remember the airline offered to make my flight CO₂-neutral for about €20 or so. ICAO's emissions calculator [1] put my total contributed CO₂ emissions at about 280 kg. An economically very very inefficient baseline for counteracting CO₂ emissions is just extracting it from the air and storing it [2]. This is hard and expensive because the concentrations are so low in the atmosphere in general (away from emissions sources), but even in that case, numbers from pilot projects come out at $94-$232/ton [3]. Taking the optimistic estimate, that would mean my emissions could be undone for as little as roughly $26. Things seem to work out in roughly the right ballpark.
Of course the airline doesn't use direct air capture for this offsetting, but I looked into it and seem to recall the money going to sane projects. Another comment points out some of the much lower-hanging targets for emissions reductions out there, and they are of course much more effective per buck spent than direct air capture: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24469438
Because it would most likely mean forcibly destroying petrol powered cars, which is pretty economy killing as well as vote killing.
Consider: if you don't do that, you're emitting a lot of CO2. You could wait until everyone upgrades to electric cars but it takes several decades for the vehicle fleet to turn over, so even if everyone started buying nothing but electric now, it would take decades to phase out the old vehicles. And they're not all buying electric cars now. So on the kind of timescales that governments are making these "commitments" the only way to stop people driving petrol powered cars, given how useful they are, would be to seize and destroy them.
As for why they're committing to it, well, they still think academic models are accurate for COVID and are acting as if that's true. Climatology is mostly a modelling based discipline. 2+2 = ...
But the details of that phase out are nowhere to be found. Given today's electric car sales and vehicle fleet turnover rates, if they started in 2030 and were serious it would require not only making all ICE cars illegal to buy, but it would also require seizing and destroying cars that were already in existence, to speed up the turnover rate.
Given that electric cars require new factories and supply chains to scale up, the chances of this being achieved by 2030 is minimal. Not only can't the cars be built fast enough short of some Manhattan-style program (very expensive for all but tiny countries), but neither can the factories that build the cars.
And this evades the whole question of people who like or want ICE vehicles for whatever reason.
Yeah, it's like Shell was offering customers to pay one cent extra per liter of fuel to drive in a "CO2 neutral" way. If it really was that cheap to offset carbon emissions, we wouldn't have any climate problem by now, would we.
It seem's super cheap for planting trees. But it is not completely crazy.
If I use the Lufthansa calculator to offset flights I roughly pay 20 Euro per 1000kg CO2 [1]. A litre of petrol produces roughly 2.3kg CO2. So roughly 450 litres produce 1000 kg CO2, meaning Shell can compensate CO2 for a quarter of the price of Lufthansa. It is suspicious, but with economies of scale it might be possible.
For one, yeah, those offsetting companies calculate very generously. E.g. I once looked a bit into this and they make arguments like "we don't consider construction of the airport, because it's already there". The calculations for the offsets are also often calculated very generously, e.g. they often use the same mechanisms as the so-called Clean Development mechanism (which is part of the european emission trading system), which is known to overcalculate savings enormously.
The other thing is they offset things the cheapest way possible. That works as long as there are cheap ways to save carbon. It doesn't scale.
> Either being carbon neutral is not as economy-killing as some say, or the true price is much higher.
I think the distinction you're overlooking is marginal price vs true price. It could easily be the case that reducing carbon on the margins is cheap.
Going from 100% of current levels to 99% may involve giving up some very low value activity. Especially because in most of the world the cost of carbon emissions is zero to begin with. But going from 1% to 0% could be extraordinarily costly, because it involves the highest value usage of carbon.
Another way to think about it is that carbon offsets may be very cheap, because so few people buy them. If the practice became more widespread, either because of social norms or government regulation, then the demand could easily push up the price to where it does become a significant cost.
being carbon neutral is not as economy-killing as some say
I think this is a big part of it. Just look at carbon tax proposals. A commonly suggested initial tax is $40/ton. My family racks up about 4-6 tons of CO2 each year driving. That's $160-240/yr. By comparison, registration is ~$300 and insurance is ~$700.
A large portion of the voting public opposes virtually all regulation & taxes simply on principal. For this cohort, it simply doesn't matter what the math says.
I'm not really stumping for the carbon tax here, it's mostly just a thought experiment on the relative significance of pricing carbon.
I have to add though, while carbon taxes would have challenges to implement, adding a carbon tax to fuel specifically is not hard to measure at all! We know exactly how much carbon is in the fuel. A $40/ton carbon tax means +$0.36 per gallon of gasoline.
P.S. The US federal fuel tax ($0.18) was last increased in 1993, and was not indexed to inflation.
What's really nutty is that if it were a tax and dividend system, the majority of households would actually end up with more money back in their pockets. That this hasn't already been implemented is absolutely maddening.
That's just because introducing a new tax opens a new avenue for taxes to increase in the future. Even if it's not significant now, the infrastructure will be in place to increase taxes later (after all, the first income tax was a measly 3%). Whether it's reasonable to expect this tax to increase significantly is of course a different question entirely, but the visceral gut reaction to yet another tax is somewhat understandable imo.
Now don't get me wrong, I am in favor of carbon taxing as it's probably one of the best tools we have to fight climate change. But the only way something like this is going to see widespread approval is if all of the proceeds are guaranteed to be paid back to the people and not disappear into the ether of government bureaucracy.
The issue is that this price doesn't scale. Let's say that the current price of an offset is $5/ton-of-co2. Let's say that presently all offsets are being put toward replacing inefficient wood-burning stoves in third-world countries with much more efficient electric stoves, because it's the cheapest way to reduce carbon emissions. Right now, only a very small amount of offsets are being purchased (relatively little carbon is being offset); however, if lots of offsets were to be purchased (lots of people trying to offset their emissions) then we would run out of wood-burning stoves to replace with electric stoves and people who sell offsets would have to finance a more expensive type of carbon-reducing project, increasing the per-ton cost of a carbon offset. As demand for offsets rise, that new more expensive project would run out as well, and we would have to move onto increasingly expensive projects and the price of offsets would continue to rise.
In other words, if the whole world were trying to offset its carbon emissions, the price per offset would rise dramatically.
Ahhhh I thought the offsets were "standalone positives" , like planting trees. Indeed if an offset can be helping others reduce, it's definitely a lower cost (and less scalability, as you point out)
Yeah, I had the same experience when I learned about this stuff. It's really interesting; the trick is quality assurance--making sure that the carbon offset you buy actually represents 1 ton of carbon being removed from the atmosphere, or more commonly 1 ton that would have been added to the atmosphere but won't be on account of your offset. As far as I can tell, the difficulty of QA is the only valid criticism of offsets.
The idea is though, once the low hanging fruit of cheap offsetting dries up, causing offsets to become more expensive, the more appealing the price of carbon neutral energy becomes.
Say now the reason people still burn coal is because it's cheap and you can offset it cheaply, once offestting becomes more expensive, you may as well spend the same total amount, but buy green energy instead of coal+an offest.
Absolutely. Carbon offsets are a pretty cool solution, but I really want border-adjusted carbon taxes (border adjustment is a tax on imports from countries without a carbon tax so we don't just ship our carbon emitting work overseas). I favor carbon taxes because they're mandatory and more fool-proof (it's easier to measure carbon emitted than carbon that is not emitted).
This is quite impressive, but it is also somewhat meaningless. I suppose I'd draw an analogy to a cake shop boasting that it had achieved net-no industrial accidents over its existence - a great record, but also not really a particular stretch to achieve.
Carbon emissions aren't about servers. They are about, in order of priority:
* How do we feed people cheaply without fossil fuels (both as fertiliser & for crop transport)?
* How do we extract minerals cheaply (especially aluminium) without fossil fuels?
* How do we maintain the cheap logistics network that gets us stuff without fossil fuels?
The first two are non-negotiable, the 3rd is quite important. If those 3 problems were solved then fossil fuels would just go away quietly. Google isn't involved in any of those things; it is part of the 'these carbon emissions are incidental' category of emissions that we can reasonably get rid of.
But, again, good on them for setting clear goals and achieving them.
At Google at least there's some reasonable support for EV charging at work. The Mountain View office support for this is better than my own (Waterloo) where we have only 4 chargers for the entire office -- located indoors underground right in the office building making them competitive spaces that people use even though they don't need it.
But the infrastructure in California is actually quite impressive, and they were early to the game on that.
But better than making driving less CO2 intensive is to have people not drive at all.
Yes, I agree that the title should be "Google data centers achieves zero carbon footprint", but still it is not zero effort to achieve it. I would imagine data centers to use non trivial power to run.
Wondering if that also applies to Alphabet as a whole or only Google. I find it especially interesting due to everyone screaming "but muh CO2 footprint", every time big ML projects are announced by them (e.g. AlphaGo) that use enormous resources for training.
I wonder (actually I really dont - it is clear that it doesnt) if 0 emission include also creation of silicon resin, PCBs, wiring, electricity,... I am not saying it is nothing, but it is "a tad" spitting into the sea.
The major footprint comes from heavy industry that is creating the materials so google can actually operate and if I would be sarcastic - they actually create a greater need for materials where its production produce large amount of emissions.
I would even claim, that they would do far more if they would stop showing ads. The electricity footprint on world wide scale must be enormous.
I can claim 0 emission for myself except from (sorry, I just had to say it :D), farting and breathing. But once I start to count in how my food was produced, how the goods I am using were produced etc. this is just not true. Anyway as a decades long vegetarian and strictly driven on public transport or bicycle I do my best here.
This is just publicity stunt from google and it doesn't really mean anything.
But looks like it worked. BBC cached it and is doing an article about it.
> How do we feed people cheaply without fossil fuels (both as fertiliser & for crop transport)?
Agriculture (even without fossil fuels) has a far greater impact on the environment than all fossil fuel use combined. Why the focus on fossil fuels for all your points?
> Agriculture (even without fossil fuels) has a far greater impact on the environment than all fossil fuel use combined
Can I get a source for that claim?
A quick Google gives me the following:
> Globally, fossil fuel-based energy is responsible for about 60% of human greenhouse gas emissions, with deforestation at about 18%, and animal agriculture between 14% and 18% (estimates from the World Resources Institute, UN Food and Agriculture Organization, and Pitesky et al. 2009
I did watch this documentary, and while I don't agree with some of the conclusions or outlook, it does serve up some facts I wouldn't have looked into had I not seen it.
According to Cowspiracy, the major source of global warming pollution isn’t fossil fuels like coal, oil, and natural gas, as the world’s scientists are telling us. No, it’s animal agriculture—not just eating cows, but all other kinds of meat, and eggs and milk and fish too. So the principal solution to global warming isn’t renewable energy. It’s for everyone to become a vegan.
Central to Cowspiracy’s conspiracy theory is the supposed “fact” that a 2009 study found that 51% of all greenhouse gases are produced by animal agriculture.
A good deal of the movie is taken up with interviews with people from environmental organizations, such as the Rainforest Action Network, Oceana, and the Natural Resources Defense Council, who don’t seem to accept this “fact,” and therefore must be part of the conspiracy to cover it up. Greenpeace politely declined, twice, to be interviewed, proving that they’re part of the cowspiracy too. ...
Globally, data centers account for 1-2% of the worlds total energy consumption. Any efficiency improvement in such a big piece of total energy consumption is very significant.
Cimate acconting is much like tax accounting. You find a loophole, then magically slush all your profits through it.
I don't want to be too harsh on Google as at the very least they project they care if not more. The sad reality is that once 'compensation' was on the books, this led to the worst ecological whitewashing imaginable.
Right now Europe is being deforested at an unprecedented rate because the timber and coal industry managed to get their extremely polluting wood burning practices declared 'carbon neutral' and 'renewable'. Then they went all in on pro-fines for Eu countries not meeting renewable deadlines, forcing them to allow strip mining of the few forests Europe has left.
In 'renewable' Excel spreadsheets all is dandy. In the real world we are looking at ecological genocide.
I have mixed feelings about this. It’s wonderful that Google is making progress on their emissions. But I wonder if their business model is at all compatible with a 0 carbon world. Their entire raison d’être is to convince people to buy things they don’t need. They even have a very targeted flight purchasing service.
This type of behavior we’ve grown accustomed to—of unbridled consumerism and excess—seems like it’s gotta be dialed back if we’re to make any meaningful progress on greenhouse gas emissions as a planet.
I'm sad that people are down voting this, we should start to be honest about it if we want to find solutions to the problem that the world faces.
Through their ad business model, Google (and others like it, you know them) are enabling commerce at a scale never seen before.
Remove the Internet and the world's economy would collapse..
Quick and dirty search - world GDP has grown 420% since 1970, before computers became mainstream.
How much of that is due to computers, the Internet and advertising, I don't know, but I suspect these are major factors.
Through their reach, these companies could have a huge impact, but they do nothing about it except use renewable energy in their data centers.. too little impact imo.
This story is in reaction to the Amazon TV ad campaign that just launched pledging that Amazon will be carbon-neutral by 2040 and they're "not sure how we'll get there, but we will."
Obviously two tech companies with drastically different carbon footprints, considering Google doesn't own a global multimodal logistics fleet.
What I love about that announcement is that it came right during Christmas shopping season. Hey everybody, we have nothing concrete to announce, but while we have your attention, remember that Prime is a great way to buy holiday gifts for people!
Correct me if I am wrong, but from the blog post, Google is claiming that they have been carbon neutral from 2007. They just took care of offsetting the emissions before 2007. The 2030 aim is to be carbon free. Not sure how it compares to Amazon.
This is a wealth privilege, setting an example others cannot follow unless the whole economy is changed. It does nothing to address the externalization of pollution as a norm of the free market, for which all are complicit. It's just like sending plastic to a poor country and giving them a little cash to make it their problem.
This is like rich countries moving factories to third-world countries where industry emits more CO2. They pretend to be responsible for less and less greenhouse gases even though they consume more physical goods, with larger carbon footprint. Worst, they feel fine flying and buying SUV because their not that dirty compared to people in undeveloped countries whose carbon footprint keeps increasing.
Google's energy consumption to make goods is zero. Achieving similar zero carbon foot print is next to impossible for lower profit margin fertilizer production. ( i.e. third world countries, as a whole, are working at quite less profit margins, and because of that, have trouble achieving similar zero carbon footprint. Ultimately All the profits are moving to west.
No. That would be the case only if essential workers were using their government-issued permit to go to night clubs without mask nor physical distancing, and pretend to not spread germs because others are staying at home.
As far as I can tell the only problem with offsets is that it's difficult to account for. If you buy offsets for 1 ton of carbon, it's difficult to ensure that the offsets represent carbon that would actually be added to the atmosphere if not for that funding. Is your comment just extreme pessimism about the efficacy of the auditors or are you remarking that one can't offset their carbon (i.e., co2 isn't fungible)?
Here's why offsets are bullshit. Imagine that I go and plant trees every weekend, because I like them and because I don't want to see my world burn. I'm planting trees, everyone is happy. One day, someone contact me and say "I like your work! Would you like to receive 50 cents for every next tree you plant? I want to support you. Just print a paper certifying that I'm supporting your work". I can't refuse that offer, right? I'm getting paid to plant trees! My new treelover friend is happy too: he's saving the world, and he can travel all over the world without remorse, since he's offsetting his flights.
Where are the huge Easyjet forests? Planted just so the rich can fly?
I'm sure they have some kind of contract, somewhere, but I can't verify that. And of course any "new" tree can be attached to an offset, that isn't the problem. How can a third-party says that this tree wouldn't have been planted otherwise, when whole world has no choice but go greener/cleaner? All those who make genuine efforts would be stupid not to take the cash (prisoner dilemma). Carbon offsetting is buying time to slow down changes in devastating behaviors.
Are you being willfully obtuse or do you seriously believe the only way (or even the most effective way) to lower carbon emissions is by planting trees?
Right, but (1) there's no evidence to support this, the whole point of offset certification is to prevent this sort of fraud and (2) there are lots of more effective carbon offset initiatives than planting trees, so of course we shouldn't expect to see massive new EasyJet forests.
You have accidentally made a point in favour of paying for planting trees while from the tone of your post the reader is lured towards the conclusion that it's somehow bad.
To be clear, this isn't an indictment against carbon offsets, it's an indictment against fraud, because your hypothetical carbon certifier is committing fraud. Carbon offsets are supposed to represent a decrease in emissions or sequestration that would not otherwise happen without that funding. A proper example would be funding someone to go around $somePoorCountry (where wood fuel is common, highly polluting, and bad for respiratory health) and replacing their wood-burning stoves with electric stoves, and then revisiting that country every few years to make sure those new electric stoves are still in use.
They aren't displacing factories to third world countries. They're displacing dirty power with cleaner power. Obviously this won't be sustainable forever, but it's a good start.
Not necessarily. They are buying renewable power, however, the actually generation that power their data enters come from the grid and includes coal and natural gas. When the wind isn’t blowing and the sun isn’t shining, they are powered by coal, nukes, hydro, and natural gas.
Displacing dirty power with clean power cannot bring your carbon footprint to zero. Your cleanest power cannot not emit. Google may become cleaner but that isn't the point.
Ofcourse it can, you can pull carbon directly out of the atmosphere and have negative emissions. Energy consumption of sequestation coupled with carbon footprint of solar/wind/nuclear works out to be nagative.
The IPCC stipulates negative emissions in the second half of the century.
Lastly, our carbon budget is not zero, if everyone kept to carbon budget of 3 tons of CO2 per person we'd never have climate change to begin with.
At least in europe, both have happened. A meaningful portion of the gains have been from deindustrialization of one kind or another.
This isn't an indictment of all carbon reduction. Most meaningful policies will have reshuffling. There are no perfect moves.
That said, it's important to try and get into the nuance, be skeptical. In this case, the guts are in the "what does carbon offset really mean?"
Any carbon accounting system (tradable credits, carbon taxes, etc.) is abstract. You can achieve "carbon neutral" by buying credits or by actually reducing carbon. FWIW, I think there definitely is a value to DIY as opposed to carbon accounting stuff. IE, powering your own data centre with clean energy is superior to using gas electric and offsetting that with purchased credits.
I've always been bewildered by the west's push to 'de-industrialize' it seems to be a terrible strategy to combat climate change and serves only to enrich corporations while weakening a country's geo-political position. Nations need to be able to produce things or they become dependent on other actors who have a track record of acting in bad faith, see China and Covid 19 PPE shortage as one example.
At least in the context I was speaking to, I don't think it was a "push." Deindustrialization (esp heavy industry) had been happening for a while. Environmental issues were one of the pressures, though that precedes the climate change agenda.
It just happens to be the case that when you look back at carbon reductions, deindustrialization is one of the key contributors. Clean energy too. A lot of europe already had a lot of clean energy though.
But a ton of the "clean" power isn't clean. Solar needs to have standby fossil plants that keep at idle or else you get brownouts. Those high end molten salt solar plans take natural gas to startup. Most "wood chip" plants burn the same fast growing trees used by paper mills.
CO2 is a stupid thing to focus on. There are so many other forms of pollution that are so much worse. Factory cities in China that have lakes of toxic sludge waste. The massive amount of plastic particles in the ocean. Colossal e-waste from electronics only designed to last two years.
Real, meaningful changes that will stop environmental devastation require reduction of consumption. Unless Google finds a way to reduce their data center footprints, the CO2 numbers are most likely just cooked books; displacing CO2 with other environmental disaster.
> Solar needs to have standby fossil plants that keep at idle or else you get brownouts
That's strictly cleaner than running the region on fossil plants only
> Natural gas to startup
That's strictly cleaner than running the region on natural gas only
>CO2 is a stupid thing to focus on. There are so many other forms of pollution that are so much worse. Factory cities in China that have lakes of toxic sludge waste.
Lakes of toxic sludge are bad, but they're a localized problem. Atomspheric CO2 balance threatens to crash the global ecology for everything larger than bacteria. Of the things you've listed, the risk factor for killing everyone is CO2 --> ocean plastic --> e-waste --> toxic sludge lakes.
> We need to consume less things
That'd be cool, but unfortunately, have you met humans? We've been trying the "Consume less things" approach my entire life; it doesn't take. We need the consumption to be more efficient and less environmentally impactful.
Looking in the mirror is enough. How much did you (and me, its nit about you specifically) spent as a student? 1k/month? How much you earn after tax? 5k? So if after 10years of work less than half a million on your account you spent on uneccessary things. (Ok... its all spent for the kids...)
Why the downvote. Seriously, if we believe we need to consume less, it might be a good idea to put it into perspective what that will actually mean for each individual. I am including myself into this as well.
> > Solar needs to have standby fossil plants that keep at idle or else you get brownouts
> That's strictly cleaner than running the region on fossil plants only
True, but from a CO2 and climate standpoint that's strictly dirtier than nuclear. And reducing emissions by enforcing good insulation norms, taxing the hell out of kerosene, etc.
Nuclear, of course, has its own dirty issue in sequestering byproducts (discounting the occasional meltdown, which---thankfully---is still generally a localized problem relative to CO2 emission's global threat, although it's not very localized... Chernobyl threatened much of west Asia and Europe in the worst-case scenario which, thankfully, didn't materialize).
It's a little hard to weigh those costs vs. benefits, since nuclear byproduct sequestration is relatively cheap but the consequences of failure are relatively high (dirty bombs). On the whole, I'd peg the risk factors for solar and wind as lower, but I'd still prefer to see nuclear plants replace fossil fuel plants if other options aren't available.
This is a problem of means. We don't have infinite resources to spend. For instance Germany spent 300 billions euros on wind and solar power since 2000. They decided to stop using nuclear, and are still burning masses of coal, and are still quite far away from clean electricity.
Would they have invested 300 billions in nuclear, Germany would run on 100% CO2 neutral electricity today, with an hefty margin (arguably 200 billions would have been enough).
Then while everybody speaks about electricity, they conveniently forget that it represents only 20 to 25% of all of our energy needs. The remaining 75-80% for industry, agriculture and transports are almost 100% fossil-fueled...
I understand your argument, but honestly, as someone living in a heavily polluted area, I couldn't care less about the CO₂ problem. When you have the immediate concern of people dying 15 years earlier than they might have, when your throat burns 300 days in a year, and you often can't see much farther than 400 meters, I would be very happy if we could just switch everything coal powered to natural gas.
I actually help run a solar farm part time. Most of my work is to use a petrol powered snipper to cut all the weeds that are growing around it, and I wonder if cutting down trees to make way for solar lots is really the future? It's quite a big block of land that could be a forest or a park.
Also, the thing is that panels expire after 20 years, so new ones will need to be manufactured and the process to make them and mine the materials to make them is not exactly clean I guess..
if not for the problem of mitigating sand erosion, deserts seem well-suited for solar farms. I believe the statistic is that all the necessary power to power double humanity's electric consumption could be generated from a tiny patch of the Sahara---big enough to be seen from space, but tiny in the grand scheme of things (1)
(1) This is, of course, the foolish way to go about it, since distribution costs would be enormous and that kind of centralization is dangerous for a robust system. But it's a fun thought experiment to visualize the scale of the problem and the gap between the inefficiency of the modern system and potential improvements.
Hawaii has one of (if the not the) largest solar farms in the world — and they use sheep for weed removal. We definitely should be reforesting land, but land that is already pasture has a lot of potential for regenerative agricultural practices which greatly increase the prairie’s carbon-capture potential. Particularly if animals are incorporated intelligently. One study showed that the panels themselves can actually help improve pasture soil.
Sheep produce methane which is far more harmful per unit mass than co2. I'm guessing sheep (especially plural) are less efficient than a fossil-fuel trimmer (maybe not after accounting for the carbon used to manufacture the trimmer?), but you could probably replace it with an electric trimmer and be even better off. Reasoning about carbon is hard.
It’s definitely tricky to reason about carbon. One potential improvement is the incorporation of seaweed into a ruminant’s diet, which can reduce their emissions by a third. There’s also progress being made on breeding sheep and cows that emit far fewer greenhouse gases. But it’s important not to ignore that the animals themselves play a key role in improving the soil (with proper management), which can lead to the storage of tons of carbon annually.
Battery operated trimmers have got very good. They used to be underpowered, but now they are as powerful (or more) and a lot quieter. I suggest that you ask for a modern battery replacement. Just make sure you get the battery in a backback, the battery is slightly heavier and lasts longer so you don't get as many breaks
Emphasis on a ton — not all. Nuclear basically is. And as of this millennium at the latest it’s been safe. The nuclear deaths in the US add up to a grand total of 0 (zero). That’s better than eg. wind can say — at least one turbine has burst into flame during maintenance, forcing the workers to choose between burning or leaping to death. Google’s Ivanpah solar plant has also killed thousands of birds by burning them so they plummet out of the sky (not to mention the endangered desert tortoises who lose their habitats when land is bulldozed for solar, or human injuries from falling of roofs while installing solar panels).
And of course CO₂ danger is exaggerated, most scientists from the American Meteorological Society or the American Geophysical Union for the Statistical Assessment Service (STATS) don’t believe there will be catastrophic effects of global warming (including from more potent greenhouse gasses like methane) in the next 50-100 years. And deaths from natural disasters are declining.
Both Fukushima and Chernobyl raise serious questions about the safety of nuclear power, unfortunately.
> And of course CO₂ danger is exaggerated, most scientists from the American Meteorological Society or the American Geophysical Union for the Statistical Assessment Service (STATS) don’t believe there will be catastrophic effects of global warming (including from more potent greenhouse gasses like methane) in the next 50-100 years.
Have they looked into what's going on in the west coast of the US right now?
Again, as of the last millenium at the latest. Chernobyl was last millenium. Fukushima was a tsunami. There were 0 (zero) deaths from radiation there (and ironically, perhaps there were deaths from irrational fear of it — from the rushed evacuation — perhaps it would be better named FUDushima). And tsunamis don’t happen in the US.
And while Chernobyl didn't happen in the past 20 years, I think it's naive to consider nuclear power safe when a continent-threatening disaster occurred in the past 40 years. "One massive disaster per generation" makes people justifiably leery. Personally, I think the grand calculus may tilt slightly in nuclear's favor over fossil fuels, but the risk can't be swept under the rug.
> The west coast has had catastrophic human intervention in the natural fire cycle, piling up fuel year after year until it was too big of a hazard for humans to handle
This is a concern, but I think we shouldn't discount that the hottest years recorded in California history of record-keeping have been, with only a couple exceptions, the most recent years (https://www.climatesignals.org/sites/default/files/resources...). The "natural" fire cycle will get further and further from its historical nature as ambient temperatures climb and rainfall diminishes.
> Tsunamis, by themselves, don't contaminate ocean-water with radioactive material to a density high enough to create a 10-km no-fish-zone
OK, fair enough, I think it may be a good idea not to build nuclear reactors in potential direct paths of tsunamis, or at least not on the seashore <20 meters above sea level, when there’s a local fishing industry, to minimize economic risk. But if the fact that the most powerful earthquake ever recorded in Japan, the fourth most powerful earthquake in the recorded history of the world, causing the only nuclear “disaster” to share the same maximum classification as Chernobyl, killed at maximum one person singular, a thousand times less than an average year of rooftop solarhttps://www.nextbigfuture.com/2008/03/deaths-per-twh-for-all... § The safety issues with Rooftop solar installations / http://www.osha.gov/Publications/Construction_Fatalities/Con..., “raise[s] serious questions about the safety of nuclear power,” I don’t know an appropriate adjective to describe the questions raised by one form of solar killing 3 orders of magnitude more yearly.
(Edit: On fires)
Heat may exacerbate fires, but it doesn’t change the fact that you can’t burn what isn’t there, and there simply wouldn’t be anywhere near as much flammable undergrowth, etc. if firefighters didn’t fight to prevent nature from removing it in smaller, safer quantities. The number of deaths from natural disasters relative to population is decreasing and there’s no reason for the west coast to be an exception (other than blaming the weather and ignoring inconvenient facts and logic).
>...Personally, I think the grand calculus may tilt slightly in nuclear's favor over fossil fuels, but the risk can't be swept under the rug.
Slightly?
No one except the Soviet Union said the Chernobyl style plants were reasonable designs. That kind of design would have been illegal to build anywhere else in the world.
The death rate from Fukishima is far less than the death rate from any properly working fossil fuels source (or wind or rooftop solar for that matter). One estimate is that worldwide use of coal causes up to 800,000 deaths a year - this is much worse than all deaths from nuclear, including the bombs that were dropped on Japan!
No one ever promised that there would never be a nuclear accident - that would be unrealistic for any power source. But historically nuclear power has been safer than all the alternatives that were available.
Unfortunately anything at all related to nuclear is covered by the media orders of magnitude more than other power sources so many people have an understandable perception that it is much more dangerous than other sources of power. 200 thousand people had to be evacuated in CA a couple of years ago because of a lack of maintenance on a hydroelectric dam could've let to catastrophic failure. We got lucky that time as the rains stopped just in time, but how much did the media cover that story? How much would they have covered it if 200 thousand were evacuated because of a nuclear power plant?
It is possible there will be some major advances in grid storage that will allow us to stop using natural gas to cover for the intermittent nature of wind and solar. But what if that doesn't pan out? The dangers we are facing in the coming decades are immense. Is your fear of nuclear power so great that if you had to choose, you would prefer the world to suffer through catastrophic climate change rather than use nuclear power?
> Have they looked into what's going on in the west coast of the US right now?
Despite the current fires, wildfires are down and have been for decades. A lot of the current wild fires stem from reducing the number of controlled burns we use to do.
Also there is quite a significant amount of arson:
> CO2 is a stupid thing to focus on. There are so many other forms of pollution that are so much worse. Factory cities in China that have lakes of toxic sludge waste. The massive amount of plastic particles in the ocean. Colossal e-waste from electronics only designed to last two years.
CO2, and other greenhouse gasses, are exactly what we should be focusing on. Sea level rise alone is more urgent than everything else you've mentioned, let alone unpredictable weather changes and their potential for causing war.
> Solar needs to have standby fossil plants that keep at idle or else you get brownouts.
There are lots of known ways to deal with this, including grid scale batteries and demand-response, both of which are now reaching the electricity market.
What we need is the political and cultural shift to support massive investment in these technologies. There will be room for natural gas as a bridge fuel, but coal has no future. And yes, it's not happening fast enough, and no snap of the fingers will do it.
> CO2 is a stupid thing to focus on
Only if you're willing to ignore the clearly visible impacts of global warming amplified destructive events worldwide. The waters are rising and the global warming denial island is getting smaller with every passing year.
> We need to consume less things.
We need to consume less-carbon-intensive things (hyphenation intentional). We can start by consuming longer-lasting things, consuming things whose materials are more readily recyclable, and reducing waste (where no utility is derived from the consumption). But the first step is to reduce the carbon intensity of things we already consume.
I wonder (actually I really dont - it is clear that it doesnt) if 0 emission include also creation of silicon resin, PCBs, wiring, electricity,... And to back up parent claim - where where they produced?
I am not saying it is nothing - surely better than nothing - but it is "a tad" spitting into the sea.
The major footprint comes from heavy industry that is creating the materials so google can actually operate and if I would be sarcastic - they actually create a greater need for materials where its production produce large amount of emissions.
I would even claim, that they would do far more if they would stop showing ads. The electricity footprint on world wide scale must be enormous - not from google serving them but actually reaching destination and browsers processing them - and not all electricity is coming from "green" sources.
I can claim 0 emission for myself except from (sorry, I just had to say it :D), farting and breathing. But once I start to count in how my food was produced, how the goods I am using were produced etc. this is just not true. Anyway as a decades long vegetarian, strictly driven on public transport or bicycle (:D) I do my best here.
This is just publicity stunt from google PR and it doesn't really mean anything.
But looks like it worked. BBC cached it and is doing an article about it.
Your 0 emission statement suffers from exactly the same criticism you're firing at Google. How was your bike built? How was your bus/train built? What's powering your bus/train? Also the assumption that a vegetarian diet is 0 emission is wrong - you're relying on a massive (oil-fueled) production system that emits a lot, to provide you with the food you buy. Sure, it's less than would be necessary if you ate meat but it's certainly not 0 emission.
Edit - I need to read more carefully, OP already went into this, apologies.
Compare: a company dedicated to nothing but planting trees can reduce its carbon emissions extremely quickly, well past the point where they're at net negative carbon emission, even though it probably took gasoline to drive the trees out to the planting site, the laborers eat food, the truck was made in a factory, etc.
Reminder: Tesla is only profitable because it sell carbon tax credits to makes of ICE vehicles so they in turn can produce the less efficient cars which are basically just status symbols.
It's right in the title...CARBON footprint is 0. That said, it's becoming more and more clear that wind/solar are less damaging than coal on a non-carbon basis as well. Nothing we do has zero impact...the goal is to minimize it. The only way to have zero impact is to wipe out the human species (and even then there will be some impact!!).
The very short version is: They calculated the total carbon emission of the company's activity to date, then paid someone to capture that amount of carbon.
There are two subtle points: Google's past is finite, so there is a total amount of carbon that has been emitted. Planting trees etc. doesn't work (forever) against open-ended ongoing activities, but a specific amount of CO₂ is a different matter. It's possible to buy enough land, plant trees on it and keep ownership of the land.
Of course one can discuss how to calculate a company's emissions. I find it quite laudable that they even tried.
They bought carbon offsets which are more focused on preventing / reducing carbon from being generated. It's basically saying "if I stop x amount of carbon from being emitted somewhere in the world, it's as good as -ve carbon on the balance sheet".
so basically company A says it built one solar panel for company B to use.
Company A says it reduced its carbon emission and company B says it reduced also his. So we have reduced emission by a factor of 2 solar panels by using only one? seems smart!
More like Company A buys carbon credits which are invested in a company / NGO who provide replacements for (as an example) 30 year old tractors in the developing world. The polluting vehicles have been removed so therefore there is a reduction in carbon. Since Company A continues to produce carbon the net carbon is now 0.
Paying people up plant trees, or to use carbon-neutral sources of energy that they otherwise wouldn't.
Carbon offsets are currently much cheaper than they really should be, because there's a lot of low-hanging fruit like the latter, but that doesn't mean they're not genuinely causing less CO2 to stay in the atmosphere than otherwise would.
I kid you not:
"The company tells me its offsets so far have focused mainly on capturing natural gas where it's escaping from pig farms and landfill sites."
But at what cost? Alphabet pressures local governments to let them drain aquifers to cool their machines¹, and powers them using vast swaths of bulldozed former habitats of endangered desert tortoises and focused beams of light that literally burn alive thousands of birds:
Workers at a state-of-the-art solar plant in the Mojave Desert have a name for birds that fly through the plant’s concentrated sun rays — “streamers,” for the smoke plume that comes from birds that ignite in midair.
Federal wildlife investigators who visited the BrightSource Energy plant last year and watched as birds burned and fell, reporting an average of one “streamer” every two minutes, are urging California officials to halt the operator’s application to build a still-bigger version.².
"Once built, U.S. government biologists found the plant's superheated mirrors were killing birds. In April, biologists working for the state estimated that 3,500 birds died at Ivanpah in the span of a year, many of them burned alive while flying through a part of the solar installment where air temperatures can reach 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit." — https://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-t...
Why the hell would you even care that much about 3,500 fucking birds? There are FAR better uses for taxpayer money than figuring out how to save a vanishingly small number of them, when we kill them in the billions for dinner anyway.
The plant still seems to be a decent step forward, and nothing ever is going to be perfect. If we're going to go down that road, then we're completely paralyzing ourselves, because no matter your solution, some construction worker will step on a rat, and now we need to go figure out the more expensive solution where no rats have to die.
Why the heck would you care about soda fizz and not about the 2.9 billion wind and solar deaths contributing to the 29% loss of the entire country’s birds? (Or the endangered species being killed, or the human deaths?)
I'm all for nuclear, but I'll also acknowledge that solar is a good step forward, even if it (gasp!) kills birds.
And that 29% claim is very dishonest of you. That's how much the bird population declined overall, since 1950 (!), and says nothing about how many birds are anually killed by solar, at all. (You've updated your post since, to a statement that again basically says nothing.)
This is one of the most intellectually dishonest things I have ever read on Hacker News. There is _no_ evidence presented here that wind and solar are responsible for anything more than a negligible fraction of this species loss.
You’re saying the alternative is doubling the entire world’s coal consumption? First, we’re talking about one company’s energy (and cooling). Second, what about nuclear, etc?
Here's a wild, crazy, dangerous idea for discussion: how about we start curtailing globalism, and encourage people to live less carbon intensive lives by building economies based around what's available nearby?
I like that idea, and it is legitimately how I am trying to live my life, but -
The problem with that is - it requires people to either migrate away from areas that are not great at producing food without massive resource investment (or bringing it in from somewhere else), or to splinter basic things like hygiene and nutrition based on region.
For example - for the last 5 years my family has exclusively eaten locally. Either something we can produce from seed/start locally, animals harvested at our own farm (or hunted), or other items purchased from hyper-local areas (we defined this as within a comfortable bike ride from our home).
We immediately noticed that we would need vitamin supplements to make up for the lack of certain nutrients. For example - vitamin C is in short supply in the food profile in our part of the world. We didn't want to drink pine-needle tea, because it's gross, so we had to purchase supplements.
What about the people who have neither the time nor energy to devote to finding local food and/or identifying nutrition gaps in their diets? If it wasn't a hobby of mine (via low-grade prepping), we never would've known until the scurvy set in, or something else. Rickets maybe. Who knows.
Family of 3, on 56 acres. The breakdown is as follows: 10 acres for pasture, 9 acres for vegetable/grain production, 30 acres of timber, 2 acres of pond, 5 acres of grass/brush/fallow ground at any one time.
We could support 9-12 people on this amount of ground, if I had to guess, and if we had to. I like to have a lot of woods/timber for hunting and trapping as a hobby. The gardens produce WAY more than enough for our needs - but storage is an issue. Not everything lends itself to drying, canning, or pickling. So you learn to eat when the food is there and pack on pounds for when it's not. This time of year, I'm 5-10 pounds overweight; in March, right before spring, I'll be well under my regular weight.
Not sure about the long-term effects of that. . . .
We practice steady rotation of crops, and do square foot practices instead of traditional row crops. The time spent is minimal, once it's up and running. I can't even begin to imagine the thousands of hours we spent setting everything up, though. We've lived out there for almost 2 decades now, and are JUST getting to the point where it works.
I strongly suspect there are few large settlements worldwide where it's not possible to grow produce either outdoors or in polytunnels to cater for this need. But if it were the case, we (humanity) could either move the settlements or allow an exception for the missing essentials. It would still drastically reduce freighting overall.
A) We’ve globally lowered poverty to its lowest levels in history through trade. Pretty much every government And populace on earth would be against this policy except the absolute richest blocs (eg. The EU, elements of the USA).
B) Globalism has already been pretty curtailed by populism the past 20 years. But this includes the good parts of globalism, like coordinated carbon reductions.
C) Carbon reduction is necessarily a global coordinated solution - going local does not necessarily reduce carbon emissions, ie. oil rich nations can just locally use and trade their energy and the world isn’t any better off unless there are global treaties for trade and carbon.
D) arguably curtailing globalism would condemn a whole lot of the world into poverty or mass migration due to lack of local resource, which is almost as bad a remedy as the mass migrations that will be required later this century due to carbon emissions.
> mass migrations that will be required later this century due to carbon emissions.
...only if we choose not to do something about controlling fertility. But in the end I strongly suspect we'll all be travelling about a lot less. Which is fine with me. Globalism is all about destroying diversity and culture, which is an awful future.
I mean, entertainment and media is a small part of the global economy dollar-wise even if it has lots of influence, local content laws as protectionism don’t harm a lot. the Japanese (Among others, say China or India) have done a pretty good job of adopting other cultures and various products without losing their uniqueness.
> But the claim to have "offset" all of Google's historical carbon "debt" needs scrutiny.
> The company tells me its offsets so far have focused mainly on capturing natural gas where it's escaping from pig farms and landfill sites. But arguably governments should be ensuring this happens anyway.
Offsets are helpful, but are not the solution. At best, they're a stepping stone.
The only sustainable solution is reduction in usage. I'm not sure how feasible that is, or how to achieve it necessarily, but that's the only sustainable basis to proceed on.
This is actually why I 100% believe we will not be able to change any amount of global warming, and if anything will make it worse as more and more countries become industrialized.
The only way to reduce usage is to change our lifestyles. Less consumption, less travel, less of the 'modern conveniences' people in wealthy counties have become accustomed to.
Maybe I'm too cynical, but I genuinely believe humans are incapable, en masse, of that type of sacrifice - the tragedy of the commons and whatnot.
The only time something will change is when everything crashes down around us because of major disruption, famine, migration, and other life-altering events. Only then will we change, but not by choice - only because we will have exhausted all other options to keep our soft lives the same.
In our situation, optimism is a moral duty. I understand the cynical attitude, because I have it at times. But I also think we can't just say there's nothing to do. I'm afraid that would strengthen the tendency of many people to downplay what's happening, and ignore the truth. Even in the face of disaster, I want to keep valuing truth, and I want to be surrounded by people who value truth.
Google's carbon footprint is still positive, but their net greenhouse gas footprint is negative now, according to some particular accounting scheme which posits that 1 ton of methane is equivalent to 34 tons of carbon dioxide.
Carbon dioxide and methane are not equal, and arguably not even equivalent, since methane's impact is short term compared to that of carbon dioxide. That's why the equivalence ratio depends on the time horizon chosen. (100 years is customary, but if Google assumed 20 years, that makes the numbers balance even more cheaply.) So if the headline said "greenhouse gas footprint", it would be technically correct, but misleading. The way it's written, it's a lie.
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[ 4.7 ms ] story [ 292 ms ] threadEven a laptop in sleep mode uses ~2W, and a desktop - 6-10W. Average wifi router uses constant 6W if I'm not mistaken.
6-10W kinda sucks for an active desktop, much less a sleeping one. My development system while in S0 currently measures 3.04W (of course, ~30W when running hard).
It is totally nonsense and doesn't help at all.
Forgiving my own displeasure at google-everything, I think I can at least appreciate that they might not be all evil all the time – perhaps they could even influence people in a positive way?
Also excuse the related tangent and cherry picking, I am not condoning most of China's behaviour, but being big and bad doesn't necessarily mean that they cannot produce positive effects. [0]
[0]https://www.wsj.com/ad/article/chinaenergy-powerhouse
To give an extreme example, how would you react if Exxon Mobil were to claim to be carbon-neutral because they offset the footprint of all their datacenters, offices, drilling facilities, and supply chain? I am sure you would call bullshit, as their whole business is about extracting carbon from the earth to put it back in the atmosphere.
I just think it is unfair to claim that you have zero impact on this planet until you really offset it for real.
Google should include the cost of user computers running JavaScript.
Company that doesn’t use fossil fuels claims it doesn’t use fossil fuels.
More nuanced. They purchased carbon credits without providing how much carbon they claim to have produced. I highly doubt the credits they purchased will actually come close to their emissions.
Currently via offsets above; in the future via carbon-free energy.
I agree. It sounds better than it actually is, but on the other hand it helps mop up others’ sloppiness.
Do they include in their carbon footprint their whole energy consumption (from heating to fuel for company cars)?
Do they include other resource consumption from wares and goods, including the production of all the servers they use?
[1] https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/08/new-carbon-price-foc...
I bet this is something that isn't regulated properly so we have Airlines straight up misleading customers about how much offsetting does cost.
Many of them just involve getting very poor people access to clean water (so they don't have to burn hydrocarbons to boil the water) or cleaner-burning cooking gases. Prices are as low as 10-15 USD per tonne of CO2.
If we ever make a serious attempt to decarbonize the entire economy, we will run out of cheap/easy options and be forced to make harder, more expensive tradeoffs.
The poor people by definition are resource strapped and will use any means of energy available, just for different purpose.
On the cynical side: clean water -> less mortality -> more population -> more carbon use to sustain said population.
Way I see it, any help or financial aid to 3rd world countries (with high birth rates) needs to be coupled with comprehensive and mandatory contraceptive, health-information and birth control drives that is overseen by independent 1st world entities such as the WHO with the intent on lowering mortality rates and birth rates. And if these countries' birth rates don't start following a downward trajectory after a short period, then stop giving fancy aid and switch to bare-bones humanitarian aid. Seems way better than "lending" them the money they need and then making them dependent on the 1st world in perpetuity.
Starts to sound a lot like eugenics.
All the evidence suggests that if you raise standards of living and give women control of their own fertility, then birth rates drop naturally (and fairly rapidly). Turns out, when given the choice, most women prefer to have one or two children. This trend has been replicated across (all?) developed countries with very different cultures.
There's no reason to believe the kind of coercion you're proposing is necessary, if you could even justify it ethically.
"comprehensive and mandatory contraceptive, health-information and birth control drives"
You make it sound like like I'm saying people need to be forced to use contraceptives. Guess the phrasing is not great. Maybe 'program' would have been better? But the mandatory modifier was on the drive/program, not the usage of contraceptives.
If you were serious about a programme like this, you should at least phrase it in terms of carrots, not sticks: if you embrace feminism, educate and empower your female citizens, we'll reward that with increased foreign direct investment.
Wealth is a far larger source of pollution than life.
It's both. Wealth drives down the birth rate (as does empowerment and higher education of women [1]), but it also drives up the rate of pollution [2]. You need "Clean Wealth" (high quality of life with low or zero CO2 emissions, pollution, etc) if you want lower birth rates (which we do, we're on track to hit 10 billion people by the end of the century) and less pollution.
[1] https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#what-explains-the-...
[2] https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co2?tab=chart&xScale=li...
Yeah, that the trick. To put it boldly: What they offer is not sustainable. This means that these green initiatives hide the real price of CO2 or at least give a very wrong impression.
Well asymptocially it is. And then the real intersting stuff happens, because economy becomes aligned.
> But currently there's still an absolute glut of fairly-cheap CO2 reduction methods that just aren't being done, or wouldn't be done without the offset pricing, so it's still a net benefit to do them.
There also is a net harm if people get the wrong impression of what the real cost of CO2 is.
Like you can fund an already-built wind turbine plant - the capital is already built, so even without your funding this is going to stay open...
But even if we forget that, the people buying energy from these plants will be buying a 'green megawatt' - so surely that means each megawatt will have been both offset and sold as 'green energy'?
And then to add to that - these power plants are also claimed against national emission reduction targets (at least the one in Indonesia is) and were actually built as part of a government fund - so then it's kind of triple-counting too!
(i.e. well for every green megawatt we sell, the company we sell it to gets to say they have a green megawatt, the offset company gets to say that they offset a megawatt, and the government gets to say it's generated 1 megawatt of green energy! In reality no actual carbon was saved other than the government intervention)
Contraception.
The flight in question was a roughly 1500 km + 1500 km = 3000 km roundtrip. I remember the airline offered to make my flight CO₂-neutral for about €20 or so. ICAO's emissions calculator [1] put my total contributed CO₂ emissions at about 280 kg. An economically very very inefficient baseline for counteracting CO₂ emissions is just extracting it from the air and storing it [2]. This is hard and expensive because the concentrations are so low in the atmosphere in general (away from emissions sources), but even in that case, numbers from pilot projects come out at $94-$232/ton [3]. Taking the optimistic estimate, that would mean my emissions could be undone for as little as roughly $26. Things seem to work out in roughly the right ballpark.
Of course the airline doesn't use direct air capture for this offsetting, but I looked into it and seem to recall the money going to sane projects. Another comment points out some of the much lower-hanging targets for emissions reductions out there, and they are of course much more effective per buck spent than direct air capture: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24469438
[1] https://www.icao.int/environmental-protection/Carbonoffset/P...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_air_capture
[3] https://www.cell.com/joule/fulltext/S2542-4351(18)30225-3
I think you can probably trace that information source back to someone who makes their money pumping CO2 into the atmosphere.
Committed is not the same is doing. Everyone was more "committed" for Kyoto too.
Consider: if you don't do that, you're emitting a lot of CO2. You could wait until everyone upgrades to electric cars but it takes several decades for the vehicle fleet to turn over, so even if everyone started buying nothing but electric now, it would take decades to phase out the old vehicles. And they're not all buying electric cars now. So on the kind of timescales that governments are making these "commitments" the only way to stop people driving petrol powered cars, given how useful they are, would be to seize and destroy them.
As for why they're committing to it, well, they still think academic models are accurate for COVID and are acting as if that's true. Climatology is mostly a modelling based discipline. 2+2 = ...
Given that electric cars require new factories and supply chains to scale up, the chances of this being achieved by 2030 is minimal. Not only can't the cars be built fast enough short of some Manhattan-style program (very expensive for all but tiny countries), but neither can the factories that build the cars.
And this evades the whole question of people who like or want ICE vehicles for whatever reason.
https://nltimes.nl/2019/04/08/shell-charge-customers-extra-c...
[1]https://www.lufthansa.com/am/en/offset-flight [2] https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca/files/oee/pdf/...
For one, yeah, those offsetting companies calculate very generously. E.g. I once looked a bit into this and they make arguments like "we don't consider construction of the airport, because it's already there". The calculations for the offsets are also often calculated very generously, e.g. they often use the same mechanisms as the so-called Clean Development mechanism (which is part of the european emission trading system), which is known to overcalculate savings enormously.
The other thing is they offset things the cheapest way possible. That works as long as there are cheap ways to save carbon. It doesn't scale.
I think the distinction you're overlooking is marginal price vs true price. It could easily be the case that reducing carbon on the margins is cheap.
Going from 100% of current levels to 99% may involve giving up some very low value activity. Especially because in most of the world the cost of carbon emissions is zero to begin with. But going from 1% to 0% could be extraordinarily costly, because it involves the highest value usage of carbon.
Another way to think about it is that carbon offsets may be very cheap, because so few people buy them. If the practice became more widespread, either because of social norms or government regulation, then the demand could easily push up the price to where it does become a significant cost.
I think this is a big part of it. Just look at carbon tax proposals. A commonly suggested initial tax is $40/ton. My family racks up about 4-6 tons of CO2 each year driving. That's $160-240/yr. By comparison, registration is ~$300 and insurance is ~$700.
A large portion of the voting public opposes virtually all regulation & taxes simply on principal. For this cohort, it simply doesn't matter what the math says.
I have to add though, while carbon taxes would have challenges to implement, adding a carbon tax to fuel specifically is not hard to measure at all! We know exactly how much carbon is in the fuel. A $40/ton carbon tax means +$0.36 per gallon of gasoline.
P.S. The US federal fuel tax ($0.18) was last increased in 1993, and was not indexed to inflation.
Now don't get me wrong, I am in favor of carbon taxing as it's probably one of the best tools we have to fight climate change. But the only way something like this is going to see widespread approval is if all of the proceeds are guaranteed to be paid back to the people and not disappear into the ether of government bureaucracy.
In other words, if the whole world were trying to offset its carbon emissions, the price per offset would rise dramatically.
Say now the reason people still burn coal is because it's cheap and you can offset it cheaply, once offestting becomes more expensive, you may as well spend the same total amount, but buy green energy instead of coal+an offest.
Carbon emissions aren't about servers. They are about, in order of priority:
* How do we feed people cheaply without fossil fuels (both as fertiliser & for crop transport)?
* How do we extract minerals cheaply (especially aluminium) without fossil fuels?
* How do we maintain the cheap logistics network that gets us stuff without fossil fuels?
The first two are non-negotiable, the 3rd is quite important. If those 3 problems were solved then fossil fuels would just go away quietly. Google isn't involved in any of those things; it is part of the 'these carbon emissions are incidental' category of emissions that we can reasonably get rid of.
But, again, good on them for setting clear goals and achieving them.
1. Ensure all employees traveling to work had zero emissions
2. The production of energy to power their offices and servers produced zero emissions
3. The sourcing of materials to build and maintain the energy production produced zero emissions
4. The food required to feed the people working for them produced zero emissions
I think 3 and 4 are going to be the hardest for the world to figure out
1 and 2 we have good solutions either solar/ hydro or mass transit or electric cars. But the supporting infrastructure that’s harder maybe?
But the infrastructure in California is actually quite impressive, and they were early to the game on that.
But better than making driving less CO2 intensive is to have people not drive at all.
I'm curious about how you offset an accident to get back down to net no accidents. Can you explain?
I wonder (actually I really dont - it is clear that it doesnt) if 0 emission include also creation of silicon resin, PCBs, wiring, electricity,... I am not saying it is nothing, but it is "a tad" spitting into the sea.
The major footprint comes from heavy industry that is creating the materials so google can actually operate and if I would be sarcastic - they actually create a greater need for materials where its production produce large amount of emissions.
I would even claim, that they would do far more if they would stop showing ads. The electricity footprint on world wide scale must be enormous.
I can claim 0 emission for myself except from (sorry, I just had to say it :D), farting and breathing. But once I start to count in how my food was produced, how the goods I am using were produced etc. this is just not true. Anyway as a decades long vegetarian and strictly driven on public transport or bicycle I do my best here.
This is just publicity stunt from google and it doesn't really mean anything.
But looks like it worked. BBC cached it and is doing an article about it.
Agriculture (even without fossil fuels) has a far greater impact on the environment than all fossil fuel use combined. Why the focus on fossil fuels for all your points?
Can I get a source for that claim?
A quick Google gives me the following:
> Globally, fossil fuel-based energy is responsible for about 60% of human greenhouse gas emissions, with deforestation at about 18%, and animal agriculture between 14% and 18% (estimates from the World Resources Institute, UN Food and Agriculture Organization, and Pitesky et al. 2009
https://www.skepticalscience.com/how-much-meat-contribute-to...
I did watch this documentary, and while I don't agree with some of the conclusions or outlook, it does serve up some facts I wouldn't have looked into had I not seen it.
[0] https://www.cowspiracy.com/infographic
The US EPA says that 24% of global emissions are attributable to all agriculture and land use changes as of 2010:
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse-gas-emiss...
The IPCC's more recent accounting says 23% of global emissions are attributable to all agriculture and land use changes:
https://www.ipcc.ch/2019/08/08/land-is-a-critical-resource_s...
Here's a detailed critical review of Cowspiracy from the Union of Concerned Scientists:
https://blog.ucsusa.org/doug-boucher/cowspiracy-movie-review
According to Cowspiracy, the major source of global warming pollution isn’t fossil fuels like coal, oil, and natural gas, as the world’s scientists are telling us. No, it’s animal agriculture—not just eating cows, but all other kinds of meat, and eggs and milk and fish too. So the principal solution to global warming isn’t renewable energy. It’s for everyone to become a vegan.
Central to Cowspiracy’s conspiracy theory is the supposed “fact” that a 2009 study found that 51% of all greenhouse gases are produced by animal agriculture.
A good deal of the movie is taken up with interviews with people from environmental organizations, such as the Rainforest Action Network, Oceana, and the Natural Resources Defense Council, who don’t seem to accept this “fact,” and therefore must be part of the conspiracy to cover it up. Greenpeace politely declined, twice, to be interviewed, proving that they’re part of the cowspiracy too. ...
I don't want to be too harsh on Google as at the very least they project they care if not more. The sad reality is that once 'compensation' was on the books, this led to the worst ecological whitewashing imaginable.
Right now Europe is being deforested at an unprecedented rate because the timber and coal industry managed to get their extremely polluting wood burning practices declared 'carbon neutral' and 'renewable'. Then they went all in on pro-fines for Eu countries not meeting renewable deadlines, forcing them to allow strip mining of the few forests Europe has left.
In 'renewable' Excel spreadsheets all is dandy. In the real world we are looking at ecological genocide.
This type of behavior we’ve grown accustomed to—of unbridled consumerism and excess—seems like it’s gotta be dialed back if we’re to make any meaningful progress on greenhouse gas emissions as a planet.
Through their ad business model, Google (and others like it, you know them) are enabling commerce at a scale never seen before. Remove the Internet and the world's economy would collapse..
Quick and dirty search - world GDP has grown 420% since 1970, before computers became mainstream.
How much of that is due to computers, the Internet and advertising, I don't know, but I suspect these are major factors.
Through their reach, these companies could have a huge impact, but they do nothing about it except use renewable energy in their data centers.. too little impact imo.
Obviously two tech companies with drastically different carbon footprints, considering Google doesn't own a global multimodal logistics fleet.
This reminds me of Bezos’s announcement that Amazon would be making deliveries by drone by 2018.
disc: Googler.
Disc: Googler.
"I spread germs all over town today but I bought coronavirus offsets so we’re all good". via https://twitter.com/WeiZhangAtmos/status/1245890907511181312
Paying people to stay home so that other people with essential roles can carry on with less chance of spreading covid?
And while the point of your analogy is clear, your neighbor could only travel the world without remorse if they fund a huge number of new trees.
Offsets are not as illogical as you make them sound.
I'd love to read the details.
Here [0], Easyjet pretend to be offsetting 100% carbon emitted during their flights: https://www.easyjet.com/fr/developpement-durable
Where are the huge Easyjet forests? Planted just so the rich can fly?
I'm sure they have some kind of contract, somewhere, but I can't verify that. And of course any "new" tree can be attached to an offset, that isn't the problem. How can a third-party says that this tree wouldn't have been planted otherwise, when whole world has no choice but go greener/cleaner? All those who make genuine efforts would be stupid not to take the cash (prisoner dilemma). Carbon offsetting is buying time to slow down changes in devastating behaviors.
Dear diary,
Today HN taught me that nuclear power comes from atomic bombs.
What a time to be alive.
codetrotter
It still reduces emissions on the whole.
The IPCC stipulates negative emissions in the second half of the century.
Lastly, our carbon budget is not zero, if everyone kept to carbon budget of 3 tons of CO2 per person we'd never have climate change to begin with.
This isn't an indictment of all carbon reduction. Most meaningful policies will have reshuffling. There are no perfect moves.
That said, it's important to try and get into the nuance, be skeptical. In this case, the guts are in the "what does carbon offset really mean?"
Any carbon accounting system (tradable credits, carbon taxes, etc.) is abstract. You can achieve "carbon neutral" by buying credits or by actually reducing carbon. FWIW, I think there definitely is a value to DIY as opposed to carbon accounting stuff. IE, powering your own data centre with clean energy is superior to using gas electric and offsetting that with purchased credits.
It just happens to be the case that when you look back at carbon reductions, deindustrialization is one of the key contributors. Clean energy too. A lot of europe already had a lot of clean energy though.
CO2 is a stupid thing to focus on. There are so many other forms of pollution that are so much worse. Factory cities in China that have lakes of toxic sludge waste. The massive amount of plastic particles in the ocean. Colossal e-waste from electronics only designed to last two years.
Real, meaningful changes that will stop environmental devastation require reduction of consumption. Unless Google finds a way to reduce their data center footprints, the CO2 numbers are most likely just cooked books; displacing CO2 with other environmental disaster.
We need to consume less things.
That's strictly cleaner than running the region on fossil plants only
> Natural gas to startup
That's strictly cleaner than running the region on natural gas only
>CO2 is a stupid thing to focus on. There are so many other forms of pollution that are so much worse. Factory cities in China that have lakes of toxic sludge waste.
Lakes of toxic sludge are bad, but they're a localized problem. Atomspheric CO2 balance threatens to crash the global ecology for everything larger than bacteria. Of the things you've listed, the risk factor for killing everyone is CO2 --> ocean plastic --> e-waste --> toxic sludge lakes.
> We need to consume less things
That'd be cool, but unfortunately, have you met humans? We've been trying the "Consume less things" approach my entire life; it doesn't take. We need the consumption to be more efficient and less environmentally impactful.
Why the downvote. Seriously, if we believe we need to consume less, it might be a good idea to put it into perspective what that will actually mean for each individual. I am including myself into this as well.
> That's strictly cleaner than running the region on fossil plants only
True, but from a CO2 and climate standpoint that's strictly dirtier than nuclear. And reducing emissions by enforcing good insulation norms, taxing the hell out of kerosene, etc.
It's a little hard to weigh those costs vs. benefits, since nuclear byproduct sequestration is relatively cheap but the consequences of failure are relatively high (dirty bombs). On the whole, I'd peg the risk factors for solar and wind as lower, but I'd still prefer to see nuclear plants replace fossil fuel plants if other options aren't available.
Would they have invested 300 billions in nuclear, Germany would run on 100% CO2 neutral electricity today, with an hefty margin (arguably 200 billions would have been enough).
Then while everybody speaks about electricity, they conveniently forget that it represents only 20 to 25% of all of our energy needs. The remaining 75-80% for industry, agriculture and transports are almost 100% fossil-fueled...
Nobody can move away from the consequences of CO2 saturation. There's no second planet to move to.
Also, the thing is that panels expire after 20 years, so new ones will need to be manufactured and the process to make them and mine the materials to make them is not exactly clean I guess..
(1) This is, of course, the foolish way to go about it, since distribution costs would be enormous and that kind of centralization is dangerous for a robust system. But it's a fun thought experiment to visualize the scale of the problem and the gap between the inefficiency of the modern system and potential improvements.
Emphasis on a ton — not all. Nuclear basically is. And as of this millennium at the latest it’s been safe. The nuclear deaths in the US add up to a grand total of 0 (zero). That’s better than eg. wind can say — at least one turbine has burst into flame during maintenance, forcing the workers to choose between burning or leaping to death. Google’s Ivanpah solar plant has also killed thousands of birds by burning them so they plummet out of the sky (not to mention the endangered desert tortoises who lose their habitats when land is bulldozed for solar, or human injuries from falling of roofs while installing solar panels).
And of course CO₂ danger is exaggerated, most scientists from the American Meteorological Society or the American Geophysical Union for the Statistical Assessment Service (STATS) don’t believe there will be catastrophic effects of global warming (including from more potent greenhouse gasses like methane) in the next 50-100 years. And deaths from natural disasters are declining.
> And of course CO₂ danger is exaggerated, most scientists from the American Meteorological Society or the American Geophysical Union for the Statistical Assessment Service (STATS) don’t believe there will be catastrophic effects of global warming (including from more potent greenhouse gasses like methane) in the next 50-100 years.
Have they looked into what's going on in the west coast of the US right now?
The west coast has had catastrophic human intervention in the natural fire cycle, piling up fuel year after year until it was too big of a hazard for humans to handle. https://www.wsj.com/articles/californias-paradise-lost-15420...
Tsunamis, by themselves, don't contaminate ocean-water with radioactive material to a density high enough to create a 10-km no-fish-zone. https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00664/fukushima-fishin...
And while Chernobyl didn't happen in the past 20 years, I think it's naive to consider nuclear power safe when a continent-threatening disaster occurred in the past 40 years. "One massive disaster per generation" makes people justifiably leery. Personally, I think the grand calculus may tilt slightly in nuclear's favor over fossil fuels, but the risk can't be swept under the rug.
> The west coast has had catastrophic human intervention in the natural fire cycle, piling up fuel year after year until it was too big of a hazard for humans to handle
This is a concern, but I think we shouldn't discount that the hottest years recorded in California history of record-keeping have been, with only a couple exceptions, the most recent years (https://www.climatesignals.org/sites/default/files/resources...). The "natural" fire cycle will get further and further from its historical nature as ambient temperatures climb and rainfall diminishes.
OK, fair enough, I think it may be a good idea not to build nuclear reactors in potential direct paths of tsunamis, or at least not on the seashore <20 meters above sea level, when there’s a local fishing industry, to minimize economic risk. But if the fact that the most powerful earthquake ever recorded in Japan, the fourth most powerful earthquake in the recorded history of the world, causing the only nuclear “disaster” to share the same maximum classification as Chernobyl, killed at maximum one person singular, a thousand times less than an average year of rooftop solar https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2008/03/deaths-per-twh-for-all... § The safety issues with Rooftop solar installations / http://www.osha.gov/Publications/Construction_Fatalities/Con..., “raise[s] serious questions about the safety of nuclear power,” I don’t know an appropriate adjective to describe the questions raised by one form of solar killing 3 orders of magnitude more yearly.
(Edit: On fires)
Heat may exacerbate fires, but it doesn’t change the fact that you can’t burn what isn’t there, and there simply wouldn’t be anywhere near as much flammable undergrowth, etc. if firefighters didn’t fight to prevent nature from removing it in smaller, safer quantities. The number of deaths from natural disasters relative to population is decreasing and there’s no reason for the west coast to be an exception (other than blaming the weather and ignoring inconvenient facts and logic).
Slightly?
No one except the Soviet Union said the Chernobyl style plants were reasonable designs. That kind of design would have been illegal to build anywhere else in the world.
The death rate from Fukishima is far less than the death rate from any properly working fossil fuels source (or wind or rooftop solar for that matter). One estimate is that worldwide use of coal causes up to 800,000 deaths a year - this is much worse than all deaths from nuclear, including the bombs that were dropped on Japan!
https://endcoal.org/health/
A NASA estimate is that the use of nuclear power has saved approximately 1.8 million lives in the years 1971-2009:
https://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/kharecha_02/
No one ever promised that there would never be a nuclear accident - that would be unrealistic for any power source. But historically nuclear power has been safer than all the alternatives that were available.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/494425/death-rate-worldw...
https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths-per-twh-by-ener...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2012/06/10/energys-d...
Unfortunately anything at all related to nuclear is covered by the media orders of magnitude more than other power sources so many people have an understandable perception that it is much more dangerous than other sources of power. 200 thousand people had to be evacuated in CA a couple of years ago because of a lack of maintenance on a hydroelectric dam could've let to catastrophic failure. We got lucky that time as the rains stopped just in time, but how much did the media cover that story? How much would they have covered it if 200 thousand were evacuated because of a nuclear power plant?
It is possible there will be some major advances in grid storage that will allow us to stop using natural gas to cover for the intermittent nature of wind and solar. But what if that doesn't pan out? The dangers we are facing in the coming decades are immense. Is your fear of nuclear power so great that if you had to choose, you would prefer the world to suffer through catastrophic climate change rather than use nuclear power?
Despite the current fires, wildfires are down and have been for decades. A lot of the current wild fires stem from reducing the number of controlled burns we use to do.
Also there is quite a significant amount of arson:
https://archive.is/GWLYq, https://archive.is/cFPbd, https://archive.is/xHiFO, https://archive.is/mhKtG, https://archive.is/US23e, https://archive.is/JyfJe, https://archive.is/owMeD, https://archive.is/rl2cm (and there are a ton more)
14 of the 20 worst wildfires have occurred in the past 15 years, and the size of fire season is growing.
https://laist.com/2019/10/28/california-fires-explained-why-...
Didn't, in thirteen years ago, when that survey was conducted.
CO2, and other greenhouse gasses, are exactly what we should be focusing on. Sea level rise alone is more urgent than everything else you've mentioned, let alone unpredictable weather changes and their potential for causing war.
There are lots of known ways to deal with this, including grid scale batteries and demand-response, both of which are now reaching the electricity market.
What we need is the political and cultural shift to support massive investment in these technologies. There will be room for natural gas as a bridge fuel, but coal has no future. And yes, it's not happening fast enough, and no snap of the fingers will do it.
> CO2 is a stupid thing to focus on
Only if you're willing to ignore the clearly visible impacts of global warming amplified destructive events worldwide. The waters are rising and the global warming denial island is getting smaller with every passing year.
> We need to consume less things.
We need to consume less-carbon-intensive things (hyphenation intentional). We can start by consuming longer-lasting things, consuming things whose materials are more readily recyclable, and reducing waste (where no utility is derived from the consumption). But the first step is to reduce the carbon intensity of things we already consume.
I wonder (actually I really dont - it is clear that it doesnt) if 0 emission include also creation of silicon resin, PCBs, wiring, electricity,... And to back up parent claim - where where they produced?
I am not saying it is nothing - surely better than nothing - but it is "a tad" spitting into the sea.
The major footprint comes from heavy industry that is creating the materials so google can actually operate and if I would be sarcastic - they actually create a greater need for materials where its production produce large amount of emissions.
I would even claim, that they would do far more if they would stop showing ads. The electricity footprint on world wide scale must be enormous - not from google serving them but actually reaching destination and browsers processing them - and not all electricity is coming from "green" sources.
I can claim 0 emission for myself except from (sorry, I just had to say it :D), farting and breathing. But once I start to count in how my food was produced, how the goods I am using were produced etc. this is just not true. Anyway as a decades long vegetarian, strictly driven on public transport or bicycle (:D) I do my best here.
This is just publicity stunt from google PR and it doesn't really mean anything.
But looks like it worked. BBC cached it and is doing an article about it.
Edit - I need to read more carefully, OP already went into this, apologies.
> once I start to count in how my food was produced, how the goods I am using were produced etc. this is just not true.
I wasnt clear enough?
Compare: a company dedicated to nothing but planting trees can reduce its carbon emissions extremely quickly, well past the point where they're at net negative carbon emission, even though it probably took gasoline to drive the trees out to the planting site, the laborers eat food, the truck was made in a factory, etc.
Heating, electricity, transport and food are by far the majority of our emissions. Industrial processes are like 15% of uk emissions or so
But I wasn't able to find any articles wrt. that anymore, so it might be wrong or outdated.
Is Google accounting for the environmental destruction that goes into making those solar panels.
I mean there are hundreds of google employees who take the plane everyday and therefore emit carbon, how this carbon emission is removed ?
The very short version is: They calculated the total carbon emission of the company's activity to date, then paid someone to capture that amount of carbon.
There are two subtle points: Google's past is finite, so there is a total amount of carbon that has been emitted. Planting trees etc. doesn't work (forever) against open-ended ongoing activities, but a specific amount of CO₂ is a different matter. It's possible to buy enough land, plant trees on it and keep ownership of the land.
Of course one can discuss how to calculate a company's emissions. I find it quite laudable that they even tried.
Company A says it reduced its carbon emission and company B says it reduced also his. So we have reduced emission by a factor of 2 solar panels by using only one? seems smart!
Carbon offsets are currently much cheaper than they really should be, because there's a lot of low-hanging fruit like the latter, but that doesn't mean they're not genuinely causing less CO2 to stay in the atmosphere than otherwise would.
I kid you not: "The company tells me its offsets so far have focused mainly on capturing natural gas where it's escaping from pig farms and landfill sites."
Otherwise you'd have to look at your OWN emissions, who wants to do that?
Workers at a state-of-the-art solar plant in the Mojave Desert have a name for birds that fly through the plant’s concentrated sun rays — “streamers,” for the smoke plume that comes from birds that ignite in midair.
Federal wildlife investigators who visited the BrightSource Energy plant last year and watched as birds burned and fell, reporting an average of one “streamer” every two minutes, are urging California officials to halt the operator’s application to build a still-bigger version.².
1: https://www.postandcourier.com/news/google-s-controversial-g...
2: https://www.sbsun.com/2014/08/18/emerging-solar-plants-in-mo...
"Once built, U.S. government biologists found the plant's superheated mirrors were killing birds. In April, biologists working for the state estimated that 3,500 birds died at Ivanpah in the span of a year, many of them burned alive while flying through a part of the solar installment where air temperatures can reach 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit." — https://www.wsj.com/articles/high-tech-solar-projects-fail-t...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanpah_Solar_Power_Facility#B...
I'll take those costs.
Why the hell would you even care that much about 3,500 fucking birds? There are FAR better uses for taxpayer money than figuring out how to save a vanishingly small number of them, when we kill them in the billions for dinner anyway.
The plant still seems to be a decent step forward, and nothing ever is going to be perfect. If we're going to go down that road, then we're completely paralyzing ourselves, because no matter your solution, some construction worker will step on a rat, and now we need to go figure out the more expensive solution where no rats have to die.
You're playing an impossible game.
Why the heck would you care about soda fizz and not about the 2.9 billion wind and solar deaths contributing to the 29% loss of the entire country’s birds? (Or the endangered species being killed, or the human deaths?)
https://townhall.com/columnists/katiekieffer/2019/09/23/29-b...
And that 29% claim is very dishonest of you. That's how much the bird population declined overall, since 1950 (!), and says nothing about how many birds are anually killed by solar, at all. (You've updated your post since, to a statement that again basically says nothing.)
It reminds me rather of https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
Your argument is a straw man.
The problem with that is - it requires people to either migrate away from areas that are not great at producing food without massive resource investment (or bringing it in from somewhere else), or to splinter basic things like hygiene and nutrition based on region.
For example - for the last 5 years my family has exclusively eaten locally. Either something we can produce from seed/start locally, animals harvested at our own farm (or hunted), or other items purchased from hyper-local areas (we defined this as within a comfortable bike ride from our home).
We immediately noticed that we would need vitamin supplements to make up for the lack of certain nutrients. For example - vitamin C is in short supply in the food profile in our part of the world. We didn't want to drink pine-needle tea, because it's gross, so we had to purchase supplements.
What about the people who have neither the time nor energy to devote to finding local food and/or identifying nutrition gaps in their diets? If it wasn't a hobby of mine (via low-grade prepping), we never would've known until the scurvy set in, or something else. Rickets maybe. Who knows.
We could support 9-12 people on this amount of ground, if I had to guess, and if we had to. I like to have a lot of woods/timber for hunting and trapping as a hobby. The gardens produce WAY more than enough for our needs - but storage is an issue. Not everything lends itself to drying, canning, or pickling. So you learn to eat when the food is there and pack on pounds for when it's not. This time of year, I'm 5-10 pounds overweight; in March, right before spring, I'll be well under my regular weight.
Not sure about the long-term effects of that. . . .
We practice steady rotation of crops, and do square foot practices instead of traditional row crops. The time spent is minimal, once it's up and running. I can't even begin to imagine the thousands of hours we spent setting everything up, though. We've lived out there for almost 2 decades now, and are JUST getting to the point where it works.
A) We’ve globally lowered poverty to its lowest levels in history through trade. Pretty much every government And populace on earth would be against this policy except the absolute richest blocs (eg. The EU, elements of the USA).
B) Globalism has already been pretty curtailed by populism the past 20 years. But this includes the good parts of globalism, like coordinated carbon reductions.
C) Carbon reduction is necessarily a global coordinated solution - going local does not necessarily reduce carbon emissions, ie. oil rich nations can just locally use and trade their energy and the world isn’t any better off unless there are global treaties for trade and carbon.
D) arguably curtailing globalism would condemn a whole lot of the world into poverty or mass migration due to lack of local resource, which is almost as bad a remedy as the mass migrations that will be required later this century due to carbon emissions.
...only if we choose not to do something about controlling fertility. But in the end I strongly suspect we'll all be travelling about a lot less. Which is fine with me. Globalism is all about destroying diversity and culture, which is an awful future.
I mean, entertainment and media is a small part of the global economy dollar-wise even if it has lots of influence, local content laws as protectionism don’t harm a lot. the Japanese (Among others, say China or India) have done a pretty good job of adopting other cultures and various products without losing their uniqueness.
Travel I think is a short term (2-3 year) pause.
Sure, but the point is that local demand wouldn't be anywhere near the demand of the global market currently
Google, like all large cloud providers, has lately heavily invested in collaborations with the oil industry: https://gizmodo.com/how-google-microsoft-and-big-tech-are-au...
Their whole emission calculation just ignores that factor.
> The company tells me its offsets so far have focused mainly on capturing natural gas where it's escaping from pig farms and landfill sites. But arguably governments should be ensuring this happens anyway.
Go figure.
The only sustainable solution is reduction in usage. I'm not sure how feasible that is, or how to achieve it necessarily, but that's the only sustainable basis to proceed on.
This is actually why I 100% believe we will not be able to change any amount of global warming, and if anything will make it worse as more and more countries become industrialized.
The only way to reduce usage is to change our lifestyles. Less consumption, less travel, less of the 'modern conveniences' people in wealthy counties have become accustomed to.
Maybe I'm too cynical, but I genuinely believe humans are incapable, en masse, of that type of sacrifice - the tragedy of the commons and whatnot.
The only time something will change is when everything crashes down around us because of major disruption, famine, migration, and other life-altering events. Only then will we change, but not by choice - only because we will have exhausted all other options to keep our soft lives the same.
Google's carbon footprint is still positive, but their net greenhouse gas footprint is negative now, according to some particular accounting scheme which posits that 1 ton of methane is equivalent to 34 tons of carbon dioxide.
Carbon dioxide and methane are not equal, and arguably not even equivalent, since methane's impact is short term compared to that of carbon dioxide. That's why the equivalence ratio depends on the time horizon chosen. (100 years is customary, but if Google assumed 20 years, that makes the numbers balance even more cheaply.) So if the headline said "greenhouse gas footprint", it would be technically correct, but misleading. The way it's written, it's a lie.